Can there be to much compression?

[Harleysboss]

My Rem Roller in 50-70 govt is almost finished. It's built on a #5 action. So yesterday I gathered all my loading supplies and set up to load my very first BP cartridges. In my excitement, I picked up the wrong card wad bag. Instead of the .060 veggie wads, I grabbed the .125 hard cards. So my load goes like this. Starline 50-70 brass, CCI Mag Rifle primer, 63 grns weighed out on my digital scale the wrong card (.125) and a home cast 40-1 Lee 450 grn bullet. So as you can imagine it took some compression to get that bullet seated to the proper depth. After I was all done loading 5 rounds, I stepped back and was feeling quite proud of my new loads. As I cleaned up my bench, I began to realize that I had used the .125 card and not the .060. I took measurements through out my loading and after doing the math it seems that I compressed those charges approx. .284. Are these rounds safe to shoot out and "test"? Or have I created a dangerous situation?

[vagrantviking]

Are you compressing the powder with a compression die or using the bullet to press it down to final size?

If you are compressing with the bullet the biggest problem that usually comes up is deforming the bullet, sometimes to the point that it swells so much it won't chamber.

The little bit of extra compression on the powder will not not cause any safety issues in itself.

[Harleysboss]

Sorry I forgot to mention. Yes I have a compression die and use the Lyman 3 die set. I inspected the loaded rounds and could not detect any deformation/bulges. The rounds loaded into the chamber without issue.

[country gent]

Standard goex likes compression and may run there Swiss and Old Ensford run less in compression for me and my rifles. Olde ensforde im usually around .125-.180 on compression. Heavy compression can also swell cases some, though you states the rounds chambered fine so not an issue here. Heavy compression and a low tension seating may grow in time from powder slowly uncompressing.

[Dave T]

As an aside, got any pictures of your 50-70 Rolling Block? I'd love to have one so seeing your's would be living vicariously for a few minutes. (smiley face goes here)

Dave

[Gunlaker]

I'm sure it's fine. I've compressed powder quite a bit more than that, although most times I do a lot less.

Chris.

[Bent Ramrod]

Do your rounds chamber OK? I’ve compressed powder (with compression die) in my .38-55 until the bottom of the shells swole and they resembled .38-56s. A trip back through the FLS die and a check that they fit the chamber, and the boolits were seated and they shot just fine.

My best accuracy loads didn’t need that much compression, but I was covering all the bases starting out.

[Chill Wills]

I shoot BP ammo with zero compression in most of my accurate match loads. In rare cases my accuracy load will have 0.020 - 0.040".
Compression with good powder is incidental to the barrel time you find the accuracy. In my humble opinion, much to much importance is placed on compression. Start load development with zero and work up. ....assuming Swiss powder ...or maybe Olde Eynsford on a good day.
Poor quality powder will never shoot like the good stuff even if you smash it to dust.

[Wayne Smith]

Did they grow in length? If not, shoot and enjoy. If so, reseat, shoot and enjoy!

[country gent]

I have chronographed loads during work up starting at no airspace only very light compression and stepping up 2 grns and the increase in compression. As the loads increase with the extra powder and compression velocities become more consistant, Standard Deviation (SD) and extreme Spreads (ES) drop. And as you go past SD and ES start to rise again. Your loads should be okay to shoot and test.

[Knarley]

The question I have, along with this, is do you judge the powder load by how much it compresses? To lessen compression, one has to lessen the amount of powder. My gun likes a certain amount of powder. I am then told "Oh no, that is too much compression" So I drop the volume of powder to get the "correct" amount of compression, and the gun doesn't shoot as well. So, when asked about how much compression? I tell them "Enough to get the bullet to fit". The target will tell you what's working.....I guess.

[Chill Wills]

The question I have, along with this, is do you judge the powder load by how much it compresses? To lessen compression, one has to lessen the amount of powder. My gun likes a certain amount of powder.

You can reduce the powder charge to the next lowest accuracy node and or change wad thickness keeping the same weight powder charge.

The bullet location is fixed for the most part.
Tools to adjust the load: Powder brand, compression(if much) and wad thickness are the variables.
Using good powder you should fine very accurate loads starting with zero compression with in a few grains. This assumes your other components are fine and you manage the rifle well enough to remove it from the variables. Do not test in switchy conditions. That is a waste of ammo and gives false data.

[ragnar]

Thank you Mike, that’s reassuring. What has been your experience with weighed vs volume measured loads? And drop tube or no drop tube?

[Harleysboss]

Thanks for all the replies. To answer a few questions, My loads all chamber in the rifle. I could find no signs of bulging or case abnormalities. I have yet to shoot them. The rifle is in its final finish phase so no pictures yet. I did drop tube 24" height, Powder was FFG Goex. The big boo boo was the wrong wad. I grabbed a bag of .125 instead of the .060. I compressed the powder very slowly with checking bullet seating with every adjust of the die. I'm slow on the up take I guess and it wasn't until I had all the loads finished that I noticed the thickness of the left over wads. That's what caused my concern and my post. I will shoot them and see what happens. I will for sure be more careful on my next loading session.

[Chill Wills]

What has been your experience with weighed vs volume measured loads?

And drop tube or no drop tube?

Weighed vs measured? That is a tough one. I wish I had all the answers.
If you shoot in Carpenter, you know Travis just kinda scoops, pours and shoots. ...and does well! He always puts a smile on my face.


I would have to say it depends on whether your thrown charges are in the sweet spot or not. I think there is some wiggle room and charges do not need to be exact to the tenth to be very accurate but they do need to be within the window of the accuracy node. For an example this is what I do, I spend a lot of time and effort shooting a load to work out the best (exact) weight of powder to produce the best accuracy. I try to satisfy myself on the correct amount to the half grain of powder. Then, when loading for a match, I throw and weight each charge but do not try to correct ones that are off by a tenth either way. It does not show on the target. If, in the course of throwing charges, I get one that is well outside the range I except, I just dump it back and throw a second one.
This may sound slow but goes along fast.

I put the scale into the motion rotation in a way that weighting powder does not take extra time. Adjusting each of them would, that is why I just dump the offending ones and meter a second one.

I drop tube everything. I have tried not doing it and have not gotten the accuracy I thought I should.

A good scale for the guy that loads thousands of match loads a year is a good investment. Mine is fast, accurate, rarely wanders, and is ON 24-7-365.227526

[Gunlaker]

I do pretty much the same Chills, although for a match I do trickle them up to exact weight. The MVA measure is pretty consistent so I find I'm rarely off by more than +/- 0.3gr across a batch.

I agree completely on the quality powder comments. I'm not sure if I'll ever buy anything but Swiss again.

Regarding compression, I don't usually use a lot, but I have this one load for my .40-65 that actually uses somewhere around 0.3" using Swiss 1.5. It shoots incredibly well and has excellent velocity stats. Mind you, my .40-65's seem to shoot nearly anything well. With the right bullet I suspect that the actual powder charge doesn't matter too much.

Chris.

[GrumpyBear]

Gunlaker would you mind sharing your 40-65 load, I just picked up an 1874 Shiloh in 40-65 and would like to get started loading for it.

Always shortens load development, when you start with a known good load.

Thanks

[Gunlaker]

Gunlaker would you mind sharing your 40-65 load, I just picked up an 1874 Shiloh in 40-65 and would like to get started loading for it.

Always shortens load development, when you start with a known good load.

Thanks

Sure, I have a few that work quite well. I am far away from my notes so I can't give you exact seating depth, but I have the rest in my memory :-). In all of my loads I seat the bullet as far out as possible and still have the breech block close easily. I also anneal cases every firing.

Saeco #740 loads.
1) Starline brass, CCI BR2, 58gr Swiss 1.5 ( this requires a lot of compression, it's likely that several grains less powder will also work well. ), 0.060 LDPE + newsprint wad, Saeco #740 cast in 20:1. DGL Lube. This load has shot a number of perfect scores at 300 yards.
2) Federal LP Match primer, Rem cases ( mine have shallow primer pockets and only accept pistol primers ). 58gr Goex Express FFFg, 0.060" LDPE + newsprint wad, Saeco #740 cast in 20:1, DGL lube. This requires a lot less compression than the Swiss 1.5 load. It also shoots extremely well, but the Goex powder burns less clean than Swiss so I no longer use it in matches, just practice.

BACO 400409M4 bullet.
1) Starline brass, CCI BR2, 62gr Swiss 1.5. 0.060" LDPE + newsprint wad. BACO 400409M4 in 16:1, DGL lube. It has also shot perfect scores at 300 but groups a touch less good at that distance. Holds elevation extremely well at 600 yards and on the ram line.
2) Rem brass, Federal LP Match primer, 60.6gr OE 1.5. 0.060" LDPE + newsprint wad, BACO 409400M4, DGL lube. I've used this load the most in matches for the last few years. It works very well and has run the turkeys in silhouette, but it is not quite as good as the first load.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Just a clarification. When I said the Saeco load with Swiss has shot a number of perfect scores at 300 I should say that this is in practice. I've yet to shoot a 100 a match at 300. Generally I shoot 97's and 98's due to user error and match pressure :-).

Chris.

[Stevewhr]

That's the Money bullet I sent you Brian and on top of that, Chris kicked my butt easily enough in Worland last May with what was probably that same load!

[GrumpyBear]

Thanks Chris, and Steve.

:happy dance:

[GrumpyBear]

That's the Money bullet I sent you Brian and on top of that, Chris kicked my butt easily enough in Worland last May with what was probably that same load!

Getting set up to load some of those, maybe even today Steve. LOL

[Gunlaker]

Steve this year in Worland was my first using Swiss rather than OE 1.5. It was a weird mixed bag of load experimenting for me. Due to a problem that'll take too much explaining, I ended up shooting an unproven load at 600 there.

I used the Swiss loads with the Saeco #740 bullet for both targets at 200 and for one of the 300 yard stages. Then I used the unproven loads for the second target at 300 and both at 600. That load was actually my regular Swiss 1.5 and the BACO 409400M4, but with a primer switch ( Fed LP Match ) and zero neck tension. I developed the loads with CCI BR2's and 0.001" neck tension, but lucky for me they shot quite well.

We had some trouble reading the wind on one of the 600 yard stages. The load held very excellent vertical but we had a few shots that seemed to need more wind correction than we figured. Or maybe it was too much Makers Mark the night before :-)

Chris.

[GrumpyBear]

So Chris, when you use a news paper wad is it to keep powder from entering the flash hole or between bullets and the other wad ?

[Gunlaker]

I stick them between the LDPE wad and the bullet to attempt to keep the LDPE wad from sticking to the bullet's base. I'm not sure it helps but I think it might.

Chris.

[Stevewhr]

Obviously Kenny corrupted you. I stayed at the hot springs in Thermopolis so my wife could indulge herself. Worked out well enough but I'd enjoy the sitting around telling lies in the evening too. Wait, I did that anyway only my audience wasn't shooters... Seem to recall some interesting winds on the 600.

[Gunlaker]

He might have influenced me a little here and there :-) :-).

I do enjoy hanging out with the fine people in Wyoming in the evening. It's a big part of what makes matches fun I think. Years ago our family did a lot of drag racing. The racing was a lot of fun, but so was hanging out and swapping BS in the evenings. I think these black powder matches are fun in the same kind of way. Lots of really interesting and nice people.

Chris.

[GrumpyBear]

Thanks Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Chris.

You're welcome :-)

Chris.