Load Data

[gpidaho]

Does anyone have a good data source for loading shotshells with nitro cards, fiber and felt wads? This in gauges from 410 to 10 gauge for shot, slug and round ball loads. Gp

[Nobade]

I believe BPI publishes a load data book covering that. Might check with them.

[gpidaho]

Thanks Nobade. That was my first try, BPI has a brochure for stacked card wad loads in their catalog but when you try to order by the parts code in isn't available. So I thought I'd try here. Gp PS I ordered the brass case load data from BPI but it just gives black powder loads not smokeless.

[jdfoxinc]

Look for older Lyman shot shell manuels. Try that company that is reprinting the cartridge manuels.

[gpidaho]

jdfoxinc; I bought Lyman #1 on ebay for that purpose. The problem is the data is very limited and what is available the components in the data are obsolete. You would think with the "Green" movement that someone would have some modern load data. Gp

[megasupermagnum]

I've never seen a whole manual dedicated to such a thing, I've seen some that had a section for them. You can replace fiber wads for plastic wads, and the pressure will be the same or lower. I'm sure there are some exceptions to that. This would be for a nitro card followed by a fiber wad, and any fillers needed. Once you add a plastic gas seal, all bets are off.

[danthman114]

loadbooks has a lot of data...
https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Shotshell-Handbook-5Th-Edition/dp/B00162MK2M
for black powder its really simple.

[gpidaho]

Maybe I should start this off with a simpler example. Does any one have load data for a 12ga. 1 1/8 oz shot load using nitro, fiber and felt wads?

[danthman114]

for tapered or straight hull? ill look when I get home

[gpidaho]

loadbooks has a lot of data...
https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Shotshell-Handbook-5Th-Edition/dp/B00162MK2M
for black powder its really simple.
Thank you. I have that manual. Yes, black powder loads are simple. Using the Short Lane adapter or just the brass head and a primer I load my 20ga with nothing more than BP, sheeps wool and shot. Gp

[gpidaho]

for tapered or straight hull? ill look when I get home Either or. I have a large selection of hulls. Thank you. Gp

[danthman114]

it makes a difference. read up on the hulls because the data will be different. I'm no expert on loading shotshells and still have a lot to learn but I did use my first batch to slay dove after I made them...

[gpidaho]

it makes a difference. read up on the hulls because the data will be different. I'm no expert on loading shotshells and still have a lot to learn but I did use my first batch to slay dove after I made them... Yes, I'm very aware that loads are hull type specific. I'm just saying I have both strait wall and compression formed cases on hand. Glad your dove loads worked well. Did you shoot said doves with black powder loads? Gp

[danthman114]

I have in the past but these were smokeless. this season I used a black powder sxs for a couple of hours but switched over to the 870. too slow to load. ill use it for quail season coming up tho...

[Grmps]

Free download
http://alliantpowder.com/resources/catalog/alliantpowder-reloadersguide/2014_Alliant_Powder_Catalog.pdf

online source

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/shotgun

[gpidaho]

Grmps: I have the hard copy of the alliant powder manual and have the shortcut to the Hodgdon data on my computer screen. They both use plastic wads. Gp

[Hogtamer]

GP, I understand the question, it's just that plastic wads with shotcups are so much more effective for shot loads in consistency, ease of loading and pattern. They are also cheap. That includes various buckshot loads and wad-type slugs. But you know all that. For full bore slugs stacked loads are the way to go for correct height for a good crimp consistent with powder type and slug dimensions. For specifics there are enough of us around who have loaded the big lead projectiles to give you safe starting points for whatever you may try to stuff in a hull. Fewer who have loaded brass hulls. I'm old enough to remember shooting the old Ranger paper shells and watching a truckload of cardboard and cork blow out of the barrel and geting a faceful of residue. The old inverted cardboard overpowder cups were not the best seals. If you gotta stack I believe the x12x plastic overpowder gas seal is the best made and I always use those in 12 ga. We are in the "good ole days" of shot loading now with the plastic, tight fitting components.

[gpidaho]

Hogtamer: Thank you. I know there are knowledgeable shot loaders here at Boolits and I appreciate the help you all have been to me getting me going with the shotgun loads. I'm having a great time with all this. I have a farm acreage I'm welcome to shoot on and actually has a berm worth shooting into. The gal that owns the property is an all around great girl but has an anti plastics thing. Some how she hasn't seemed to worry about the shot and I'm not going to mention it. I think she just doesn't like walking out back and seeing waste plastic on the ground. Some what like strewn cigarette butts. Hey, it's her place. So looking for semi green loads. Gp

[Hogtamer]

Fiochi actually manufactures the old school cardboard stack loads. Interpolating from this:
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/12/13/latest-loads-fiber-wad-loads/
I wouldn't worry about the specific BPI products but you need a 1 1/8 charge of 16 gr 700x (very low pressure load, can go to 18 and still less than 10k psi) in a Fed hull with 209a primer. Hard card over powder, then a 1/2" fiber wad. add shot, prolly need more height, so add more cardboard to raise height to within 7/16" of top of hull. If you don't have the frangible plastic overshot cards from BPI you need some. Great for lots of loads to get a solid crimp. Just have to adjust load to fit. In fact I'll load a couple when I get a chance and be more specific.

[gpidaho]

Fiochi actually manufactures the old school cardboard stack loads. Interpolating from this:
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/12/13/latest-loads-fiber-wad-loads/
I wouldn't worry about the specific BPI products but you need a 1 1/8 charge of 16 gr 700x (very low pressure load, can go to 18 and still less than 10k psi) in a Fed hull with 209a primer. Hard card over powder, then a 1/2" fiber wad. add shot, prolly need more height, so add more cardboard to raise height to within 7/16" of top of hull. If you don't have the frangible plastic overshot cards from BPI you need some. Great for lots of loads to get a solid crimp. Just have to adjust load to fit. In fact I'll load a couple when I get a chance and be more specific. Thanks Hogtamer. Yes, I have the BPI wads, cards and clear plastic over shot cards. Thanks again for a start point. I'll give it a try. I have a good very heavy 12ga. barrel that will make a good test platform. It won't be an accuracy test as the barrel is rifled but it should show sign of over pressure before the load becomes dangerous in that shotgun. I can then move the loads to another shotgun for patterning. Just something else to mess with. Gp

[dsh1106]

GP

I have the Lyman#1 #2 #4 #5 and one from Precision reloading, I can scan and send you anything you want. I also have the Ideal hand books that have shoshell data up to 1969ish when the Lyman #1 came out.

PM me if you what me to dig out some info.

[Hogtamer]

Oh yeah, if you're using used hulls you'll need to open them fully with a tapered rod of some sort, twisting back and forth to soften. I use an old salt water tapered stopper that works. Those components have to go in straight.

[gpidaho]

GP

I have the Lyman#1 #2 #4 #5 and one from Precision reloading, I can scan and send you anything you want. I also have the Ideal hand books that have shoshell data up to 1969ish when the Lyman #1 came out.

PM me if you what me to dig out some info. Thanks Scott. I could use a start point for 12, 20 and 410 loads using nitro, felt and fiber wads. Shot loads but especially any round ball or slug loads. On another note. That C&H loader was relisted after time expired on ebay. I put in an offer of $25 and the gal countered with a $30 request. I bought it. I'll let you know if it's anymore than a junk novelty for my collection. Talk with you later. Gp

[gpidaho]

Oh yeah, if you're using used hulls you'll need to open them fully with a tapered rod of some sort, twisting back and forth to soften. I use an old salt water tapered stopper that works. Those components have to go in straight. I have both a spin doctor and a large hand held hull crimp opener, just a one inch rod seven inches long that a taper starts at four inches and goes to zero in the last three inches. Gp

[megasupermagnum]

I never had any problem getting nitro cards in by pushing them in sideways, then straitening them as I seat them. Fiber wads go through my wad finger same as plastic wads.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

This is all I could find.
227436

[gpidaho]

Thanks Charlie. Looks like I'm pretty much either going to have to wing it or rethink whether it's worth while at all. Gp

[megasupermagnum]

If you have a chronograph, you don't really have to wing it. Loading a regular 1 1/8 oz load should be easy, you probably have to add a tiny bit more powder than with a plastic wad, but not a big deal.

[gpidaho]

If you have a chronograph, you don't really have to wing it. Loading a regular 1 1/8 oz load should be easy, you probably have to add a tiny bit more powder than with a plastic wad, but not a big deal. MSM Yes I do have a chronograph. It's a CED Millennium Also I just picked up a LabRadar. The LabRadar will track slugs and round ball but the manual says that it doesn't work with shot. I've been able to shoot the Support posts on the sky screens a few times with autoloading handguns so I should be able to do serious damage with a shotgun. LOL Gp

[GhostHawk]

ROFLMAO!!!!!

Yeah, I agree, serious damage indeed.

[bikerbeans]

MSM Yes I do have a chronograph. It's a CED Millennium Also I just picked up a LabRadar. The LabRadar will track slugs and round ball but the manual says that it doesn't work with shot. I've been able to shoot the Support posts on the sky screens a few times with autoloading handguns so I should be able to do serious damage with a shotgun. LOL Gp

If you shoot a chrony hit it in the boiler room. Dem varmites are hard to track.

BB

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

The Lyman manual I posted a page of has numerous loads using a plastic gas seal, Remington M-wad or Alcan Air-Wedge, then card/fiber wads. Some include a shotcup. The BPI buckshot manual has several loads using only a gas seal.

[gpidaho]

Thanks again Charlie. I have Lyman #1 shotshell handbook and the BPI buckshot manual should arrive in todays mail. I see on ebay that someone has offered 800 Alcan .165 nitro cards and no bids @ $4. The kicker, as always is the $15 shipping. I'm just going to start low on the powder and build something simple to start. With my heavy single shot barrel I doubt I'll get in too much trouble. Most likely just burn poorly and dirty. A lot of the 410 loads listed in the manuals have very little in the way of a cushion and so they should work well with a card and fiber wad I'll try a few of those in my Rossi single shot. Thanks to all for the suggestions. Gp

[megasupermagnum]

I use a ProChrono Digital, it works fantastic with shotguns. The best thing is to shoot close, maybe 3'-4', and on a cloudy day don't use the sky screens at all. There is always a chance a wad smacks it, but I haven't had it happen yet. I did finally end up shooting mine. With a gun I had no idea where it shot, I aimed a little too low, and smacked the top half pretty hard. From now on, I'll make sure I'm a good 12"-16" above the top, and it still reads good there.

[gpidaho]

I use a ProChrono Digital, it works fantastic with shotguns. The best thing is to shoot close, maybe 3'-4', and on a cloudy day don't use the sky screens at all. There is always a chance a wad smacks it, but I haven't had it happen yet. I did finally end up shooting mine. With a gun I had no idea where it shot, I aimed a little too low, and smacked the top half pretty hard. From now on, I'll make sure I'm a good 12"-16" above the top, and it still reads good there.
With the CED chrono all the important parts are back on the bench and out of the way. Sky screens and sensors are down range and can be bought as replacements. The all in one chronographs wouldn't stand a chance with me, especially with a shotgun. So far I've only shot the support legs that hold the shade screens above. these are pretty easy to make up yourself. Good thing because they aren't hard to hit. Gp

[longbow]

I tried using card wads for slug loads a couple of years ago. Not real successful!

I had a bunch of shotcups I'd cut gas seal off and bags of nitro card wads so thought I'd try some wad slugs using the shotcups on a card wad column. I put two 12 ga. nitro card wads over the powder then a 1/2" hard card wad then slug in shotcup.

The gas leakage was so bad the shotcups were melted and torn from blow by! I am thinking the old card wad loads used considerably more powder to make up for leakage but without pressure testing equipment you'd be hard pressed to reproduce safe loads. You can simply accept the leakage and lower pressure which will certainly be safe but likely significantly lower velocity too.

I was using Blue Dot so slow powder and the effect may not be as bad with faster powder under shot loads. It won't hurt to try and you won't have plastic shotcups to melt so at worst you'll get lower pressure less efficient loads but they should shoot okay.

Longbow

[MOA]

Gp, went through my library and have a older copy of a Hodgdon 4th printing of Basic Loading Data. I'll scan and send you a PM with the file. Most of the powders are obsolete, but the wad column information is helpful I think.

[OnHoPr]

Reloading for Shotgunners, 5th edition Rick Sapp has quite a quite a bit of load data. Many forms of wads components.

@ Hogtamer , if you happen to catch your eye on a Jart from that old lawn game like horseshoes, but were lawn darts tossed at rings about the same distance, put in a drill they work reasonably well for reforming case mouths.

[Hogtamer]

My Acme hull conditioner in living color:227943

[longbow]

Hal:

Do you just push that taper stopper into the hull or spin it as in spin with a drill?

I found I was splitting hulls at crimp folds if I just pushed a tapered plug in. I use a homemade spin doctor now and it doesn't work badly.

Mostly I am trimming most of the old fold crimp off before roll crimping and that works too but I'd rather leave the hulls long. I should be ordering some new skived hulls and that would solve the problem. I have so many old hulls though I have trouble ordering more until they are really ratty. Bad attitude I know!

I do like your colourful hull conditioner.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Just a few twists to soften up...makes it a lot easier to get card wads and fillers in straight. If your hulls are splitting badly old buddy that lot needs to go to the dump! Honestly, if the load allows I prefer star crimping. I seem to get more consistency that way. YMMV pf course.

[longbow]

Yes, I tend to run things till they are past running anymore. I do like roll crimps though. I should load up say 10 of each fold crimp and roll crimp then compare accuracy. While I like the roll crimp, if fold crimp works better then I should go with the flow.

Actually some hulls seem to crack on that fold line pretty easy even when they aren't old and abused but I'm going to say that's likely mostly Federal field hulls which are pretty cheap. My Fiocchi hulls lasted lots longer but they are done now... well... some have become 2 1/2" and even down to 2" hulls for RB loads. I do like to get my use out of things! I made a set of trim tools from 3/4" pipe for 3" down to 2" every 1/4". Cleaned the weld bead out a bit and hulls slide right in. I chucked pipe in the lathe then faced to correct length for each. Slide in hull, grab razor knife, trim to length. Takes seconds and works well for me.

Longbow

[GhostHawk]

I have to admit, I cheat. I bought a boat load of those 9 cent ea Rio primed 12 ga hulls back when they were cheap. I have not shot enough to reload a box, yet.

Roll crimps I mostly use to get a functional loaded shell from a round I screwed up in the first few loadings of a new recipe. Always takes me 2 or 3 to get everything adjusted right.

Empty them out and reload as a slug round with a roll crimp lets me salvage that other wise wasted dime or 2.
LOL yeah right. I'm so tight I squeek.

[gpidaho]

BPI has a load guide for Loading shortened hulls. It has a lot of roll crimped loads for 12, 16 and 20ga. hulls. For the 12s there are loads for 2, 2 1/4 and 2 1/2 inch hulls. The perfect paper work for those of us who just hate giving up on a perfectly good hull. LOL I too am fond of buying the BPI primed hulls especially the opaque ones. I need to order up some three inch 12ga. so I can add the 2 3/4 step in cutting down hulls. Great feeling being a tightwad. Gp

[Brassduck]

227998

[gpidaho]

227998 Thank you Brassduck. Just what I was looking for. Gp

[MOA]

227998

Brassduck,
Do you have anything in that book on 16 gauge by any chance?

[Brassduck]

228030

[Brassduck]

228031

[MOA]

Thank you muchly Brassduck. You da man who's got da plan. Thanks, can never have enough load data for the old ways.

[jdfoxinc]

I down loaded the images and can't get them to focus in a readable size.

[dsh1106]

GP here's some data from 1949 ....

[longbow]

This is good stuff you guys are sharing! Thanks for that!

Longbow

[gpidaho]

jdfoxinc: It isn't that great on my copies either but mine are very readable with a hand held magnifying glass. Then my printer is old and not up to much. Gp

[jdfoxinc]

Ill Try printing it. I was trying to use my phone.

[gpidaho]

First field test today of shells loaded without plastic. I fired three 12ga and three 20ga. loads For the 12's I used two once fired Federal Gold Medal Grands 3 dram 1 1/8oz. originally and one new Fiocchi hull. The 20ga. were Federal ribbed hulls with a fiber base wad, originally 7/8th oz. 2 1/2 dram loads. The 12ga. were loaded with 22.5gr. Red Dot and the 20ga. 15.5gr. of the same. Wad stack on the 12s was .125 nitro card (2) 1/2 fiber wads (1) 1/8th felt wad with 1 1/8th oz. of shot. in the 20s a .125 nitro (2) 1/4 fiber wads and (1) 1/4" felt. with 7/8oz of shot. The felt recoil of the 12s was that of a target load and the 20s a light target load. the 20ga. burned cleaner than the 12s. There were no signs of over pressure at all I could see with the 20s. On the 12s there were no extractor marks on the brass and primers looked normal but about 1/6th of the crimp section of the hull was torn off the Federal hulls, the Fiocchi looked normal. From resent reading this may be too much wadding and it might be better to use one less wad and a shorter hull. What do you all think? Gp

[bikerbeans]

gp,

Did you pattern the loads? Curious about the effective range of you cupless loads.

If you have a slower burning, bulkier powder you could maybe reduce your wad column.

BB

[gpidaho]

gp,

Did you pattern the loads? Curious about the effective range of you cupless loads.

If you have a slower burning, bulkier powder you could maybe reduce your wad column.

BB BB: I only made up five loads each the first try. I'll shoot the next batch at a pattern board and let you know. I did bust a couple of clays thrown from my Trius One Step thrower. I think I'll up the powder charge a bit on the twenty gauge load and try a 2 1/2" hull. The reason I'm using Red Dot is that I'm trying to keep the burn clean. Wish I had some Clays left. Might get some. Gp

[megasupermagnum]

From the very limited testing I have done, you really don't loose much pattern wise to a plastic cup. I am a firm beleiver that the move to a one piece plastic shot cup was 100% a manufacturing move. Less powder, less stocked components, easier to load, may or may not have been cheaper to make. But as for performance, I've found little difference with smaller shot, and actually find fiber wads pattern better with buckshot than a standard plastic wad.

As for the crimps breaking off. I've only had that happen on some high end hunting loads. often with the big steel shot wad. I can't guarantee it will help, but when you crimp there should be very little compression of the wads. If you aren't already, try an overshot card on top of the shot.

[gpidaho]

I loaded up the next try this evening. Once fired Rio hull, 20ga. trimmed to 2 1/2" 16gr Red Dot, .125 nitro, !/4" fiber wad, 7/8ths oz. shot with 2 overshot cards and roll crimped. Made a nice round with a pretty crimp. I'll let you all know how it goes if I still have my typing finger. Gp