Two diameter ppb’s

[flatsguide]

DT, the last few week I have been reading what you and Beltfed (Arnie ?)had to say about two diameter ppb’s. I’m thinking of getting a mold cut and have a question on the larger diameter section, btw it will be for a .45-2.1. The few photos of two diameter bullets I’ve seen it shows the larger diameter section over one caliber long. This would make the larger diameter over .450” in .45 cal. I see two negatives with this long section. One, it takes up too much space in the case, no big deal in the longer cases but in .45-70 it can be a problem for long range. Second, there is less bullet length patched to .450” for bore riding and alignment. Do you think one can get away with the larger diameter “belt” being around .125- .135” long, or even less ? My Browning bpcr has no freebore but just a 45 degree angle from chamber wall to the rifling. I don’t think, even with that short of a belt, one would get stripping and one might be able to use a harder alloy than 16:1 to better hold nose shape.
Thanks for your thoughts and comments.
Regards, Richard

[Don McDowell]

Richard if you can wait just a bit, I can send you some dual diameter bullets that I cast from a Brooks nose pour adjustable mould. I won't have time to cast any up until I get back from the bptr nationals, and most of what I have cast up are being stuffed into cases to make that trip to the nationals.
I also have a dual diameter for the 44's in a Brooks nose pour, and those bullets shoot just as well with the overall length of the bullet at 1.1 inch as it does stretched out a bit . I was pretty shocked when I set the length down to 1.1 inches and it shot so well, that base section is awfully short.

[flatsguide]

Don, thanks! I can wait. Just let me know when you are ready and I’ll send you my address. Btw, how short is that base section on your .44 ?
Good luck at the nationals.
Best, Richard

[Don McDowell]

Richard I'll have to measure that and get back to you but it's pretty dang short.
Thanks, I'll probably need a ton of luck.LOL

[beltfed]

Flatsguide, Indeed, you can go shorter on the "patch to case I.D./freebore" base band:
See attached pics. One is for my 40-72/12 twist- 440gr DDEPP , second is a drg I did for
a shorter base banded 45 cal/18 twist bullet-only in the case 1/8", plus 0.1 freebore length227433227434227435

[beltfed]

OH, Richard,
You mentioned using a harder alloy:
I am using 9+1 ww/lino for all of these.
It works great , and Will Not slump.
beltfed/arnie

[Edward]

OH, Richard,
You mentioned using a harder alloy:
I am using 9+1 ww/lino for all of these.
It works great , and Will Not slump.
beltfed/arnie

I understand not slumping but do you have a guestimate on BHN ,I PP a 45/70 in my 1874 Sharps 18 twist and thought 16-1 was hard but your alloy sounds really hard and I am always looking to improve thanks Ed

[beltfed]

Ed,
My 9+1 ww/lino alloy is about 14+ BHN
beltfed/arnie

[beltfed]

Seems to me 16+1 lead/tin is approaching this hardness.
At least, when I have cast 16+1, the weight is close to my 9+1 ww/lino.
my 9+1 is estimated to be +- :
94.5% lead
4.5% Antimony
1% tin
beltfed/arnie

[Edward]

Ed,
My 9+1 ww/lino alloy is about 14+ BHN
beltfed/arnie

Thanks for the info mine is 11-6 / 11-8 so maybe it"s my Lee tester has a different benchmark ,it is hard seeing hash marks sometimes ! My alloy is 16 parts lead/1 part tin ,again thanks Ed

[flatsguide]

Arnie, thanks so much for the photos and information. Ed, On my 3 year old 16:1 alloy from Roto metals I’m getting .080 for a BHN of 7.9 from the ingots and .076/ BHN 8.7. That’s with a Lee tester.
I have a set of gage pins and made the measurements I need for the two diameters today. I plan on talking with Steve Brooks on Monday to find out what tolerances he can hold while cutting the mold and that will determine the numbers I give him. Will also ask about the difference shrinkage rates between 9:1 or10:1 and 16:1 alloy. Thinking of going to .100” tall on the base diameter and a 45 degree transition from chamber to rifling. I can always bore the base diameter deeper if need be.
Thanks again Arnie, nice looking bullets in the photo but was not able to see the diameter dimensions on the .45 bullets.
Regards, Richard

[beltfed]

Richard,
PM me your direct email address and I will send
you another PIC of the .45 bullet.
beltfed/arnie

[Lead pot]

Rickard it looks like your Lee and Mine agree on the 1/16 certified tin Lead Mix. My Lee shows .080 with this mix.

At the Quigley I picked up around 200 lab of lead containers radiation medicine comes shopped in and I made 3# ingots from it and as is they scale out at .080. When I saw this stuff I figured it had antimony in it to keep it looking fresh poured. Waiting for snow to see how the bullets react shot with out adding anything to it.

[flatsguide]

Arnie received the drawing ...thank you.
Leadpot, nice to know they are in agreement! Interesting is how Lead alloys change hardness over time.

Trying to get uniform powder heights and therefore uniform compression or lack of it I came up with a little gimmick that works well. I have tried drop tube, drop tube with vibration and vibration; with the variation of black powder kernels and variation in case volume my powder column height was all over the map.

I turned an aluminum plug to be a loose fit in the case the length of which is the height of the desired bullet seating plus the wad stack height. The remainder of the plug diameter is larger than the case mouth so the plug can only go so far into the case. I weigh the charge place the funnel over the case and the case sits on the vibrator. I pour the powder in slow then remove the funnel and put the plug into the case and vibrate the charge until it touches the rim and you are left with a uniform powder height. Photos to follow.
Regards, Richard
227684

227685

227686

[Lead pot]

Richard I can't say that the alloy gets softer time or not. Just earlier this spring I ran out of lead casting for the Baker MT and the Quigley and I had a bunch of 1/16 GG bullets that I have not shot since the late 90's and I checked then with Lee and they were still .080. I know that there is a lot of talk that the alloy softens in time but I don't have the high priced lab testers to see it. When a bullet is cast it takes a day to get the alloy stable but I don't see it change using the Lee or Saeco testers.......Kurt

[upnorthwis]

flatsguide. Your aluminum plug is dependent on brass length to get uniform powder height. I made one that fits in to a de-capper die for this operation. Love your idea for the vibrator. My process has the poured powder mounded up over the brass length. Then tap brass on table to be able to insert wad. Then in to press where it gets the uniform height tool.
One of these days, I've got to get beltfed's wad tool back to him.

[beltfed]

upnorthwi"One of these days, I've got to get beltfed's wad toolS back to him".
And get your 0.060 LDPE from me..
OK, just now not desperate to cut more wads for myself, tho I want to cut more
for Steve Klein , the new shooter.
Regards,
beltfed/arnie

[Don McDowell]

Richard you may want to build a powder compression stem, because sometimes the seating depth you determine to be right isn't exactly what the rifle and the bullet will agree with. Seems that the dual diameter bullets like to be seated much like a grease groove, with the transition from the base to the nose being used much like the driving band on a greaser, sometimes seating hard into the lands, sometimes just kissing the lands.

[flatsguide]

Upnorthwis, you are correct all the brass needs to be trimmed to length. Don I used a powder compression stem to seat the wads.
Below is the drawing of the Seitz design bullet that I’m sending to Steve Brooks. Thanks Arnie.
227787
227788
Regards, Richard

Edit, the cast boolit photo editing reduces the photo so print can not be read.

[GregLaROCHE]

I can’t say from experience, because I have just gotten a Lee hardness tester. However, I have heard and read a number of times, that cast boolits get harder with time not softer.


Richard I can't say that the alloy gets softer time or not. Just earlier this spring I ran out of lead casting for the Baker MT and the Quigley and I had a bunch of 1/16 GG bullets that I have not shot since the late 90's and I checked then with Lee and they were still .080. I know that there is a lot of talk that the alloy softens in time but I don't have the high priced lab testers to see it. When a bullet is cast it takes a day to get the alloy stable but I don't see it change using the Lee or Saeco testers.......Kurt

[Huvius]

Gentlemen, this is very interesting.
I am assuming that the need for a dual diameter boolit is for a bore riding projectile in a rifle with a generous chamber, correct?

Sounds like an issue one would encounter using black in a smokeless chamber (if one wanted a bore riding boolit)

My question is, could the dual diameter be accomplished with the patch alone?
I envision a standard patch with an additional tail which wraps the base of the boolit before the rest of the boolit is wrapped by the full width patch thus increasing the diameter of the base over the diameter of the rest of the boolit. The tail sized appropriately for the amount of neck tension and length of insertion of course.
The paper base may just shear off but the full length outer patch may mitigate that - don't know...
I have a 50/110 that I should try this in.

Something like this:
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg312/Huvius/Mobile%20Uploads/EB9D8765-CC81-4298-BF43-63C773BD037E.jpg (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/Huvius/media/Mobile%20Uploads/EB9D8765-CC81-4298-BF43-63C773BD037E.jpg.html)

[Lead pot]

:) I guess I better get more Brooks Tru Bore Mould stock to build my penchion retirement funds :)

[Nobade]

I'm a bit late to this party, but have been shooting the two diameter bullet LynC2 designed and Accurate molds made in my Browning 40-65 with exceptional results. The Browning chamber has quite a long throat to allow bullets to be seated out for powder capacity, and refuses to shoot accurately with a normal PP bore diameter bullet. But this one patches up to .410" for about 3/8 inch, then .400" for the rest. Loads are absolutely easy, 72 grains Ffg, poly wad, enough compression to give the bullet a little room to sit, and it's done. Last weekend we were seeing palm sized groups at 500M on the steel plate, and at 200 it just makes a spot. This is the first bullet like this I have played with, and am now convinced that if your rifle has a chamber with freebore, you want a bullet designed like this one.

[beltfed]

230804
Mike, here is my drg of the 45 cal DDEPP bullet for 18 twist
beltfed/arnie

[beltfed]

Huvius,
I tried the two width, patching idea a while back.
Not good.
Go to a dual diameter bullet such as the drg I just posted for Mike Hearth' request.
beltfed/arnie

[LynC2]

I'm a bit late to this party, but have been shooting the two diameter bullet LynC2 designed and Accurate molds made in my Browning 40-65 with exceptional results. The Browning chamber has quite a long throat to allow bullets to be seated out for powder capacity, and refuses to shoot accurately with a normal PP bore diameter bullet. But this one patches up to .410" for about 3/8 inch, then .400" for the rest. Loads are absolutely easy, 72 grains Ffg, poly wad, enough compression to give the bullet a little room to sit, and it's done. Last weekend we were seeing palm sized groups at 500M on the steel plate, and at 200 it just makes a spot. This is the first bullet like this I have played with, and am now convinced that if your rifle has a chamber with freebore, you want a bullet designed like this one.

In case anyone is interested in trying it.
238201

[rfd]

Originally Posted by Nobade
I'm a bit late to this party, but have been shooting the two diameter bullet LynC2 designed and Accurate molds made in my Browning 40-65 with exceptional results. The Browning chamber has quite a long throat to allow bullets to be seated out for powder capacity, and refuses to shoot accurately with a normal PP bore diameter bullet. But this one patches up to .410" for about 3/8 inch, then .400" for the rest. Loads are absolutely easy, 72 grains Ffg, poly wad, enough compression to give the bullet a little room to sit, and it's done. Last weekend we were seeing palm sized groups at 500M on the steel plate, and at 200 it just makes a spot. This is the first bullet like this I have played with, and am now convinced that if your rifle has a chamber with freebore, you want a bullet designed like this one.


In case anyone is interested in trying it.
238201

interested in this big time as i just got a .40-65 '74 heavy barrel sharps that i have even fired yet (dang winter) but have a gaggle of loaded PPB cartridges to test out using tom's 40-400P slick @ .393" (starline brass, 71 grains swiss 1-1/2f, carton wads, PPB sits in the case mouth 1/10").

how do y'all patch that two diameter 41-400GP? got images, please?

[flatsguide]

I’m glad to learn that your 40-65 is shooting that well for you. I would be interested in your patching technique also as I have a Brooks mold on Arnies DD bullet design for my Browning .45-70.
On another note I’m building a .40-65 on a MVA ‘85 action with a Smith gain twist barrel. I designed the chamber around Starline brass with the chamber neck dia. Only .004” larger than the case neck will be when it is loaded. It will use straight sided PP bullets. My thoughts ran that the DD bullets were a “fix” for the larger chambers that were designed to shoot groove dia. bullets but this may not be true, but in fact the DD bullets may in fact be more accurate than a tight chamber specifically designed for traditional SS PP bullets. Will be interesting to find out.
Guess I need to get casting..
Thanks Richard

[LynC2]

interested in this big time as i just got a .40-65 '74 heavy barrel sharps that i have even fired yet (dang winter) but have a gaggle of loaded PPB cartridges to test out using tom's 40-400P slick @ .393" (starline brass, 71 grains swiss 1-1/2f, carton wads, PPB sits in the case mouth 1/10").

how do y'all patch that two diameter 41-400GP? got images, please?

My personal reply to RFD:
"Good to hear from my fellow Texan. Accurate will make it any diameter you wish and length. I made it for a Browning's chamber which has a pretty long freebore. If I were to design it for a rifle with a short freebore I believe I'd reduce the groove diameter portion to about .125" in length if you want the added powder capacity. I did the tolerance as +-.001 and it was dead nutts on. I figured if it was too big, I'd resize it a bit or use thinner or thicker paper depending upon it. Fortunately it was right on the money with the paper I wanted. Funny thing is I ordered it for a Browning rifle I bought on Gunbroker that I sent back for a ringed chamber and pitted barrel. I wound up ordering a loaded 1885 high wall from C Sharps. Hopefully it won't be much longer so I can develop a load for the Nationals at Raton." Since I haven't loaded any, I'm not sure how Nobade is doing the wrapping, but it seems the Canary Yellow paper would be on the money.

Update: Nobade says he's wrapping them wet. :idea: