To wad or not to wad.

[littlejack]

Fella's:
I'm new to the black powder loading. I've been loading smokless for over 40 years.
Can someone tell me if it is a necessity to use the over the powder wad or not.
I punch mine for my 45-70 from a .050 tablet back using a 7/16" hole punch.
I have been told that the wads were necessary to protect the base of the bullet. Is this the only reason to use one, or do people use them for "light" loads to get rid of the air space. A fella on one of the other forums said that the fouling could be worse without the wad.
Also, can someone explain how the drop tubes work. I plan on making one today but how can they pack the powder better than me tapping the case of powder on the table or touching the case on the side of my vibrator case cleaner. I have even heard of people touching the case on an electric shaver to settle the powder.
Good loadin to you all.
Jack

[Gussy]

wads?? try it both ways. I have a friend that only uses wax paper. Try all types of wads and thickness. Some of my rifles like hdpe and some like fiber??????? No way of knowing why.

Drop tube? The falling grains just pack in better. I've tried the other methods and combinations of them. I do use a compression die. It all comes down to how much powder you want in the case. And... that is determined by what the rifle likes for best accuracy.

You didn't mention what powder you were using or primers.

Fouling control is a whole subject by itself and the wad will have little to do with it as far as I can tell. You need to either wipe or blow tube. Both work and under some conditions (high heat and dry) wiping seems to have the edge.

Don't forget the black powder lube. It is a main factor in fouling. Many folks use SPG and it's a good starting point.

Last, only change one thing at a time.

If it was easy, they'd have called it golf.

[montana_charlie]

I have been told that the wads were necessary to protect the base of the bullet. Is this the only reason to use one, or do people use them for "light" loads to get rid of the air space.
Protection of the bullet's base is the most often-stated reason for over-powder wads. But if you look at a fired bullet that was 'protected' by a .030" vegetable fiber wad you will see some 'lumpiness' on the bottom.

A thicker veggie wad may be better 'armor'...and LDPE wads are said to be better 'cushions'. Also, some say that LDPE squeezes outward some, helping to seal the bore.
(I wonder if it also 'squeezes out' enough when compressing powder to swell the case wall...hmmm?)
When I get ready to try a new wad configuration, I plan to lay a .030" veggie on the powder (to do the compression) with a .030" LDPE against the bullet.

Yes, thinner/thicker or multiple wads can be used to take up space in the case.

But, rather than using them to develop light charges, the main advantage seems to be using them as 'spacers' to get the bullet seated to a desired depth without changing a 'known good' powder charge.

CM

[littlejack]

Thanks for the relies fella's. I am using the Goex "cartridge" powder. For the primer, the WLR. The bullet, I cast myself are the Postell 535 grainers. Last weekend was my first black powder loadings and shootings. Very interesting. I loaded 65 grains with that bullet. Recoil was a nice push rather than the kick of the smokeless powder.
I'm gathering all the things I need to make a drop tube today. This will be fun. What a great sport and hobby.
My wife and I drove to central Oregon (Bend) last weekend where I bought a Uberti Highwall. Such a nice rifle. Out the door for 779.00, and they paid the background check.:wink: I had an H&R Buffalo Classic, but had nothing but trouble with it. I sent it back to them and my money is in the process of getting sent back to me.
Oh! rats looks like there's gonna be lots of R&D with this rifle.
Good loadin to you all.
Jack
PS
Is it necessary to wipe after each shot or should I shoot until the groups start opening up. I do use a blow tube.
I plan on making my own lube from the recipes I have found. Mostly with beeswax, crico and a little other oils available. Another is the beeswax and neetsfoot oil. Any of you have a good lube recipe that you want to share?

[littlejack]

Update on gadgets and progress:

I made my drop tube yesterday. It came out very nice. Had to let the epoxy set up where the funnel meets the arrow shaft. This should work very well. I made a wood frame like the ones that you can buy, so the tube itself can be adjusted up or down. I also made made a compression die. This worked out well when I loaded rounds up yesterday evening. I'm going out to the range today to try some more loads and Chrony for velocities. This will be fun. I'll post my results later.
Jack

[littlejack]

Back from the range.
I guess the most suprising thing that I found out, is that the velocity does not go up per grain with black powder as much as it does with smokeless.
I set the Chrony and started with the 65 grain loads of the GOEX Cartridge bp. I only shot 4 through the Chrony as I had only loaded eight and wanted some to shoot at the 100 yard target.
the results were as follows.
The Lyman Postell bullets were cast of 50/50 mix. Half ww's/half lead. This is an alloy that I had laying around so I decided to use it up.
Bullet weight sized and lubed was 532 grains average.
65 grains GOEX "cartridge " bp.
primer was WLR.
Cases were R-P.
COL was 2.900.
No wads used.
Velocity of four rounds average---1096 fps.
es was 35.47 and sd was 16.03

67 grains powder all other details same.
Velocity of 5 rounds average.--- 1099 fps.
es 29.92, sd 13.60

70 grains powder, all other details the same except using Win. brass
Velocity of 4 rounds average.---1108 fps.
es 51.23, sd 23.17

All powder charges were compressed approximately .250 to .300 to be able to seat the bullet to the desired depth.
I got some vertical stringing but then noticed that the elevation rail under the rear buckhorn sight was able to move forward and backward while set on it's lowesr setting. The groups shot before noticing this cannot really be counted on as good or bad.
I did shoot one group at 200 yards with the 67 grain loads. The group was 4.5" wide and 5.375" tall. From the 100 yard sighting, the bullets droped 39" at the 200 yard mark.
I used a blow tube between shots and one pass with a wiper patch between shots.
After knowing what the sights were doing, and resetting them after each shot, The last four shots with the 70 grain load went into one ragged hole at 100 yards. The group measured
3/16" wide and 7/16" high center to center. I may be on to something.
The rifle is a pleasure to shoot. The buckhorn sights are not good at all for this kind of shooting. Eventually, I will get a tang sight for it. But for now, i'm having fun.
Can anybody give up their best way to clean the dirty cases?
Jack

[405]

You saw in the chrono what is very normal with BP loads. A relatively high percentage of BP is not part of the chemical energy reaction and is simply blown out the muzzle as solids. The converse is true with smokeless.

To clean the cases. I use a plastic tub, hot water with something like Dawn detergent and a test tube or bottle brush. Decap the cases first then clean inside with the brush and the primer pocket with a Qtip. Rinse and set aside to dry. Some shooters put fired cases in a jug of soapy water while at the range then finish cleaning at home.

[montana_charlie]

While you are checking the velocity on your Chrony, pay attention to the ES and SD numbers.
Those get minimized by precise loading practices and consistent fouling control.

Double digit results won't have much effect at 100 yards, but they really show up when you start getting beyond 300.

Which style of tang sight do you have in mind?
CM

[littlejack]

Fella's:
Thanks for your replies.
405, I understand what you are saying about the excess powder, but why would the manufacturers go on to make the longer cartridges that used a lot more powder if the powder is going to get blown out the barrel?
Thanks for the tip on the case cleaning, I will give it a try maybe tonight.

montana c: I do not know what kind of tang sight to get. Remember, I am a novice at this bp game. I would take any suggestions that are offered. I know that you'all have the expierience and knowldge that I am lacking. I would like a good one but one that was not going to cost as much as the rifle. I know that they can get very expensive. I do not plan on getting into the competition shooting, but would like one that would work to say 500 yards and have a good windage adjustment on it. I do believe that the sights are way over priced, but what isn't these days?
Jack

[405]

I imagine that back in the 1860s-1880s more was thought to be better. Also, marketing was at play as it is today. Even with smokeless the law of diminishing returns works the same way but to a lesser degree...

Case neck brushes or nylon bore cleaning burshes can be used if they are the correct size. But they have very stiff bristles. The small bottle or test tube brushes seem better suited.

Some of these brushes will have a loop at the end of the wire handle. I experimented a little and cut off the loop. Then drilled a hole into one end of a wooden dowel. Glued the wire end of the brush into the dowel with epoxy. That way it has a better handle AND can be spun between the thumb and index finger. Seems to work.

pic of basic equipment- simple drying rack and modified test tube brush

[floodgate]

littlejack:

Except for aberrations like the "express" cartridges, the increased BP case capacities were usually matched by increased bullet weight, at about the same velocity = "More Thump!"

Fg

[Dale53]

Basic case cleaning for BPCR's involves having a gallon milk jug at the range, filled two thirds full of tap water with a couple of squirts of Dawn Dishwashing Liquid. After finishing for the day, decap the cases and drop them in the jug. By the time you get home, the work will mostly be done. Rinse the cases thoroughly with hot water. I then empty the jug into a colander (dedicated for BPCR use made of plastic - do NOT use for food after use with cases). These are available at kitchen stores. At any rate, empty the jug into the colander, shake the excess water off and spread out on newspaper. They will be dry the next day and ready to use. This will darken the cases but will not harm them.

If you like shiny bright brass (I do) then after shaking the excess water off, drop them in a vibratory case tumbler and run for a couple of hours. They will come out dry and sparkling clean.

Dale53

[littlejack]

Thanks fella's for all the tips and solutions. This will save me a lot of time learning on my own.
Jack

[littlejack]

405:
Thanks for the thumbnail photo. Thats just what I need. I'm lookin for one today.
Jack

[montana_charlie]

Which style of tang sight do you have in mind?montana c: I do not know what kind of tang sight to get. Remember, I am a novice at this bp game.
I was asking about the 'style' of sight, not (particularly) about brand or capability.
You have the tall, ladder-like staffs, and you have the short cylindrical ones like the Lyman and Marble's sights.

If you want to reach 500 yards with a Hiwall, it's possible the short, round ones won't get you there...but they are good compact sights for hunting and general shooting.

Browse the internet and look at pictures. After you decide which way you want to go, you can ask us (all of us) for 'recommendations' about quality versus price.
CM

[Dale53]

Here is the drill I use to determine the "best" load with my BPCR's. Fill the case to the base of the seated bullet with BP (I prefer Swiss but it is more expensive). I prefer Swiss 1½ granulation (with Goex I like 2F). I load ten cases with that load (zero compression), then ten cases with two more grains of powder (in other words, compressed by two grains. Then ten cases with 4 grains of powder. I keep doing this until I am compressing the powder by .400". Then I start shooting, from less compression to more. Typical results will start with the groups being rather large. As you compress (I use a compression die), each increment of compression will produce a better group. Then when the groups start opening up, you know that you have reached the limit of compression for best results. Then you can reduce the compression (go back and forth by ONE grain). There you are with your most accurate loaded round. This will now be the standard as long as you do not change bullet alloy, bullet design and weight, and powder brand and granulation size.

Needless to say, you will need to keep a good notebook. It can all be done in one range session. I pick a good day, with little wind and good light (bright overcast seems best to me).

Then, you need to get as much range time as you can shooting from 100 to 500 yards. If you have access to a silhouette range, that is so much the better. A good BPC rifle with a good shooter is something to behold.

I like the "Parts Unknown" new style Sharps "Soule" type sight. The best bang for the buck out there. The quality is excellent and their service is second to none.

I prefer using LDPE .060" wads in my 40/65, 45/70, and 45/90. Actual tests with cast bullets have shown no base damage with .060" but I still got base damage with .030" wads. I have also used Vegetable Fiber wads of the same thickness where LDPE is not allowed. I seem to get fewer flyers with LDPE wads than Veggie wads.

Dale53

[montana_charlie]

I like the "Parts Unknown" new style Sharps "Soule" type sight. The best bang for the buck out there. The quality is excellent and their service is second to none.
Now, you have one vote (from Dale) for the Soule sights from Parts Unknown, and a good many others like them as well. However, you might like to be aware that they are also 'Availability Unknown' at this time.
Something has dispupted their supply line.
CM

[Dale53]

The Parts Unknown sights come from the Ukraine. With the USA and Russia presently engaged in a "pissin' match", I wonder if that is what is happening? I hope not as Sergio has a great set of products at excellent prices and gives WONDERFUL service.

Dale53

[wills]

If you like shiny bright brass (I do) then after shaking the excess water off, drop them in a vibratory case tumbler and run for a couple of hours. They will come out dry and sparkling clean.

Dale53

Put a nyon bore brush in a cordless drill and clean out the case necks while they are wet.

Parts Unknown, also known as Ukrainian. They are marked on both sides of the staff, so you can look at either side.

Buffalo arms sometimes has a better inventory than the manufacturers and distributors. You might take a look.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,237.html

[littlejack]

Thanks for all the help fella's.
I looked for the nylon brush with no luck. I finally bought another 45 caliber brass cleaning brush. After I soaked the cases in the soapy water, I chucked up the brush in my little drill press. I put a coffee can of clean water below the drill chuck. I pulled a case from the soapy water and dipped it in the rinse water. I gripped it in my fist, and pushed it onto the brush. I then rinsed and repeated three or four times. Very fast method. I changed rinse water about every 15 cases. After all were cleaned, I rinsed in clean water again and they are drying now. Works good.
The Ukrainian sight looks good. I will look around at some other sights, but from what I have seen so far, the Ukraniun is the best priced.
Dale, that looks like a good system on picking out a good bp load for ones rifle. May have to give it a try, i need to cast some more bullets.
Good shootin to you all.
Jack

[montana_charlie]

The Ukrainian sight looks good. I will look around at some other sights, but from what I have seen so far, the Ukraniun is the best priced.
I was going to refrain from recommending any particular brand until you had time to do some research of the many sights available, and then started asking for specific details.

But, since you seem to be willing to jump on the first Junebug you see, I will point out another maker for your consideration.

Lee Shaver builds two grades of Soule sight (if that is the style you think you want). The easiest way to see them both is to look at his eBay page.
http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/sidehammer_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ
CM

[wills]

You can put the wet cases in a vibratory tumbler. Leave the tumbler where the dust won’t be a problem and run it with the lid off. Let ‘em tumble overnight.

[chewie]

good post. i printed them all out so far. everyone and you answered alot of my questions and made me think of some once i start loading mine.

chewie

[RMulhern]

Board

Here's a post I made on another site reference this subject:

So...you're contemplating shooting some PP using no wads are ya? Well....go ahead and stuff in about 100 grs. Goex or Swiss and let fly for around 40 rounds or so and THEN be prepared to MINE LEAD! I think there was a post here a while back about using NO WADS and even prior to this post that was made I had already made up my mind.....I'm gonna try that and see what happens! Well....what took place was I MINED LEAD OUTA MY BARREL FOR TWO HOURS and I've got more time to spend today doing the same thing! Accuracy was FANTASTIC for about 6 shots and then the impact mound was SAFE!! This particular barrel is a Badger and it came here slicker than snot on a door knob and has been that way since yesterday morning when I did the NO WAD JOB!! Luckily....with about 5 patches of NO LEAD CLOTH going through the bore....I've gotten most of it out but there will be another exercise of extruding lead from the infernal regions of the bore this morning!!

NO WADS????

HORSE-DUNG GALORE!!

Whether PP or GG bullets....the wad protects the base of the bullet and helps prevent 'gas cutting' by having blow-by escape around the outside edges of the projectile in use. And I believe the LDPE wad works best of all after many thousands of rounds fired over the years.....with NO LEADING problems whatsoever!!

FWIW!:drinks:

[725]

Forgive my ignorance, but can somebody tell me what "LDPE" stands for?

[montana_charlie]

Low Density Poly Ethelyne
The same kind of plastic found in margerine tub lids...

[littlejack]

Good evening fella's:
I must be doing something wrong. I have loaded up nearly one full can of "cartridge" bp
( minus about 5 cartridges worth) in the last three weeks and shot them with no leading. Fifteen of those that I shot today were ones that I paper patched with no wads. Ten I loaded with wads. The rest were loaded with no wads, just plain base cast.
Question: If we wanted to make our own LDPE wads, could we cut them out of margerine tub lids and use multiples to get the thickness we wanted?
The rifle still shot the 70 grain loads the best. The sights are still the biggest issue that I am having with accuracy. The factory buckhorn sight are just not good for target work. My aging eyes are not helping with the low grade sights. Today was raining and very dim light. I still enjoy shooting the the rifle immensely. For now, I can hit a can of peaches at 100 yards. Recoil is very tolerable. This rifle has about a 4-5 pound trigger pull, not too bad.
The best way to get lead out of a barrel:
Buy one of the woven COPPER scouring pads. To check if copper or copper plated steel, take a magnet with you and check to see if magnetic. DO NOT USE THE COPPER PLATED STEEL, IT WILL RUIN YOUR BORE.
Find the end of the pad, it will unravel like a knitted sock. After unraveling some of it, wrap the COPPER stand around an old brass cleaning brush untill it fits tight in the bore you want to de-lead. Run this brush back and forth through the bore and in just a few strokes, the lead will be gone. I have used this on all of my handgun bores and had nary a problem. The fella's over on the Handloads .com forum also use this as the best de-leader they have used.
Good loadin to you all.
Jack

[Junior1942]

If any of you guys will send me a SASE with 60 cents postage on it, I'll send you a generous free sample of my 1/8" felt wads. Junior Doughty; 190 Major Doughty Road; Tullos, Louisiana 71479.

[mooman76]

I use the styrophoam from like egg cartons or meat trays.

[montana_charlie]

Question: If we wanted to make our own LDPE wads, could we cut them out of margerine tub lids and use multiples to get the thickness we wanted?
Answer: Yes.

It's also true that LDPE can be purchased in sheets of various size...and comes in a range of thicknesses.

Additionally, some shooters have started using HDPE (high density poly ethelyne) with enough succes to please them. I haven't handled any of that plastic (that I know of) but I wonder if it might be the same stuff used for the lids on 5-gallon buckets.
CM