burnt case mouth

[binski]

Hi board, I have about a 100 paper patch rds down range, so I don't know much! This morning I fired 24 rds of O.E. 1 1/2,69 grs, 370 Buffalo bullet, PP to .401, in a Shilo Sharps .40-65, compressed .050, .030 card wad, OL 3.236, bullet in case .125, case as fired ,no crimp. Vel was in low 1400s.200 m/m ,6#MVA. Wind was terrible, gusting to 30 MPH, from 7 oclock. So group was horizontal, about 8in.My question is the cases had a scorch mark about the depth of the seated bullet. It will come off in the ceramic tumblr.Just wondering what caused this as it doesn't happen with Swiss 1 1/2.Also when depriming cs the punch was covered in (goo) ?,which also doesn't happen with Swiss. thanks binski

[Gunlaker]

The burnt residue on the case mouth is from an inadequate seal which allows pressure to leak past the case mouth back toward the case head. Annealing might make it go away. Sometimes it just seems to be due to a powder with a lower burn rate.

Chris.

[John Boy]

binski - burnt case mouths is called blow back. As Chris stated, with black powder reloads there a 2 primary reasons: (1) Cases not sealed to the chamber walls - anneal your brass to a blue/green color = 650 degrees and (2) low powder charges reloading heavier bullets

[rfd]

i think the chamber also matters, as those with a throat or freebore for lubed groove sized bullets allow added room when using bore size paper patch slicks that's harder to seal off the gases.

[dave roelle]

You might size a few 45-70 cases of differing manufacturers and see what the case thickness at the mouth is. The thicker the case wall ,to a degree, could take up the excess space in the standard chamber giving a quicker seal.
Be sure to trim to fit the chamber length and anneal the cases.

Works in my roller using starline cases

Dave

[Don McDowell]

Little more compression will change that. Excessive fouling such as your getting is usually a sign that the powder needs more compression.

[binski]

I will try to anneal some cases, as the ones I'm using have never been annealed, and go with more compression. Got more PP bullets coming from Buffalo. In the meantime, I"ll shoot some smokeless PP I"ve wanting to try. binski

[rfd]

i had a roller and its grease groove chamber had a goodly throat/freebore. it was not meant for bore rider PPBs, but i entered into patching with that gun and would get blow back around the case because the bullets were .4495" in diameter and not .459". the gun and cartridge was very accurate, and i only load with real black powder. but if there's room at the case mouth in the chamber, and the cartridge is a smaller diameter, it won't seal well ... but it might be be better if the brass is annealed. in the long run, that gun now sports a true PPB chamber and there are no blow back issues, and brass does not require annealing. but it can never again shoot greasers.

[beltfed]

binski,
You might want to try a DDEPP bullet: DualDiameterEllipticalPP such as mine
in your 16 twist 40-65.
Load : 371 gr DDEPP over 74.5 gr Swiss 1.5/0.060 LDPE wad,Fed 150 LP primer
It is stabile out to 1K. See PIC for 100yds group and of bullet and load

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[beltfed]

Note that the bullet has a base band that patches up to FF case I.D./Freebore
and body that patches up to bore dia for perfect concentricity
beltfed/arnie

[beltfed]

My load goes just over ACTUAL 1400fps over my Oehler Chrono
from my 30" barreled HiWall
beltfed/arnie

[dave roelle]

Nice looking bullet beltfed :)

Dave

[oldracer]

Before I switched over to just shooting muzzle loaders, my mentor, who had won many matches and makes a pretty bullet lube told me what to do. First you have to waste some lead (not perfect bullets) and powder and fire form the cases. Next clean them in Dawn and water, then use a ceramic tumbler to get them sparkling. Next square the edge of the case mouth and match all case lengths exactly. Next just before loading use an expander and bell the case mouth very slightly and try them to see what the seal will be like. He used a seater tool which I made a copy of (and are for sale on the ASSRA website) to push them the final 1/16 inch or so. Set the expander die so all will be the same amount of bell. Finally do the loading, powder compression, ETC, ETC.


I know this is what you already do anyways but I wanted to show where belling the case mouth fits in. I never annealed any cases and my mentor never did either.
John

[flatsguide]

binski,
You might want to try a DDEPP bullet: DualDiameterEllipticalPP such as mine
in your 16 twist 40-65.
Load : 371 gr DDEPP over 74.5 gr Swiss 1.5/0.060 LDPE wad,Fed 150 LP primer
It is stabile out to 1K. See PIC for 100yds group and of bullet and load

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Nice shooting! Are you wet or dry patching those two diameter pills.
Thanks, Richard

[ian45662]

I get that little fowling at the end of my cases also. I am shooting pp out of a gg chamber but I have hardly any freebore. It used to bother my but I have gotten used to it


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[ian45662]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180915/8b3a83f1554f6db31f2d42e49e70fd5d.jpg. So here are 2 cases. One was sized at the moth and the other was not. This darkening isn’t apparent until sometime after the case has been fired.


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[rfd]

yup, that's what happens with a PPB bore rider in GG chamber, no sealing. yers looks lots worse than mine was. are you annealing the brass?

if you really only wanna load and shoot PPB's, yer chamber can be drilled, sleeved, and properly recut with a rented PPB reamer. i had that done to a pair of rifles and the result were just excellent in every way. however, those guns can't ever load GG cartridges, which is just fine by me. ymmv.

[ian45662]

I do Anneal after each firing. Those were very early in my paper patch trials and for whatever reason they arnt as bad now but they still do it. It’s not real apparent when they are first fired but the next day is usually when they are black like that. To be honest with you I have been more than happy with the performance of my standard chamber and my bore diameter bullets. When I call up c sharps and get another rifle I will want the same chamber design which is just a standard Sami spec chamber.


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[rfd]

if a day later yer cases look like those images you posted, so yer not cleaning the brass ASAP?

[ian45662]

Nah. Sometimes I don’t drop them into a bucket of water until the next day. When I’m at a match I just don’t feel like de priming then and doing all that while I am trying to stay focused for the shoot.


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[rfd]

personally, i think it's a big mistake to allow bp residue to eat at the brass. i never deprime after shooting, no need for that, but a big need for me to get the brass into soapy water ASAP - outta the chamber, dunked in the jug. back at the ranch the brass gets dumped into a strainer and washed of the soap. now they get deprimed, then cleaned shiny bright inside and out.

[ian45662]

I’m not worried about it. After going into the wet tumbler they are good as new. The residue from the black powder I’m using doesn’t seem to eat the case. Now if I let them sit in the basement for a few days where it’s damp they will corrode and turn that greenish color since the fowling does
Attract moisture. I have left fired brass upstairs for over a week where it’s nice and dry with no I’ll effect at all.


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[binski]

45562,that is what my cases look like. They don't do that with Swiss. I talked to a very good shooter today and he said the same thing , don't worry about it! Flatsguide, that is a group that I could go into retirement with. Tell me more about that bullet. My Shilo is an early model, just after Wolfgang retired. It has something like a 17.7 twist as far as I can tell. My bullets came in from Buffalo so I"ll be loading tonight. Have a Sil match tomorrow and I"ll probably shoot my GG loads as there already loaded. binski

[flatsguide]

Binski, that’s Beltfed’s bullet and group. Wish it was mine ,lol.
Regard, Richard

[binski]

Sorry about that. I get excited easy. binski

[beltfed]

Flatsguide,
I patch my DDEPP bullets dry. Then, just a touch of moisture on seam and paper rolled/tucked over base,
then stand them a few minutes on a warm hotplate to iron down the base paper. they stay together nicely until I slip fit them into my FF brass.
beltfed/arnie
Oh, binski, for that 17.7" twist you should have a bullet about 1.25" long for best stability.

[flatsguide]

Belt fed thanks for the info. One could call that belted section of that two diameter bullet a “driving band”. I wonder what the shortest “band” that would be practical to try. Only inserting the “band” section in the case and as much as possible the bullet bore riding.
Thanks zbeltfed

[Bent Ramrod]

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but, rfd, could you tell us who offers rental paper-patch chamber reamers? I looked through the offerings of White Rock and 4-D, and couldn’t find any mention. Would like to try one in .45-2.1”

[beltfed]

Indeed. I am now working with a DDEPP bullet for my 12 twist 40-72:
Its 1.54" long, 440gr, and has a 0.125" long base band that patches up to the I.D.
of the case mouth. The rest of the bullet is "patch to bore" diameter to start out concentrically in the barrel.
I have helped several friends with design of two diameter bullets who are now having success/accuracy with
PP in GG chambers.
beltfed/arnie

[rfd]

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but, rfd, could you tell us who offers rental paper-patch chamber reamers? I looked through the offerings of White Rock and 4-D, and couldn’t find any mention. Would like to try one in .45-2.1”

yeah, PPB's are a niche in a niche industry, try dave manson - https://mansonreamers.com/

[Don McDowell]

45-90 brass, loaded with a .446525 money bullet cast from 16-1, fired from a proven championship grease groove chamber.
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