Rifled Pump Shotgun... Advice?

[longbow]

Pondering finally getting a rifled gun.

Looking at the usual options being Remington 870 and Mossberg 500. I've read pros and cons on each and feel like it is a fairly even match so likely best price wins between the two and it may be a combo option where I think Mossberg wins.

Both are offered in 3 1/2" as well. Can anyone offer advice on whether 3 1/2" is a good choice? Never shot one and mostly load 2 3/4" slug loads but if 3 1/2" hulls are readily available then some filler wads more or less take care of extra space.

I am guessing 2 3/4" hulls in 3 1/2" chamber is not a good way to find accuracy and even 3" hulls leave a large gap to the bore as well but the option is there anyway.

So, pros? Cons? Who's got experience here?

Also, other brand options that are competitive? It seems both Remington and Mossberg offer good quality at a better price than most others. Again, any advice?

I am in Canada so somewhat more limited options than most Americans.

I should add that use is for "plinking" (general blasting stuff and targets) and bear protection so relatively short (18" to 20" barrel and full stock) and open sights being the preferred choices.

Thanks,
Longbow

[DougGuy]

I have a Mossy 500A that I think is 3" only, and I use 2 3/4" walmart slugs in the rifled barrel. It will cloverleaf a playing card @100yds very consistently. It has about a foot or more of smooth freebore before the rifling starts, it's only rifled the last 8" or so of the 24" barrel. I fired a round of 00 buck at a sheet of plywood 10yds away and not one pellet hit the plywood. Rifled barrel is for slugs and sabots *only" so keep that in mind.

[JeepHammer]

I have handled both extensively, in civilian life & in combat zones.
My choice is the Rem 870 hands down.

While the Mossburg 500 'Works' it can have feed jams, and it rattles like a junkyard during an earthquake.

The 870 is MUCH smoother, much quieter, and generally functions better.
The 870 is also longer lived.

3" mags is about all the larger I go, mostly since 2-3/4" cycle through it better than they will a 3-1/2" feed receiver, and I shoot mostly 2-3/4" at clays, and at board matches.
It's hard to find a receiver that won't swallow 3" mags these days, but when I find a steel receiver in 2-3/4" I pick it up.

It's up to you, but this is one time I'd kick out the extra dollars for an 870.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm strongly in favor of the Mossberg 500. I never used one in combat, but when you compare a plain mossberg 500 to a remington 870 express, I'll take the 500. The 870 wingmaster is much more refined. The 870 has a few things going against it. The shell lifter is a point of failure. If you don't get a shell clicked in the mag tube, it can pop out. With Mossberg you just drop a shell. With the 870, you are completely out of commission, and you need to disassemble the gun to fix it. I've seen it happen way too many times. The next thing is the safety. It's hard to reach right handed, and just plain sucks for the left handed. Mossberg put the safety where it was supposed to be.

As for reliability, both speak for themselves. Both are used by the U.S. military.

That said, my personal experiences have not been good with the 870. I can't remember the number I've seen over the years, but far too many have failed. I already said the shell lifter problem. The other problems I've seen are live shells ejecting out the bottom, and the gun locking closed for a second. I've personally shot 870's that lock up. You shoot and pump, but the gun is locked. You almost have to push forward before pulling back. It's a quirk of far too many 870 express's. It could be a burr, or some other manufacturing reminant.

Both Mossberg and Remington's come fairly stiff new. JeepHammer has had better luck than me, but I find 500's run much smoother. They don't lock up, and they run like greased lightning once broke in. I don't know what is loud about a 500, I've hunted with both, and if anything the 870 safety is louder.

As far as 870 longer lived, that's just plain bull. They're pump action shotguns, what's going to wear out? There are all kinds of old 500's out there. Jerry Miculek never managed to wear out his 500, and he has been running it like a mad man for 30 years.

I can't speak for the old guns, but new barrels are fully rifled back to front, or should be.

I played around with 12 gauge 3 1/2" shells for years. I don't think I'll be using one again. You get needed volume with steel shot, but for everything else, the 3" fits everything and then some. You don't want to be lighting off 3 1/2" mags in a gun that light anyway. Once I tried 10 gauge, I never went back. You get sizable improvement in 10 gauge, and you get it in a gun that you can shoot without wincing. You do need to be man enough to haul around a 11-12 pound gun though.

All new 500's and all 870 express models have 3" chamers, they never made 3 1/2". Mossberg has their 535 which is a proper 3 1/2" gun, but not what you need. Remington came out with the 870 super mag, which is 3 1/2", but the old ones were troublesome. The newer ones must be Ok, as the only purpose built remington 3 1/2" pump they made (887) was discontinued.

[toallmy]

I can't really say one is better than the other , but I have always had a least one 12 gage Mossberg 500 it hits what I point it at and feeds whatever I put in it . I have probably purchased 8 or 10 new Mossberg pumps in my lifetime and never broke or wore one out . Currently there is a Mossberg 500 in 410, 20 and 12 in the cabinet .

[elvas]

There is another option. Benelli Super Nova. Chamber is 3", not 2-3/4".
https://www.benelliusa.com/slug-guns

[Hogtamer]

Kent, iirc you've got a nice BPS already. Kinda scarce but there are rifled barrels out there. Is there a Canadian equivalent of Gunbroker? Whatever you choose a 3 1/2" chamber is worthless to me in a pump gun, as I can load more than I can shoot in 2 3/4" hulls with most slugs and buck anyway. FWIW I've got 6 - 870s, one of them for parts. Since you're looking take a look at this....
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/777709965

[NyFirefighter357]

The hot rifled shotgun right now is the Savage 220 it's a 20ga bolt action. The Savage 212 is 12ga bolt action. The 20ga uses a 250gr 45cal sabot Poly tipped pistol bullet while the 12ga uses a S&W 500 50 cal sabot. Both shoot approx. 2000fps. If your in need of a pump the 870 or 500 both will do well enough with rifled barrels. What distance are you shooting? The real advantage of riffled barrels is the accuracy, flatter shooting & reach out to 200yrds. I can shoot a foster slug 100-125yrds in my smoothbore accurately. My rifled shotguns are Marlin 512 Slug Masters 12ga 3" bolt action I usually use 2 3/4 Hornady SST's without accuracy issues out to 200yrds. Mine are sighted in at 150yrds.

https://i.imgur.com/KG1ykQe.jpg

[bikerbeans]

If you go the 870 route buy an older, pre 2000, one. Remington ain't Remington anymore.

BB

[Petrol & Powder]

I not going to bad mouth the Mossberg 500 but I disagree with megasupermagnum's characterization of the 870.

The 870 has been in continuous production since 1950 and it is about as tested and proven as they get. It is a rock solid design.

As for the shell lifter being a flaw in the 870, I strongly disagree. The shells are retained in the magazine tube by a pair a shell catches that are operated by the action bars. Those catches work fine unless someone attempts to "improve" them or they are damaged by poor cleaning methods. Most of the problems I've seen with the 870 (and the failures are rare) are the result of operator error. Short stroking the action, failure to load the gun properly or incorrect assembly.

The 870 is monotonously reliable.

The aluminum receiver of the Mossberg 500 makes it attractive to the military due to the weight saving and reduced chance of rust. The tang mounted safety is also ambidextrous. However the plastic safety button on the 500 is a point of failure.

The original shell lifter on the 870 was solid and made a mis-feed a real pain to correct. The newer style lifters have a tab cut that allows a little flex and allows a mis-feed to be corrected with brute force in an emergency. Again, those failures are almost always induced by the operator and not the design.

[Hogtamer]

Oh yeah, a cantilevered barrel is a huge plus for scope mounting!

[jmort]

Next up for me is the spendy Ithaca 37 Deer Slayer III. It is made right.
https://ithacagun.com/product/deer-slayer-iii/
Right now I have a few rifled barrels for my 500 receivers, ported, non-ported, sights, and cantilever.
An Ultra Slug Hunter is my favorite.

Completely agree with this:
"As far as 870 longer lived, that's just plain bull. They're pump action shotguns, what's going to wear out? There are all kinds of old 500's out there. Jerry Miculek never managed to wear out his 500, and he has been running it like a mad man for 30 years."
The 500 is a better design in my opinion. Dual extractors etc. To each his own

[Moleman-]

My best friend likes the 500 and I like the 870. His is old enough that it has a metal safety, but still has the plastic trigger housing. Another highschool buddy (a lefty) has had both and went from the 500 to 870's and has stuck with Benelli since switching to it around 20 years ago. We were goose hunting once and his 500 safety broke in half. I ended up making him one out of aluminum when we got home that night. It was still on his gun a few years later when he loaned it to another guy who wanted to goose hunt with us. The 870 I hunt with is one of the first or second year express models with the metal trigger guard. Only got it because after the switch to steel shot my older 2 3/4" 1100's seemed hobbled. My only gripe about the 870 express is that the finish on it isn't as durable as the wingmasters. Wish they would of just gone with parkerizing or not bead blasted the gun before bluing it. 30 years of use makes the finish look more worn than my much older 1100's.

As far as chambers go, I wouldn't pay extra for a 3.5" chamber unless it was for a gun that would only be used as a goose gun. For slugs a standard 3" or even 2 3/4" is fine and slug availability is better.

[EMC45]

Remington 870. End of story. Police Magnum, older Express Magnum or Wingmaster. Far better gun than the Mossberg. I have owned all manner of shotguns. Winchester, Mossberg, High standard, Remington etc. Bolt action, pump, singles, Semis etc. Have ripped them apart, rebuilt and accessorized them. Remington 870 is the best. Hands down.

The Mossbergs are rattly, have plastic parts, and aluminum receivers. Thumb safety is nice, when they work and don't break in 2.

I have an old (1973) Wingmaster That I have put untold number of rounds through and it just keeps going. I have gutted it, rebuilt it, put different parts an pieces (not due to failure of any kind mind you) on it and it still keeps going. It's diet consists mainly of buckshot and slugs (factory and handloads), but occasionally sees birdshot loads with the old fixed choke vent rib barrel installed. I call it Frankenstein.

I guess I am biased when it comes to Remington. I have had the most success with their guns. I am also a Remington 870 armorer for my agency as well. They are caveman simple and very robust guns.

[725]

Everybody's got their idea, and I don't really disagree with any of the above. Those bolt guns are accurate! I have a Wingmaster with a cantilevered Hastings barrel in 20 ga. and a Hastings heavy barrel on a 12 ga. Tack drivers.

[jmort]

I have to laugh at some of this. No plastic on the 870???. The inferior plastic whatever. For the 870 fans here is what an authority on the 870 plastic has to say:

"The trigger groups are on a polymer housing...I have found the polymer to be completely durable and stays cleaner internally. I have the polymer housing on all of my weapons as do all my employees."
https://www.aiptactical.com/build-your-weapon.html

As to the Mossberg safeties, I switch out to aluminum as I do not feel the plastic safety holds up as well, but I never had a problem with one. Anecdotal statements like my friend's broke mean nothing. When the single extractor on the 870 breaks guess how you fix it??? Let's just say it is a PITA and leave it at that.

[ascast]

Just a little different take on this, I assume you mean 12 ga? I shoot an Ithica Deerslayer in 16ga. With Remington sluggers, it will hold about 4 inch groups at 100 yds all day. On bear or deer (any kind) that is no difference. The rifled will shoot a lot further they say. I don't doubt it. But, rifled guns won't shoot shot of any size worth a dang. Either way, it's about $1 a shot. Maybe you should think about the "PLINKING" part again. have fun

[EMC45]

I have to laugh at some of this. No plastic on the 870???. The inferior plastic whatever. For the 870 fans here is what an authority on the 870 plastic has to say:

"The trigger groups are on a polymer housing...I have found the polymer to be completely durable and stays cleaner internally. I have the polymer housing on all of my weapons as do all my employees."
https://www.aiptactical.com/build-your-weapon.html

As to the Mossberg safeties, I switch out to aluminum as I do not feel the plastic safety holds up as well, but I never had a problem with one. Anecdotal statements like my friend's broke mean nothing. When the single extractor on the 870 breaks guess how you fix it??? Let's just say it is a PITA and leave it at that.

Al my 870s have metal trigger guards. Extractor or ejector?

[Hardcast416taylor]

When I worked part time for a local gunshop I sighted in literally 100`s of shotguns with slugs. By far the best shooting was the old model 870 Wingmaster with Remingtons slug barrel that only had a rifled tube in the muzzle. We found the most accurate slug was the old Winchester 1 oz foster style lead slug. At our 100 yd. range it was common to place 5 slugs in a 4 - 6" group. Even the Mossberg shot better with these slugs. Remingto 1 oz. slugs were all over the target. We told a sales rep about this grouping, he responded that if you listened carefully you could hear the Remington under sized slugs rattle as they went down the barrel! The Winchester slugs are nearer to bore diameter and the final rifle twist was a big help. All you need to do to make a choice between a Rem. and a Mossberg is pick them up and heft them and function the action.Robert

[EMC45]

Replacing the extractor on the bolt is as simple as depressing the spring and rotating the old/broken extractor out and replacing. There is a detent and spring in there that is housed in a channel. Clean channel and oil and repair. Now.....If the ejector plate or spring is what you reference then that is a bigger job. Those are riveted to the side of the receiver. Grind off old peened rivet heads and knock them out of the receiver. Replace the ejector plate and spring and re-rivet. Grind rivets flush on exterior and re-finish.

[megasupermagnum]

There is another option. Benelli Super Nova. Chamber is 3", not 2-3/4".
https://www.benelliusa.com/slug-guns

I've had a Benelli nova since just a couple years after they came out, and own a rifled slug barrel made by the older Ithaca company. It's a fine shotgun, but not one I would recommend as a slug gun. The biggest reason is Benelli barrels are expensive beyond any reason, think $400+, don't have much of a used market, and Longbow is in Canada.

I never could run my Nova like I could a 500, probably from the long 3 1/2" stroke. It is tough as nails though, same as any other quality pump action. I haven't shot the slug barrel in some time, my Nova has been my main waterfowl gun for 15 years or better now, and I can't remember ever having a problem.

[jmort]

Al my 870s have metal trigger guards. Extractor or ejector?

Which is exactly the opposite of what AIP Tactical says is best. They are way beyond anyone else's paygrade with 870s, so who are we to believe you, or J.D. McGuire???
I will go with the best opinion.
Why not stop bashing the 500??? It is as fine a pump action as there is. We all have our favorites.

[texasnative46]

longbow,

IF you can find one, buy a 1960-70s era Ithaca Model 37 Deerslayer as it is the REAL DEAL.

I issued myself one OCONUS (as I'm not a fan of "the Mattel Special", aka: the M16). = In years of jungle use, it never failed me even once, feeding buckshot & slugs acceptably well, despite mud/dirt/sand/saltwater & long/wet weeks W/O being thoroughly cleaned.

The team also had access to Polish & Czech made AKs & those worked well, too.

yours, tex

[longbow]

Okay then lots of responses and info to digest.

Also, I wasn't clear enough in my post. My aim (no pun intended) is a knock around gun with bear protection in mind. The reason I mostly mention Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 (though as pointed out with regards to 3 1/2" ~ 535) is that there are some good deals on 2 or 3 barrel combo's. The Remingtons tend to come as a 2 barrel set and the Mossbergs as 3 barrel sets.

And yes, I neglected to say 12 ga. That's a given isn't it?:-D Except lately I've been thinking a 10 ga. might be even better especially with 000 buck option! But then that would be smoothbore.

I tend to lean towards Remington 870 for the reasons mentioned ~ they've been around the block and I like steel receivers. However, I am open to new things and the Mossbergs are also a well proven gun.

The 3 1/2" question was in regards to accuracy and versatility. I have no intention of shooting a steady diet of 3 1/2" full loads. I was thinking 2 3/4" load data with filler wads but that's a lot of filler. The shorter hulls leave a huge jump to rifling so likely a bad choice for accuracy.

As for "plinking" I load my own and cast my own round balls of 3 sizes and slugs of several designs so no that won't cost me a bunch of money but the shoulder does takes a beating when shooting 50 rounds in an afternoon.

I could go with either in 3" and be quite happy but wondered about any benefit or disadvantage of the 3 1/2". I suspect I'll stick with 3" chamber.

I am thinking rifled for slug only, no buckshot in that barrel.

I already have a Browning BPS with smoothbore slug barrel and several single shots. My son has an old 870 with full length barrel and I have shot other 870's and like them. I have not handled a Mossberg so no experience there.

For the intended purpose I don't really need a rifled gun. Bear issues are usually close up so a hard cast slug or round ball in smoothbore should be plenty accurate and effective for that purpose. I thought rifled because I don't have a rifled gun and this give me a dual purpose purchase and even better if a combo gun. Open sites are preferred (by me) for quick handling and target acquisition if needed. I don't want to have a scope on a gun that can get knocked around and may be used in emergency ~ bear charge! We have an abundance of black bears here though I have never really had serious close encounters but our grizzly population is growing rapidly now and that worries me some.

Hadn't thought of Ithaca so there's another good option though not as readily available or as customizable... though I like plain old wood and steel with simple sights. I could go synthetic stock which is better for a knock around gun but I'm not a black gun guy so don't need infinite mod's and add on capability.

My other though is a decent side by as 2 shots is about as many as a guy would get off I think, in a bear charge situation anyway, and there is no feeding issue to worry about... 2 dependable shots as fast as you need them or as slow as you want. At this point thinking about the Stoeger Supreme with screw in chokes for possible slug accuracy with rifled tubes though regulation would most likely be a serious issue. However, two 12 ga. round balls and cylinder chokes would do for bears at the ranges required.

Then I get back to the shooting/plinking bit and a pump is a far better choice.

Looked at rifled barrels for my BPS but I can buy a gun for what a Browning rifled barrel goes for!

Should have bought an H&R Ultra Slug Hunter when they were available but didn't. That wouldn't suit the bear requirement but I'd still like one!

Lots of things to think about. If I go pump gun I suspect it will be a rifled Remington 870 Express or an older 870 then buy a rifled barrel.

I appreciate the responses (so many responses since yesterday!), comments and info. Keep 'em coming, I will read them all.

Thanks,
Longbow

[EMC45]

Which is exactly the opposite of what AIP Tactical says is best. They are way beyond anyone else's paygrade with 870s, so who are we to believe you, or J.D. McGuire???
I will go with the best opinion.
Why not stop bashing the 500??? It is as fine a pump action as there is. We all have our favorites.

Really not bashing Mossberg that hard. I am not just a fan of them.

Personally you can believe who you like. Whoever you think is best.

As far as Remington and plastic trigger guards are concerned; I think that was a bean counter decision. As Remington continued to make bad business decisions and cheapened their product the plastic trigger guards arrived. I am not a fan of the plastic hence the comment I made about getting an older 870 of the flavor of your choice. My Wingmaster is 1973 and my 2 Expresses are 1994. I have full faith and confidence in them.

[longbow]

Well, here's another question... do Remington 870 Express rifled barrels fit Remington 870 Wingmaster shotguns? I ask because a sporting goods shop in Ontario has a nice looking used Remginton 870 Wingmaster that could be in the running.

And yet another question... are there metal replacements for the plastic 870 parts now used. Call me old fashioned, I like metal with steel being the preference where ever possible.

I am leaning towards the 870 though since both Mossberg and Remington shotguns are used by police and military I am sure they are both good enough for me! Personal preference is the key here I think. I'll go fondle a Mossberg as the LGS... if they have one.

[jmort]

A nice older Wingmaster will have a fit and finish that will be really nice. The express barrels fit. I bought a few barrels off EBay. Also, Mossberg sells Remington barrels. I have a smooth bore slug barrel in addition to all the others.

[leadhead 500]

For each his own, I would choose the 870 with a rifled barrel. I own both the Mossberg and the 870 the Mossberg is a great gun and it will take all of the abuse you can give it. The 870 is built better and is a time tested gun that will last a lifetime, as for accuracy both shoot well with rifled barrels and different slug loads. My rifled 870 has had the barrel shimmed and is topped with a Nikon slug hunter scope and shoots Lyman 525 and full bore slugs great out to a 100 yards. The next thing is a 3.5” slug load is a hand full to shoot, some of the heavy Lyman 525 loads and full bore slug loads in a 3 inch is all you want ahold of from the bench. A good 870 with a 3 inch chamber and a rifled barrel is a good combination and will serve you well for many years

[Hogtamer]

Yes on the barrel fit. No plastic in the old wingmasters to replace.

[toallmy]

Pick the one that feels the best in you hands , swing it around a little and shoulder it some . Don't be afraid to alter the stock to make a shotgun shoulder good for you . I love the new thick soft rubber recoil pads when shooting stout loads but , they might slow you down when you need to get your shotgun up fast . I am biased towards Mossberg manly because they have never let me down so I have never had the need to go elsewhere + a healthy barrel selection . I think you should get both a wingmaster and a 500 .:-D

[Mr_Sheesh]

I like the 8 shot Ithaca 37s for Bear etc., admittedly the chances that you CAN fire more than a few rounds before a bear gets to you aren't high, unless it's knocked down but not yet DRT. Griz are pretty fast. They do make good slug guns in the Ithaca. I'm looking for a field shotgun and thinking of a Nova maybe (Unless I convince myself to do a Belgian Browning A5 again.) Slug gun could be a lot of fun though, maybe with "Pumpkin Ball" loads. You guys are so enabling LOL! But good information :) Only problem with having more than one shotgun make/model that I've found is, you have to train yourself to use several sets of controls (If you reach for the safety on one shotgun to try to put it in "Fire" mode when the safety's not THERE on the shotgun in your hands, if you're up against a Grizzly for example, you're not going to be happy with your results!) which has me thinking of getting everything the same make and model. Could solve that by working the controls enough when in Alaska to refresh your motor neurons with the current shotgun though, I'd think.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My experience with pump shotguns goes way back and my first one was a Ithaca 37 which I just had refurbished and it came out nice! Good gun for Skeet and upland birds.

I also have 2 M500's one is my tactical gun for 3 gun shoots and the other is a $160 field gun I put Magpul furniture on and is now my HD gun..

Both of these guns got all the internals deburred which took all of 30 minutes each. Both of these guns run flawlessly as long as I don't short stroke them. I don't do that often but I have dropped shells in the port backwards a couple of times in the heat of a stage. PITB to get the back out. This would hold true for any gun.

My Tac gun has been to two Front Sight classes which I have commented on extensively in my posts here.

It has had the barrel "Vang Comped" which resulted in night and day handling betterment. it also has Williams Rifle Sights with a nice Green Fiber Optic front which shows up well in the sunlight or with a weapons mounted light.

The HD gun is going to get Vang Comped soon and it has an XS Tritium Big Dot front sight which is a big green light bulb in the dark.

Mossbergs have several distinct advantages over the Rem 870. 1. The Ejection Port is larger and that eases "port loading" which is a necessary thing in dealing with limited magazine capacity or when changing ammo types. IE: from Buckshot to Slugs. 2. the placement of the Safety is ambi. 3. the cartridge lifter of an 870 has a bump on it which blocks the ejection port if the fore end is moved forward even slightly. This is a big problem! 4. M500's have dual action bars and dual extractors 870's don't. 5. The placement of the slide release behind the trigger guard is far superior to any other gun 6. M500's are less expensive than 870's to begin with.

Aluminum receivers are not a problem at all because all of the parts that matter are made from steel and all the receiver actually does is provide a place for them and keep them together. My Tac gun has nearly 2000 rounds thru it and there is no internal wear whatsoever. It runs very smoothly, and overall is a joy to shoot. The Vang Comped barrel being the biggest contributor to that as it delivers smooth strait line recoil. Magpul furniture also helps as it keys the fore end in place so it can't twist which smooths the stroke..

One last nail in the 870 coffin that I just found out about yesterday.

They are now being made in China!

This comes under the heading of things that just shouldn't be!

As far as a rifled barrel for you Long Bow. Here's a pic of my 3 shot group shot at 50 yards ,,, Offhand !

I don't see a need for a rifled barrel for what you want to do, or what I need to do. This gun is easily capable of making Center Mass hits out to and maybe beyond 100 yards with generic low recoil slugs. I doubt you would see a substantial boost in accuracy with a rifled barrel with the projectiles commercially available or what we make at home.

I'd say what you need is my HD gun with rifle sights. And don't forget sending the barrel down to get it Vang Comped. My buckshot patterns are 7" at 25 yards! That gun with the mods would be worth about $600US. You could probably pick up a used field gun like I did, and cut the barrel off $100 for the furniture and a few little things that just make the gun nicer to shoot.,

Randy.

[megasupermagnum]

Where did you hear the 870 is now made in China? I don't keep close tabs, but this is news to me. I'm sure some parts are outsourced, but just a couple years ago, all the major parts were USA made.

As for accuracy, if you're not familiar with Longbow, he is a slug reloader who is mostly doing this for fun. A smooth bore is perfectly capable of defensive use at 100 yards. A rifled barrel will give you better accuracy with almost any load, including rifled slugs, most of the time anyway, not every time. There are a bunch of full bore slugs out there that can only be accurate from a rifled barrel, as well as round balls. Round balls can be plenty accurate from a smooth bore to about 60-70 yards, but a rifled barrel will see their true potential.

Put a smooth bore gun on a bench, even scoped, and you will be lucky to see consistent 6" groups at 100 yards. The same gun with a rifled barrel, can cut that in half.

[Moleman-]

There is a copy of the 870 that is made in china since the design is no longer under patent protection, but the last 870 I bought last fall was made in the USA. The chinese copies are sold under different names and not by Remington, hawk 982 is one.

[longbow]

Well, I gotta say I am glad I started this thread! You guys are full of good info! I obviously picked the right crowd to ask.

As for the bear protection bit, I agree totally, a rifled barrel is not required and round balls or sold nose hard cast Foster will do fine. However, for the "plinking" fun a rifled barrel would be nice. I have lots of smoothbores to play with though only two with actual slug barrels.

I am about set up to start rifling a choke tube with slow twist rifling as well and if I get that done before I buy the new toy and it works well, the new toy may just be another smoothbore that I will put the rifled choke tube in for longer range "plinking" (artillery fire more like!). If I don't have it finished then I'll likely go rifled just to have one. The jury is still out between Remington and Mossberg. Both should be just fine for my wants and needs. Hmmmm... maybe I should get one of each!

As for Remington being made in China, I haven't heard that but certainly can't dispute it. What I do know is that in Canada we can buy Norinco firearms that are made in China. Not sure if they are available in the States or not but the importer says they cannot ship to the States. Several of their guns are pretty much exact copies of American and European guns. They do make an 870 clone that I am told can use Remington 870 parts. A few people I know that have or have shot Norinco guns say they are quite well put together. I've only seen one M14 clone and it looked good but I haven't had a chance to shoot it. The Chinese can do a good job but their usual approach is cheap and dirty for the mass market.

Hah! I see you posted a pic of the shotgun with the Cutts Compensator on it Randy! Do you still have the Cutts? Those and the old Power-Pac systems used to be pretty common. I like them better than screw in chokes because they are beefier. The screw in chokes I bought to rifle are pretty thin and the solder on barrel adapter is really thin! Actually I have thought about the versatility aspect too and an HD gun like yours with possibly an add on rifled barrel would be nice.

Still thinking. Got to make up my mind soon but still thinking. Got to re-read this thread too! Lots to digest.

Thanks,
Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

Here is a model to keep in mind, Mossberg 500 #52280. I bought one last winter, and it has been great, like all Mossberg 500's. The model #52280 is a turkey model smooth bore 20", threaded for chokes, and comes with a set of crappy sights. I had a set of Williams vent rib sights that fit right on, and they have been on since the day I bought it. I'm sure the original sights would work, but they only had three windage settings, and no elevation adjustment. It's a camo model, but if you can get past that, it is a great smooth bore slug gun, and you could use it with your custom rifled choke. Take the sights off, and you have a decent small game and upland gun. Of course you can put any other barrel you want on it too.

I'm sure there is an equivalent 870 model, but that's my advice. Get a turkey model.

[gpidaho]

longbow; I've only had it out to the range twice since I picked up the NEF slug gun HiVelocity sold me but I'm pretty impressed with the heavy 11lb+ single shot. The weight really tames the slug loads. 38gr Blue Dot slug loads are very manageable with it. My light break barrel Savage-Stevens hurt with the same loads. Might not be the shotgun you'd want in a Grizzly encounter but it's a lot more fun at the range than lighter guns. Gp PS You can see in my avatar what can happen in a bear encounter with a single shot. LOL

[bikerbeans]

gp,

That bear reminded me of my first wife when i would come home late.

BB

[gpidaho]

BB: And that's why we came home late. Right? It's been years since I've had any female supervision and at my age it's like the old beautiful princess or the talking frog story. I too, would rather have a talking frog. LOL Gp

[Hogtamer]

LB, this a wingmaster police I picked up cheap although like new off gunbroker a couple of years ago. 3" chamber, holds 6+1 - 2 3/4" shells. Fixed IC choke. Finally found a good saddle mount and added good red dot. Shot this buck @ 60 yds or so with a lee 7/8. Reckon if I had to face Mr. Bear this would be my choice, although the videos I've seen of charging bears not sure a short double might not be just as good....those things can move!
227046

[CastingFool]

when I was looking to buy a 12 ga, I checked out both the 870 and the 500. The 870 felt solid, while the 500 felt tinny. Ended up getting the 870 with a 20" IC barrel with rifle sights. At 50 yds, it would group either Winchester or Remington slugs into 2-3/4" groups all day long if I did my part. When I got into turkey hunting, I looked for a 2nd barrel with removable chokes. Ended up buying an 870 Express 3" chamber. by simply switching chokes, it does double duty for both turkeys and geese. Never had any trouble from either gun, the first one is about 40 yrs old, and probably has had 2500 rds. through it. I shot skeet with it for about 3 summers, but it is my dedicated deer gun now.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well, I gotta say I am glad I started this thread! You guys are full of good info! I obviously picked the right crowd to ask.

As for the bear protection bit, I agree totally, a rifled barrel is not required and round balls or sold nose hard cast Foster will do fine. However, for the "plinking" fun a rifled barrel would be nice. I have lots of smoothbores to play with though only two with actual slug barrels.

I am about set up to start rifling a choke tube with slow twist rifling as well and if I get that done before I buy the new toy and it works well, the new toy may just be another smoothbore that I will put the rifled choke tube in for longer range "plinking" (artillery fire more like!). If I don't have it finished then I'll likely go rifled just to have one. The jury is still out between Remington and Mossberg. Both should be just fine for my wants and needs. Hmmmm... maybe I should get one of each!

As for Remington being made in China, I haven't heard that but certainly can't dispute it.

Hah! I see you posted a pic of the shotgun with the Cutts Compensator on it Randy! Do you still have the Cutts? Those and the old Power-Pac systems used to be pretty common. I like them better than screw in chokes because they are beefier. The screw in chokes I bought to rifle are pretty thin and the solder on barrel adapter is really thin! Actually I have thought about the versatility aspect too and an HD gun like yours with possibly an add on rifled barrel would be nice.

Still thinking. Got to make up my mind soon but still thinking. Got to re-read this thread too! Lots to digest.

Thanks,
Longbow

LB: Yes I do still have that Cutts compensator on that gun shown with the IC choke tube installed. I also have the Spreader, Modified, Full, Extra Full and Extra/Extra full choke tubes and the wrench. All were reblued when the gun was refurbished by Ithaca last year so everything matches. That gun was made in 1940! So now I have a brand new M37 that was made in 1940, and is well broken in! It is the smoothest running Pump Gun I've ever handled by a substantial margin.

If you're going to do a M500 get a short barreled one like my HD gun as with the 20" ones the barrel nut is right on the end of the mag tube and there's no room for anything on the end of the barrel.

If you watched "Polar Bear Town" about the guides in Churchill they all carry 18" pump shotguns either 870 or M500.

I still have that other cutts compensator minus the choke tube and since I'm going to cut the barrel of on that gun to 18" it won't be needed. If you're interested maybe we can make a deal?

As far as the Remington made in China,, it was a Remington Mariner I believe on the Remington site and I was at a LGS when they found out and everybody in the place was screaming!!!

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

More: don't get me wrong, Remington 870's are very good guns and far superior to Mossbergs as "Field Guns" or "Trap and Skeet Guns", however IMHO the M500/590 is far superior as a "Tactical Gun."

With a Field Gun or Clays Gun loading and unloading are done thru the loading port on the bottom of the gun, and seldom done under pressure. The slide release is in front of the trigger guard and the safety is behind the trigger guard which is fine for a Right Handed Shooter, and entirely usable in the field on on a Trap Field. They even have Shell Catchers for these guns so you don't have to chase your empties.

You'd probably never load a shell in thru the Ejection Port.

With a Tactical Gun, Port Loading is part of the Manual of Arms. When you run the gun dry in the heat of a conflict and they are shooting at you, you probably won't have time to fully load the magazine, so the accepted technique is to single load the gun thru the Ejection Port like shown above and keep firing back at the opponent until time and cover permit reloading the magazine. With practice this becomes easy.

In a class you will be loading and unloading the gun frequently, The M500 is just easier to do this with. The rear placed slide release is easier to access than the front mounted one on the 870 or even the M37 Ithaca.

The Ithaca can't be Port loaded simply because there is only one way in and out of that gun. You have to load thru the magazine and that's it. Fine for a field gun but not as good for a Tac gun. Browning designed that gun because he was an avid Duck Hunter and wanted all his empties to land in the boat so he could reload them. It does that perfectly! I love mine and it was my first shotgun that I bought from a friend for $100 in 1973 after I got out of the AF. Now that it's been refurbished he recently offered me $1500 for it. Gonna keep it for a while longer.:mrgreen:

The other usage for port loading is changing the round in the gun from buckshot to a slug. Two ways to do this. If the magazine isn't fully loaded and there is room for another round you stuff a slug into it and cycle the action and waste the round in the chamber in favor of the slug which is on deck..

If the mag is fully loaded,,, You cycle the slide slowly and then tip the gun over on its side to dump the chambered round and the on deck round out. Both rounds will fall out the Ejection Port into your right hand and can be pocketed,,, and then you port load the slug, and you still have a nearly full magazine to fall back on. If more slugs are required you can load them into the magazine as needed and continue firing.

The 870 is just harder to do these things with due to the smaller Ejection Port and placement of the slide release. Not impossible, just harder.

Dual Action Bars and Extractors help the M500 cope with more severe usage better as well.

The 18" M500's are 5+1, and the 20" ones with full length mags are 7+1. If being used as a Bear Gun which you have to carry around all day, I'd go with the short one with a nice side mounted sling so the gun lays flat on your back.

I'd just run low recoil slugs which are running 1300 fps. I know you'd probably be shooting you own concoctions as would I,,, but keep in mind without the Vang Comped Barrel treatment, the recoil from anything considered Full Power like Federal Maximum Slugs at 1610 fps are going to knock the snot out of you in the light gun, so follow up shots might be a problem. I can't say enough about the Vang Comp Barrel mods as the difference it made to my gun was literally nite and day! I will be sending the 18' bbl over as soon as I can.

Brownell's also makes this neato little Steel Safety Button with the raised rear end that makes operating the safety much easier. $15 and you can install it when you take the gun apart to deburr everything on the inside. see pic.

Look again at my HD gun. That's sounding alot like what you need. It was made from a Field Gun I got for $160.

My extended .02!

Randy

[rking22]

Hate to say this, but China might make a better 870 than Rem nowadays! And this from a very dedicated 870 fan, I even shoot international skeet with one! The express 870s Ive handled in recent years feel like they are full of gravel.
Yep, M37s are slick, that restored 1940 gun is beaytiful!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes it came out nice. I bought the wood in 1976 and it was from Fajen. I never did anything with it as I didn't want to screw it up. I have a friend who does alot of work on high end shotguns and he did the wood work including cutting the pistol grip stock down to strait English, he also did the checkering and it all came out nice.. Then I sent it to Ithaca for rebluing and internal refurbish. They replaced the trigger and one other small part and reblued the entire gun with the choke tubes and everything.

It is easily the nicest one I've ever seen.

Randy

[longbow]

That is a beaut Randy!

My BPS shares the same bottom load/eject features plus it has a selector to disengage the magazine feed so a guy can single load or dump a round from the chamber and replace with something else. It is a bit awkward but still a nice feature. Not sure if the Ithaca has that option.

All in all I like a side eject pump better though if I find myself needing to feed more rounds through the ejection port during a bear charge I'm thinking I need to work on my speed and reflex action some!

I looked at the Cutts but for my purposes I like the Pachmayr Power-Pac better as the choke tube is set back and close to the barrel which with a rifled tube would be better I think. But thanks for the offer. I have got to get to rifling that choke tube and silver soldering the adapter onto my single shot barrel. As mentioned in another thread the plan is deep rifling of at least 0.010" and 1:72" twist. I built the rifling machine about 3 or 4 years ago and tested it on 3/4" pipe... worked well. Life got in the way and I didn't get a choke tube rifled to try but I'm working my way around to it again. A mere aside as it is not necessary for bear protection but would be nice for plinking (yes, .73 cal. plinking!)

Yes, a side by or over/under with two hefty slug loads may well be a better bear buster due to not having to do anything but point and pull two triggers (yes, I like two triggers). However, I get back to the "plinking" aspect and so rifled barrel comes back into play. I have smoothbores.

What I would really like is an H&R Ultra Slug Hunter for plinking and a shorter version of the Remington MODEL 870 SPS SUPERSLUG with a standard wood or synthetic stock for bear protection. The Superslug with an 18" to 20" barrel and open sights along with a "normal" stock would be my ideal pump gun I think... and to be fair if Mossberg offered similar it would be in the running too. But I'm not spending $900.00 to cut a barrel off, replace the stock and get open sights mounted so i'll be looking for used and not too expensive new shortly, bearing in mind the advice I've gotten here.

Thanks,
Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: I believe the BPS is essentially an Ithaca M37 with a Mag cutoff. After all JMB did design the M37?

Port loading probably wouldn't come into play during a bear attack unless you sucked so bad that you couldn't hit the bear with the first 6 shots ! If that was the case then maybe port loading another round to use on yourself would be in order. You Canucks aren't allowed to carry handguns in the field are you?

I have seen one model of the M500 or 590 that had the 18" bbl with open sights. I kind of want that barrel for my HD gun. If I find it I'll shoot you a link so you can look at it.

Randy

I looked around on the Mossberg site and found this 24" rifled barrel which would go on my short gun. This might work for you. The prices advertised on the shotguns are pretty reasonable $4-500 US even for the 590 series guns which are the heavy duty guns. http://www.mossberg.com/store/500-12-gauge-slug-barrel-with-cantilever-mount-with-rifle-sights-24-blued-6-shot-92056.html

You should look around there and see if something strikes your fancy.

Randy

[longbow]

Yup! John Browning had his fingers in a lot of designs that's for sure!

I've looked at the 24" barrels but that is a bit on the long side, 18" to 20" is a good length in my mind. I'd like a rifled bull barrel in 20" with open sights on a good reliable pump. Good to have it pinned or shimmed for slugs too though hardly an issue for the bear consideration. Minute of pie plate at 25 yards will do for bear attack but better accuracy never hurt. Good round ball loads from smoothbore are way better than that anyway so hard for a rifled gun to do worse I'd say.

I was looking at the 590's too. I don't see any rifled barrels available for the 590 but if there were it would make a good combo with HD barrel and rifled barrel.

Maybe I should get my butt in gear and rifle the choke tube I have. I bought an extra full choke tube to bore out then rifle. It isn't as long as I wanted but it is way easier than making one from scratch. If my deep groove slow twist choke tube works well enough it opens up some options.

Winter weather is coming soon so bears will be asleep and I will have time in the shop.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

If you want a 20" fully rifled barrel and iron sights, that pretty much narrows it down to the 870. I guess you have to ask yourself, is the rifled barrel really for hunting/defense or just fun? Like I said, you can get turkey models for cheaper than anything labeled tactical. Same gun with a short barrel, threaded for chokes, and a vent rib opens up possibilities for sights beyond what they come with. The 590 just might be the toughest gun in existence, and I mean it, but you want the 500. I didn't see any accuracy improvement with a pinned barrel with iron sights. It's only for a receiver mounted sight, and in that case I consider it a requirement.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I meant to say that I saw the open sights on there as well but no gun with them. I have seen a 590 with 18" bbl and open sights at a gun shop in Simi, but I didn't get the model number and it didn't show up on the website.

The Rifled barrel I sent you to was 24" and had a integral scope mount on it. A Burris Fastfire or Bushnell TRS 25 on that barrel and then cut 6" off it, would be a viable way to get to an 18" rifled barrel. or you could have Williams Open Sights attached to it.

My Tac Gun was originally the Bottom of the Line $205 HD gun they were selling at Big 5 in the 80's/ with a 18" bbl and short mag. My Father in Law gave it to me 25 years ago. He bought it to shoot a raccoon that lived in their attic and then realized it would poke holes in the house so he got rid of it by giving it to me.

I bought the 20" bbl and long mag tube from Brownell's for $115 about 20 years ago and put it on.. I kept the short barrel,,, and it went onto the older field gun I got recently and then I sold the Barrel Mag Tube and Wood furniture to a guy here on swappin and sellin.

I've got $160 for the gun+110 for the Magpul Furniture and another $75 in XS Front Sight and steel Safety for a total of @$350. - the $150 I got for the parts and I'm back at $200 then with another +$200 for the Vang Comp ends up at $400 which for what it is = Pretty Cheap. I will make one of my 1.5" wide slings for it with QD swivels so if it needs to go with me I can sling it. Teh sling on the side allows for cross body, cross back or conventional carry for the gun. Good to have options when in the field.

As far as Side Saddles I'm really partial to Brown Coat Tactical Velcro Side Saddles. They are very well made and stick on the side of the receiver with Velcro Tape. $15 each and if you have a full gun and 6 more on the side you are pretty well equipped for short trips into the forest. No problem to carry a few more shells with you if you choose.

I have Streamlights for alot of my guns and I move them around as needed. Th HD gun has one so I don't shoot my wife or cats, but it comes right off easily and can go on my Glocks as well.

The Magpul Fore End allows easy attachment of Accessory Pic Rails with their M-Loc System. The stock has places for sling swivel attachment or more permanent slots to thread a sling thru. I use the same material that 5.11 makes their belts out of and use QD swivels for attachment to gun, that way I can remove them quickly if they're not needed.

What I'm trying to show you here is what, after over several years of playing with these two guns, I've come up with for a workable setup. The Tac gun has been to 2 Front Sight classes (another next month)which helps to wring out your setup pretty quickly. It has also been to a few 3 gun shoots which help with your kit as well.

All this is directly transferable to a Backup Gun for field use as you need fast handling, easy reloading and easy to carry as part of the program. I once saw a guide who was friends with the late Tred Barta who liked to shoot big bears with his long bow. Dan always carried a Rem 870 for a back up gun and I didn't realize why until I took that first Defensive Shotgun Class. Now I understand perfectly! Shotguns with buckshot and/or slugs are extremely formidable weapons !!!

When my Jeep is done that short gun will probably ride in the box behind the seats as varmint protection.

Here's some close up pics of the HD gun.

Randy

[Cap'n Morgan]

But I'm not spending $900.00 to cut a barrel off, replace the stock and get open sights mounted so i'll be looking for used and not too expensive new shortly, bearing in mind the advice I've gotten here.

Over here you could plunk down $200 and walk away with an older European-made s/s - then chop off the last two or three inches and have a nice bear protection gun (if two shots ain't enough you'd probably be bear food anyway;)) Not many uses side-by-sides anymore (unless it's high quality guns with snob appeal) If you could live with a 16 gauge you could likely have it for free.

[Tripplebeards]

I have a savage 220 I bought for Iowa hunting a few seasons ago before they changed over to straight wall pistol calibers. I bought a RA 450 bushmaster to replace it for that purpose. I still have the savage. I used it one year. It's the stainless camo version. I acraglassed the action, installed a Nikon monarch 2.5x10 40mm BDC and a DNZ mount. The 20 guage rifled shotgun can consistently put three Remington 3" accutips all in one big hole at a 100 yards. I haven't seen any other shotguns capable of achieving this kind of accuracy. I'm pretty impressed with it. I tried 5 different "tip" type slugs and the worst group still stayed under 2" off the bench. I'd recommend the savage. I've had a few rifled Remington 12 gauges and they were pie plate accurate at 50 yards at best. No thanks.

I use to love my pump 870's back in the 80's. They were fun to shoot for trap and small game. I graduated up to a beretta a390 semi automatic back in 2000' and never looked back. I use it for waterfowl, turkeys, and predators. No noise or movement to cycle another shell into the chamber to spook game to take out the other coyote standing next to the other. I have a browning gold Turkey edition 23" barreled 10 guage for turkeys and I picked up an old school nib 80's beretta pintail when they were made in the same factories with the Benelli black eagles. It's the exact same inertia system with the exact same parts...not like the newer versions that they had a Walmart for the last few years of runs. I bought it for $300 in the box. I do love the Remington 7600's though. The rifles are quieter that the loud cheap rattle trap shotgun versions. Pump shot guns are fun and reliable but I don't get excited about racking the "loud" pump to impress my friends anymore I'd rather point, aim shoot, and repeat. Never have a had a jam either even when shooting 100's of trap loads in a single session. It all comes down to gun can and cleaning when done.

I've owned a few 30" 12 guage wingmasters. Nice guns, they don't jam even when dirty, they just sound like bucks slamming horns every time you cycle a shell and rattle like a pocket full of change after their broke in.

The only thing I'd use one for it keep behind my door for self defense if I ever picked up another. You can buy a lot more gun for the same money now a days.

[Greg5278]

I am not a big Fan if the 500 or 870. The 500 rattles and is loose, maybe good for Shot, but not much else.
The 870 has been declining in Quality for many Years. The 870P isn't bad if you can find a used one.

I like the Ithaca 37 style actions, and have several. The Problem with some Guns is that They don't Feed properly with loose Rounds.
The Mossberg 500, Benelli M1, and JC Higgins Model 20 don't have that Problem. Drop a loose Round in the Ejection Port and snap it closed, the Lifter will take care of the rest. I have not found any Actions to be more accurate than the Fully Threaded Ithaca style with a Floated Barrel. The older 2 3/4" Guns can be rebarreled to fully threaded easily.

Greg

[longbow]

Maybe I should change my philosophy and reconsider two guns, one for knock around bear protection and one for accuracy. I do like side by's and I'm with Cap'n Morgan in that if a guy needs more than two shots its probably one too many to be of use. Extra available shots don't hurt but the side by is simple and dependable with no feeding issues at all. As long as the firing pins hit the primers hard enough there's two shots for sure.

In all honesty I've lived in bear country since 1981 and we see lots of bears but I've never had a problem. In fact we get bears in our backyard every year and some very large black bears at that. I have seldom carried a bear gun and seldom had an encounters where I felt particularly threatened though some could have gone that way. However, most people I know that spend time in the bush quadding, berry picking, hiking/bowhunting now carry bear guns because bear sightings in general are increasing and grizzly sightings are now becoming fairly common.

For bear protection almost any reliable smoothbore with decent slugs or round balls is adequate. Personally I don't like the "persuader" style of gun with no buttstock. I'd rather have a shortish package with 18.5" to 20" barrel and buttstock. Open sights or even a bead are my preferred sights though ghost ring peep is likely as good or even better so HD guns fit the bill too.

And as megasupermagnum suggested, I have looked at turkey models too. If I discount the rifled barrel or consider a pump with smoothbore barrel for bear protection and rifled barrel for "fun" shooting that just might do me.

I was looking at a used Remington Superslug at Elwood Epps Sporting Goods in Ontario but it sold. They are across the country so this is window shopping on the internet. It looked good though and was a reasonable price. The long barrel and scope don't suit bear defense uses but it should be a decent fun gun for general shooting though pricey new. They have a used 870 Wingmaster with fully rifled barrel now. Kinda looking at that. Could get a smoothbore barrel to go with it. It will share the looseness of other pump platforms so longer range slug accuracy may not be as good as a solid single shot or bolt gun.

Hadn't thought much about the Ithaca but they are a good solid gun. Might re-look there too. New are pretty pricey but there may be some used ones around.

I like the idea of lots of available options for Remington 870's and Mossberg 500's but in reality I likely won't be doing much that way. Once set up it will stay the same other than possible smoothbore to rifled barrel change if a pump.

As usual, I'll ponder a while and ask for more opinions before laying down the cash. Since winter is coming the bears won't be an issue this year so no rush for a decision right now.

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. And don't be shy adding to the thread. I'll keep checking.

Longbow

[Bigslug]

Armorer trained on both. Own both. Have hunted with both. A serious gun guy is unlikely to break either, but I MUCH prefer to work on a Mossberg when something goes wrong, or hand a Mossberg to a novice if it's got to run right despite their clumsiness:

The staked in, "solid state" ejector and shell latches on the Remington are a royal PITA when you have to replace or re-secure. The former on a Mossy is held with a simple slot head screw, and the latter simply fall out when you remove the trigger.

Irreparably damage a mag tube on a Remington & it's a trip to the factory. On a Mossberg, you heat-gun the Loc-Tite, unscrew and replace.

Dual extractors on the 'berg. One on the Remmy.

A double feed on a Remington (either through parts wear or operator error) can make life. . .interesting due to the #&*$(ing floppy, variable-position shell carrier, which can also prevent or complicate loading directly to the chamber. On a Mossberg, the shell carrier (elevator) is locked in step with the position of the forend - an extra, double-fed round simply falls out the bottom and you press on. When chamber loading, the elevator is locked down (no way to screw it up) and when the bolt is forward, the elevator is locked up (not in your way when stuffing the magazine).

The top mounted ambi safety on the Mossberg is handier and is a lot more intuitive as to which way to push.

Both Remington and Mossberg make their cheap and their higher end:

On Remingtons, you REALLY want a Police Model (or at least an older one). The Police versions are Parkerized (current civilian matte blue will rust if you look at it wrong), have metal trigger housings (vs. plastic), have milled bar stock extractors (vs. MIM cast), beefier internal springs, and the "old style" method of retaining the magazine spring and barrel, which is a lot more modular if you want to change barrels.

With the Mossbergs, the higher end is the Military line of 590-A1. These give you metal trigger housings and safeties, and a thicker barrel wall, but those are the only real changes from the lower priced guns.

Edit to add: The only difference between a 500 and a 590 is that the 590 has an open-front magazine with a removable spring-steel mag spring retainer for easier cleaning of the tube. You can remove the mag tube and barrel to change your capabilities. Not quite as easily swapped around as a Police/older magazine 870, but my general attitude is to leave the house (or bear) gun configured and loaded for that job, and leave the field gun a field gun. Murphy says you'll have the wrong parts and ammo on the gun when you need it.

[toallmy]

If you are looking for a strictly slug gun go bolt action , for general purpose go pump with assorted barrels . It seems every time I get the slug barrel slighted in with the scope mounted on the receiver I want to change the rifled barrel out to a smooth bore . So in a perfect world you need a dedicated slug gun , but my world is far from perfect + any excuse to go shooting is a good one .

[Bigslug]

As to the bear issue. . .

I would stick with a smoothbore and either hollow-base Foster or felt-backed Brenneke - both of which are drag stabilized. I've held 8" groups at 100 yards off the bench with low-recoil Fosters with only a front bead to aim them with. Need for anything tighter than that will have you into a shotgun-only deer hunting zone with specialized sabot slugs. The smoothbore gives you "accurate enough" and the ability to quickly go to buckshot is a nice option.

[jmort]

What post #55 said.

I would add the Aluminum receiver is not a stress part.

"The secret to passing the 3000 rounds of high base buck shot reliability test is in the steel-on-steel lock-up of the full square cut Mossberg® bolt lock. Unlike other shotguns, which use an angled shoulder type bolt lock, the Mossberg® bolt lock is a completely through the barrel bolt locking system. The square cut bolt lock is captured in a square cut-out in the barrel, so at the time of firing, the strength of the steel-on steel lock-up is unsurpassed. Add the exclusive dual extractors for positive extraction and you have the answer to who makes the most durable and reliable fighting shotgun"
http://www.aimprotactical.com/aimpro_frequently_asked_questions_faq.htm

[W.R.Buchanan]

We are definitely having a discussion and that's what this place is all about. I have learned a bunch, and as you know I have no problem expressing my own opinions.

I really liked the link to Aimpro and their motto. "Nobody argues with a .73 Caliber Rifle!"

it's a good day!

Randy

[longbow]

Well, I gotta say... convincing arguments. I've been an 870 fan for a long time but am now leaning towards the Mossberg.

Also thinking I should really go the two gun route using a knock about smoothbore for the bear protection and get a solid single shot or bolt gun for slugs and .73 cal. plinking/target shooting. My hard cast TC HB slugs or round balls in smoothbore will be plenty good for bears. Same slug or solid from rifled gun should make for a fine long range (for slugs) shooter.

Mossberg has some good deals on 500 combos. I have to look at 590 prices and options. Not sure a 590 qualifies as a knock about gun! It would bring tears to my eyes to scuff up a nice gun. A cheap 500 combo not so much and especially if I can find a 500 used. Either way I want a short barrel for ease of carrying and use in close quarters/brush if necessary.

Still thinking but thinking a little differently now!

Thanks again for all the info.

Longbow

[John Boy]

IF you can find one, buy a 1960-70s era Ithaca Model 37 Deerslayer as it is the REAL DEAL. Have one and it has shot many deer

[Bigslug]

Mossberg has some good deals on 500 combos. I have to look at 590 prices and options. Not sure a 590 qualifies as a knock about gun! It would bring tears to my eyes to scuff up a nice gun. A cheap 500 combo not so much and especially if I can find a 500 used. Either way I want a short barrel for ease of carrying and use in close quarters/brush if necessary.

What you get with the 590 vs. the 500 is perhaps a little more ability in the knock-around category. A LOT of crud can be introduced into the magazine via whatever is clinging to the shells at the time they are loaded. The 500 mag system is good at not having a loose mag cap/barrel nut lying around to be displaced, but it's not quite so readily user-cleanable. As a hard-use aftermarket accessory, I like Vang Comp's followers as they have both a donut hole that quickly tells you the mag is empty, and scraper grooves that will collect the worst of the crud they run over. The downside is that, because of the hole, there's no plug to keep crud out once the mag is empty.

The heavy barrel on a military-grade 590-A1 is probably there to avoid denting in CQB entries and the like, and it does add some weight that may not be desired. A civilian-level 590 will weigh a bit less and cost considerably less. I'll freely admit the plastic trigger housing is merely a pet peeve of mine and in reality, it's unlikely to cause you problems. I would, however, upgrade to a metal safety switch on one (whether it's the OEM military part or an oversize aftermarket from the likes of Vang Comp, I would not particularly care) as I have seen a number of the plastic ones die an early death. Upgrading the safety is going to be a cheaper option than a full-tilt, A1-level gun.

I'd personally want either Parkerizing or a nickle-plated Marine model if I was going to trudge around the wet, wild woods for any appreciable length of time. I've gone to stainless/synthetic hunting rifles as my primaries and not having to fuss over them has been a great addition to my overall experience. That said, once you get a few repetitions pulling the guts out of a Mossberg and putting them back, keeping them properly wiped down is not a big deal.

[megasupermagnum]

Remember the only structural differences between the 500 and 590 is a metal trigger guard, and metal safety. I recommend changing either one to a ProMag safety if you want real thumb purchase. The standard one is fine, but the ProMag is better. As for the metal trigger guard, why worry about it? I've never seen a broken one, and even if it did, the gun would still function. 500 and 590 barrels do not interchange, and the 500 barrels can be found at any gun store, most gun safes, and all over ebay.

[Bigslug]

What post #55 said.

I would add the Aluminum receiver is not a stress part.


Absolutely true, and I would add that, since it's merely a housing and alignment jig for the other parts, you get another maintenance perk as well. I mentioned earlier that the cartridge stops (or shell latches in Remington parlance) are simply held in place by the trigger housing and fall out when you pull that part. This allows really easy cleaning of a receiver that won't rust. The Remington uses the "advantage" of a malleable steel receiver to stake the shell latches in place. How much crud, moisture, and rust is living in the gaps between receiver and spring-steel shell latches? Only way to truly find out is to drive them out, grind off or otherwise work around the stakes, and re-install the latches by beating in new stakes. . .using one or more specialized tools to do it - - or just give it a lengthy bath in an ultrasonic cleaner, blow out, finagle some oil in, and hope for the best. The riveted-in ejector system is, if anything, an even more soul-sucking creator of foul language.

[gpidaho]

Longbow: If you have a shotgun that's adequate for hiking about with the bears then why not get a heavy barrel single shot for your plinking toy. You know a bunch more about this shotgun slug shooting than I do but I sure do like the NEF heavy barrel slugger I just picked up. That extra weight really tames those hard kicking loads. Just a thought, but the pump guns be it 870's or 500's are still pretty light and made for packing about not bench shooting. Gp

[longbow]

I'm with you there Gp! I don't currently have a handy packable bear gun though so there is one of two goals and that is to get a handy packable bear gun. The second is long range slug accuracy. I've struggled with smoothore long enough so I think rifled is the next step but I am thinking two guns, each with a purpose is the way to go. The bear gun should be short, handy and at least two fast shots. The fun gun can be a single shot but should be solid and accurate for long range slug shooting.

I wish I had bought an H&R USH when they were available. I may find a used one but they are not as common in Canada as in the States. The heavy barrel is one of the reasons I kinda liked the Remington Super Slug gun but they are a bit pricey and I really don't like the stock. Not sure if the Rossi single shot is still available or not but there is the CVA... except as far as I know they do not do bull barrel. I've been beaten up enough with my light single shot that I'd like some more weight for general shooting.

I am thinking more and more that a short barreled pump or side by smoothbore is the best for packing around for bear protection and something more dedicated to slugs and longer range accuracy for "plinking" and .73 cal. slug fun. A pump or side by will do for bears and maybe I take the step to a Savage 212 for accuracy? Got to look at options there.

Longbow

[gpidaho]

longbow: I don't think you would be happy with the Rossi's as slug guns. Not that they aren't good little shotguns, just pretty light. I own two of the Rossi's, a twenty gauge and a 410. My 12 gauge break barrel is the Savage-Stevens. About a year ago when I started reading Ajay's posts I was bitten by the slug bug. (Not the VW) Seemed like I could get in rather cheaply with the break barrel light guns but as you know the recoil can be pretty intense. The NEF break barrel I picked up here at the Boolits sales threads from Hivelocity was unfired new in the box and is marked Partner Tracker II Plus It's fully rifled and is a heavy 10 gauge barrel bored 12 gauge so very stout. It's a real joy to shoot after the beating the light break barrels provide. Another resent purchase is the MKA 1919 Match. It might be a little too long for a bear gun but does give five very quick shots in slug and buck combinations out of a five round box magazine The price of the 1919's is pretty reasonable and the reviews say that the bugs in the original models have been worked out. I like mine. I wish we were three or four hundred miles closer so we could spend a day at the range plinking 73 caliber. I'll continue to watch this thread and see what choice you make. Best. Gp

[longbow]

Oh I know about light single shots. my main slug gun is an old Cooey single shot and it is light! I got tired of being hammered with recoil so hard when I shoot off the bench so made a raised cross stick type rest that sits on top of the shooting bench and is easily adjustable up and down. It raises the gun so that I am not leaning into it, more like I am standing so recoil is absorbed much less painfully. Last couple of times at the range I ran 30 rounds each day through the gun off the bench and didn't really suffer from recoil. A heavy barrel gun would be nice though and a USH or the NEF heavy barrel gun would be nice. I wish others did that or that accessory bull barrels were available. I've never seen any though.

The main appeal of the Remington Super Slug is the heavy barrel but that package is a bit pricey for me. If Mossberg made a heavy barrel for a 500 that would be nice. I'd be happy with a heavy single shot for .73 cal. plinking though. Don't need fancy or a repeater, just a solid accurate gun.

To sum things up so far:

I think the decision for a bear gun will be either a pump (most likely Mossberg or Ithaca) or side by in smoothbore. Short and handy with open sights/bead. I just saw two nice Ithaca 37's for sale used so will check those out some more and look for other good used deals too.

For plinking gun, I am good with single shot or bolt gun. Not looking for fancy just solid and accurate. Heavy barrel as you note would be a big plus. I may add weight to the stock too. Greg's comments about "loose" pump guns is well heeded and I remember all the articles written about trying to tighten up pump gun barrels to improve accuracy. Greg's accuracy standards are undoubtedly high than mine but no good reason to ask for trouble using "loose" guns. I'll keep my eyes open for a used USH or NEF heavy barrel gun as first choice and Savage 212 or other bolt gun. Seems to me there were a few makes around a few years ago but Savage is it now.

And in both choices the guns will be 12 ga.

Yes, we are not that far apart. Who knows, once I get set up maybe we can get together. I am seeing retirement on the horizon now... just under a year if all goes well. That'll give me much more time to do things I like. Not a big fan of work these days, it takes up too much of my days, but it pays the bills.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

One single barrel slug gun that has been overlooked here is the TC Encore with a shotgun barrel and they Rifled barrels with sights and scope mounts and a bunch of other stuff as well.

Have a look at this https://www.tcarms.com/firearms/interchangeable-platforms/encore-pro-hunter/encore-pro-hunter-shotgun-slug

Unfortunately they are not giving this one away. $892 MSRP ! But the gun does allow for interchangeable barrels so you could add a Muzzle Loading barrel with whatever on it. I didn't see this Rifled Barrel with Iron Sights (it is available as a loose barrel) which I would want although a Red Dot on the gun would probably be better for hunting in the woods than sights.
https://accessories.tcarms.com/product/encore-encore-pro-hunter%C2%99-rifle-barrels-stainless-steel-fluted-6/

Something else to look at/ponder.

Randy

[Greg5278]

When I say loose fitting Guns, I typically mean ones that can fit a heavy Shim between the Receiver and Barrel. I shimmed a Mossberg 500 with
some Aluminum from a Soda Can. It worked better, until Recoil and Forces pushed it out. I would think that Tolerances like that are not conducive to Accuracy. Sometimes the Guns can be more accurate than the Shooter, but I'm not too convinced with guns having a lockup in a Barrel Extension.

CNC Machining has allowed tighter Tolerances than before, and the ability to start a Thread where needed. The biggest Complaint of the low number Ithacas is the need to have a new barrel fitted. Why is this an Issue? We don't complain when a Centerfire Rifle needs to be Rebarreled?
Low Number Ithacas can be fitted with a fully threaded Barrel, and free floated. It is not tough, not certainly an universal fit part but well worth it. What level of Accuracy is required?

I had a LE Shooter fire Full bore Slugs with a Tar-Hunt 2 3/4" Bolt Gun. His worst Groups were 1.75 MOA at 100 Yards. Most Groups were 1 MOA. Good Shotgun Slug Ammunition is better than most Shooters, including Myself. I do not include Myself in the same Category as a LE Sniper.

A Properly Hand loaded Slug n 2 3/4" is not any less powerful than the 3". I have loaded plenty of heavy stuff than still stays within SAAMI specs. My Favorite Smoothbore Load is 615 Grains at 1555 FPS. Not fun to shoot, but devastating on Game.
Greg

[W.R.Buchanan]

I do not include Myself in the same Category as a LE Sniper.

Don't sell yourself short and please don't think they are the endall. The ones in my town's department are pretty pathetic.

Was at our range one day when the Police "Snipers" were there shooting their $8000 Custom Sniper Rifles. 5 of them. Nice guns with expensive optics and bipods etc.

We have a 2x3 foot plate of steel hung at 600 yards and each took 5 shots at the target and NONE hit it even once! They were shooting off bipods and none of them had even sighted in their guns beyond 100 yards.

After they had finished I asked if I could shoot and they said have at it.

I pulled out my Ruger Scout Rifle (.308) with a 1-5 x Leupold Scope and proceeded to hit the gong dead center(8" group) 5 times in a row shooting off my backpack.

They all clambered to find out my big "Secret?" I told them that I had shot my gun at 200,300,400,500 and 600 yards and knew my Elevation Offsets.

They asked me what "Elevation Offsets" were? And I told them that was the amount of elevation you dialed into the scope when shooting at longer distances. They asked why I did that and I told them I thought that was pretty obvious.

Then one said "we were told we'd probably never have a shot beyond 75 yards!"

Good thing I guess? Because it appeared that a target beyond a 100 or so would be pretty safe.

I asked why they needed $8000 rifles to shoot less than 100 yards?,,, Crickets.

My point? Don't sell yourself short. You might just be alot better than the competition! LE is not known for producing the best marksmen. Sure there are some, but they are the exceptions. When it comes to pistol shooters, I routinely beat most, if not all, of the LE guys at local 3 gun shoots that are less than half my age! (that includes the older ones too)
They routinely shoot once or twice a year and that's it! Various excuses. NO time , NO free ammo,,, blah blah.

I have never been able to resolve with my brain, why a man would choose to carry a gun for a living and not be REAL GOOD WITH IT!

Seems counterintuitive on a massive scale.

IMHO a cop who isn't a "Gun Guy" really shouldn't be a cop.

Maybe that's just me. YMMV

Randy

[Mr_Sheesh]

I know a local cop somewhat who's not a gun guy. His specialty is reaching out to kids, community outreach, sorta; This PD is a GOOD one from everything I know (there're others not far from here who aren't so good.) I know if I was in that job (Not one I want tho!) I'd be better trained than I've been - And far more current on range time than I am. But, for most LEO's, the tool they use most often is a pen - or computer. Not many shootouts around here that I've heard of.

[EMC45]

Don't sell yourself short and please don't think they are the endall. The ones in my town's department are pretty pathetic.

Was at our range one day when the Police "Snipers" were there shooting their $8000 Custom Sniper Rifles. 5 of them. Nice guns with expensive optics and bipods etc.

We have a 2x3 foot plate of steel hung at 600 yards and each took 5 shots at the target and NONE hit it even once! They were shooting off bipods and none of them had even sighted in their guns beyond 100 yards.

After they had finished I asked if I could shoot and they said have at it.

I pulled out my Ruger Scout Rifle (.308) with a 1-5 x Leupold Scope and proceeded to hit the gong dead center(8" group) 5 times in a row shooting off my backpack.

They all clambered to find out my big "Secret?" I told them that I had shot my gun at 200,300,400,500 and 600 yards and knew my Elevation Offsets.

They asked me what "Elevation Offsets" were? And I told them that was the amount of elevation you dialed into the scope when shooting at longer distances. They asked why I did that and I told them I thought that was pretty obvious.

Then one said "we were told we'd probably never have a shot beyond 75 yards!"

Good thing I guess? Because it appeared that a target beyond a 100 or so would be pretty safe.

I asked why they needed $8000 rifles to shoot less than 100 yards?,,, Crickets.

My point? Don't sell yourself short. You might just be alot better than the competition! LE is not known for producing the best marksmen. Sure there are some, but they are the exceptions. When it comes to pistol shooters, I routinely beat most, if not all, of the LE guys at local 3 gun shoots that are less than half my age! (that includes the older ones too)
They routinely shoot once or twice a year and that's it! Various excuses. NO time , NO free ammo,,, blah blah.

I have never been able to resolve with my brain, why a man would choose to carry a gun for a living and not be REAL GOOD WITH IT!

Seems counterintuitive on a massive scale.

IMHO a cop who isn't a "Gun Guy" really shouldn't be a cop.

Maybe that's just me. YMMV

Randy



I have shared that same sentiment for years. Most LEOs view their guns as another piece of equipment on their duty belt. I include shotgun and rifle in that too. Many are sub par performers when it comes to firearms handling and qualifications.

[Apocalypse]

Have you looked into a Dominion Arms Grizzly? 12 gauge, 10 inch barrel, 5 shot box mag. Norinco nay-sayers will have you believe they're garbage and that may have been true in the olden days. They're cheap, they're sufficiently accurate (especially with zinc slugs), they're portable, and they're legal in Canada.

The barrels are interchangeable with Remington 870, also.

[W.R.Buchanan]

But, for most LEO's, the tool they use most often is a pen - or computer. Not many shootouts around here that I've heard of.

All it takes is one nutcase to go off, and the Pencil/Computer guy is all of a sudden the tip of the spear. Kind of needs to be a sharp point?

And everyone here should know that there are plenty of Nutcases out there. Anti Psychotic Drugs are at the root of this problem, and they are being prescribed to our children at an alarming rate driven by people on the left (Educators and Doctors) thinking they know what they are doing. And if their purpose is to destroy future generations of our population, they are doing a great job!

All of the kids who have "gone off" have been on some kind of prescribed drug to control them in one way or another. All of these school shootings revolve around this fact, however the very first thing you hear before the bodies are cold is gun control! Real good reason for this.

It's called redirecting your attention away from the actual cause.

It is not like Congress isn't aware of this problem. They know full well, and on both sides, what is causing the problem. But when Big Pharma is paying your bills they tend to look the other way.

Remember the little town in WV that was being flooded with Phentanol? Like 2 million doses for 700 people? The people who distributed these drugs, which are on par with Nitro Glycerin, should be in jail! None even got indicted. It all got brushed aside.

Have you ever heard anything about Prescription Drugs being the root cause of these shootings on TV? Why not? It's always guns.

Big Pharma is the third largest Lobby in DC, behind the Friends of Israel and the NRA. There's A LOT of MONEY in DRUGS!

I ran into a guy at one of my LGS's the other day and we talked for a while about Reloading then I asked him what he did for a living?

Well any of you who are familiar with the Ventura Santa Barbara Area of SoCal know about the Polo Fields on the north end of Carpenteria. Well, the area below that used to be a big time Flower Growing Operation owned by this guys family, with 100's of green houses and a perfect moderate climate to grow flowers.

Columbia is now producing those flowers and selling them here for less, so it is no longer profitable to grow flowers here.

But it is profitable to grow POT here, and financed by Big Pharma and Wall street all of those Green Houses are producing $1500 a lb. Pot at an alarming rate. YOU CAN SMELL IT FROM THE FREEWAY AS YOU DRIVE BY!!!!!

Each green house produces 2000 lbs of $1500 a lb. POT every 11 weeks. That's $3 Million every 11 weeks and there are literally hundreds of these facilities. The farmers are essentially renting the space for pennies and the investors are killing it! The people growing the stuff have PHD's in Botany !

The pot they are producing is a thousand times more potent than what we smoked in the 60's! But now it's legal!

Just like Phentanol!

The effects of this scourge on our society are evident and yet we allow it.

That's why every cop needs to be highly proficient with firearms.

Randy

[toallmy]

Seams like a good place for the Fed to seize some cash and assets .

[longbow]

I haven't seen Norinco's available for a while now but haven't look hard. Heard pros and cons on Norinco. Kind of appealing that they copy 870's so close parts interchange... as long as the quality is reasonable and guns dependable. For a bear gun loose doesn't really matter as long as it functions when needed. Better sloppy but dependable than tight and accurate but finicky reliability or feeding.

There's also Canuck brand which is quite cheap but haven't seen one and don't know anyone with one. I'd be suspicious though as they are too cheap I think. You do get what you pay for.

First goal is to sort out a decent bear gun then look for the accurate slug gun. I kinda need a good bear gun but just want a good shooter. Needs before wants!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: I was at one of my LGS's yesterday and saw a Mossberg Shotgun, and was showing the girl behind the counter (Nice fully armed girl, named Julie) the difference between how it runs and a Rem 870. She understands the differences and pitfalls now, but daddy still has a 870 Police Magnum which she will take to Front Sight..

I handed it back to her and then noticed it had a 24" bbl with rifle sights. The barrel was rifled! $429! Missed that on the first go round. It had wood furniture that was kind of pathetic but usable none the less.

Something to look at.

Randy

[faustus]

Here is my rifled setup ... 870 Police with a Hastings rifled barrel ... 12ga .... and a Vortex 1-4 x 24 scope ... and Magpul furniture ...

227426

Here my groups with Federal Power Shock sabots at 100 meters.

227427


227428

I needed a higher cheek riser in order to shoot accurately ... and the Magpul stock did that for me. After I upgraded the trigger to a Timney trigger .... I am now happy with the setup ... those Hastings barrels are good quality .... :-)

It is my 120 meter/yards "shotgun only" hunting gun .... it shoots 2 inches high at 50 meters/yards ... and 2 inches low at 120 meters/yards ....

[jmort]

I would have predicted a much tighter group.
I would try the Tru-Ball penetrator.

[longbow]

Not to sound critical but I would have expected tighter groups too with a Hastings barrel and sabot slugs.

That is something we seem to be missing though are posted longer range targets. I hear stories and read posts of stellar long range accuracy with slugs but see few posted targets.

I am wondering just what the accuracy level is and how repeatable. I have shot some pretty tight groups out to 100 yards with round balls from smoothbore but not repeatably by any means so meaningless if they aren't predictable and repeatable.

I'll have to see what is available in the way of solid single shots for my "shooting" gun and possibly a Savage bolt gun. I'll also look at weight because I have no intention of being slapped silly with recoil when I want to shoot for fun or accuracy. If I can't find a used H&R USH then I have to look at options and adding weight most likely. That is one of the reasons the Remington Super Slug came into the conversation... it has a heavy barrel and it is pinned but the gun is pricey unless I can find a used one. Adding weight to a stock is doable, if it is wood anyway, not sure about synthetic. Not sure about clamp on barrel weights? They'd be easy enough to make but not sure how they might affect accuracy and whether recoil would cause sliding. A bull barrel would be much better. I don't mind weight if it helps with the recoil.

As for the bear gun, really the opposite. It can be smoothbore, should be light and easy to carry, short enough to be handy but I don't want one of these 14" barrel things, 18 1/2" is short enough, it can be loose as long as it works every time. If I go new the Mossberg 500 is a definite contender. I'd like a reliable pump gun but a good double barrel gun is still on the list too.

It seems most of the rifled Mossbergs have long barrels and scope mounts. Not suitable for bear guns and likely not top notch accuracy for a shooting gun. A cut down Mossberg barrel with open sights might be decent for double duty but I'd bet accuracy wouldn't compare to a Savage or good single shot.

I'll have to check around and see who has what I can try. Its always good to try before buying.

Longbow

[gpidaho]

Longbow: I picked up a Caldwell Lead Sled for testing with the light break barrel guns. I don't really like the feel as you shoulder this combination but it does do the job of taming the recoil. The model I have is built to hold two 25lb bar bell weights or 50lbs of shot. Good news is they aren't very expensive. If you go with the bear gun first you might give one of these a try to keep from getting slapped silly like your talking about.. Gp

[megasupermagnum]

There's LOTS AND LOTS of internet rumor. Put bluntly, they are full of ****. I've been at it for enough years now to know what is typical, and while I don't doubt someone out there has shot MOA groups, there is no such thing as a MOA slug gun. You will not find a shotgun that will average under 2" groups, the gun design, tolerances, and ammo are just not up to the task. Maybe a custom, but Even the Savages will not outshoot an H&R. I get the luxury of seeing a great number of slug guns this time of year. Every time I go to the range, somebody is shooting one in the fall. Once in a while you see the lucky 2" group, but rifled slug guns as a whole average about 4" at 100 yards if they have a shooter who doesn't flinch. If fastus's gun can average groups like that, that gun is more accurate than most.

Not to get too off topic, but there is no linear dispersion with slugs. Even if you get one to shoot 2" at 100 yards, you more than likely will not shoot 4" at 200 yards. A bit of an extreme example, but the other day I was shooting my muzzleloader with with 330 grain 44 caliber bullets, and it will average 1.75" at 100 yards, some better some worse. At 200 yards, I shot two 5-shot groups. One about 6", the other about 7.5". I am pretty sure the wind was playing with me a bit, but it was not particularly bad. These 44 caliber bullets are more aerodynamic than any shotgun slug, and come out of the gun about 2150 fps. Just something to think about, people need to be more realistic on what a slug gun can actually do, and not just brag.

[faustus]

...

I am wondering just what the accuracy level is and how repeatable. I have shot some pretty tight groups out to 100 yards with round balls from smoothbore but not repeatably by any means so meaningless if they aren't predictable and repeatable.

...

Longbow

Maybe this article will help a bit ...

https://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/guns/shotguns/shooting-tips/2009/11/accuracy-methods-and-gear-tips-competition-slug-shooter

[faustus]

Also, my experience with rifled slug guns is that they are usually very very ammo sensitive.

I had an H&R Ultra Slug Hunter Deluxe in 12ga. I think I spent over $250.- on different commercial sabot slug offerings till I found one slug that shot 4" groups at 100 yards/meters. Some of those sabots did not even hit paper at that distance .... others were giving me 10 inch groups ... and Remington AccuTips finally gave me 4 inch groups out of that gun.

My 870 with Hastings barrel is capable of 2 - 3 inch groups if I do my part .... and with Federal Power Shock sabots ... so I kept the 870 setup and sold the H&R Ultra Slug Hunter.

I could spend more money to test other sabots out of my 870 .... but for my needs 2 -3 inch groups are good enough .... :-)

[faustus]

I would have predicted a much tighter group.
I would try the Tru-Ball penetrator.

Jmort, Tru-Ball slugs are rifled Foster slugs designed for smooth bore shotguns. I would agree with you that they are accurate .... but out of a smooth bore shotgun .... ;)

Same gun ... but with a Hastings smooth bore barrel ... :-)

227459

227460

227461

[Moleman-]

I started out with a smoothbore rifle sighted 1100, eventually upgraded to a rifled hastings barrel using the same saddle mount. Eventually I put a weaver base on the 1100 and ran the front two oversized scope base screws into the barrel extension. Rarely took the barrel off at that point. Tried every slug I could find and found out it shot the early BRI sabots very well and the plain lead winchesters a close 2nd. The early BRI sabotted slugs were hard and didn't expand. Only shot one deer with them before switching to the Winchesters slugs. When Winchester came out with their version of the BRI slug I never tried them but they were supposed to be decent. Stupidly sold the hastings barrel when I moved to an area where rifle hunting was an option. Years later we moved again to a shotgun only area I got another rifled barrel, newer (2010) remington rifled cantilever. It shot worse than the hastings barrel with a saddle mount. Tried several different slugs including Lee and couldn't find one it liked. Rounded up an older mid 80's remington cantilever barrel and it shoots about as good as the old hastings barrel I had. They don't all shoot well, and it may take some trial and error to see what yours likes.

[jmort]

Jmort, Tru-Ball slugs are rifled Foster slugs designed for smooth bore shotguns. I would agree with you that they are accurate .... but out of a smooth bore shotgun .... ;)

Same gun ... but with a Hastings smooth bore barrel ... :-)

227459

227460

227461

That is crazy good accuracy. I promote the Penetrator version.
Who needs rifling.

[jmort]

https://youtu.be/zAq5jNBrRbw

[megasupermagnum]

People who want accuracy beyond 75 yards want rifling. Not center of mass, but hunting accuracy is very tough to come by in a smooth bore past 75 yards. I like Federal, they are probably my favorite ammo brand, but Brenneke invented a better slug in 1898.

[longbow]

faustus:

Thanks for posting that link. I think I have seen that article before but re-read and looked closely at the group sizes. Interestingly the smallest group listed is from a Remington 870 and the largest from a USH. makes one wonder...

The article is somewhat dated at 2009 and I'd have to think there have been advancements in ammunition and guns.

I joined the American Slug Shooting Association site several years ago but nothing seemed to be happening so I quit looking.

Having read that, maybe I should rethink the used Remington 870 Wingmaster with scope and fully rifled barrel. Price seemed a bit high but it is in good condition and has a scope mounted. Its not so expensive it couldn't do for bear service if it didn't live up to accuracy expectations, easy to swap a smoothbore barrel onto it. If I don't move on it soon it will likely sell and it is across the country so a bit of a gamble buying without seeing. Not much choice locally though.

If I could depend on 3" or smaller groups at 100 yards I'd be a happy camper, but... I'd like to be doing it with full bore slugs or wad slugs so almost full bore, not sabot slugs.

Out to 50 yards I'll agree with jmort "Who needs rifling?" It is the beyond about 60 to 70 yards where things change.

What got me going many years ago was an article I'd swear was from Lyman on accuracy with their Foster slug of 4" groups at 100 being doable. Well, I went out and bought a Lyman Foster slug mould and followed Lyman recipes exactly and couldn't keep those Fosters under 8" at 50 yards. By paper patching to bring them up to bore diameter things improved but I still got many fliers. I tried numerous Lyman recipes for that slug with pretty much the same results. Not too many years ago a member here said he had some secrets on Lyman Foster accuracy and told me that the big secret is to get them to slug up evenly by using a copper washer under the slug as a solid base so the slug would obturate evenly. I tried that too in a couple of different recipes with no better results. I gave up on the Lyman Foster.

I have read other claims of similar accuracy (~4" at 100 yards) with Lyman Foster slugs and Lyman sabot slugs from smoothbore but... few if any posted targets. I'd say almost any slug "can" group under 4" at 100 yards... now and again but If you can't shoot repeatable 5 shot groups it doesn't really count.

I've had some very impressive accuracy from factory Foster slugs and some Rapine full bore slugs Greg Sappington sent me, as well as with a few slugs from my home made moulds. However, my good round ball loads are about as accurate out to 50 yards, easier to cast and easier to load so... Again, it is that elusive accuracy out past 60 yards to maybe 125 yards that interests me. That being with full bore slugs.

If I am going to have a .73 cal. rifled gun then I want rifle like accuracy though accuracy expectations would be more like 2" to 3" groups at 100 yards being achievable with careful loading and shooting.

Longbow

[longbow]

What megasupermagnum said "Brenneke invented a better slug in 1898"

[bikerbeans]

If you have a slug gun that will consistently shoot 2" or better at a 100 yards, never sell it. If you are shooting factory ammo with your gun, buy a life time supply. I had a slug gun that would shoot this good with Remington buckhammers and they stopped making them. I couldn't find another slug that would approach the accuracy of the buckhammer.

BB

[faustus]

Longbow,

from my experience, I know that 2 to 3 inch groups are doable with commercial ammo ... though it might take a bit of luck with the particular barrel ... and it might take quite a bit of testing of different commercial sabot slugs. And those Sabot slugs are not cheap .... :-(

With respect to casting and reloading for a rifled slug barrel ... I don't have any real experience .....

However, I did quite a bit of research ... In that article ... one of the slugs that is mentioned again and again is the Hastings Laser Accurate slug. The sub MOA record was shot with that slug. Unfortunately, Hastings ceased production of those sabots a while back.

After doing some research I found that somebody is selling a mold and the wads of those Hastings Laser Accurate slugs ... but under a different name ....or that is at least my understanding.

https://www.slugsrus.com/

So, I ordered the mold and a supply of wads from Slugsrus ... and they ship to Canada.

Unfortunately, I have not had a chance to test those slugs out of my rifled barrel yet. However, from my research ... I believe that those are a good candidate for 2 to 3 inch groups .....and if you are really lucky ... maybe even better groups out of your barrel.

Hope this helps ....
Faustus

[faustus]

Here a couple more points you might want to consider for a pump slug gun ... and especially if you are aiming for accuracy:

1.) The sighting system: I tried ghost rings, rifle sights, a red dot ....and a scope. For 100 yards/meters and beyond I am the most accurate with a scope. I just can't shoot those groups with a red dot or rifle sight.

2.) Removable barrel and accuracy: If the sighting system is not fixed to the barrel ..... and you remove the barrel after sighting in ....there is a chance/risk that the zero has moved when you reinstall. And this might make the difference between a 4" group and a 2" group. For that reason I went with the cantilever option. I can remove that barrel from the gun for cleaning and be confident that my point of impact has not changed.

3.) Cheek weld: Shotguns are not really designed to be shot with a scope. But for myself I need a positive cheek weld to shoot a gun accurately. I went with a Magpul stock because it has the option to install cheek risers in different heights.

4.) Trigger: the trigger on my 870P was sluggish and it was difficult to shoot accurately with it. I would aim ....pull the trigger a bit ....and nothing would happen ... I would aim again ....pull again a bit ... nothing happens ... untill eventually it would break and release the shot. I installed a Timney trigger and things are much better now. Not a precision trigger ... but much better.

Voila .... just my experience....

[gpidaho]

Reading all this here this evening got me going again. I put together ten more of the Slug R Us Hammerhead slugs. I'll try to make it out to the range tomorrow. Boy, those Hammerheads roll crimp real Purdy. Gp

[W.R.Buchanan]

That 2.5" group Faustus shot was pretty good in my estimation. The problem you run into is not so much the gun but the shape and consistency of the projectiles. But we have to keep in mind, these are shotguns and not rifles.

We've talked about this alot here, and my biggest point is that at some point you have to decide what accuracy will fill your needs. Or what will you settle for?

Virtually any shotgun will have enough accuracy for bear protection so we can dismiss that topic, but the functionality of that gun and how well you can run it become more of an issue. Only proper training and practice can improve your ability to actually use the gun in a situation. I have stated in detail why I think the M500 is the way to go in that respect, and I think I'm pretty close on that.

Shooting groups at the range and Rifle Accuracy is another story. And I am starting to get interested in the concept of a real .73 Caliber Rifle.

It appears to me that a single shot rifled shotgun would be inherently the most accurate platform to pursue. I see the barrel and the rifling being the most significant detail, and the question becomes,,, "what is the best setup for a barrel to shoot large caliber projectiles?" IE: Twist Rate, Groove Dia, Groove Depth? Is the barrel designed to shoot conventional slug ammo or would it work with full caliber boolits, or drag stabilized slugs (Russian) where the boolit would be a bore rider and the wad would pick up the Rifling?

What exactly are the bore/groove dias on a rifled shotgun barrel? Does anyone here know?

It seems to me that in order to get the most out of it, the ammunition would need to be as close to conventional Brass Cased Rifle Ammo as possible. Point being, that all the components comprising the round would be held together in the most consistent manner possible. Kind of like a Strait Walled Rifle Case like a .45-70 etc.

Once we've got our round's mechanical configuration figured out then all that is left is working up the load.

There is no reason that I can think of why a .73 Caliber Rifle shouldn't shoot as well as any other Cast Boolit Rifle, and all of the things that apply to any Cast Boolit Rifle would apply here as well.

It just occurred to me that my .45-70 produced a 3 shot 1.75" group once, and that's the best it's done, so what would I expect out of a larger caliber version?

I'd for sure be Powder Coating my Boolits some pretty color (to be determined). [smilie=w:

Randy

[gpidaho]

Randy: I assume that you've read through the thread !2ga FH slug tests. 73cal rifle is pretty much what that's all about. Gp

[lightload]

The 590 has a plastic trigger assembly and a plastic safety. The 590A1 has an aluminum trigger assembly and metal safety. I think that the safety button is steel. Another way that the 590A1 differs from the 590 is that it has a very thick barrel. The 590A1's specs come from the Navy. The barrel is noticeably heavy. I own a 500, 590, and 590A1. The Mossberg 835 Barrel(3.5 inch chamber and vent rib)will fit the 590A1 with the 18 inch barrel but not the other barrel length. My 835 barrel is 24 inches and very handy. It's lighter than the thick wall 590A1 barrel.

In total I own 5 Mossbergs. All have many tool marks in chamber and barrel. For the 590A1 to extract reliably, polishing chamber with 0000 steel wool was necessary.

[Hogtamer]

i got a legit 3" group with Lyman 525s with MY loads from MY gun at 100 yds from bench the last time I shot targets. As most everyone know there is a good deal of variance in shotgun barrels and fit is everything - it takes a good deal of fiddling with various wads and charges. I mentioned the legit 3" group because I have come to accept "relative" accuracy as a better standard and one I can live with in the field: 3" from center of target dot at 100 yds. One may be 3" right, the next 3" left, the next may hit the dot and so on. Considering the size and energy of our big slugs and the target spot on the average hog or deer it's a dead animal either way. Oh, and the above is from a rifled 870, scoped. The USH is not magic in itself and as we have discovered there is easily a .003 variance from gun to gun. I learned from professional pressure testing that our roll crimps can vary a lot in consistency even though they may be perfect to the eye. Powder, primer, hull and components all the same and slug loads weighed on electronic scale. Ever noticed how some hulls of the same batch slugs all the same, most hulls the slug is a tight fit and and a couple slip right in? Weigh some hulls and see how much variance. So we are dealing with less than perfect components loaded with less than precision loaders we are gonna get less than cloverleafs at distance. As close as it gets has been Uncle Dino's plastic base slugs of 1 oz. in 12 ga. and 3/4 oz in 20 ga. I'm confident in your ability LB to find the best loads for YOUR gun, whatever you buy with a rifled barrel. I agree with whoever said "who needs rifled at 50 yds in?" It sure is fun to have both!

Post Script: notice this was the 100th post in this thread. Kent, if you could monetize the free advice you could buy a new gun tomorrow!

[Mr_Sheesh]

W.R.Buchanan - Look up "the 12ga from Hell" thread, IIRC it's maybe started on the AR site but it is ALL over the web - Those are just about what you are thinking of maybe? It's even on the Zombie Squad forums. That could do you nicely here; I'm not sure I want one (well, of COURSE I want one, but more "if I dare get one and mess my shoulder up" probably!) - Could load it gentle though if needed, and maybe make it to use cut down 50BMG brass so you'd have to do some extractor work or ?? For sure could use brass 12 Ga shells.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197214

[longbow]

While I am impressed with what Ed is doing and it still makes me laugh when I read the size and velocity of his projectiles, or maybe giggle is a more correct yet less manly term. However, I am more interested in using shotgun hulls or brass shotgun shells and more or less "normal" slugs.

At one time long ago I had the vision of a side by 12 ga. with rifle sights being loaded with brass shotgun shells filled with powder and nice slugs (think Paradox/Kynoch slugs) and getting 4" to maybe 6" groups at 100 yards using both barrels. More like a fantasy! Okay in a smoothbore, Brenneke Classic slugs. Either way, still fantasy!

I have an article by Ross Seyfried on how long and hard he tried to get an old double barrel Paradox gun to shoot to factory specs, which he did in the end... 5" groups at 100 yards using both barrels.

I have to think that to achieve that with a side by shotgun in my price range shooting slugs from smoothbore barrels would be nothing short of miraculous at this point. Getting smoothbore slug accuracy that good from a single barrel gun is not easy if even truly possible then to try to do it from a double barreled gun that will not be properly regulated, well... not likely!

On the .73 cal. rifle issue, one of our biggest hurdles I think is the forcing cone. A big difference between rifles and shotguns are in cartridge to chamber fit and the leade... shotgun forcing cones are not the best for accuracy and my understanding is that even rifled shotguns have a long "forcing cone".

Gregg Sappington got a reamer made to cut a chamber like a rifle chamber. A chamber cut like that and using brass shotgun shells would likely improve things considerably. Ed Hubel is effectively doing that on steroids and using large thick walled brass cartridges to do it.

Ed's results should answer Randy's question about just what the accuracy potential of a true .73 cal. rifle can be.

One other issue regarding accuracy is (I think anyway) that we are shooting short fat slugs of large diameter. They are ballistically inefficient and with large diameter so any irregularities, voids, etc. can be on a much larger radius than "normal" rifle calibers so more easily causing wobbles or irregularities in flight.

Me, I'll be happy if I can shoot groove diameter slugs or round balls into 6" at 100 yards consistently. Not looking for elusive 1 hole groups, just consistent decent 100 yard accuracy from shotgun slugs.

Not sure how Hogtamer figures I'm going to get you guys to pay me to post free advice but I like the way he thinks! What about it? Maybe he didn't mean it quite that way but...

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

I will shoot my 20" Mossberg at 100 yards with Federal Low Recoil Slugs off the bench and see what it does.

I got 2.5" at 50 yards offhand so maybe there's more there that I just don't know about?

Really the good thing about these shotguns is that anything you hit with one is pretty much toast, which leaves some room for less accuracy.

But like anything else we need to find out what it will do if pushed. Should be a fun day.

Randy

[gpidaho]

Randy's quote at the bottom of his posts is what keeps us all going. I moved from bench shooting jacketed bullets to cast for the sole purpose of adding a few more Jokers to the deck. For now at least, my interest has moved to the shotguns. Why, well it's hard to do in a consistent way. In retirement it's nice to have a project that makes you scratch your head a bit and I really appreciate the helpful way many of you have jumped in to answer the questions of a NewBee slug shooter. Booliteers are a pretty generous group in general but the guys I've met here in this subforum are some of the best. Thanks to all. Now I just have to wrap my head around the idea that a six inch group at 100yrds. just isn't THAT bad. Gp

[longbow]

I have to get out and do some more shooting myself. We've had one of the worst fire seasons ever this year and not only was the local range closed due to fire but I was reluctant to go into the bush as was so dry. Not sure why the forest wasn't closed this year but the government didn't totally ban forest use even though the whole province was on fire. The bush has been closed in the past when conditions were bad. The local fires were all caused by lightning not people though.

Anyway, we are into fall weather now. We had a wet spring, scorching summer and now looking like cool wet fall. Safe to go into the bush and shoot in the wet and cool though.

gp, if you've been following my posts at all you have likely seen that I have been "struggling" with slug accuracy for years. Like I said, I read a lot of what I think are optimistic posts about accuracy using smoothbores. I had too high an expectation of potential accuracy from reading "optimistic" information.

It took me a while to get there but I found that out to 50 yards or maybe stretched to 65/70 yards with smoothbore the plain old round ball is a good performer, easy to cast and easy to load. HB slugs are generally harder to cast (my Lyman Foster is a royal pain!) and in my experience do not generally do any better than round ball loads and mostly worse. I have in the past produced consistent round ball groups at 50 yards of 4" or under. Few home leaded HB slugs or Brenneke clones have been any better. However, at somewhere past 50 yards (maybe 60 to 70 yards) round balls tend to drift due to random spin (picked up by air drag due to imperfections on the surface in my opinion). Sometimes they can do quite well all the way to 100 yards but mostly not so good and unpredictable much past about 60 yards.

I was expecting better accuracy from HB slugs especially at longer ranges but so far they really haven't been that good. I've watched many youtube videos and read whatever I could find and it seems that keeping full bore slug groups under 6" at 100 yards is not that easy. I've watched videos by bubbroundtreeoutdoors, TAOFLAEDERMAUS, Shoot To Kill, and others and I am beginning to think that the elusive 4" group at 100 yards from smoothbore is largely a myth for the home reloader.

I read articles like:

"Slugs are better now. To 75 yards they have become extremely accurate. My current favorite is Brenneke's K.O. , which has an attached plastic wad that works like the tail of a badminton bird to keep the the slug flying straight. Stores around here stock huge piles of K.O.s prior to deer season and sell them for very little. At 75 yards they will shoot 1 ½" to 2" groups all day, which was unheard of when I started deer hunting. At 100 yards they usually print 3"-4" groups but the K.O., like any smoothbore slug, often loses stability somewhere between 75 and 100 yards and one may tumble far off target. Federal's TruBall is another smoothbore slug I have had very good results with but it, too, goes subsonic somewhere past 75 yards and destabilizes."

from PHIL BOURJAILY

and:

"We fired the TruBall ammo from an off-the-shelf Remington 870 (Cylinder Bore, 20-inch barrel) with 1.5-5X Leupold scope to verify the Federal fixed mount results. Ten 5-shot, 50-yard groups were fired using the full-power, 12 gauge TruBall load. The average of all ten, 5-shot groups was 2.3-inches."

from Tom Burczynski

And when I see Brenneke posting groups of 2 1/2" to 3" at 100 yards as their best groups and using sabot slugs and mostly that at 50 yards with the Brenneke Classic coming in at 1.8" at 50 yards (rifled or smoothbore? They don't say.) so that translates to no tighter than 4" at 100 yards and most likely larger groups than that. Kinda puts it in perspective as to what you can expect. Bearing in mind that most Brenneke slugs can be shot through smoothbore or rifled barrels and they would have used the best accuracy available to post group sizes:

https://www.brennekeusa.com/fileadmin/user_upload/brenneke/Downloads/Catalog_USA/Hunting_Catalog_2014.pdf

If the factories can't produce better accuracy than that I doubt home reloaders can. There are many more variables in slug reloading than metallic cartridge reloading. Not saying that 2 1/2" to 3" slug groups are not good, just saying that if that's the best Brenneke can do with rifled barrel and sabot slug and the 4" to 6" groups they post for drag stabilized slugs then I have some work to do to match that much less exceed it with home cast slugs and home assembled ammunition even using a rifled barrel.

So this is why I have resisted buying a rifled gun (that and I'm cheap)... I'm not sure I am going to see enough long range accuracy improvement to bother with. I had a goal of 4" groups at 100 yards from smoothbore. I have not gotten there and am not likely to with home cast and loaded slugs.

As my old boss used to say "When all else fails... lower your expectations." Not sure if that was in reference to my work...?

Longbow

[Mr_Sheesh]

Sample pic from the "12 Ga from Hell" folks; They're using a 50BMG cartridge, straightening it out, then removing the semi rim and threading on a larger rim, to make a LONG huge 12 Ga shell that's maybe 3-3/4" long. 770Gr projectiles sent at 2300-2500FPS easily; 2700 doable but your shoulder won't like it!
227560

[W.R.Buchanan]

Have you seen the "Ravin Crossbow?" They advertise 3" groups at 100 yards! which for a Crossbow is unheard of.

I'm pretty sure we can get that good with our Smooth Bore Shotguns, we just have to find the right projectile.

The problem with most slugs is that they are short and fat. In order to keep them going strait they either have to be spinning or be dragging a parachute behind.

Spinning obviously requires rifling, so the obvious choice is a drag stabilized boolit.

The best looking ones of those that I saw were the Russian ones, so maybe the guys who bought those moulds and wads could shed some light on what they have gotten out of those slugs.

I saw those wads with the hose barbs on the end that fit in the base of the slug at BPI so maybe they are a decent source for those. I think they would be a good way to go.

on another note,,, I really like those little "Less than Lethal" bomb lookin' things" they sell,,,

but they haven't had them in stock lately. :violin:

Randy

[longbow]

I have some of those Russian slugs on hand now. KrakenFan69 sent me 50 which was very nice of him. I tested some last spring but have not been to the range for some time due to very dry (and on fire) forest surrounding us. So far accuracy has not been bad but nothing to write home about. Part of that may be because they cast at 0.727" and my bore is 0.733". I have knurled some up then sized them back to 0.733". They are waiting to be tested.

I am not real happy with the wads either. They are very much like (if not the same as) Gualandi DGS wads which in my opinion are too long. I think they distort so affecting accuracy. I tried some DGS slugs but accuracy at 50 yards was no better than my round ball loads and one slug keyholed. I only had a few to test so not a comprehensive test but...

We'll see how the knurled and sized to bore Russian slugs do.

I still like Brenneke Classic.

I am sure a sabot slug for smoothbore like the Balle Flèche Sauvestre could be made that will provide better accuracy than what we get now but at what cost?

http://americangg.net/tb-abrams-sabot-slug/

And for the home tinkerer like me... can we make them at home? Not likely. Load at home yes but not make. Maybe we just have to accept our limitations or lower our expectations.

I'll take a look for Ravin Crossbows in just a minute. Have not heard of that one.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: I've been curious about those DGS slugs. I was given 5 of them by the outfit that originally made them from Italy at the SHOT Show a few years ago. They are identical to the DGS Slugs that BPI sells now but the wads are Red.

AT Front Sight we saw many wads stuck in targets.(15-50 yards) If you look closely at the pic I posted of my 3 shot in the head box group the center hole is ragged because the wad went thru it too.They all were collapsed totally. I saw none that were distorted beyond that. However when collapsing there is no way to predict if the wad will end up completely symmetrical, which would affect flight or some other shape.

Just have to shoot some and see what happens. or "We'll see what happens!"

I know this can be conquered.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy the reason I like the Brenneke Classic is because of the wad stack ~ hard felt like material with plastic washers on either side. Nothing there to distort. I've seen the Gualandi wads crush somewhat off center which I think is due to the long cushion leg. Not sure why they don't make the attached wad more rigid.

I have posted this before, but many years ago I bought some AQ slugs which had a near solid plastic wad with "rifling" ribs in them and smallish center hole. They didn't crush like a cushion leg and accuracy was very good. I have tried semi successfully to reproduce AQ type slugs using hot melt glue. When they come out good... as in no air pockets/bubbles they shoot very well. It is difficult without a pressure injection system to avoid bubbles and inconsistencies though. A hot melt glue gun is hardly injection moulding! But, like I said when I get a good run they do shoot very well. These are wad slugs. No glue against the bore!

What I should do is buy some 3/4" nylon or polyethylene rod and machine wads to attach to slugs. I think a flat based slug with consistent solid attached wad is about the best we can expect. My opinion anyway. A few years ago I made a mould to cast 6 finned slugs and while they flew nose on they were no more accurate then HB slugs and not as accurate as good attached wad slugs. I don't think fins on a full bore slug that isn't streamlined do much good because they are traveling in a partial vacuum due to the shock wave. An HB skirt or attached wad slug has more drag area exposed when it wobbles a bit so should self correct faster. Full bore finned slugs are not like artillery smoothbore sabot rounds. Again, my opinion.

I'll consider that I have conquered this when I can get consistent 6" or smaller groups at 100 yards from smoothbore or consistent 3" or under groups with rifled gun. I'm not there yet.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

I think you're on the right track on the attached plastic wad idea.

Maybe even making it hollow base so it will expand to fill the bore for a better gas seal.

I think old man Brenneke was way ahead of his time. He even gives out key chains.

Randy

[Lonegun1894]

Excellent thread and thank you all for all the great information. I don't have anything to add, but do have a question that I think might help some. With the many variations in chamber and bore measurements in shotguns, I don't think we have much hope of working up one or two loads that will work in every shotgun, which is what the factories have to try and do. Where I think we as hand loaders have an advantage over factories is that they have to make something that will work ok in every gun out there, while we have the luxury or being able to concentrate on just one shotgun, and tailor the load to it and only it. As has been said, the components still leave a lot to be desired, but we still have the advantage because we can concentrate on one gun. The problem I see is the time and money involved to make this one gun work to our satisfaction. Personally, I mostly use RBs, using a lot of the advice I got from many of you here in this subforum, but I have the luxury of usually not having to shoot past 50 yds, so I have it easy.

[longbow]

Randy... I have the same keychain! 16 ga. I think but the slug is made out of zinc (I think). Pretty sure it isn't lead.

My belief is that slugs should be sized to about 0.735" so they fit pretty much any normal factory gun but of course they need ribs or a collapsible skirt or rings to keep the slug centered but allow it to be swaged to bore diameter. I think that is where then new Russian slugs are in error. They seem to cast undersize at around 0.727".

My heavy skirt TC home made mould is about 0.003" to 0.004" undersize for my 0.733" bore and accuracy reflected that. It is a drop through fit, close but no cigar. After knurling up over bore diameter then sizing to exactly 0.733" accuracy was improved. I think I will find the same for the knurled Russian slugs I have for testing. They are "Paradox" slugs (sort of) but with Gualandi DGS style attached wads. The Gualandi clones and Tusker clones use the same attached wads. I better get those knurled slugs loaded up and tested now the local forest fires are out.

Lonegun1894... Round balls are a good choice certainly to 50 yards or a bit further and I don't think any of us really need to shoot past 50 yards but some of us are driven to shoot to 100 yards. I didn't say I was smart!

In fact round balls are my favourite for shotgun and if I get the rifled "shooting" gun I will be casting a bunch of 0.735" RB's. They did well for me to 50 yards out of a borrowed rifled gun giving about 2" groups which if consistent should be 4" or maybe a bit bigger at 100 yards. And that in a light gun with open sights after I'd been slapped silly (sillier?) by about 35 smoothbore rounds off the bench. I wasn't flinching... not me! I didn't say I was smart!

4" to 6" at 100 yards... predictably and consistently... will do me. Tighter is better but that'll do me!

I'll try 0.678" RB's in shotcups too as they are easier to load. They work well in smoothbore but not sure if the small bearing area will pick up the rifling twist well. Hogtamer had some decent results with them and I think others have. Decent but not spectacular.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

227675227673
227674 don't know where the buckshot picture came from but can't get rid of it! Notice a couple of the wads I was able to find are nice and clean. The rest are smutty as are the hulls. Soooo, some unburned powder going down the pipe, not an efficient load. A faster powder prolly in order.

[megasupermagnum]

Another off topic comment, but I'm sure many will be happy to hear. AQ slugs are back!

[longbow]

Where did you see them? I was under the impression that the Thug Slug was the improved version. I have not tried Thug Slugs but have been meaning to order some. I do like the AQ wad though ~ no cushion leg to distort... like Brenneke Classic.

Much as I like the AQ from my limited experience with them, they are too expensive to "plink" with. If I can't make it at home it is ultimately a no go for any kind of volume shooting. That would apply to Thug Slugs, Brenneke Classic, etc.

However, if they are back I think it is a good thing and I may even order some more to re-test. Got to be sure and know what I have to meet or beat with home brewed slugs!

Longbow

[Tripplebeards]

I tried 6 different loads in my savage 220 after I bedded it and floated the barrel. Only one load grouped over 2" at a 100 yards. All the others were 3/4" to 1.7" depending on the brand. All were saboted ballistic tip type slugs I tried. This of course was done with a Nikon monarch 2.5x10 on a lead sled. Contrary to what some posters have stated it is possible to have a sub MOA slug gun you just have to put the time in and be lucky enough to find the right load. Same as my 77/44. Most claim sub MOA isn't possible. I found two loads with cast that will shoot sub MOA. I've also put tons of bench time in (instead of Internet browsing,lol) along a lot of load work and accurizing the rifle. The biggest thing is you need to have the skill to shoot sub MOA to begin with.

[Tripplebeards]

I think you're on the right track on the attached plastic wad idea.

Maybe even making it hollow base so it will expand to fill the bore for a better gas seal.

I think old man Brenneke was way ahead of his time. He even gives out key chains.

Randy

I need one of those!

[EMC45]

Here is a 3 round group I shot at 50 yds (off a bag) in a 20 ga Remington Express (wife's). They were Remington Slugger slugs in bulk pack from WalMart a buddy had given me. Smooth bore barrel with Carlson $12 IC screw in choke.227688

[bikerbeans]

I tried 6 different loads in my savage 220 after I bedded it and floated the barrel. Only one load grouped over 2" at a 100 yards. All the others were 3/4" to 1.7" depending on the brand. All were saboted ballistic tip type slugs I tried. This of course was done with a Nikon monarch 2.5x10 on a lead sled. Contrary to what some posters have stated it is possible to have a sub MOA slug gun you just have to put the time in and be lucky enough to find the right load. Same as my 77/44. Most claim sub MOA isn't possible. I found two loads with cast that will shoot sub MOA. I've also put tons of bench time in (instead of Internet browsing,lol) along a lot of load work and accurizing the rifle. The biggest thing is you need to have the skill to shoot sub MOA to begin with.

Target pics?

BB

[toallmy]

Slug gun shooting has drove me crazy for at least 20 years since I moved to a no rifle for deer hunting county . I'm going to go on a little rant so be prepared ! I can use a scope mounted cross bow , scoop mounted rifled smokeless inline rifle , and a fully rifled bolt action slug rifle with a scope , but I can't use my 30-30 or a 3006 . I have spent many thousands of dollars and wasted to much time playing with slugs and buckshot over the years to come to the conclusion that if you don't practice with and know what you're firearm is capable of you are the danger not the firearm . I have seen a lot of game with wounds infected dying a miserable death , be realistic with your expectations .

[EMC45]

Here's the second group after I figured out where to put the bead. I walked it up the paster to center it. That's 2 in one hole.227709

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings, just by taking 1/2 second or 1 second more to aim will make all the difference, don't be in a rush to pull the trigger.

[toallmy]

Longbow just to get back on topic , watcha been looking at . I think we all are enjoying helping you spend some money .[smilie=s:

[megasupermagnum]

The AQ slugs are at Ballistic Products. Price is $17 for 25, so too expensive for target shooting.

Tripplebeards, if you ever make it out to central MN, I'll be glad to take you out to the range. I just don't think you have a sub MOA slug gun. As was posted, the best confirmed group ever shot with the ASSA was not even 3/4", and that was only a single group, not an average. I don't know why someone would think a Ruger 77/44 couldn't shoot that well. It's a proper rifle, weren't they known for surprisingly good accuracy when they came out? A slug gun just has too many variables to shoot sub MOA. If you built a gun with a proper throat, good crown, ammo that was built to fit the barrel, you could. That wouldn't be a slug gun though, that would be a rifle.

[longbow]

Yeah I think I paid $15.00 Canadian for 25 last time and that was a few years ago. Regardless, too much for target or practice. If anyone is wondering though I got sub 6" groups at 100 yards from my Browning BPS by the time I finished the box. They shot well from the beginning. I used BPI load data with Unique but... I do not recall if I kept the specifics and that's all I remember. I have the BPI load data sheets still though... lots of Unique loads.

Yes, what am I looking at? Well, currently if I go new likely a Stoeger side by coachgun or Mossberg 500 for bear use. For my shooter the jury is still out. It doesn't have to be a repeater so a good single shot platform is fine but the H&R USH is no more. I may consider a Savage 212, or Remington 870 since they seem to get good accuracy reviews. I am thinking that if I get my but in gear the used 870 Wingmaster with fully rifled barrel might not be a bad choice. The Remington 870 Superslug is nice with the heavy barrel but a bit pricey.

We'll see in a bit. More concerned with a bear gun to begin with.

Longbow

[gpidaho]

Beginners luck today. Five shot group at forty five yards Lee seven eights ounce slugshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180925/545b1b3a10bc18f67edded5d9101ee9b.jpg


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[gpidaho]

Fun day at the range today, just fired shotguns for a change. First time using the NEF heavy barrel rifled 12ga to shoot groups. I posted the best five round group above. A welcome surprise was that in this instance the Lee 7/8th inch slugs out shot everything else I tried including more expensive options. I fired three five shot groups using Hammerhead slug-wad combinations and best went just over seven inches the other two groups were very widely spread. This is in no way the fault of the Slugs R Us product in my opinion. Likely just my inexperience at slug loading. Some .678 RBs worked reasonably and The 370gr Lyman 50cal. Maxi in the hammerhead sabots looks like it deserves another try. In the 410 the .395 RBs worked better than the 360s using both three and four ball loads. I'll put together some more of the Lee Key Slug rounds and try them out at 100yrds. next outing as one group could be just good luck. My friend Ken Campbell over at the CBA told me "Sometimes fliers fly in" and I believe it. Gp

[W.R.Buchanan]

. The biggest thing is you need to have the skill to shoot sub MOA to begin with.

This is so true!

Randy

[Blood Trail]

I have an 835 with cantilever scope mount in my arsenal of slug guns. Very solid weapon.


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[longbow]

Nice shooting Gp! Looking good! best group or not that is a bragging group. Problem is now you have to do it again!

I just posted on another thread that so far I've done better with the Lee 1 oz. than 7/8 oz. which is opposite to what most people find. Also, both seem to shoot better when I size them to remove taper then paper patch back up to snug fit. I really believe they have too much taper.

Hahaha! I like it "Sometimes fliers fly in"... so true! that's why now you got to do it again! That's often my problem... the doing it again bit! One good group just doesn't cut it!

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

I've often thought about asking Tom with Accurate molds if he would modify a Lee slug mold. There used to be a slug called the Buckbuster that shot very well for me. It was basically a straight sided Lee slug, and cavity filled with some kind of silicone or glue.

[longbow]

BT:

Where have you been?

I asked that question early on in this thread. There are some good deals on Mossbergs with 3 1/2" chambers. I think 535's though. Nonetheless, the jump to rifling is the same which was the question... how is slug accuracy with your 835? I would figure that extra jump to rifling would be detrimental to accuracy but you know what? I've been wrong a time or two before! Now that's assuming using 2 3/4" or 3" hulls. Not sure I want to be using full loaded 3 1/2" hulls when shooting for fun! I guess that's what filler wads are for. Do you use 3 1/2" hulls or does it matter?

Longbow

[Blood Trail]

BT:

Where have you been?

I asked that question early on in this thread. There are some good deals on Mossbergs with 3 1/2" chambers. I think 535's though. Nonetheless, the jump to rifling is the same which was the question... how is slug accuracy with your 835? I would figure that extra jump to rifling would be detrimental to accuracy but you know what? I've been wrong a time or two before! Now that's assuming using 2 3/4" or 3" hulls. Not sure I want to be using full loaded 3 1/2" hulls when shooting for fun! I guess that's what filler wads are for. Do you use 3 1/2" hulls or does it matter?

Longbow

LB,

I’ve extensively tested the “jump theory” and like many shotgun experts, I can’t tell the difference in accuracy from 2.75” to 3.5” hulls. Many think it’s a myth and I’m leaning towards that too.

For example, my 220 shoots tighter groups with 2.75” than it does with 3” accutips.

As far as accuracy, I’m happy with the results from my 835. I believe the newer Mossberg done away with the ported barrels which I think is a plus.

Some slugs, like lightfields and hammerheads, don’t like ported barrels. SlugRUs even out a disclaimer about ported barrels on their website.


I’ve shot hammerhead slugs side by side with my USH and while the groups where excellent out of my 835, I did notice very slight keyholing.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180925/317b32744768f8cc894ab42aa1f9d4a4.jpg


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[W.R.Buchanan]

So I decide to google 3.5" slugs and came up with this off the Shotgun World website.

This guy is loading 3.5" slugs and is getting some pretty unbelievable results. And I mean "unbelievable" in the literal sense of the word! Tell me what you think.


I am sure there are other manufacturers out there loading the 3.5 inch slug. I am licensed to manufacture ammunition, so I can load and sell, the Lyman sabot slugs out of my shop. I have been doing this for about 15 years now. I have been loading the 3.5 inch lyman sabots for about 8 years now. I have one man shooting a 4 inch group at 250 yards with the 3.5 sabot slugs. No one else has tried to shoot that far that I load for. I sell them in bags of 25 for $25, so people can sight in, and still have enough slugs to hunt with. The 2.75 and 3 inch sabots I sell 25 for $20.

That is better than 99.9% of shooters can do with a scope sighted sub MOA rifle. It seems a little exaggerated to me?

Randy

[toallmy]

I'm still working on a honest 4 inch 100 yard home made load out of a rifled slug gun .

[Hogtamer]

gp, great job! Just don't think you can post that group without details. I've killed a deer and three hogs with the 7/8 and they make up the bulk of my SHTF stash.

[gpidaho]

Randy: You don't think the man would stoop to telling a fib to get a sale do you? HT: Pretty darn simple just used Lee's suggested load (told you all I was new at this) LOL Rem. STS Hull, Rem 209 primer, Red Dot @ 22gr.and BPI LO78 wad, Fold crimp Seemed like plenty of a charge. The shape of the key was well indented into the wad and petals were sheared off. The gas seal looked brand new so no gas blow by.Gp

[bikerbeans]

The BC of a lyman 12ga sabot slug is 0.086. I ran the numbers with 1,800 fps at 10' from the muzzle. If you zeroed at 125 yards that slug would drop almost 4' from 125 to 250 yards. The wind drift at 250 yards is also a real problem, plus at least half the flight is in the transonic and subsonic region. I guess anything is possible, think Billy Dixon at Adobe Walls, but not very likely.

Another thought is what happens to the wad/shotcup when you really push it? How much rotation of the wad is actually imparted to the slug?

BB

[megasupermagnum]

No kidding. With a mild wind of 10 MPH, the wind drift is about 4 feet at 250 yards. Maybe the guy shooting groups meant 4', but mistakenly put 4". You can certainly shoot slugs at long range for fun, I do it quite often. 200 yards is no big deal on a steel plate, and I even take it out to 300 yards. I've tried to take it out to 650 yards, but there is more luck involved at that range than anything else. While they may not be hunting accurate that far, rifled shotguns sure are fun at long range where smooth bore slugs just tumble.

[longbow]

Billy Dixon indeed! Pish posh! he was using one of those old fashion black powder guns. With a modern smokeless load in a fancy shotgun a guy could do way better.:-P Right!?! This guy obviously is. He wouldn't stretch the truth a bit would he? Yeah, likely more like 4'.

But as BB says "...anything is possible". Just because I can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

Gp are you using pure (or very soft) lead for your Lee slugs? So far I've only used range scrap. Both Lee and Lyman recommend soft lead. That probably allows both slugging up to match the bore and "reforming" some to match wad petals.

Megasupermagnum you don't happen to have any of those old Buckbusters around do you? I have read about those and I believe I have a reloading article from when they first came out. I'd like to know diameter. As I said, I believe the Lee slugs have too much taper to them and would be better if they tapered at the rate of typical birdshot wad petals which is something like 0.003" over the length. If the slug tape matched that the wad petals should be compressed nice and even like which I think has to be a good thing. Then I'd be expecting 4" groups at 250 yards for sure!

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

I do still have about 20, I've been saving them just for the purpose of having a mold cut. They were swaged, but there is no reason you couldn't cast them. The sides have no visible taper. They have a SWC shoulder, although the nose is a lot like the LEE. Buckbusters have a "hollow point", if you can call it that; they don't expand one bit. Not in an animal, not in water, not in mud. Although I believe the buckbuster slugs were made for rifled barrels, I remember shooting them out of the smooth bore with acceptable accuracy. One interesting thing, the paper they send of load data, they say you can actually tune up or down from what's listed by looking at the recovered wads. They say to go up until the wad petals start getting sheared off, presumably by the forcing cone. I used them for a few years, I bought a bunch that went on sale after they went out of business.

[longbow]

What do the mic for diameter? That is the critical point. I've read they shot well so they much have had a good fit with some or several wads.

From what i've seen, the wad petals (fit to bore and toughness of plastic), cushion leg (does it distort against the bottom of the shotcup? Does the bottom of the shotcup distort or crack?) and gas seal all play a big part.

I've seen blown gas seals at the lip, distorted and burned gas seals because they distorted at the cushion leg, totally destroyed cushion legs, cracked shotcup bottoms, burned shotcup petals, sheared, crushed and wrinkled shotcup petals and completely sheared/torn off shotcup petals. One wad fails miserably but another with the same slug and powder charge doesn't.

Slug fit in wad/bore of course is a major player here.

Anyway, I digress... if you have some Buckbuster slugs are you able to mic the diameter at nose and base? I'd really like to know diameter and if there is a taper.

BPI makes a wad slug... or used to anyway that I think looked a lot like the Buckbuster. I haven't ordered any but if they still have them I should, if they are available in Canada. Again, not sure of diameter but they are pretty sharp people so I have to think the slug is a good fit in the recommended wad.

I know the nose and skirt diameter of Lyman sabot slugs but have not checked back to see if if matches wad petal taper. While I haven't tried the Lyman sabot slug, I have found several at the range and in every case the skirt has collapsed noticeably and has a short cylindrical "shank" after firing. Of course these are all soft lead. The same slug cast from wheelweights likely doesn't slug up near as much. That slugging up may be one reason for reported accuracy... it slugs up to fit whatever the barrel diameter is. I mean 4" groups at 250 yards is pretty good!

But yes, please mic them.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

Ok I measured a slug today. I tried my best to get the filler out of the base, but that stuff is in there good. Maybe I'll try some heat if it matters. I did get all the outer dimensions pretty close, and kind of guessed on the hollow base by weight. The actual weight of this slug was 433 grains. You will notice a taper of .002", I have to wonder if that's not just a manufacturing defect, or maybe it was dropped or something. Who knows, for our purposes, the diameter is a straight .683". You might not see it in the picture, but the filler actually creates a slight concave shape, it's not perfectly flat.

227848
227849
227850

[megasupermagnum]

I found a slug I had recovered from mud/clay years ago. Zero expansion at all. Notice that there is a distinct vertical line on the side, there are 4 of them. Apparently they expand and extrude into the wad petal cuts. That should lock them in for a rifled barrel. I kept digging, I had to find the data where they advised load tuning. The pink paper came in every box, but the white was an extra that was only in one or two I had. Any chance they would still allow putting that in reloading data now?:p

227851227852227853227854

[pashiner]

Don't rule out the possibility that the magic combination that works best for you may not make any sense at all. I've been experimenting for quite some time with a scoped mossberg 535 and a variety of barrels and chokes, both rifled and smoothbore, achieving mediocre results, and often inconsistent to boot. Still fun shooting and reloading. My el-cheapo truck gun (stevens 320...a $100-$150 Chinese made beater) handily out shoots it. With an 18.5 inch cylinder bore barrel and factory plastic ghost ring sights, it holds a 3-4 inch group at 50 yds offhand with cheap foster slugs, and has never malfunctioned. It can do neat little clover leafs from a bench...but my shooting suffers after a box or two. I really didn't want it to become my favorite slug gun, but those results have been hard to match with any shotgun I've owned or borrowed. Go figure.

[longbow]

Megasupermagnum... you are the man! Thanks for that.

By all means if you have load data please scan and share or PM it or e-mail or whatever. I am an information junky and save every shred of slug reloading info I can get my hands on!

If the slugs don't expand I'm not sure how they would get wad petal marks on them but...

That and if they are hard how would they be swaged? I wonder if they might be cast to near shape then swaged to final shape? Hard to cast a slug with HP and HB! Maybe heat treated after forming?

pashiner: Yes of course you are correct. There are so many variable in shoguns that what works for one may not even be close in another but I think we start with good slug loads that fit the bore properly and well loaded and crimped hulls. That takes care of that end about as well as we can. Beyond that there is the rattle fit of many pumps, wild bore diameter variations, different forcing cones, the variety of hulls and wads, the list goes on as you well know!

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

I'm sure they deform, they are made of pure lead. I was just trying to show how pointless that tiny little hollow point is, it does nothing. That slug was more than likely recovered from 200 yards, any closer and it would be a mangled ball. If I were to have a mold made for it, it would be flat nosed. I'll have to take the filler out of the base and see if there is any magic in there. I also wonder if the slight concave base makes it fill out the bore better by expanding outwards. It's a good slug design though, stable all the way to target. I was shooting these the first time I tried 300 yards on a steel plate. BRI slugs don't even get to 200 yards before taking a random path. Buckbusters are stable at 300 yards.

[longbow]

Okay, I misunderstood then. Thought you were saying the slug was hard so didn't deform.

I can alter my push out mould HB pin and make a new nose form to match (without HP). In fact my Nessler Balle nose form may be pretty close as is. My TC nose form is also pretty close though TC not RNFP but likely similar length.

I'd bet the filler is simply hot melt glue. When I fill my HB slugs nose down I get the same concave base glue to glue shrinkage. Normally what I do now is to overfill then invert the slug quickly base down onto an oiled steel bar. I push down to squeeze out excess glue then leave the slug for glue to cool and harden up. That results in even flat bases that are pretty consistent. Any extra glue is very thin "flashing" and easy to remove.

I doubt there is any "magic" just a nice HB likely as you have shown.

Not sure if the concave base is intentional or just is, like mine. It may be e benefit whether intentional or not. I've had some thick skirt HB slugs I made bell at the bottom edge of the skirt from wads forcing in and swelling. These were not filled. With the Buckbuster base that would be somewhat controlled and may help swell the skirt outwards.

I'll make some mould mod's then cast some. I'll knurl up, since the mould casts exactly 0.729", then size back to my 0.733" bore diameter.

The skirt is thinner than I like but with filler likely not an issue.

Okay I looked up the BPI wad slugs and while they are wad slugs they are not the same as the Buckbuster. That and they are 0.678" diameter so smaller. And not only are AQ's back but they have a non-toxic AQ as well that looks quite nice. RNFP slug on an AQ wad.

Looks like I need a plastic injection moulding system to make wads! Good luck with that!

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

How about that uncle dino? Maybe we could talk him into doing a run of buckbusters?

[Hogtamer]

mega, have you tried the plastic base 1 oz slugs he makes? They are easy to load, inexpensive and very accurate. I purposely neck shot this dinky buck to see if I could do it. 86 yds ranged after he collapsed on the spot. 2 - 3 inch groups are normal for me with this slug but at 65 I'm not the best shot in the world anymore! The slug is a couple thou. smaller than the plastic which takes the rifling so no leading.227877

[megasupermagnum]

No, never had a need, and have too many other slug projects in the work to try them now.

[longbow]

What I plan to try are some nice bore sized slugs with the same plastic gas seal uncle D uses on the base so hybrid HB/Brenneke slug for smoothbore. BPI sells them at pretty reasonable prices.

Longbow

[longbow]

Well, I am leaning heavily into the Mossberg camp at this time. Partly due to reports of Mossberg reliability and functionality but also because there are some good deals on 3 in 1 combos for both the Mossberg 500 and 535. The 500's run $661.00 Canadian and the 535's run $698.00 Canadian.

So, tell me again why I shouldn't go with the 535. I load mostly 2 3/4" hulls so that is a large jump. I wouldn't worry much in smoothbore but for rifled gun is that a bad thing?

BT commented on there not being any issue there in his opinion but I'm not sure he was shooting 2 3/4" hulls in 3 1/2" chamber. A 3" in 3 1/2" chamber isn't so bad. I don't want to be restricted to 3" and/or 3 1/2" hulls.

If there is no good reason not to get the 535 then that seems like the way to go for a few bucks extra allowing the use of 2 3/4", 3" and 3 1/2" hulls plus allowing somewhat more pressure. I'm looking at what I'd get for the money and it is hard to beat either way. Both deals come with 28" vent rib barrel with fiber optic sight, 22" vent rib barrel with adjustable fiber optic sights and 24" fully rifled barrel with cantilever scope mount. I'd rather not use a scope for general shooting but... I could live with it and if I want to shorten the barrel to say 22" or 20" it's easy going with no front sight to remount.

If there is any doubt about the 535 and jump to bore then I'd just go with the 500. It is a proven platform that I am sure will do what I want.

Are there any sight options instead of a scope? Red dot? Tube site? Options? If not then a good scope recommendation if anyone has one.

Whatever advice you have, I am listening!

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

This is coming as a lifelong waterfowl hunter. The only purpose of a 3 1/2" 12 gauge is to fit more steel shot. I know I'll get some negative comments for this, but both guns are capable of the same pressure. Structurally, they are the same. Over in europe, ammo is loaded up to a max 15,229 psi (1050 BAR) for any length 12 gauge. Their guns aren't stronger, SAMMI is just overly conservative. SAMMI is voluntary too, Remington hyper sonic 3" are loaded to 1050 BAR, it's listed right on the shell. I've since given up on steel shot. No matter how much or how fast you push it, it's still a loosing battle. I've seen very little ducks this year, but the couple I shot were with 1 1/2 oz #5 bismuth in a 3" shell. It is a nice step up from steel shot, and doesn't kick like a 3 1/2" does. I've shot an unusual number of geese, all with the 10 gauge. I made shots I know I wouldn't with any 12 gauge steel shot. 1 7/8 oz of #B bismuth has me impressed. If you want more, get a 10 gauge. I tried for years with 12 gauge and failed to do what I did in a month once I got into 10 gauge. The 11.5 pound Mag 10 is the perfect gun for launching these loads. You will be flinching after a round of 3 1/2" shells in the 535.

As a turkey hunter, I've found the most range you can get from a 12 gauge will be from a load from 1 3/4 oz to 2 ounce, with lead shot. That fits with plenty of room in a 3". The only 3 1/2" guns I've spent years shooting have been an 870 super mag and a Benelli Nova. I can't run either as effectively as a Mossberg 500. The stroke on the Nova is longer than 3 1/2", it's more like 4". That makes a big difference when most of your shooting is done on a 3" pump.

I can't say anything about the slug accuracy, as the more I try and reduce that jump, the more I get the same results.

Is $661 typical of shotguns in Canada? I figured shipping added cost, but that's pretty steep. You would know a good deal. I'd go for the 500. I do know that a 500 barrel WILL fit on a 535.

[gpidaho]

Longbow: I missed it until rereading posts this evening. Yes, the Lee slugs were cast of soft lead and so were my original full bore round balls. the .735s leaded the bore. The next batch I cast (haven't shot yet) are wheel weights 4 to 1 with soft and powder coated. It wasn't that hard to clean the lead out of the smooth bore. Not nearly like when I fired the factory slugs in the rifled barrel. You see guys, I am learning a little. LOL Gp

[bikerbeans]

LB,

3 1/2" hulls for slugs just means another half inch of wad column, which isn't like to improve your accuracy.

I don't know what used pumps go for in Canada but would two used 500s be close to the same money as one new 500 or 535? One 500 with rifled barrel and one with a 28" vent rib with tubes? This me showing my bias against switch barrel guns.

BB

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: I don't see any use for the 3 1/2" shells as they are going to kick you silly.

You know I've got 2 M500's so that's where I'm at . With those Federal Maximum Slugs at 1610 FPS and a TKO of 73.+ you have enough gun for anything you'd ever find in Canada.

If I was you before I bought a new one for $661 CA I believe I would scour all the gun shops and see if I couldn't find a used one for a couple hundred $. That way you'd have money left for Magpul Furniture and maybe barrel porting. Buying a new one you are just going to want to change out a bunch of stuff you just paid good money for.

I just signed up for my 4 Day Tactical Shotgun Class at Front Sight for the 22nd of this month. I will be shooting 300 #8's 165 00 Bucks and 70 Slugs,,, That's over 500 rounds in 4 days! The gun has to fit and the barrel work had to be there before I would even consider doing this.

I realize you probably won't be shooting that much in that short a time period but even so the gun fit and function has to be right or the gun will beat the snot out of you, and you won't want to play with it. If the factory furniture doesn't fit you you will want to change it out. Mine beat me silly before I changed.

The M500 is also a 3" chambered gun, so If you had delusions of shooting that stuff you'd be covered.

Mossberg sells Rifled barrels so you could add that on down the road if you wanted.

As far as sights I like the Green Fiber Optic front sight on mine alot. If you decided you wanted an Optic I see no reason to go beyond a Red Dot sight as your max range (100yds) won't test a red dot even a little. I shoot to 300 all the time with any of my Carbines, and it is easy to hit a man sized target at 300 with a red dot.

On Red Dots I favor the Bushnell TRS 25 as it is the best bang for your buck out there and can be routinely be gotten for <$90 US. I have 6 of them and they all work perfectly.

So that's my .02.

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

For optics, red dots are ok, but I've gone away from them over time. For me anyway, they don't offer anything that open sights don't do for cheaper, and point more naturally. I have about 8 scopes, 6 of which are Leupold 1-4x scopes, all with the turkey plex reticle. Best hunting scope out there if you ask me. For long range slug target shooting, a 2-7x might be a better choice.

[gpidaho]

I have a Burris Droptine slug gun 2-7X35 on the NEF and Vortex Strikefire dot scopes on two other slug shooters. I like the no question warranties, If I bust them they will fix them. Gp

[longbow]

Okay then I guess I'll drop the 535 and stick with the 500.

Randy's comment "...I would scour all the gun shops and see if I couldn't find a used one for a couple hundred $..." makes me chuckle. There is one local gunshop with little in the way of used anything much less shotguns... they do do shotguns. The next closest gun shop is 3 to 4 hours away. That and "...for a couple hundred hundred $" I'd be lucky to find a used single shot for a couple hundred $. Well maybe $150.00 to $200.00.

A new Mossberg 500 wood with vent rib runs $500.00. Since I live in a small rural area used guns are a bit scarce so used would likely be ordered on-line so no handling and buying based on pics and words. There are gun auction sites with used guns and some look okay and at reasonable prices but buying is sight unseen unless a guy can get to Vancouver (8 hrs.), Calgary (7 hours), Toronto (3 to 4 days)... you get the drift.

I think I'll start putting out feelers for used 500's. As Randy says, if I can find one I can buy a rifled barrel later. But again for $661.00 I get 3 barrels and a brand new gun so...

I agree with BB too so even if I do go the combo route new I may be able to pick up a used one later and have dedicated slug gun.

Longbow

[gpidaho]

Longbow: I think you're on the right track. Get the three barrel combo and then look for a used gun to go along with it. That way you'll have a Sunday gun and truck gun and three new barrels to work with. Gp

[megasupermagnum]

If even the most basic model is $500, that combo is not too bad. Here a basic Mossberg runs about $325. I've never seen a 3 barrel combo, but the slug/field combo runs about $400. Barrels can be had for $100-$150, and shipping to Canada would add a lot. That's one nice thing about the 500 though, you can find people selling new in box barrels for half price of brand new in store. Nothing wrong with used either, Those older plain fixed choke barrels go for cheap, and point better for me than the new barrels.

[toallmy]

A couple years ago I picked up a Mossberg 500 20 gage with extra rifled barrel for the cost of less than a rifled barrel off of gun broker . Deals are out there , but not usually when you want .

[longbow]

I'll start looking for used again. There are sites in Canada but for the most part any guns I've seen that I am interested in are not where I can go look and touch so have to buy on pics and trust. A good dealer should be trustworthy if they have decent used guns.

Yup, I'm thinking the Mossberg 500 is the way to go however I do it.

if rifled slug barrel accuracy is not up to my relatively low standards then I'll look for a solid single shot or maybe splurge and get into the Savage bolt gun. I would like an H&R USH but unlikely to find one in Canada. TC is nice but pricey and again the chances of finding a used one here are nil.

Not sure about the Remington Ultra slug for accuracy. I like the heavy pinned barrel. I've not read any accuracy reports but with pinned barrel it should be better than without. However, new they are very pricey and unlikely to find used. Maybe but again at distance if there is one.

As for cost, the Canadian dollar is about $0.75 to $0.80 US to put it in perspective. So $600.00 CDN is about $450.00 US. Overall, prices are similar.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB the thing about M500's is unless the gun has visually been abused, as long as it looks good on the exterior it is probably alright on the inside. There is not that much going on inside, and they are super easy to work on.

There is the Trigger/Fire Control unit which comes out of the gun by pushing out one pin. Really nothing to wear in that unit.

There is the bolt and bolt latch which are the only two machined parts,

Then there is the two stamped Action Bars and the two Shell Stops and the lifter and that's about it. None of these parts are very expensive, and it is unlikely that they are worn out unless the gun shows alot of exterior wear. The gun would literally need 10-15,000 rounds run thru it to be used up..

The pic of the safety in my above post is a nice addition from Brownell's and cost about $12-15 The Velcro Side Saddle was $15 Magpul Stock and Fore End was @$100.

Anyway fish around and see what you can come up with. I will help anyway I can.

Randy

[centershot]

longbow, I was an 870 guy for a lot of years but a yearning for a 20 ga. and Pandy's posts regarding the M500 caused me to buy TWO of them last month, a 12 and a 20! I'm not sorry! Lightweight, smooth, slick handling guns! The 12 came with 3 barrels; 28" VR ported, 24" rifled cantilever slug ported, and a 20" VR ported. I mounted a Leupold 1-4 VX1 shotgun scope on it, works great! An M500 combo might be just what you're looking for!

[longbow]

Well, further investigation at Elwood Epps in Ontario is telling me that both Remington and Mossberg 3 1/2" chambered guns use 3" chamber slug barrels so no disadvantage there for slug shooting. At the other extreme I wonder if those longer actions handle 2" hulls... not that I'd likely shoot many but nice to have the ability. I am more likely to shoot short hulls than 3 1/2" hulls.

So, if I can find a good used 3 1/2" gun there is no disadvantage for slug shooting since chambers are 3". Just thinking there may be more chance of finding a used Mossberg 3 barrel combo in 3 1/2" because someone bought it mostly for waterfowl hunting but didn't like the recoil... maybe?

An option anyway unless there are other disadvantages?

If I buy new then likely the Mossberg 500 3 barrel combo. So far cheapest new I have found is $575 CDN which isn't bad.

I am currently out of work for a bit though so no toy money. It'll come though!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: What does $575 CDN convert to in US$? Sounds like about $425-450?

If so that's the best I could do at my LGS that has these in stock,,, and they like me!

Our blazing economy will bleed over into your neck of the woods soon. be patient. Trump actually likes Canadians, he just has a small problem with Trudeau, which I'd bet you probably do too?

Your country has the same problem that California and several other states have with one or two big cities controlling the vote for the whole state. In your case I believe it is the "French Part?"

Better hurry up on the M500 though as I will have these Lyman Slugs figured out shortly. I mean really? do the kids really need to eat that much?

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

Google says $575 CAD = $441 USD. That's a very good deal anywhere.

[longbow]

That's the reason I was looking at the Remington and Mossberg combos. The Mossberg 500 or 535 is a better deal though as they are less expensive and include 3 barrels where the Remington is only 2 barrels.

It looks like the Mossberg 500 will be cheaper and better than the Remington 870 and the 535 is between but still with 3 barrels. Since the slug barrels have 3" chambers, I'm told, there is no reason not to get a 3 1/2" gun if there is a good used one about.

I'll probably go with a new 500 though. Just watch though, by the time I am working and have toy money the 3 barrel combo deal will be gone!

[Walks]

870 ALL THE WAY.

I shot TRAP with an 870TB 12 Gauge from 1966 to 1971 almost every weekend. Anywhere from 200 to 500 rounds a weekend. The next year my DAD gave me an 870MAG 12 GAUGE for GOOSE Hunting. I added a 26"SKEET bbl & shot a lot of Skeet with it. Cleaned them after every weekend, and completely stripped them down for a real good cleaning every 3-4 months. I added another 28" MODIFIED bbl for Pheasant Hunting. I never had a problem shooting 2.75" shells in the 3" chamber. Being able to switch bbls is a real asset. I later purchased a 28" REMCHOKE bbl to use in those two GUNS and an 870 12GA Police CHP Surplused 2.75" Gun. At lot more then 100,000 rounds thru those guns with never a BREAKAGE.
Even bought an 870 12 GAUGE EXPRESS COMBO with a 26" REMCHOKE bbl & 20" cylinder bore bbl with Rifled Sights when they came out in 1987.
I also own a 20GA 870 SKEET GUN with an extra 28" MODIFIED bbl and another 870 20 GA EXPRESS with a 26" REMCHOKE BBL.

I owned a Mossberg for about 6 months. Broke twice. Sold it a $10. loss.

I worked at 2 different GUN SHOPS from 1986 - 1998. In the old days in CA, before the shooting in STOCKTON, CA (1989) you could still buy a Long Gun and walk out the door with it immediately.

The week before the DOVE opener, we would sell a dozen Shotguns a day, almost always with a short case of DOVE ammo. The Mossbergs out sold the REMINGTON'S 3 to 1.

The Monday/Tuesday AFTER the DOVE Opener, every 3rd Mossberg came back in for warranty repair. Broken before 250 rds were fired.

In 12 years I never saw a REMINGTON 870 brought in for repair.

I also own WINCHESTER'S; a Model 24 SxS 12GA, 1300 RIOT GUN 12 GA, 3 Model 12's & 3 Model 1897's. One ITHACA 37, a SAVAGE 311R & 2 ROSSI's, a SxS Hammered 12 GA COUCH Gun & a 20Ga SxS Quail Gun. And a couple of SAVAGE Model 24 combo guns and a .410 bore single shot. And an H&R 20GA Single Shot.

So I do know my SHOTGUNS.

BUY A REMINGTON.

[megasupermagnum]

870 ALL THE WAY.

I shot TRAP with an 870TB 12 Gauge from 1966 to 1971 almost every weekend. Anywhere from 200 to 500 rounds a weekend. The next year my DAD gave me an 870MAG 12 GAUGE for GOOSE Hunting. I added a 26"SKEET bbl & shot a lot of Skeet with it. Cleaned them after every weekend, and completely stripped them down for a real good cleaning every 3-4 months. I added another 28" MODIFIED bbl for Pheasant Hunting. I never had a problem shooting 2.75" shells in the 3" chamber. Being able to switch bbls is a real asset. I later purchased a 28" REMCHOKE bbl to use in those two GUNS and an 870 12GA Police CHP Surplused 2.75" Gun. At lot more then 100,000 rounds thru those guns with never a BREAKAGE.
Even bought an 870 12 GAUGE EXPRESS COMBO with a 26" REMCHOKE bbl & 20" cylinder bore bbl with Rifled Sights when they came out in 1987.
I also own a 20GA 870 SKEET GUN with an extra 28" MODIFIED bbl and another 870 20 GA EXPRESS with a 26" REMCHOKE BBL.

I owned a Mossberg for about 6 months. Broke twice. Sold it a $10. loss.

I worked at 2 different GUN SHOPS from 1986 - 1998. In the old days in CA, before the shooting in STOCKTON, CA (1989) you could still buy a Long Gun and walk out the door with it immediately.

The week before the DOVE opener, we would sell a dozen Shotguns a day, almost always with a short case of DOVE ammo. The Mossbergs out sold the REMINGTON'S 3 to 1.

The Monday/Tuesday AFTER the DOVE Opener, every 3rd Mossberg came back in for warranty repair. Broken before 250 rds were fired.

In 12 years I never saw a REMINGTON 870 brought in for repair.

I also own WINCHESTER'S; a Model 24 SxS 12GA, 1300 RIOT GUN 12 GA, 3 Model 12's & 3 Model 1897's. One ITHACA 37, a SAVAGE 311R & 2 ROSSI's, a SxS Hammered 12 GA COUCH Gun & a 20Ga SxS Quail Gun. And a couple of SAVAGE Model 24 combo guns and a .410 bore single shot. And an H&R 20GA Single Shot.

So I do know my SHOTGUNS.

BUY A REMINGTON.

So what exactly broke on yours, and all these other Mossbergs?

[bikerbeans]

Have you bought and shot an 870 made in the last 10 to 15 years?

BB

[gpidaho]

Well, I've told the story over and over in several threads so I won't bore you all with another version here, but after the way I've been treated by Remington with the last two products I've bought from them in the last couple of years it will be a cold day below before I buy another. Gp

[toallmy]

I have 3 Mossberg 500s in the shotgun cabinet 12,20,410 and have owned at least one at a time for at least 25 years I beat them like I'm mad at them and have never broken one . I have purchased at least 8 - 10 new not counting used without getting a lemon not one bad one in a lifetime of abuse so besides breaking the stock , bending the barrel or the new safety they are good work guns . I'm not trying to take any thing away from Remington as I have a few of them as well but to say a Mossberg 500 won't hold up to ruff handling I'll call BS on that . I can line up at least 6 men that I have gifted a Mossberg to that will say the same .

[longbow]

Actually I could go either way and be happy I think.

If I can find a good deal on an older used 870 I would buy a slug barrel and be good. However, the Mossberg 3 barrel combo deal new is hard to beat.

A gun I would certainly consider is the Remington Ultra Slug with pinned barrel. I don't much like the stock but th heavy pinned barrel is a nice feature. I doubt I'll find a used one and new they are pretty pricey so that is most likely off the menu.

There is a used 870 Wingmaster with rifled barrel and scope for $525 CDN at a gunshop back East and I've been considering that. I have seen some used Mossberg 3 barrel combos online too but the price is high enough I'd rather go new unless they'll bargain some.

At this point if I go new the Mossberg is the probable choice and if used then whatever the best deal is considering in the end I want a slug gun with rifled barrel.

Now having said all that, work is pretty lean right now so I am not getting many hours so low paycheque = no toy money. While I am off I will start working on my rifled choke tube again and get it installed. A day or so of machining should get it done then rifling which is slow so maybe a couple of days steady working on it. IF it works the way I intend (slow twist + deep grooves) for bore diameter round ball or short fat slug then this decision on a rifled gun may change but I still want that pump gun for bear protection and general blasting so will then be looking at smoothbores to put my custom choke tube on. The two brand choices will likely still be Remington and Mossberg.

Depending on how that all works out I also still want a dedicated accurate slug gun if the bear gun isn't keeping slug groups under 6" at 100 yards and preferable a bit tighter. If so then I am likely good. If not I may look at a Savage bolt gun for that duty. We'll see. One step at a time.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

TC Encore if you want the Single Shot Rifled Slug Gun. It is the only other shotgun platform I am interested in now. If I got to go bear Hunting on Vancouver Island with Jim Shockey I'd want one of those. Since that probably ain't gonna happen I'll just stick with what I've got.

I've been working on Al Nelson to do a Lyman slug mould, and the slug drawing you posted got sent to him to see if it is feasible with his existing Mould Blocks.

We'll see on that one. I've got to look at one of those Savage Bolt Guns and see what they're like.

Randy

[longbow]

Mihec makes Lyman sabot slug clone moulds. Why not just order one of those? He does them in full bore and wad slug. I kinda wish I had gotten in the first group buy. Oh well. I got talked out of it and sort of talked myself out of it too, much as I like Mihec moulds, I didn't figure I needed another slug mould! Now what sort of flawed thinking is that? Again... oh well!

Nothing wrong with NOE and maybe Al will make it a stock item which Mihec tends not to have... just group buy extras. I've checked his site now and again and he does have some stock so not sure if he does small runs of popular moulds or still just all group buys.

Yeah the TC would be nice too but I think they are a bit pricey. I have to think they are well made and likely very accurate though. I'd still like a USH but that isn't likely to happen.

Never seen a TC here and if there are any I bet they are rare. There are very few shotgun only areas in Canada. I am actually surprised to see so many Remington and Mossberg slug guns for sale new here. Not sure why but they do seem pretty popular.

Longbow

[gpidaho]

So far it seems Al (NOE) has stayed away from slug and round ball moulds. I also wish he would consider making them as I'm a big NOE fan and more than twice over $1,000 club member. All this talk about what shotgun to buy must be getting to me (easy to do) I walked in to try out our towns new Buy-Mart All around good old general merchandise store with a $5 life time membership card. In the sporting goods section was a Mossberg 500 two barrel set up. Price seemed reasonable, $329 so I told the young man behind the counter "Let me see that 500" 18+" cylinder bore barrel. 28" vent rid barrel. Was just about to say "I'll take it " when I ask "what chokes does it come with, hoping for a cylinder choke for the 28" barrel when we both realized the longer barrel wasn't threaded and was a fixed modified. Well, I guess I have more shotguns than I need anyway but sort of put me off that they would cheap on chokes to keep the price down. Gp

[megasupermagnum]

That wasn't a new one then, Mossberg went to threaded chokes a long time ago. I actually prefer the old fixed choke barrels though, they swing better for me. They went to threaded chokes because it was cheaper to do, not because it was better. The old swagged chokes were for cost savings, but I don't think Mossberg ever used those, and a good fixed choke costs more to cut now with the equipment used.

[gpidaho]

MSM: Well, It's not like we checked the #s for year of manufacture but the store is new this month and the box the Mossy was shipped in was there and looked brand new so I'm thinking it's a newly shipped gun. Doesn't matter anyway so not worth worrying about. Gp

[longbow]

That is something I checked on the 3 barrel combo deal here and what it includes is a 28" vent rib barrel with screw in choke tube, 22" turkey barrel with adjustable fiber optic sites and extra full screw in choke tube and a 24' fully rifled barrel with cantilever scope mount.

The 24" barrel with cantilever scope mount is actually a negative for me as I prefer open sights for a knock around gun and the 24" barrel is a bit long. I'd prefer 20" to maybe 22" max. Easy to cut the 24" barrel down with no front sight to worry about but then I need a red dot or similar to mount on it.

I'll look for good used first, but like I said pickings are slim here. I hope the 3 barrel combo deal sticks around for a while if I don't find good used. It is a good deal.

Longbow

[faustus]

Longbow ... Tradeex has a 20 inch rifled Hastings barrel in stock for an 870 ... and with rifle sights ...

https://www.tradeexcanada.com/content/verney-carron-hastings-rifled-barrel-rem-870-12ga-x-3-inch-sights

[longbow]

Faustus thanks for the link. For some reason I didn't find Tradeex when I searched for used guns in Canada.

For that price though they can keep it. Seems pricey for just a barrel but maybe I am comparing to US prices in my head. I don't have an 870 to put it on anyway... well, I guess I put it on my son's 870 to try it out but I'd rather buy the Mossberg 3 barrel combo for $575.00. By the time I buy the barrel then find an 870 to put it on it'll likely cost as much or more than the Mossberg combo.

Elwood Epps has a nice looking 870 Wingmaster with fully rifled slug barrel with cantilever scope mount and scope for $525.00 which I have been thinking about. The problem with most used guns for me is that I am so remote from large shopping centers that there is little chance to find or handle a used gun. I'll most likely have to buy based on pics and description. Not so bad for new guns but not so good for used.

There are a couple of local guys that buy, sell and trade guns that I can get hold of to keep an eye out for decent used pump guns if they don't have anything.

What is nice to see on Tradeex is all the side by 12 ga. guns. Lots of selection and what appear to be decent prices. I will be back looking at those.

Thanks,
Longbow

[Blood Trail]

Well, further investigation at Elwood Epps in Ontario is telling me that both Remington and Mossberg 3 1/2" chambered guns use 3" chamber slug barrels so no disadvantage there for slug shooting. At the other extreme I wonder if those longer actions handle 2" hulls... not that I'd likely shoot many but nice to have the ability. I am more likely to shoot short hulls than 3 1/2" hulls.

So, if I can find a good used 3 1/2" gun there is no disadvantage for slug shooting since chambers are 3". Just thinking there may be more chance of finding a used Mossberg 3 barrel combo in 3 1/2" because someone bought it mostly for waterfowl hunting but didn't like the recoil... maybe?

An option anyway unless there are other disadvantages?

If I buy new then likely the Mossberg 500 3 barrel combo. So far cheapest new I have found is $575 CDN which isn't bad.

I am currently out of work for a bit though so no toy money. It'll come though!

Longbow

LB,

My Mossberg 835 shoots 3.5” slugs. I did a video on 3.5” LBC sabots.
I would stay clear of any 870 made within the last 20 years. The quality leaves a lot to be desired.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Blood Trail]

Delete duplicate post.

[Reverend Al]

Just recently bought a used 870 Remington fully rifled factory barrel with the cantelever scope mount on it for next to nothing since the previous owner took a tumble with it and bent the scope mount. I already had an older 870 with 3 barrels so it made perfect sense. With a bit of "tweeking" the scope base is now straight and mounted with a 2.5 power Sightron scope which has been bore sighted. Just haven't had a chance to get out and test fire it yet to see how it will perform. I'll be shooting hand-loaded Lyman sabot slugs in it.

[longbow]

Looking forward to some range reports reverend!

I like the Lyman sabot slug but personally I think it is a bit too wadcutter like. I'd like to see a bit more TC type nose like old Rapine 730550. That is mostly in reference to the fact I am shooting smoothbore.

The Lyman gets good reviews though and I think out of a rifled gun it will do well for you.

Longbow

[longbow]

BT... have you tested Lyman sabot slugs? If so please point me to the video if you would. I trust your reviews and like your videos.

[faustus]

Longbow,

I don't know if you are aware .... there is the CanadianGunNutz forum and which has several equipment exchange sub forum ... also one for shotguns and one for shotgun parts.

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com

In my opinion a pretty good place in Canada for buying used items from individuals.

You would need to create an account on canadiangunnutz.com and ask the administrators for the rights to access the equipment exchange. There are some good deals showing up from time to time ... and that's where I bought some of the parts that I needed for my 870s and my two H&R single shots that are not produced any more.

Exchange of Shotguns
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/145-Exchange-of-Shotguns

Exchange of Shotgun Parts and Accessories
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/264-Exchange-of-Shotgun-Parts-and-Accessories

[Walks]

Extractor's mostly, sometimes the lifter jammed, or even broke off completely. Sometimes the barrel wouldn't reseat after being removed. Had one that the buttstock split 6 inches from the tang. And more broken off safeties then I could count.

[longbow]

Okay, back from the dead... or a long sleep anyway!

So, looking at used guns, Ellwood Epps Sporting Goods has several used guns that could just make for a decent bear defense gun whether I get a rifled barrel as well or just stick with smoothbore for the bear gun and get a rifled gun for the "target" weapon.

So, now modified question:

Who has experience to say which is best, pros/cons or are these more or less comparable for the purpose of dependable/reliable bear defense (rifled barrel not essential):

- Winchester 120 pump & 120 Ranger; 3"; $200.00 to $250.00 (I know nothing about these)
- Winchester 1200 pump; all 2 3/4"; $225.00 to $275.00 (Seen them and may have shot one long ago. My understanding is they were the newer version to replace the model 12 but weren't the quality of the model 12)
- Winchester 1300; 3"; $250.00 (no experience here but my understanding is this replaced the 1200?)
- Winchester 1300 Ranger; 3"; $340.00
- Winchester 2200; 2 3/4"; $199.00 (?)
- Remington 29; 2 3/4"; $175.00 (? Old but in decent shape it seems. Spare parts available?)
- Remington Wingmaster; 3"; $325.00 (I know about these and it is in the running)
- Remington 870 tactical; 3"; $349.00 (functional as is for bear protection and accessories readily available)
- Mossberg 590 tactical speed feed (Mossberg is in the running and this one is $449.00 so affordable)
- Mossberg 500A Slugster; 3"; $299.00 (Smoothbore with rifle sights. This seems like not a bad deal and the gun appears to be in good shape.)

All these are across the country so I can't handle any but the store has a good reputation so I think I'd trust them on their condition rating and prices look good.

So far Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 have been the main topics but for a knock around bear gun I'd consider others especially if they are reliable and inexpensive. The only gun in this list with rifle sights is the Mossberg Slugster but all can easily be cut down and either a bead (good enough for bear protection) or rifle sights added.

How do the various Winchester models and Remington 29 compare for dependability and of course spare parts. I don't want something that is obsolete. I'd think the Winchester 1200's and 1300's would be decent guns and parts and some accessories available?

Any and all opinions welcome.

Longbow

[gpidaho]

LB: Of the guns listed, the only one I've owned is the Winchester 1300 3" pump gun. When I upgraded to my Beretta 391 Urika I gave the Winchester to my grandson Dustin. That was 12-14yrs. ago and the shotgun is still going strong. Dustin hunts Doves, Upland game birds, ducks and geese and by the number of my reloads that go his way I know that gun gets used. Dependable, yes for sure. All that said, I don't think it would be my first choice for either of the uses you have in mind. I just spotted what I believe will be my bear gun and my next purchase. Check out the Maveric HS-12 Over-under 12ga. Fixed CylinderXCylinder 18.5 inch. The only drawback I see with it is it's light weight but them that's a plus for packing around all day in the woods. Bud's has them listed at Three and a half. U.S. With fiber-optic sights and picitiny rail over and under. Gp

[bikerbeans]

I bought a new win 1200 in high school and it was a poorly built shotgun compared to the Model 12. This 1200 broke (46 years ago can't remember what broke) the 2nd or 3rd time out. LGS fixed it but i never got to shoot it again. Sold it shortly after joining Uncle Sam's canoe club in 73.

BB

[faustus]

Beautiful Ithaca Deerslayer for sale on CGN ..... seems to be a smoothbore with rifle sights .... CAD $500.- shipped .....

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1788366-Ithaca-M37-Deer-Slayer-Foster-Slug-type-12-gauge-500-shipped

[longbow]

gpidaho:

I have been thinking on the same lines... except I prefer a side by. Does it matter - NO! I think two fast shots in a double barrel of either type is a good choice for bears. If you need more than two you are probably done. I have been looking for a Maverick or Stoeger side by as both are affordable. Little used here, though I may look harder.

My default is back to the pump and most likely Remington or Mossberg.

The Winchester 1300 is in the right price range and I think the only drawback is possible accessories. Not that I would need much and they are probably available ~ possibly a barrel if I wanted a to et a rifled barrel, possibly stock change, possibly rifle sights. As is I can cut it down but I think I'd go the Remington 870 tactical and buy a buttstock for it or get the Mossberg 500 Slugster which really does seem like a decent buy.

I guess the Winchester 1200's are off the table and I have to think the 120's too. If they both followed the model 12 they were probably both made to be cheaper to manufacture and I am pretty sure I have heard stories like BB's re 1200's before, as in nowhere near the quality of a model 12.

I will look a bit more but I think the Remington 870 Wingmaster, Tactical and Mossberg 500 Slugster are all good deals that will get bought shortly if I don't jump on one soon.

Faustus:

Thanks for that. I'll check on shipping from Ontario to B.C. but I can't think it is terribly expensive. That Ithaca may be a nice gun but at $500.00 I think I would buy the Mossberg 3 barrel combo new. I have found it as low as $575.00 and Ellwood Epps has them for $660.00 which is lower than most prices I've seen.

Longbow

[Lonegun1894]

LB,
My experience with the models you mentioned is limited to the 870, the various 500s, and the 590s. I stay away from the 870s because of the controls on the Mossbergs being better placed, and the lifter in the 870 catching your thumb as you load more shells into it, especially when wearing gloves. But mostly nowadays it’s just become muscle memory to use a 500/590. The 870 is a great gun, it’s just not for me.

As to your Slugster you found. I use one, and it’s a nice gun that does 4-6”@100 for me, depending on the day. Mine is the 24” version with a smooth bore. There have been times I wished it had a 18” barrel, but for the most part, no complaints. Now on to the 590. I love these, especially the 590A1s, but the standard 590 is also a great gun. This would be my choice. I wouldn’t put too much thought, good or bad, into the speedfeed stock. I have one of these just because it came on a shotgun I bought recently, but to be honest, I’m going to be switching it out for a overmoulded Hogue the next time I have an extra $60 or so. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not that there’s any problem with it, I just don’t like it for some reason I can’t explain.

[Hogtamer]

The winchesters are aluminum receivers. I shot one practically to dust back in the day at doves. A rifled barrel or parts would be problematic. I am just the opposite from lonegun about the Mossberg. The remingtons are what I grew up with and the mossbergs are all wrong to me! Must be a reliable weapon as there are many happy users out there. The 870 does have the distinction of being the most produced shotgun of all times so parts, barrels etc are common as pig tracks in Ga. Wingmaster or Express, parts are interchangeable.

[longbow]

Well, I just checked a rather large variety of used shotgun listings all across Canada and I have to say that Ellwood Epps seems to have their prices in line! I looked at dealers and private sales and found very little at lower prices than what I see at Ellwood Epps. Some about the same but few lower even in private sales.

Seriously thinking about that 500 Slugster. That seems like a good buy and good gun. I will e-mail Ellwood Epps and ask how much they charge for shipping. Not likely a deal breaker anyway.

Also thinking about the 870 tactical. Also looks like a good deal and newer bun though I am leaning into the Mossberg camp.

I'll check into these further.

Longbow

[jmort]

"The Winchesters ( and Mossbergs) are aluminum receivers."
Not an issue. The receiver does not take the recoil. And Remington is sure proud of this:

"The anodized-aluminum receiver, nickel-plated barrel and internal components offer extreme corrosion resistance keeping the Versa Max functioning flawlessly and looking good through wet, sloppy hunting conditions."

The greatest Remington shotgun ever

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: My shooting partner in my class had an 18" 870 in 20 ga. The lifter screwed him many times and I am pretty sure after my constant nagging over the 2 days he was there, that he will be selling it and getting a M500.

The vast majority of guns in my class of 37 were Mossbergs. Probably 75%. Other guns in the class were Benelli's, a few Rems, and some weird Turkish guns I'd never heard of, but were only $199. The people with those guns had nothing but problems running them.

No Ithaca's this time but I saw a Police Ithaca yesterday at the gun show that was intriguing but he wanted $800 for it.

The Benelli M4's were nice guns, the AK Trooper used one of those, but there is alot of extra manipulation to run those guns and they are not cheap. He had $1800 in his! The Benelli's are definitely guns you have to practice alot with to get good with one.

Of the guns you have listed above the two Mbergs look like the best deals IMHO. I personally would go for the 590 as long as it has rifle sights. They make them with and without sights, and with handguards and not. As far as the Speed Feed stock they are a way to have extra rounds on the gun as long as they don't fall out when firing. A $15 Velcro Side saddle is a better option. You could probably sell that stock and finance your Magpul furniture. Virtually every Mberg in the class had Magpul furniture.

I just knew you could find something up there. Good Luck. I'll let you know about the other thing we talked about latter this week.

Randy

[jmort]

^^^ Yes and yes and yes

[Hogtamer]

the versa max is a relatively new autoloader, not an 870.

[longbow]

I've just e-mailed the store for more info on the 870's and Mossbergs and to get shipping cost. Leaning towards the Mossbergs.

That 590 has a bead front sight only.

There are a couple more local guys that buy and sell guns I'll check with too. I talked to one already but he has nothing I want.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

I've got the smooth bore slugster. The sights are not that good. The newer ones have a ramp style that are much better, but the older dovetail ones were hard to see, and mine shoots high. I'm not sure if the front sight is replaceable or not. Something to keep in mind.

[longbow]

msm... I'm not too worried about the sights for the bear gun and if they are way off I can install something better. the sights may be silver soldered or brazed on but still replaceable. This appears to be an older version of the 500 but should still be compatible with new barrel or accessories? I am asking if yours is? I am guessing yes.

This is the gun I am leaning towards. The 590 isn't a bad deal either but just bead sight so again for bear protection use okay and I think 500 barrels fit 590's right? So a rifled barrel could be added later if I feel like it?

Being cheap and not having worked much for the last 3 weeks I really shouldn't be buying anything but I think i will anyway and the 500 Slugster is probably it. It is a good price for Canada, no scope/red dot required, should be upgradeable if I want later, should be a decent gun and reliable bear buster and the store is likely trustworthy to do business with and provide reasonable info on the gun and condition.

Do the older 500's have the plastic trigger group and safety? Not a big deal either way and replaceable should I want.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB; all the M500 have the plastic trigger group. No big deal, and there is no advantage to the steel trigger group unless you are bashing in doors and rough handling the gun regularly. It is made specifically for field combat rough usage.

I just had mine apart today cleaning it after the 700 shots since the last deep clean and I used Aerosol Brake Cleaner to clean it out and then air to blow everything clear. I used Ballistol and Vaseline for lubricants. There was no observable wear anywhere in that unit.

It did take me the better part of an hour to get all the plastic out of the barrel from the wads rubbing and transferring plastic to the barrel. I used a 12 ga brush on a cleaning rod in my Cordless drill to literally scrape the majority out. Nothing seems to dissolve the plastic so you have to get pretty serious with it. Finally got clean patches thru it. I had to run the brush thru it many times in both directions.

I completely disassembled the gun and cleaned every part separately, and the receiver had no more wear to the inside than it had last time. This gun has a little over 1000 rounds thru it now, and is running strong and smooth.

One of the things that occurred during the test was getting the gun to do 2, 3, and 4 repeat shots on multiple targets under the time limits. 1.6 seconds for 2 targets,,, 2.1 sec. for 3 targets and 2.6 sec. for 4 targets at 15 yards. I was late on the 4 targets most of the time. If the gun had been stiff I would have been late on every one. These guns respond well to being shot and a well broken in M500 is as smooth as it gets.

In Order to take the gun apart you unscrew the barrel nut and remove the barrel. Then you push out the pin that holds the Fire Control group in place. Then the Shellstops come out/fall out , the the bolt latch and then the bolt. You can then squeeze the lifter legs together and remove it. Done,,, Reassemble in reverse order. It is pretty simple.

I would recommend a metal Safety button as soon as you have an extra $15US from Brownell's as it is alot easier to disengage with one. Something that would come in handy for a Bear encounter. See Pic. You have to have the trigger group out to install that part.

My HD gun has a XS Big Dot Tritium Front Sight which glues on over the Front Bead it is one of those things you need to be sure of because once it's on ,,, it's on for good. You use JB Weld to glue it on and since the bead in the barrel is undercut you get a mechanical bond which ain't giving up any time soon. It is real easy to see in the daylight and is a big green light bulb in the dark or failing light. Pretty hard to miss either way.

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

Yes, mossberg 500 barrels of any year will fit any 500 receiver, of the same gauge of course. I just wanted you to be aware of the sights, for all I know, the old slug barrels came with any number of sights, and I just got a rare one.

[longbow]

msm I'm betting from your description these are the same sights. Looks like a folding rear leaf and blade or bead front sight. Could be these shotguns were assembled one after the other!

All I have on my single shot slug gun is a folding leaf rear sight. It is for dovetail mount but I filled a barrel matching radius in it then soldered to the barrel. The front sight came off an old Mossberg .22. It is stamped steel and has a bit of a military look to it with ears and a blade. Also soldered onto the barrel. Rude and crude but very effective and strangely after I soldered the sights on and shot, the slugs went to point of aim at 50 yards... well, into a decent group anyway. I have never adjusted the sights.

I kinda figured a 500 is a 500 but wanted to be sure. I don't like unpleasant surprises!

I'm telling you Randy, you should be getting a commission from Mossberg! You have to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest, Mossberg shotgun promoter around! Not a criticism, you convinced me... though I will take what I can get on this purchase so it could still be an 870 but if there is a comparable Mossberg I'll buy it. This Slugster is at the top of my list right now and I am hoping Ellwood Epps has good news for me tomorrow. Darned inconvenient that they don't have someone in the store to answer my questions on a Sunday evening! If shipping isn't a killer though I think this is a done deal.

Mind you, I have to call the local guys tomorrow too. There could well be an old Mossberg 500 around that got picked up. Many people dumped their guns (as in sold them cheap) when the long gun registration was implemented in Canada because they simply didn't want the paperwork or government intervention and poking into their lives. Now of course after spending 2 billion dollars on that stupid long gun registry (yes, 2 billion!) the government canceled it! Terrific value for the taxpayers!

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

Yep, mines the flip rear sight. I haven't used it in a while, but I found two solutions. One was to load light loads. The other was to leave the sight flipped down, and I used the groove in the flat blade screw for the elevation adjustment as the rear sight. That put it about right on with full power factory slugs.

[Lonegun1894]

I have the same version of the Slugster, and I had to drop the blade as low as it would go (with the two s reed holding it in place), and it shoots 1” high at 50yds, and 2” low at 100 with the sights set this way and shooting Winchester full power slugs. My handloads shoot almost identically except 1/2” to 1” bigger groups at 100yds.

[longbow]

Lonegun1894:

Do you mind sharing what handload you are using that is giving 4" to 6" groups at 100 yards from smoothbore? If you don't want to list the powder charge that's fine, I am more curious about slug and wad column. If I could get my handloads to stay 6" or less at 100 yards I'd be pretty happy! In fact if I could count on 8" or less i'd still be happy. I'm pretty easy to please.

What got me going on slugs many years ago was eithe ran article I read or I think a comment in a Lyman manual that stated that with some work the Lyman Foster slug could be counted on to produce 4" groups at 100 yards from smoothbore. I figured that was pretty acceptable so bought a Lyman Foster mould. I used load data right from the Lyman manual but never got 4" at 50 yards much less 100 yards using more than one gun and trying many of Lyman's recipes. In fact the only way I managed to get groups under 8" at 50 yards was to paper patch that grossly undersize slug up to bore diameter which helped tremendously but I still got fliers and eventually gave up completely on the Lyman Foster slug. Slugs from my home made moulds have done far better and they have also done better than I have with Lee Drive Key slugs both 1 oz. and 7/8 oz. Having said that the Lee slugs are so much better than the Lyman it is night and day difference!

I've done pretty well out to 50 yards but it is that 100 yard accuracy I have been looking for and you appear to have found it!

I would actually prefer to stick with smoothbore but I also want to be able to shoot reasonably accurately for as far as the slug is effective and for bore size slugs at normal loading that would be 125 to maybe 150 yards but I'll take 4" to 6" at 100 yards as good enough.

Lately I have started thinking I should just break down and buy a rifled gun.

Please share your load for smoothbore success!

Longbow

[RMc]

"I think 500 barrels fit 590's right? So a rifled barrel could be added later if I feel like it?"

No. The 500/88 and 590 series barrels use a totally different magazine tube attachment.
The 590 uses a conventional magazine cap/barrel ring system for quick magazine tube clean out.

Also the Model 88 "Maverick" uses dual action bars as all Mossberg pump guns have since the Remington patent on "dual action bars" expired.

[longbow]

RMc:

I read something about being able to change the mag tube so that barrels are interchangeable between 500's and 590's. Not sure if that is correct.

I didn't know the Mavericks were dual action bar. I have only handled one Maverick briefly many years ago. They are considerably cheaper than the 500's so Mossberg is keeping costs down somehow. I have thought about Maverick but since they run about the same price as cheap Turkish and Chinese guns I haven't really given them serious thought. I really haven't read anything about them re reliability. Maybe I should.

Not sure if these are available in the US but in Canada we have several Turkish and Chinese guns that are very inexpensive:

- Canuck: https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/canuck-regulator-defender-pump-shotgun-combo-synthetic-12ga-2-3-4-or-3-14-barrel-5-shot.html#.W9cM1bWZ2Uk
- ATA: https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/ata-etro-9-12ga-2-3-4-or-3-14-barrel.html#.W9cNLbWZ2Uk
- Akkar Churchill: https://www.reliablegun.com/en/akkar-churchill-pump-wood-pump-action-shotgun-12ga-3-12-matte-black-wood-stock-4rds-rifle-front-sight-fixed-cylinder
- Dominion Arms: https://www.canadaammo.com/product/detail/kodiak-13-12g-pump-action-shotgun/
- Norinco: https://www.marstar.ca/dynamic/category.jsp?catid=75642

And others. Of these, from what I know which is not a lot, the only one I'd consider is Norinco. They tend to be fairly low price but supposedly decent quality and their clones like the 870 will accept Remington or aftermarket 870 parts.

I suspect several of these are made in the same factory in Turkey and just branded differently.

I should look into the Canuck brand as they are quite common now and lots of models.

While the above are all quite inexpensive I'd rather go with a well known brand name used.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

The maverick 88 is nearly identical to the mossberg 500, the two biggest difference I know of is one the safety is behind the trigger guard, and two, they are made in Mexico. I believe 500 barrels will fit on an 88. The slight price difference was never enough for me to even consider an 88.

[RMc]

The long answer:

In my experience, it appears the primary cost cutting area for the Maverick 88 is the barrel quality and finish. The observed exterior polish was minimal and often uneven. The barrel interiors exhibited visual signs of bore roughness, although the chambers seem quite smooth. I was able to polish the bores to an acceptable level.

I set up the two model 88 shotguns a few years back to use with 18.5" security contract overrun model 500 heavy contour barrels with accu-choke, (then available from Havlin Sales). The difference in barrel quality between the 88 barrels and the better finished 500 barrels was immediately evident. I have not examined any 88 barrels of recent manufacture.

Yes, any 500/88 shotgun can be set up to use 590 or or 835 barrels with the installation of a 590 or 835 magazine tube and barrel nut - provided the mag tube matches the barrel ring length. However to again use the original 500/88 barrel the original magazine tube assembly would have to be reinstalled.

Obviously, if an 835 barrel were used the 500/88 would not be suitable for use with 3.5" ammo.

Here is a video of J. Miculek using a 500/835 conversion with a 590 9 shot tube and a mag ring refitted to the proper length. (I don't think such a resoldered barrel ring would be needed with a regular length 590/835 magazine tube)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3m-WNk44hI


This opens up the possibility of fitting an 835 fully rifled barrel to a standard mag length 590. The rifled and smoothbore 835 slug barrels are not overbored. A close check of standard magazine tube length would be needed.


I believe Mossberg is marketing should consider making slug and vr field barrels available for the standard 590. I believe these would be welcomed by Mossberg fans that like the easily cleaned 590 mag tube.

Finally,

I see the biggest advantages for Mossberg pump shotguns over the Turkish and Chinese guns are market longevity and ready parts availability.

[jmort]

^^^▪ this is exactly right

[W.R.Buchanan]

My main interest in the M500/590 series guns over the Rems comes from my experience in my Shotgun Classes and seeing how both platforms compare when running and manipulating them.

The Mbergs have Dual Extractors which handle over expanded hull bases that get stuck in the chamber better than the single extractor. The technique is called "Butt Stroking." I have had to do it at least once in every class. What happens is the gun essentially locks up after firing and you can't move the forearm . To fix it,,, You hold the gun vertically with downward pressure on the forearm and bring the butt down onto your knee as it is coming up. Similar to kneeing someone in the groin! This usually breaks the stuck hull loose. The Rems typically will work this way as well however I saw many times the single extractor slipped of the rim and the rod had to be shoved down the barrel to break the offending hull loose.

The other significantly negative thing about the Rems is the lifter. It has a big bump on the ejection Port Side which blocks the Ejection Port. The way the lifter is timed as soon as the forearm is moved forward even slightly the lifter raises all the way up and blocks the Ejection Port, preventing loading of a fresh cartridge. This is a big problem on the range and an even bigger problem if you have ran the gun dry in an Emergency situation, and need to do an Emergency Reload when it counts.

When "Riding the Recoil" IE; Running the slide during Recoil it is very easy to bounce the slide off the rear and move it forward slightly when you meant to only Half Rack the gun. This is no big deal with the Mbergs as the lifter stays down until the slide is about 1/4 the way closed. With the Rems it comes all the way up immediately. If you move the slide back the lifter doesn't go back down you have to push it down manually.

The Mossberg Ejection Port is also larger and easier to find when port loading.

People might ask why I put so much attention on Port Loading. Well,,, "Every Time" you load the gun the action is typically open, and the first round goes into the Ejection Port and you close the action. This raises the lifter up under the bolt and clears the loading port so you can shove rounds into the magazine. With the action open the loading port is blocked by the lifter. Also it is MUCH FASTER to Port Load an empty gun than shoving a round into the magazine and racking the slide.

Some may ask how does this affect me hunting ducks? Well you can only have 3 shells in the gun,,, right? You miss your 3 shots and run the gun dry and more ducks are flying by.... It is much faster to Port Load single rounds than spend the time reloading the magazine and watching the ducks fly out of range.

Port Loading a Pump Action Shotgun is 50% of its operation. And learning how to index the shells in your hand is 90% of that. See Pic.

The reason why I advocate Mossberg is that they are simply easier guns to run. Once the gun is loaded, just about any gun will come to your shoulder and find a target, and shoot. However the pulling the trigger part, is only about 15-20% of your time with the gun. The rest of that time is manipulating the gun to get it ready to fire and keeping it loaded.

Shotguns are very formidable weapons. However, they have one distinct disadvantage. They are "Ammo Hungry!" Most guns have magazines that hold 5 rounds or less and about the most you'll see is 9 onboard. I can go thru 9 rounds in about 6 -8 seconds. Then what?

Well if you are being shot at,,, the prudent thing to do is Port Load a shell and fire back as you are moving to cover. You can only reload the magazine when "time and cover" permit, otherwise you are a sitting Duck. But in the meantime you must keep the gun running and returning fire,,, so you are a sitting duck that is shooting back!.

That is what Port Loading is all about.

I ran into this same quandary when I started shooting Pistols. I had a CZ40P which was a Decocker. it had many things you needed to do to run it. I failed miserably !!!! And then I got a Glock which only had 3 things you could do to it. I learned how to run that gun which allowed me to be able to run other guns,,, because I had the fundamentals well in hand by learning on a Glock.

My whole point here is that the Mossbergs are simply easier guns to learn to shoot. The quality of them is on par with any other Pump Action Shotgun out there. so the Nod would logically go to the one that is easier to master. Right?.

And Yes,,, Mossberg should be paying me! I will make that point abundantly clear to them at SHOT soon.

Randy

[Lonegun1894]

LB,
You’re going to want to choke me after this, but here goes. Just fair warning, this load only seems to shoot this well out of two shotguns I have. One is the Mossberg 835 with rifled barrel and scope, the other is a Mossberg 500 with 18.25” barrel (cut off c-lect choke barrel), and Mossbergs front post and rear ghost ring sights. My other shotguns do not do anywhere near the 4-6”@100yds with this load, with normal groups being 8-10, with the occasional 6”, but that’s a fluke.

Now I used some of whatbi do with my muzzle loading shotgun, so bear with me.

The load is Federal hull that Walmart sells in the 100 shell pack of birdshot. So the shells are once fired at this point. Give it a new primer, 25.0 grs Unique, 2 wads punched out of cereal box, 3 wads punche our of normal cardboard, then a Winchester gray plastic wad. I fill the bottom of the Lyman 525 with hot glue til it’s flat with the base, wrap it once with pillow ticking to increase the size just a bit, and then fold crimp the whole thing. The accuracy goes out the window if I try to reload this same shell again tho, so I might be punching the pressure a bit.

My most used load tho is a Winchester birdshot shell (mostly just to have a different color and ID loads easy. It gets the same 25.0grs Unique, then just 3 cereal box cards, a gray wad, and a .678” RB, with fold crimp. This load is ok out to about 50yds, giving me 2-5” groups at 50yds out of any of my shotguns.

[longbow]

Okay then I'll have to try that load and see what happens. I also have to "recalibrate" my loading. The wads I was using are gone now (old Pacific Verelite) and they were thicker than the Winchester and Claybuster wads I have now so my slugs and round balls don't fit as snuggley. This came up last spring when I went out to the range having used same reloading data and slugs/balls but in the Winchester and Claybuster wads. Well, accuracy wasn't what it had been. There were a few other issues too plus relearning a thing or two (got sloppy with roll crimps) to get accuracy back.

I read with interest your comment on patching with pillow ticking. I have cloth patches 0.662" RB's into shotcups already in hulls and paper patched both near bore size slugs and wad slugs to get proper fit. In fact it takes one wrap (tube) of printer paper to make my 0.678" RB's a snug fit in the Winchester wads I have now. They were a perfect fit in the Pacific Verelite wads.

Your RB accuracy at 50 yards mirrors mine. I can generally keep good loads under 4" at 50 yards. In fact my choice for "slug" is generally round ball for moderate ranges from smoothbore. It is that elusive 100 yard accuracy I struggle to get.

Thanks for sharing.

On the gun front I believe I will be ordering the Mossberg 500 Slugster. It seems like a decent deal and the shop has been very responsive to my questions. Shipping is about $40 so not bad. I just hope it isn't sold by the time I order.

Longbow

[RMc]

The extraction problems some 870 Express shotguns exhibit can be virtually eliminated by polishing out any tool marks found on the barrel extension.

If it is a new gun send it back to Remington under warranty.

[Lonegun1894]

I hope those loads help you. I mostly load RBs cause while longer range accuracy is a lot of fun, there is a part of me that just feels stupid chasing tiny groups at 100+ when most of my hunting is usually inside of 25yds, and sometimes stretches out to 50. I mean, my last hog was shot at 15 yards, and I probably could have taken it just fine with buckshot instead of the RB. I still chase the small groups, but I don't beat myself up when I don't achieve them. I have several rifles that shoot sub-MOA groups, and I'd be lying if I said those don't get more of my attention than the shotguns do.

[longbow]

Well, I just tried to order the Slugster and something failed! Typical! First the site registration wouldn't work so I tried resetting the password which did work so let me get to the cart and checkout but then it all failed again! Bah!

I'll call them tomorrow.

[Lonegun1894]

I bet you'll like the Slugster. It's simple, but light, handy, and very effective. More accurate than I expected when I bought mine too.

And if you hear of anyone telling you about me being in the nail polish section of the grocery store trying to figure out what color to buy, and one of the ladies that works there giving me a funny look and laughing when I told her its to paint gun sights with, well, there may be a bit of truth to it.

[bikerbeans]

I use nail polish too, but I do find it hard to apply. The deer doesn't want to stand still while i paint an orange dot on his rib cage.

BB

[Treeman]

Longbow, I don't think you will regret choosing the m500 Slugster. FWIW though the Winchester 1200/1300 are eeny and meeny....I don't know what was changed at the new 1300 designation but it doesn't seem that it was much. Yes they were designed to replace the Model 12 with something cheaper to manufacture but I like the design. I have a 1200 Riot that belonged to my brother-in law's father. It was the shotgun that rode in his cruiser during his career as a city cop. It is the tightest/least rattle prone pump I own.It also has the best wood ironically. Like the Model 1400/1500 semiautos and the SuperX1 these feature a rotary bolt lockup into the barrel extension and at least appears to be the strongest pump action in existence......but nobody questions the adequacy of the Mossberg system. The only thing I dislike on the 1200 is the action release button....it is small and round and requires precise pressure to release. Pluses and minuses-you don't open the action accidentally but you can't always speedily rack the slide at will.
Back to the slugster. I have a slugster barrel that I stuck on my "Revelation" M500 to replace the full choke barrel that was on it when I rescued it from a used gun rack for $100.
My most recent test rounds show great promise-3 shots touching at 35 yards, 3 in 3" at 70 yards. Rio hull and primer 19.3 grains Red Dot, BPI PT1205 Wad 20 ga Nitro card 7/8 lee Slug, fold crimp.

[Lonegun1894]

Thank you, Treeman, I’ll have to try that load in mine too.

[Treeman]

You are welcome. Part of the fun I have had with slugs is first trying to find a slug load that will work in the Slugster for deer hunting in a "shotgun only" area and secondly searching for a plinking/practice load that will shoot decently in multiple shotguns. The load that I hunted with last (no shot taken) was also Rio hull and primer 25 grains of 800X Pt1205 a thinner .10" 20 gauge nitro card ( I don't know who made them and I'm running out) and the Lee 1oz slug fold crimped. That one gives about 6-8" groups at 85 yards.....so it was usable but not all I wanted. Another that has given similar performance and seems to shoot groups rather than patterns in every gun tried was a AA hull win 209, 23 gr.Unique PC Red wad with petals trimmed(removed about 5/16") same .10 NC and the Lee 1 oz fold crimped. The petals are trimmed so that they don't reach to the widest portion of the lee slug the trimmed petals still fill the gap between slug and bore and seem to keep things centered but don't bulge the case and make an overly tight fit. I have done the same with Claybuster wads with decent results but no load has grouped as well as the 19.3 gr Red Dot and 7/8 slug and that pt1205 wad which requires no modification just a 1/8 NC. Obviously none of these loads are high velocity ( they all fall in the 1250-1350 fps range) but I am seeking accuracy first and want my general practice round to be far less brutal to the shoulder than Max power slug loads. BTW, I have also stopped benchresting slug loads and am shooting standing with a tripod shooting stick-not as precise but with open sights I'm not noticing much difference except at my shoulder.

[Apocalypse]

Winchester 1300 "Defender" was my first pump shotgun, purchased maybe 30 years ago and still have it. It has extended 8 shell mag tube and 18.5" IC barrel. Shoots factory Foster slugs accurately out to 30 yards at least. I've not shot reloads in it as yet, as my personal quest is the elusive short shell. Its a very value-conscious option for the tightwads in the crowd (myself included!). I've since put a side saddle, vertical foregrip and side folding stock on it so take that as you will.

[centershot]

I use nail polish too, but I do find it hard to apply. The deer doesn't want to stand still while i paint an orange dot on his rib cage.

BB:groner:

Oh dear...................

[longbow]

As usual, a bump in what should have been a smooth road! I tried to checkout too many times by resetting things and trying again. That triggered a hold with my credit card company and now I can't use the card for two days!

Mot only that, I can't even log into my account at the store now! I reset the password and still no go. It recognizes my e-mail address as having an account but I can't get into it. I thought that maybe there was an option to use my debit card.

I couldn't call today because for the first time in 3 weeks I have work so was on a client's site all day. I'll call the store tomorrow.

Frustrating! Now that I find the gun I want and a good deal to boot I may not get it before it sells!

Bah!

Longbow

[longbow]

Is that UV cure nail polish you buy or the old style solvent stuff?

I'd figure UV cure would be better.

Fluorescent pink should be good on sights but as you note might raise some eyebrows in the make up section when a grizzled old man is buying flashy nail polish! We do live in a liberated society now though don't we!?!

[Lonegun1894]

Don't get me lying to you because I can't remember what I did with the bottle right now. But its this obnoxious weird shade of what looks like a combination of hot pink and neon orange. At least that's what it looks like on the front sight, and it stands out great against the greens and browns I have in the woods here. I can't believe a sober person would choose to put this junk on their nails, but I like it on the front sight of my Slugster.

[longbow]

Well some good news! Despite the confusion regarding ordering the Mossberg Slugster on-line with the account failing and credit card locked and all, l I got hold of the store and they are holding the gun for me! Yay!

So in a couple of weeks I will be the proud owner of a Mossberg 500 Slugster! Yay again!

Randy did a good sales job for Mossberg!

I think this gun will be perfect for the application... except if I really like it I won't want to use it for a knock around gun so will have to get another! What a dilemma.

I better buy some obnoxious colour nail polish so I am ready for customizing sights!

Waiting in anticipation. I got some loading to do! Good thing I just cast up a bunch of RB's. Got lots of slugs cast too.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

Do a layer of white first. It makes orange, or other bright color really pop.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well,,, I guess I can phone in for my commission now. Well done sir. You won't be disappointed.

Randy

[longbow]

Look at that after only 237 posts we got 'er done!

Good stuff and thanks to all! Interesting thread it was! We can keep going too. I'll be reporting on the gun and how it does in the not too distant future.

Longbow

[toallmy]

Just be ready someone will come along right after you complete the purchase offering to sell you a slightly used Mossberg for a 100 - 150 bucks .

[Lonegun1894]

Congratulations, LB!

[popper]

I have the 88 in 20 & 12, never a problem. SIL has 870 in 12 & 20 (plus the youth models for kids). Bent rims lock them up constantly. And they all were 100$ more than mine. Mine shoot shot exceptionally well. Poly stock is fine.

[longbow]

Yay! it arrived! I am the proud new owner of a gently used Mossberg 500 Slugster! It is in pretty much near new shape except for a scratch on one side of the receiver.230080

Not the best pic but the gun does look great!

A shot of internals:

230081

Don't know if it shows up well but there is virtually no wear inside! I am a happy camper!

I know guns sell for less in the States but I have to think I got a pretty good deal in Canada. Also, the service at Ellwood Epps store was great! They did a terrific job of packing, it was bomb proof! I will be watching for more good deals on the internet at Ellwood Epps. I wouldn't hesitate to give them more business.

Now to slug the bore which is obviously tighter than my single shot. My 0.729" as cast slugs don't quite start in the muzzle where they fall through my single shot bore. This is supposed to be cylinder bore but I'll double check that too.

Looking forward to shooting this gun! It is exactly what I was looking for... well after receiving so much advice anyway.

Longbow

[longbow]

Okay so I cleaned then slugged the bore with a 0.735" RB. Bore appears to be right on 0.730" and is cylinder bore. So it is 0.003" tighter bore than my other slug gun. I haven't slugged my BPS which I should do but it has an I/C choke which is seemingly tighter than I/C should be but slugs I have loaded for it take that choke into account so I haven't worried much about the bore diameter.

So, my TC thick skirt slugs that cast at 0.729"/0.730" should be perfect for this gun. I found I had to knurl them up then size back to suit my other gun. this is why I like ribbed slugs that are over bore diameter so swage to fit regardless of bore diameter... within reason.

Anyway, there are a few blemishes but nothing serious and internals are excellent with a mirror like bore so all good. There's a couple small spots of rust near the muzzle around the site base but again nothing serious and no rust in the bore.

It is cleaned, slugged and oiled. Now waiting for me to load up and shoot!

Also, the barrel seems very tight. No slop in the receiver. Maybe I should look at getting a rifled barrel for this gun.

longbow

[megasupermagnum]

Very nice! I didn't realize they made a shorter one, that must be a 20" barrel. I've only ever seen 24" from Mossberg. 20" should be absolutely perfect. The slugsters shoot the .735" round ball exceptionally well.

[W.R.Buchanan]

See,,, now I told you. That is a cool gun! Wood furniture and 18" barrel with rifle sights! You scored!!!

Please put up a close up pic of the Front and Rear Sights. I have never seen one in that configuration.

That gun is exactly what you were looking for as a bear gun. All you need is the bigger safety button and a sling mounted on the side.

You done good and glad to see it. You'll beaming ear to ear at the Range!

Randy

[gpidaho]

Yay! it arrived! I am the proud new owner of a gently used Mossberg 500 Slugster! It is in pretty much near new shape except for a scratch on one side of the receiver.230080

Not the best pic but the gun does look great!

A shot of internals:

230081

Don't know if it shows up well but there is virtually no wear inside! I am a happy camper!

I know guns sell for less in the States but I have to think I got a pretty good deal in Canada. Also, the service at Ellwood Epps store was great! They did a terrific job of packing, it was bomb proof! I will be watching for more good deals on the internet at Ellwood Epps. I wouldn't hesitate to give them more business.

Now to slug the bore which is obviously tighter than my single shot. My 0.729" as cast slugs don't quite start in the muzzle where they fall through my single shot bore. This is supposed to be cylinder bore but I'll double check that too.

Looking forward to shooting this gun! It is exactly what I was looking for... well after receiving so much advice anyway.

Longbow Happy for you L.B. , Great to have a new shotgun to sort out. That looks to be a very nice one. Gp

[longbow]

Its actually 18 1/2" barrel and cylinder bore all the way. Rear sight is a flip up simple rifle sight with a vertically adjustable leaf with notch in it. Front sight is a typical bead type rifle sight. I'll try to take a couple of close up pics of the sights later.

It really seems to have been shot little and from the marks on it I wonder if someone bought it, pulled the trigger once, dropped it or let it fly and decided it wasn't gun for them! There is literally no visible wear on anything... I mean the bluing isn't even scratched on the mag tube or action bars, like it hasn't been used. Unfortunately there are a couple of small rust spots but really not serious and purely cosmetic anyway.

Yes, Randy it is exactly what I was looking for except it is so tight I am thinking maybe rifled barrel down the road? For now though it is perfect and I look forward to trying it out soon. Not only do I have lots of slugs cast I still have some of the Russian paradox slugs KrakenFan69 sent me. They are slightly small for my other gun so i knurled them up and they are waiting to be loaded. They are still a bit undersize for this Mossberg barrel but not by much and being soft lead I can likely use the knurled slugs anyway so I may shoot them out of the new gun after I establish accuracy with it.

And thanks for the hard sell on Mossberg! You and a few others convinced me to try it and I am liking what I am seeing so far... and feeling when operating the action. It is quite snug and not really rattly like I was expecting. In fact I think it is tighter than my son's 870. I'll get it out and compare.

I am really wanting that NOE Lyman clone mould after seeing yours and Ranch Dog's pics. Those are beautiful! Even though work has been sparse and expenses high I may just order one. Like I need another slug mould! But sometimes a guy just hasta! My home made TC mould slugs shoot quite well and are likely a match for the Lyman but I won't know unless I try and if I get a rifled gun, or rifled barrel for this gun, it is one more design to try in the search for best accuracy. A new gun should get a new mould... yes?

Sight pics to follow.

Longbow

[Lonegun1894]

Congratulations, LB! That is beautiful, and MUCH better looking than mine. Actually, I wish mine was 18.5” like yours, but it’s the common 24”.

[longbow]

Thank you Lonegun1894!

I was thinking that 20" is the ideal barrel length but I am not going to complain or worry about 1 1/2". This gun is nice enough I am already thinking I need something else for my knock around gun! however, now that I have one Mossberg 500 maybe I can find a more beat up one cheaper and maybe pick up a rifled barrel and other interchangeable accessories! There is no end to this... except lack of money!

Seriously, I think this is a nice gun and good deal. I won't be intentionally beating the gun up though it will be joining me in the bush as well as at the range. I do think I will keep my eyes open for another one and if I can find one a little more abused that may become my bear gun.

Is yours smoothbore or rifled? I see the rifled barrels tend to be 24" for Mossberg and I am guessing that is because they are used for hunting more than defense. However, with a scope a 20" barrel is likely not giving up anything over a 24" and makes the gun handier.

My thought if I had wound up with a 24" rifled barrel with cantilever scope mount was to cut it down to 20" or 22". With no front site to re-mount that's pretty easy. With rifle sights, not so much but silver soldering a front sight back on isn't that hard if a guy is motivated.

Anyway, I am happy with what I have for sure.

Longbow

[Lonegun1894]

KB,
Mine is smoothbore, and by your description, it has the same sights yours does. My receiver is scratched up, including all the finish being worn off where the slide touches it as you cycle the gun, but it is smooth and accurate. Don’t get me wrong, it isn’t scratched up enough to look like ****, but more looking well used. I’m not complaining.