How about this powder

[vrh]

Hello everyone,
Anyone ever tried Alliant Black MZ Muzzleloader Powder ? They say it is the same size granular as 2f GOEX. If you have shot this....how did it shoot and how was the clean up after?

[shdwlkr]

Yes I have shot this powder seemed just like real black powder and clean up was way easier YMMV

[arcticap]

A lot has been written about it on forums since the Sportsman's Warehouse sells it for $10 per pound.
Photos and feedback about it showed that it's granulation appears to be a little larger than Goex 2F.
Some compared the granulation to kitty litter or cannon grade powder.
But the powder seems to have a mix of different size granules.
It's said that it's rebranded American Pioneer Powder.
A lot of people like using it in revolvers, and it works well in cartridges.
It cleans up pretty easily with soap & water.
There's also some reviews on the store website:

https://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/sportsmans/Alliant-Black-MZ-Muzzleloader-Powder/productDetail/Powder-and-Primers/prod99999030268/cat100011

[dondiego]

Their ad claims that real black powder has ignition problems?????????.........and cleaning hassles????????

[quilbilly]

I have just gotten started playing with this powder myself and so far have been impressed considering my bad experiences with other imitation black powders. My tests have been with 45 cal PRB. The powder seems roughly equivalent to my 3F Goex loads (55 gr) volumetrically although the recoil seems slightly higher and the impact point has been the same at 40 yards. It is slightly more accurate (!) at that range. With 3F Goex I usually clean after every shot at the range or after two in the field but with the Black MZ, the PRB goes down the bore easier after 6 shots than after the first shot (!!!). Given the climate I live in (Pac NW rainforest) the big question is how fast it pulls moisture out of the air to cause a misfire since Pyrodex is absolutely horrible for that.
The only test I did for that was leaving a small pile of the Black MZ out on the porch on top of a paper towel for a few days. There was no moisture on the towel compared too either Pyrodex or Goex but I will repeat that test when our fall rains get going.
My cleanup after shooting in my kitchen (boiling water) seemed the same so far.
I am not sure if I will hunt with it yet since the ML early hunting season is only two weeks away and I have been using 3F Goex for deer in the 45 for decades.

[rfd]

Alliant Black MZ Muzzleloader Powder - is NOT real black powder.

[shdwlkr]

rfd
who said it was real black powder, I don't think any of us who have used it was ever under that impression and at $10.00 a pound it sure doesn't cost anywhere near the cost of real black powder.
I am wondering how it would work in .36 and .32 caliber black powder firearms. If any one has used it in these calibers what are your experiences. thanks

[fgd135]

Anyone tried this stuff with BPCR?

[indian joe]

Their ad claims that real black powder has ignition problems?????????.........and cleaning hassles????????

so people are still allowed to tell lies in adverts !

[indian joe]

rfd
who said it was real black powder, I don't think any of us who have used it was ever under that impression and at $10.00 a pound it sure doesn't cost anywhere near the cost of real black powder.
I am wondering how it would work in .36 and .32 caliber black powder firearms. If any one has used it in these calibers what are your experiences. thanks

theres a writeup on its corrosion capacity in the substitutes thread - I have never used it so dont know - but if they claim corrosion problems and cleanup problems with real blackpowder in their advertising - that would raise a flag agin it for me .

[arcticap]

I will be the 1st to admit that traditional guns that are loaded with black powder will usually outshoot and outperform substitute powders, with better scores and results.
However, real black powder does produce sulfuric acid which is corrosive, and it can also produce creosote fouling which can become hard and crusty, especially when
relative humidity is over 30%.
These are facts that the advertisement may be exploiting.
I have not read the substitute powder thread and don't have a link to it or the advertisement.
But the ad seems to be telling the truth since the ascorbic acid or fructose based powders such as APP and Black MZ don't contain these by-products as far as I know.
It's fouling can still cause rust if it's not cleaned promptly, especially after it absorbs moisture drawn from humid air, but maybe not quite as quickly.

One of the biggest complaints about Black MZ is the large granulation which might interfere with how it flows out of some powder flasks, also may not allow it
to flow into the drum, powder chamber or flash channel of some guns after being loaded.
That can happen with black powder too if the granulation is too coarse or if the nipple or powder chamber gets clogged with fouling and interferes with ignition.
I don't expect anyone to like Black MZ if they prefer to use black powder.
But there's plenty of reasons for people to try different powders.
Sometimes it's just a matter of cost and whether it provides some fun for them to be able to shoot their guns without needing to drive a far distance
to simply get a powder that works.
Or if they have some black powder, they can save it for when they really need it and shoot the cheaper powder in the meantime.

[rfd]

for cap guns, the sub cr@p is fine, but not for flinters.

why in the world anyone would think that real black powder is "inferior", corrosive, and hard to clean is typically due to incorrect information, lack of experience, total ignorance, or all of the aforementioned.

[indian joe]

for cap guns, the sub cr@p is fine, but not for flinters.

why in the world anyone would think that real black powder is "inferior", corrosive, and hard to clean is typically due to incorrect information, lack of experience, total ignorance, or all of the aforementioned.

100% kerect!

[vrh]

Well......I'm going to use it first in my inline rifle. If it does good there, then I will try some in my two percussion sidelock rifles.
Yes I will spend $10 for a pound of powder if it shoots good. Can't understand why BP has gone up to $ 30 a pound.

[rfd]

real bp is considered an explosive and there are a number of fed requirements for storage and such which, along with less demand than subs and smokeless, make it not cost effective for LGS's to carry it. and we mail order it out ... while we still can do that.

[dondiego]

Gunpowder is basically the same price as smokeless.

[Maven]

How about this one: https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/23165

[dondiego]

How about this one: https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/23165

Have you ever tried the reenactor powder in a rifle with ball?

[Maven]

I haven't yet, but Hanshi has with Jack's Battle Powder and is quite pleased with it. Truth be told, I'm giving serious thought to ordering at least #12 of it since it is so much more economical than other brands (and even more tempting now that Graf's Wano/Schuetzen is out of stock).

[taco650]

I have just gotten started playing with this powder myself and so far have been impressed considering my bad experiences with other imitation black powders. My tests have been with 45 cal PRB. The powder seems roughly equivalent to my 3F Goex loads (55 gr) volumetrically although the recoil seems slightly higher and the impact point has been the same at 40 yards. It is slightly more accurate (!) at that range. With 3F Goex I usually clean after every shot at the range or after two in the field but with the Black MZ, the PRB goes down the bore easier after 6 shots than after the first shot (!!!). Given the climate I live in (Pac NW rainforest) the big question is how fast it pulls moisture out of the air to cause a misfire since Pyrodex is absolutely horrible for that.
The only test I did for that was leaving a small pile of the Black MZ out on the porch on top of a paper towel for a few days. There was no moisture on the towel compared too either Pyrodex or Goex but I will repeat that test when our fall rains get going.
My cleanup after shooting in my kitchen (boiling water) seemed the same so far.
I am not sure if I will hunt with it yet since the ML early hunting season is only two weeks away and I have been using 3F Goex for deer in the 45 for decades.

Q,

Would like to hear a followup from you on how Black MZ works out in the long run because it's plenty humid here in GA even when it isn't raining.

I bought some Pyrodex RS a few months back because it was what was available locally and I didn't have the $$$ to order real black online (still don't). I found the Pyrodex did cause me rust issues even after a good cleaning and wasn't any easier to load at the range after the first shot. Accuracy was on-par with my 3f Goex loads but not better. This was in a Traditions .50 cal Kentucky rifle (cap fired). Suffice to say that I'm not impressed with Pyrodex.

Stuart

[quilbilly]

We just got our first serious rain since June 26 yesterday so the monsoons are coming. I will keep you informed.

[charlie b]

I tried it in my Lyman and it did not do well, but, that is probably due to my rifle and load. I shoot 450gn PP conicals that do not have any friction when seated. The mfg of BlackMZ suggests a good compressed charge. I can put a veggie wad down and put pressure on the powder charge, but, there is no compression once the bullet is 'gently' seated. So, I get larger groups, ie, 5-6". OK for short range hunting, not so good for me.

[Flintlock1812]

I've been using it for the last 3 years in my inline. It works fine, I've shot several deer using it. I haven't or would use it in my flintlocks.
It does burn very clean and clean up is a breeze.

[Good Cheer]

FFFg in the pan and under the main charge of substitute?
I've read that people do that to stretch their more expensive black supply.
But, I'm leery of duplex loading... probably pointless caution on my part.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

https://i.postimg.cc/HjGKhH3m/IMG_0069.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/QCKwmVQS/IMG_0071.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/J7yzvqKY/IMG_0065.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I have 6 cans and in the end, all of them I had to dump out and gently crush up these huge chunks. Powder is still accurate out to 100 yards but not the same accuracy as with pyrodex. But for $10, I shall keep on buying and shooting!

[quilbilly]

I still haven't had the chance to do the "pile on the porch" test to see how fast the BlackMZ draws out moisture from the air but I did use it in my 50 Cal. sidelock with PRB for the first time after making sure it was ready to hunt with 3f Goex. After three shots in a row without cleaning it was definitely easier to get the third PRB down the bore with the BlackMZ than the first ball just like in the 45 with PRB. It also was again a bit more accurate than with 3F at 41 yards. This is food for thought out in the field since it would reduce what I need to carry in the possibles bag.

[DCM]

I will have to give it a try, for $10 why not?

[indian joe]

https://i.postimg.cc/HjGKhH3m/IMG_0069.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/QCKwmVQS/IMG_0071.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/J7yzvqKY/IMG_0065.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I have 6 cans and in the end, all of them I had to dump out and gently crush up these huge chunks. Powder is still accurate out to 100 yards but not the same accuracy as with pyrodex. But for $10, I shall keep on buying and shooting!

Have you tried dehydrating that stuff??

[arcticap]

APP can also form clumps inside of a new sealed container.
The clump can often be broken up by simply shaking the container.
APP clumps are usually pretty fragile and can be easily broken apart.
Even black powder has some moisture in it right from the factory which is desirable and can actually make the powder more potent.
Perhaps this powder clumps because it's a fruit sugar based powder.
Since all 6 containers had clumps, it sounds like most all were still new & sealed.
If someone were to leave a container open and it absorbed too much moisture from the air, them maybe dehydrating it would help.
But if it's a newly opened can of powder and it ignites and performs well, then I wouldn't try to alter the factory spec's when there may not be anything wrong with it
and it may not ever clump up again.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

These clumps I had to use a small section of wood and gently crush them apart. It wasn't hard, but it was needed as the shaking method would not work. The powder shoots well, even at 100 yards, but no where as good as Pyrodex P in my rifles. But guess what? At $10 a lb, I will be buying more of it as it fills my needs to just go out and make smoke and enjoy my rifles and save the real black powder for hunting or even rendezvous shoots.

[quilbilly]

I gave the BlackMZ the moisture/humidity test. I set a small pile of it outside on a paper towel on the covered porch for five days of fog and 90+% humidity. The powder was caked and spongy but when I set a match to the paper towel, the powder ignited as it should when the flame got to it. It clearly doesn't draw moisture out of the air like either 3F Goex or Pyrodex P. I am in the middle of muzzleloader deer season now so won't make a switch from 3F but next year I might use BlackMZ for hunting and save my 3F for rendezvous. The local blacktail deer probably won't care.

[Newtire]

I have used it in everything from .32 up to 11 gauge shotgun. It seems to like the heavier projectiles. The heavier they were, the more velocity per grain wt. I didn't get a chance to test out the velocity in .32 and .36 (didn't bring the chrono those times) but accuracy was good. It leaves no residue. I shot it all afternoon out dove hunting and never wiped the bore even once. Come to think of it, never wiped the bore one time while testing it out with rifles. It is slower than 777 but no crud ring to deal with. Try not to play it up too much though or they are going to raise the price!

[Newtire]

Had that clumping thing too but shaking the cans cleared it up. Doesn't seem right but still performed the same velocity wise.