9.3x72R load advice needed

[peter72]

Hi guys.
I recently purchased a Husqvarna Cape gun in 9.3x72R-16 gauge.
All information that I have points it to being a 1912/1913 year of manufacture.
I will do a chamber cast as soon as I get it home.

A few things that will initially dictate some starting points, projectile weight of course, I think its a 1:16 (once again, will check when I've picked it up) and if it is a 1:16 then I will be using 185gn through to approximately 250gn (some knowledgeable people advised me that twist rate should stabilise projectiles in that weight range).
Chamber cast will tell me barrel dimensions but an initial measurement with verniers shows up as a true .366, I am aware that some are a .364.
If the chamber cast does show as .366, I will prefer to use factory projectiles over casting but am not ruling out getting a mould to suit, and paper patching aswell.
So after that long winded rant, my question for the wise, I have real BP (Wano 2p & 3p) and Pyrodex.
Where should I start with powder amounts?
I have smokeless data but cannot find anything for BP.
Thanks in advance
Peterhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180909/cd8ede27c7a93c7a17ec868504b6fa9f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180909/6ee346c899d116c2e40be40c1dbac9eb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180909/669f8f92d4d1cc68aab38d26f6c40dae.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180909/cfa90c6c15b90fe69a50cf56c970c295.jpg

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[sharps4590]

BP is probably the easiest powder there is to determine a charge. I'd suggest soft lead bullets, like 20-1 to 25-1, lead to tin at approx. .002 over groove diameter.

To determine your powder charge calculate how far in the case the bullet will seat. Figure a powder charge that reaches that height in the case. Add a .020 to .060 over powder card, seat the bullet and you should have enough compression for a starting load. From there you can juggle the powder charge and/or compression until you find what it likes. NEVER leave an air space between powder and bullet but, you probably already knew that.

Either Ffg or Fffg should be ok. Can't tell you a thing about Pyrojunk because I hate the stuff. I'd start with Ffg but definitely try Fffg. I've always used Federal 215 Magnum primers with BP cartridges but I can't honestly say a magnum primer is required for satisfactory results. In smaller cases like the 9.3 X 72R standard primers have worked well for me. My larger cases....yes, there seems to be a difference between standard and magnum primers.

I always admired the Husky combination guns except that the metal forearm really puts me off them. Other than that I'd have one or three in the toy box!!!!! Yours looks really good! The right firing pin spring looks a little tired, easy fix. Use a ball point pen spring cut to length. Should work fine and pull the pin right up!

[Tatume]

Looks like a beautiful gun. I wouldn't gunk it up with nasty old Pyrodex if it was mine! Also, try it with and without the over-powder card. I get excellent results without card wads. Here's some information on loading your excellent medium game cartridge.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75108-9-3x72R

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?44035-Opinions-on-Lyman-366408-mold

[peter72]

Thanks for the advice gents.

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[BlackpowderSweden]

Never seen a Husqvarna model 17 in caliber 9.3x72R?, to my knowledge they were only chambered in the 9.3x57R length. 192gn was the factory bullet weight. S&B still makes factory ammo I think?

[sharps4590]

BPS, peter will know as soon as he does the chamber cast.

[Huvius]

Any .358" cast boolit will patch right up to .366"
I'm not thinking that the 9.3X72R was loaded with PP boolits originally but using the .358" boolits is easy as can be and may even smooth out your bore if it is a little frosty.

[peter72]

Any .358" cast boolit will patch right up to .366"
I'm not thinking that the 9.3X72R was loaded with PP boolits originally but using the .358" boolits is easy as can be and may even smooth out your bore if it is a little frosty.Yeah PP is on my list of workable ideas.
I bought some #9 paper in preperation.
I've read some of these older bores are only suitable for lead, if I PP a jacketed for example, would that be detrimental to the bore?
Another thing I have read which I'm interested in is loading smokeless for BP pressures.
3031 starting at around 25gns?
This is more appealing to me due to bore cleanliness but I want to obviously keep pressures very low.
Any thoughts/opinions?


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[smkummer]

I loaded smokeless loads for a friend that had a German drilling in that caliber. Somewhere I read to use 38-55 data of which I did using a Lyman cast bullet made for 9.3 calibers. It was an accurate load but for some reason shot high. I believe the owner bagged a deer with the rifle. I’ll try to contact him and find the data.

[peter72]

I loaded smokeless loads for a friend that had a German drilling in that caliber. Somewhere I read to use 38-55 data of which I did using a Lyman cast bullet made for 9.3 calibers. It was an accurate load but for some reason shot high. I believe the owner bagged a deer with the rifle. I’ll try to contact him and find the data.Thankyou

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[peter72]

Got this off loaddata.com
17gns 3031.
I'm curious if that'll be a starting point or can it safely go lower?.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180911/53a1b1d1288e5669002c318a56051ef4.jpg

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[sharps4590]

The last load in the list, the 42 grs. of IMR-3031, is very, very near to factory ballistics with smokeless loads and Nitro proofed rifles. I don't know I'd go any lower with the upper listed IMR-3031 load of 17 grs.a I don't know anything about loaddata.com but they certainly don't seem to have a problem with a 25 gr. difference in loads with what is essentially the same bullet weight.

You might try here for trustworthy data. Most of those guys have forgotten more about German firearms and cartridges than those who think they know actually know.

http://www.germanguns.com/upload/forum.php

[BlackpowderSweden]

Again, check that is 9.3x72R, I'm pretty sure it is 9.3x57R, as Husqvarna never listed any 9.3x72R for their model 17.

[skeettx]

Watching :)

[sharps4590]

BPS, if it turns out to be a 9.3 X 57R I think Peter came out well!!!! I have a 9.3 X 57 in a Husky bolt rifle, as many do, and the more I shoot it the more I like it. A rimmed version would just be icing on the cake!

As skeetx said, "watching".

[texasnative46]

Peter72,

NICE old hammer drilling.= I love the old hammer cape guns & drillings.

IF it was mine & the chamber cast proves it to be a 9.3x72R, I would load it with an about 220 grain GCCB in front of 34 grains of IMR3031 for hunting any game up to 150KG out past 200M.

just my opinion, tex

[texasnative46]

BlackpowderSweden,

What Husky made isn't as important as a chamber cast to see if it has been modified for another cartridge.

Btw, do you happen to have a case drawing for the 9.3x57R case?? = I didn't know that there WAS such a rimmed case in 9.3x57mm.

yours, tex

[skeettx]

https://www.buffaloarms.com/9-3x57r-360-cases-9357r

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1269-Nansen-amp-Johansen-s-9-3x57R-360-Experience-Repost

[texasnative46]

skeettx,

Did you LOOK at the 1st link?? = The page says, "We missed one."

yours, tex

[peter72]

Still haven't picked this firearm up yet, Australian bureaucracy at work.
The only indications I have that it's a 9.3x72r is that's what the shop told me, and that a 9.3x72r case fitted in the chamber when they showed me.
So I'm not saying it definately is a x72r, but would a x57 case also fit giving a false indication of what it really is?
Like has been mentioned here, all indicators point to the x57 as there are no records of Husqvarna making the x72r.
So let's assume it is a x57r, is it just a case of necking up an 8x57r?
I'm hoping it is a x72r as Ive already bought dies from ch4d.

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[texasnative46]

peter72,

ONCE MORE, you NEED a chamber cast to see what EXACTLY that the caliber actually IS. = MANY older/antique firearms were rebored/rechambered in the pre-WWI & post-WWI era.

Btw, because of Jessie at JES, reboring/rechambering to a different caliber is NOT uncommon NOW. = I have & would NOT part with a Model 760 that was once a .30-06 & is now a 9.3x62mm Mauser for dangerous game.

yours, tex

[BlackpowderSweden]

The 9.3x57R is a shorter version of the 9.3x72R the longer case can be trimmed down to 57mm and be resized an reloaded as 9.3x57R.
If the 9.3x72R fits the chamber it is most likely that the 9.3x57R chamber has been reamed to accept the more common 9.3x72R.

The 9.3x57R for the m/17 Husqvarna has nothing in common with the 9.3x57 Rimless for the Mauser cylinder action wich is based on 8x57 Mauser.

227400

227401

[peter72]

The 9.3x57R is a shorter version of the 9.3x72R the longer case can be trimmed down to 57mm and be resized an reloaded as 9.3x57R.
If the 9.3x72R fits the chamber it is most likely that the 9.3x57R chamber has been reamed to accept the more common 9.3x72R.

The 9.3x57R for the m/17 Husqvarna has nothing in common with the 9.3x57 Rimless for the Mauser cylinder action wich is based on 8x57 Mauser.

227400

227401Thankyou for the excellent explanation.

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[BlackpowderSweden]

http://www.municion.org/9_3/9_3x57R.htm

But since the 9.3x72R fits the chamber, you probably have a rechambered rifle so your CH4D dies will probably work fine.
Reading up little about reloading the cartridges, the x57R variant seems to have been basicly a Blackpowder only round at the time of the model 17, later ofcourse they were smokless rounds for sale.
The 9.3x57R had about 1200Bar the x72R had about 2000Bar
Be careful not to overload your gun, go mild loads.

[peter72]

http://www.municion.org/9_3/9_3x57R.htm

But since the 9.3x72R fits the chamber, you probably have a rechambered rifle so your CH4D dies will probably work fine.
Reading up little about reloading the cartridges, the x57R variant seems to have been basicly a Blackpowder only round at the time of the model 17, later ofcourse they were smokless rounds for sale.
The 9.3x57R had about 1200Bar the x72R had about 2000Bar
Be careful not to overload your gun, go mild loads.Interesting.
Seeing as I don't know if it's smokeless capable, my intention is to load smokeless at bp pressures.
My searching tells me bp pressures are at or around 18000 psi.
I'll be using 3031 equivilant and some data I have from loaddata.com has 17.5gns as a low pressure load.
But there are some suggestions to start higher so I'm a bit confused as to a safe starting load to be honest.

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[BlackpowderSweden]

Peter, sounds like you know what you are talking about! that is great!
I have a friend hunting with a m/17C 9.3x57R loading with Smokless, way over BP performance without problems.
Your gun will probably not blow up, but more likely work loose (play) in the hinge pin if you load hot.

[texasnative46]

peter72,

Inasmuch as Husky never made BP-only firearms after the turn of the 20th Century. I wouldn't worry over much about the safety of the firearm (presuming that it's tight & otherwise in sound condition).

AFTER you have a chamber-cast & KNOW for sure what cartridge is proper for your firearm, you could start at about 60% of the recommended maximum load for the cartridge & work up from there to the old-school "high speed" .38-55 equivalent load.
(The 9.3x72R is NOT a POWERHOUSE but it is perfectly adequate out to 200M+ for RED DEER & wild Boar-size game, using a 200-225 grain GCCB or JHP.)
When I was stationed in BRD, I often hunted with a retired German policeman, who had/hunted with his late father's circa 1910 cape-gun in 9.3x72 with a 16 gauge shot-barrel. = That long/heavy/blunt-profile bullet was a DEEP penetrator on Red Deer & wild boar. It often passed through the chest of his game, leaving a GOOD blood-trail to follow if necessary.

NOTE: WT deer are just NOT at all hard to kill cleanly. Remember that MANY THOUSANDS of WT were successfully taken using the old .32-40WCF, for close to 100 years. = Nobody can kill game "deader than dead".
(The "standard speed" .32-40 factory load was a 180 grain RNLB at 1400FPS.)


yours,tex

[peter72]

Finally got it home.
Did a chamber cast, definately a 9.3x72r.
Bore measures .361/.366 +/- .001 from my lyman digital verniers.

So now to decide what to do about projectiles.
Measured twist rate is approximately 1:16.

Tried the 16g out.
First few shots with 1oz pyrodex/#7 shot.
Won't be using that stuff again, seems dirtier than real bp, probably isn't.
Loaded up some smokeless, 18gns AP70 & 7/8oz shot, book recommends 1oz and 18.5gns AP70.
I'll step it up to 1 oz as 7/8 oz was way under powered even compared to the bp loads.

So good news that it is actually a x72r.
Very minimal freebore, maybe 3mm, is this normal for this cartridge?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180924/edd03f9316ad015ec50026eba511294d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180924/4ded30fe128c1a289b75ced96d17d751.jpg

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[BlackpowderSweden]

Nice to hear from you Peter,
Good to clear all the guessing.
Original bullets both for 9.3x57R and 9.3x72 was 12,5Grams (192gn)
The 1-16" twist will probably handle a 250gn bullet without problems.
Accurate can get you wathever mould you want.

BR/ BP Sweden-

[peter72]

Nice to hear from you Peter,
Good to clear all the guessing.
Original bullets both for 9.3x57R and 9.3x72 was 12,5Grams (192gn)
The 1-16" twist will probably handle a 250gn bullet without problems.
Accurate can get you wathever mould you want.

BR/ BP Sweden-Thankyou for mentioning accurate molds.
I've just ordered the 36-193D.
Will be a few weeks but I'm just pleased he ships to Australia.
Will start out with 1:20 and go from there.
I also have the hitek coating so I'll try that also.
If I can get it to shoot at 3 or so inches at 50 metres I will be very happy.
I'm not concerned about velocity as the target species for the 9.3 barrel will be pigs mainly, they won't care if the bullet is doing 1200fps or 2000fps.

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[sharps4590]

Always good to have all the questions answered!!! Good doin's peter! If the bore is decent I'd expect better than 3inches at 50. Once a good load is found and tweaked half that wouldn't surprise me.

[texasnative46]

peter72,

LOOKS FINE. = CONGRADS.

yours, tex

[Wayne Smith]

skeettx,

Did you LOOK at the 1st link?? = The page says, "We missed one."

yours, tex
Tex, that's just for the picture.

[texasnative46]

WayneSmith,

At the time that I posted the comment, there was a message on the page but NO picture of anything, unless you count: We missed one..

yours, tex

[Wayne Smith]

Yes, it means that they missed taking a picture of that one. Hopefully that will be corrected soon.

[peter72]

Note: AP70 is the same powder as Universal.

For those interested I did some more testing with the 16g today.
As always, Im open to any suggestions
Didnt go aswell as I'd hoped.
The gun shot fine but velocity is atrocious.
Using ADI single action data as a starting point (the manual uses cheddite style cases and plastic wads which I'm waiting on delivery)
Started with 1oz #7 shot, 18gns AP70 in Magtech brass.
Over powder card, cushion wad, shot and over shot card glued in place.
Also had 1oz (volume) pyrodex loads and same setup as with the AP70.
Pyrodex, well I wont be using that stuff again, may aswell use real BP, but I want to keep it smokeless if possible.
Patterned very well at 30 paces (IM or M choke I think) but after I put them over the chrony, I need to re-evaluate the loads.
774, 778 & 804 fps with AP70.
I have read that using card wads the loads need to be upped a bit.
I must be losing a lot of fps due to not having a decent gas seal.
Next step will be to up the loads incrementally to 20.5 as max, and/or maybe using 2 over powder cards.

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[CamoWhamo]

Pete, i've had bad performance from the ADI pistol powders of late. They don't seem to be reaching expected velocities and i get lots of unburnt powder. I'm starting to suspect something is not right. Maybe your's is from the same batch as mine.
See if you can get hold of some Alliant powders up there. They seem to much more stable and reliable

[peter72]

Pete, i've had bad performance from the ADI pistol powders of late. They don't seem to be reaching expected velocities and i get lots of unburnt powder. I'm starting to suspect something is not right. Maybe your's is from the same batch as mine.
See if you can get hold of some Alliant powders up there. They seem to much more stable and reliableHey mate. Interesting what you say about powder reliability.
I also ran some 12g reloads over the chrony today. According to the ADI manual they should've been punching along at 1250ish fps but were only showing at 1050-1100 with unburnt powder.

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[sharps4590]

Given the powder has been discontinued the info is possibly worthless. I've had good luck with SR-4756 in the classic 16 bore load 2 1/2 dram equiv. and 1 oz of shot. put up in Federal hulls cut to 2 1/2 in. with the Remington wad. Obviously I have no idea of the conditions in Aus. but assume it's possible some new old stock of 4756 might be found?

In my non Nitro proofed guns I shoot Mag-Tech brass hulls loaded with 70 grs. of Ffg, conventional, classic wad column and 1 oz. of shot held in place with an overshot card and waterglass. I never could find a glue that would hold up so bought some waterglass. Life is good!!!

[peter72]

Progress slowed to a stop these last couple of weeks but this arrived today so I should be getting the rifle barrel shooting over the weekend. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181011/2dc9153aca8a0a694871f0af2d93b918.jpg

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[peter72]

Cast 70, 5% tin, all came out at .367.5/.368.
42 came in at +/- .2 grain, averaging 199 grains, the rest will go back in the pot.
Hitek coated and loaded 18, 20, 22, 24 & 26 grains BM2 (3031 equivalent).
If this wind eases off tomorrow them I'll see how she goes.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/faee0dc4b1f182af426336159114c883.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/6abf33c151793cf5964c584b7e245851.jpg

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[peter72]

Well D day arrived.
Was a bit nervous due to a couple of reasons.

Had I wasted $2500 on a gun that won't shoot.
Will I blow myself up.

Range was 40m.
100m next time.
First 2 groups were 4 shots, the rest 3.
A bit of unburnt powder residue left but that didn't seem to affect accuracy.
Federal LRP, 199gn accurate mould, hitek coated, unsized.
BM2 (3031 equivalent) 18, 20, 22, 24 & 26 grains.
Holy cow this thing shoots pretty **** well.
Who would've thought a 106 year old gun could shoot this well.
Sights weren't touched.
Will put them over my chrony soon.
No leading evident. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181014/245de99eb4752b83db4543d7cbe69faa.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181014/81cf6e1aeaa04ac2daf5fc47e8ea54e7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181014/438d8418f67c7700cc0550bbcd8adcb5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181014/11c3f9fab1a2dbbdc3ef49ac90fb8870.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181014/766da1d5a4f618f338a103b9d12183c9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181014/76103826de4e180c5bc91e63cd508c02.jpg

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[BlackpowderSweden]

Wow, that was realy good news!
Great shooting!
What velocity do you think you are at?
Using any filler in the case?

[peter72]

Wow, that was realy good news!
Great shooting!
What velocity do you think you are at?
Using any filler in the case?Well I was a bit premature in my celebrations.
Moved the target out to 100 metres and this is the best I got.
24 grains gave around 1440 fps over my chrony but a deviation of around 40 fps over 5 shots.
No filler, should I be using filler?
I've loaded up another batch for tomorrow if the wind holds off and will move the target to 50 metres.
Will be trying 26, 27, 28 & 29 grains.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181015/67a8e20810b600ffcc96e1602d2c2393.jpg

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[peter72]

Tried 26, 27, 28 & 29 grains BM2 at 50m.
26gns average 1513 fps
27gns average 1575 fps
28 gns average 1607 fps
29 gns average 1669 fps

28 gns showed some initial promise with 2 holes touching then it went haywire from there.

Next step is using polenta as a filler and start at 22grains, after that I'll up the tin level to maybe 7.5% from 5%.
FYI the bullet mould is a GC mold so that is an option but Im not really pushing those sorts of velocities.
Still open to suggestions.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181016/4114878c79e68aad3985cb1c45c7e5b3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181016/c82199cc672482bcd3ca45f2daa4fb0a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181016/60866d5747d141ed3a78b03ea1ee3e76.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181016/67f28fadffb9248eb50e197276e9a9e9.jpg

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[sharps4590]

For the 9.3 X 72R I think you need another couple hundred feet velocity. At 100 you could be too slow. As far as I know the standard load was around 1900 fps with an approximately 200 gr. bullet. As far as your alloy I'd stay close to Lyman #2 or softer.

[peter72]

The learning curve continues.
Loaded 20, 21, 22 & 23gns Bm2 under polenta.
Polenta and the chrony don't get on as seen below. Nfi why I didn't take a pic of the 22gn load.
Moved the chrony out to 2 metres on the 23gn group.
Next step in 18 & 19gns BM2 under polenta.
Adding polenta has increased fps drastically based on some of the ones that registered over the chrony.
First pic is 20gns fyi.

20gn, 904, 900, 1639, 1500, 2183

21gns, 1725, 2000, 1709, 1512, 1642

22gns, 1605, 1438, 420, Error, Error

23gns, 241, 1316, 1341, 1334, 1309
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181025/0fe1511f914fe09a1a651148d61172e6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181025/3d8f91dc3c46d73cec9f39cd33fc6edf.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181025/e0c1337b231f60cff5d33c4bf3543109.jpg

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[peter72]

An update for those following this thread.
I think I've found THE load.
FYI the black circles are around 2 inchs.

19gns BM2 + 29gns Polenta (48gn case capacity with slight compression).

1st pic- 6 oclock hold on circle, 18gns + 30gns polenta at 50m, not so flash.

2nd pic-Holding on black mark at bottom of A4 target, 19gns + 29gns polenta 3 shot group at 50m (2 dud primers).

3rd pic-Holding on black mark at bottom of A4 target, 19gns + 29gns polenta at 50m.

4th pic-6 oclock hold, 19gns + 29gns polenta at 75m.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181113/1e6f1fa0ed42edfe78c13bd1cb065ddd.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181113/982f8cb78e279736388209dff3b0b86e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181113/c6aed2f879c517a39b9c5aa707cb192a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181113/f5ed45c859daa34622bfbfc919c46303.jpg

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