Titegroup?

[Half Dog]

Details:
9mm Kimber Custom II (1911 A1)
Barrel slugged 0.355"
Boolits sized 0.356"
Boolits are 15 BHN (using a Lee hardness gage)
120 grain TC
Hi-Tek coated (passed the smash test)
Speed - Unknown, I do not have a chronograph
Expanding the brass using a M Die
Crimped using a factory crimp die
Powder - 3.4 - 3.7 gr. Titegroup
Primer - Federal Small Pistol

Question:
I am having a leading issue. The lead streaks go down the entire barrel with more deposits seeming to be towards the crown. According to the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 3.3 to 3.7 grains of Titegroup can be used safely so I feel the speed is not excessive. I also saw where someone else was having issues using Titegroup with the Hi-Tek coating but I'm not sure his conclusion was accurate. Can someone share his experience with this issue and hopefully what I need to do different to eliminate the leading issue?

Thanks in advance

[oteroman]

What is the speed of your Bullets?
You want “us” to fix/help you but you don’t want to buy/use a 100 buck chronograph.



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[oteroman]

TG is the worst powder to use with lead and lead coated bullets by the way.


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[dkonrai]

Yup. Plus 1 on that Intel. 231, bullseye or unique for lead.
TG is the worst powder to use with lead and lead coated bullets by the way.


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[tazman]

I would say that since you are using coated boolits and still getting leading, the boolit size is too small. I would try .357 or, if it will chamber, .358.
I use Titegroup with a Lyman 356402 120(nominal) grain boolit that is sized .357 in my Range Officer and get no leading at all. I coat the boolits with tumble lube(White Label X-Lox).
My alloy is range scrap that is water dropped from the mold without any further heat treating. I doubt mine are harder than yours.
I am loading 4.0 grains of Titegroup and getting roughly 1100fps.
My Range Officer also slugs at .355 but will chamber up to .358 without problems.
I have never tried a boolit sized .356 in it since my other 9mm barrels slug larger and I use the same loads for all of them.
I also use Titegroup in my 45acp, my 40S&W, and my 38 specials all with cast boolits.

[Rcmaveric]

I use Tightgroup at 3.5g. I would try a .357 bullet. I dont get any leading. Just antimony wash. These are air cooled bullets.

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[sigep1764]

Not all of us shoot at ranges that allow the setup of a chronograph so not all of us have one. I for one shoot at an indoor range with multiple lanes in use from open to close. Since there are always lanes in use, there is no safe way to set up anything beyond the firing line. Targets are hung on automated cable systems.

The OP gave us plenty of info in order to start offering suggestions and possible solutions. 356 is only 1thou over groove diameter, others suggested using 357 or 358. Another place to look is to see if the 9mm cases are swaging the boolits smaller than groove diameter allowing gas cutting.

Oteroman, simply stating that Titegroup is the worst powder for shooting cast boolits is of no help without the story of your experience with using that particular powder. Would you mind sharing it?

[tazman]

I am lucky in that the club where I shoot has individual walled off pistol ranges available where I can put up any equipment I wish without worry about other shooters.
There ranges are fairly short, pistol length ranges but very handy.
I understand the issues with indoor ranges and chronographs. Many chronos won't work under electric lights in any case.
Outdoor ranges that are busy can also be a problem for chrono use for the same reason mentioned by sigep1764.

[Mal Paso]

Crimped using a factory crimp die


Pull a loaded round down and measure the bullet diameter.

[JimB..]

Pull a loaded bullet and see if the coating is intact. Increase size as suggested by others. Stop using the FCD.

Your load doesn’t seem out of line.

I shoot a lot of coated bullets with titegroup, no problems. Obviously others have different experiences.

[kungfustyle]

From my experiance there is nothing wrong with Tightgroup. I shoot it with cast in everything 380, 38special, 357, 45 ACP and 44 Mag. It's not the tighgroup. Your size is probably off. The factory crimp die is what is killing the loads. It's great for rifles but sizes down the lead too much for pistols. Loose the crimp die and seat all the bullets with your reloading die then go back and put a slight taper crimp with your non factory crimp die.

[Rcmaveric]

I have found that if using the Lee FCD for 9mm. Seat and crimp separately makes the difference. I suspect that die is crimping before the bullet is fully seated and that is what causes the problem. I have dummy round. I adjust the FCD so it seats the bullets without crimping to the dummy. Seat all my bullets. Then i adjust the crimp to my dummy so that it only crimps and doesnt seat. That makes the difference for me.

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[LaPoint]

I had the same problems with Titegroup using mixed brass. I realized that I wasn't belling the case mouth enough. After slightly increasing the bell on case mouths my leading problem disappeared. JimB's advice is sound.

[Half Dog]

I want to say thanks for the responses. It will be a couple of weeks but I'm looking forward to trying your suggestions.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If your boolits aren't being swaged down from the FCD, there is another thing to consider...
New 1911 clones tend to have abrupt throats(most need chamfering for boolit use), That is compared to most other 9mm semi-auto's.
Have you made a few dummy rounds with your PC'd boolits?
When you cycle them, is the PC scraped off?
Also, maybe try some lubed boolits.

[marek313]

Couple things here I would change.

1. Size to .357
2. Try different powder as TG burns really fast and really hot.
3. 3.4-3.7gr of TG sounds really low. I run Lee 356-125-2R which drops at 130gr with 4gr of TG when I have to use TG but I try not to. Little bit more powder might actually help obtrude that bullet properly and seal gasses.

[tranders]

I had a tough time using Titegroup in 9mm with lead projectiles. I gave up and switched to plated for 9mm. No problems with TG in 38 Special and 45acp with lead projectiles.

I think Titegroup isn't the best choice for lead because it burns hot and fast and all things must be about perfect to eliminate leading. IMHO

[Rcmaveric]

For me it seams Tight Group likes room to grow. Works great in small charges with space. It works adequately in 9MM Luger for me, but i feel there are better powders. I really havent pursued anything else because it works good enough to ring steel at 15 yards. I do want to try Unique but i also want to try some plane based gas checks to see if that will help tighten up the accuracy.

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[Dieselhorses]

Not sure where a chronograph would solve anything in this situation. Bullets need to "obturate". "Obturation" is the expansion of the bullet inside bore, thus preventing any hot gases from beating your slug to the finish line. You can achieve this by softening your alloy. I don't do "Hi-Tek" but I powder coat. I have found that powder coating is quite forgiving in many ways. Good luck!

BTW, I pulled bullets loaded with Tite Group that were stored "bullet face down" from 2 years ago-powder coat not damaged.

[bobthenailer]

Athough I don't use Tightgroup in the 9mm or 38 super as med burn speed powders give me better accuracy, I have never had a leading or accuracy issue in a straight walled case from 38 special to 454 casull or pistol cartages in 380, & 45acp with lead bullets.
I just finished of my second 8lb jug of Tightgroup recently, and have bought another.

[engineer401]

I’ve never had lead issues with Tite Group with 38 or 9mm. My lead hardness is closer to 10.

[Half Dog]

Thank you all for the information. I got a chance to cast 100 more boolits and I'm excited to try your suggestions. For me to see which issue is causing the issue, I'll start with sizing the boolits 0.357" and I'll let you know how this works.

Thanks again.

[MtnGunner]

I’ve had great luck with tote group and properly sized bullets.

[hermans]

Cannot comment on the load with Titegroup since we do not get it here, but I agree with the others that you should size your boolits to at least .357 and even bigger if you can get them to chamber properly. Should help to get a better seal.

[BD]

I've burned 16 lb of Titegroup in the .45acp using sized and Felix lubed bolts with no leading issues, so I don't know that I'd blame the powder first thing. Leading the full length of the barrel is usually a size/obduration issue so the first thing I'd do is pull a boolit and make sure the FCD isn't reducing the diameter too much or wrecking the coating.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I too would go to a .357, even .358 if they will chamber. Also the same for the Lee FCD, it may be damaging/resizing your bullets after seating. A light taper crimp, enough to remove the flare and just a touch more for a crimp is all that is needed.

[TMenezes]

For those that don't like hotter than average burn temp of TG, I read that True Blue has one of the lowest burn temps. I tried it and found it to work really well for me, just took a coyote a few days ago with a mild 357 mag load.

[LaPoint]

I thought that TG was causing my leading problems in my Wolff barreled 9mm G22 but I wasn't belling the case mouth enough. The leading went away after I increased the bell. I didn't like the amount of smoke from TG so I switched to Alliant's Sport Pistol. Noticeably less smoke w/ ASP.

[David2011]

TG is the worst powder to use with lead and lead coated bullets by the way.


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A week and no explanation of the comment. I've burned about 50 pounds of Titegroup in 12 years and while I agree that it produces some smoke most of that was the lube and not the powder. It's very popular for .40 S&W in USPSA even though it doesn't show up in many published load recommendations. It's not terribly dirty and it's economical when shooting a lot. I have never failed to make major power using my preferred load of TG so I fail to see why it's so terrible. I don't think I have used it for 9mm and if I have it wasn't much so will end my comments there.

[Half Dog]

Update:

Thank you all for your valuable input.

I cast 150 more boolits (15 BHN) and sized them to 0.357". I coated, sized, then coated again using the Hi-Tek coating. I'm using a Hornady LnL press and I adjusted the M Die to flare the brass to 0.400" O.D.. That looked like an excessive flare but it didn't compress the boolits. I used 3.5 grains of Titegroup, kept the same seating depth, and I adjusted the FCD so the taper crimp measured 0.3815". I pulled a boolit and I didn't notice any change in the boolit diameter. I'm seating the boolit at one station then using the FCD to crimp at the next station. I loaded 50 rounds and had trouble containing my excitement.

I fired the 50 rounds and I still had leading in the barrel but not near as bad. It is possible that I might not have cleaned all of the lead from the barrel but it seems clean now. I plan to shoot some J bullets prior to trying again.

It doesn't seem like the FCD is affecting the boolit but I plan on using a TC die in its place to make sure.

Any more input would be greatly appreciated.

[Dieselhorses]

Pay attention to "Engineer401 and Hermans" posts. "Lead hardness" and "diameter" are the keys to "bullet obturation". Bullet needs to EXPAND going down bore! I don't care what kind of coating you use! Matter of fact, I found a sweet spot in BHN for my 38/357 where I don't even use gas checks and very little coating and STILL no leading. I size to .358 AFTER coating, never have issues. First I started loading for 500 S&W, boy I thought I had it licked. I used alloy at 23 or 24 BHN and that was a mistake! Bullet bounced all over the inside of barrel! After 2 days of cleaning the 8" barrel I learned rightly.

[Mal Paso]

Copper is sticky. A copper removing bore solvent might be a good idea before switching to lead. Ammonia was the active ingredient I think. Too long ago. LOL When patches stop coming out green you got all of it.

[gwpercle]

If everything you try still leaves lead, here's what I did ........purchased a
NOE mould 358 - 124 - Truncated Cone - Gas Check
Cast from 50-50 COWW and scrap lead, which is a pretty soft mix, sized .357 or .358 depending on the pistol . Lubed with Lithium - Beeswax lube.
The gas check does the trick, protects the base when seating the boolit and protects the boolit base while going down the barrel . Bullseye , Titegroup, Red Dot and 700X can all be loaded rather warmly with no leading.
The NOE store shows they still have one 3 cavity and one 4 cavity and three 5 cavity aluminum moulds still in stock if you want one . Very few GC 9mm moulds are to be found...trust me!
Sure did solve my problems !
Gary

[fredj338]

I would switch powders but many like TG. Try a bigger bullet. I size 0.357" for all my 9mm. I will load with almost anything but TG. Also ditch the LFCD IMO, solution to a non existent problem.

[sigep1764]

Next step is to scrub that barrel slick clean. I would probably get a tight fitting jag and wipe some JB bore paste on 10 patches and run each through the barrel. The JB bore paste is used to smooth out tooling marks. Do a little at a time, you cant put metal back. Use a solvent to clean it all out. Then I would try sizing .358. YMMV, but this has worked a couple times for me in the past.

[jonp]

If your boolits aren't being swaged down from the FCD, there is another thing to consider...
New 1911 clones tend to have abrupt throats(most need chamfering for boolit use), That is compared to most other 9mm semi-auto's.
Have you made a few dummy rounds with your PC'd boolits?
When you cycle them, is the PC scraped off?
Also, maybe try some lubed boolits.

Thats the problem with my Kahr CW's.

BTW: TG is no better or worse with boolits than others. I use it all the time

[rsrocket1]

3.5 seems awefully low. The Hodgdon site says for 115 LRN 3.9-4.3g Titegroup and for 124g plated 3.6 - 4.1g. I use the Lee 356-120-TC at 1.115" COL and found the best load to be 4.2g Titegroup which gives me 1138 fps from a 4.25" barrel and a nice small 5 fps SD. 4.4g gives me 1200fps but I don't need the extra speed so I stick with 4.2g. Titegroup likes to be loaded at near max pressures to burn cleanly. At even slightly lower pressures, it is very smokey and produces sooty cases and larger spreads in MV. The higher pressures also help obturate in the bore to seal off gas blow by in marginally small bullets. If your bullets are more than about 0.5 mils too small or too hard, then you simply won't get the bullet to seal the barrel. The best cure is to use fat enough bullets that don't need expansion to begin with.

[Half Dog]

UPDATE*

I replaced the FCD with a TC die and found an issue. The rounds wouldn't chamber using the TC die. I reinstalled the FCD, backed it out, and brought it back down until the round would chamber. I pulled the bullet and found the diameter went from 0.357 to 0.355". I feel that a 0.357" boolit will not chamber in my handgun. I'll need to do that several more times to make sure the final diameter is consistent but I feel the 0.357" boolit is too big. I tried to measure the diameter of the chamber near the grooves (please help with the correct term) and measured 0.380", which helped to support my theory.
It seems that I need to go with a hotter load or a softer boolit to get the proper seal. I feel that my next step should be to load some of the 10 BHN boolits sized to 0.356", use 4.0 grains of the Titegroup, and use the TC die.
Does anyone know of another use for a FCD? I have one that will be collecting dust.

Thanks

[sigep1764]

Seat a 357 sized boolit with the TC die. Take a sharpie marker and color in the case and boolit. Chamber it from the magazine, don't be gentle about it, and then eject it. The look for spots of the sharpie missing and determine where it is hanging up. My money is on not closing the belled case enough with the TC die.

[Half Dog]

Great info. I'll give that a try.

[sigep1764]

You're on the right track, you've reduced the leading. All trial and error and it can be frustrating, but it you keep at it, you'll get there and the next pistol or rifle or caliber will be all the easier for your learning and struggles on this one.

[chutestrate]

I was given advice a while ago to size my Lee 120 gr bullets to .358. Worked like a charm, no leading. I use it in all my 9mm's, and I'm not looking back. I've used Titegroup, and other powders successfully.