.44/.45’s: Hunting At The Lower End

[rodwha]

I’d like to hear of those who load and hunt with .44’s or .45’s using a more standard weight (180-255 grns) where their loads are producing no more than say 550 ft/lbs, especially something along the lines of the .44 Spl or standard .45 ACP/Schoefield/Colt.

I’d also like to hear from those with experience using softer lead (5-9 BHN).

Expansion, penetration, and wound channels.

[osteodoc08]

44 special and 45 colt have been getting it done for years. Depending on your game and range, you would most likely do just fine. Shot placement is key. I’m in GA and could easily take a deer within my iron sight range with either.

[Wolfer]

Ive taken several deer with a 45 colt. Different 245/255 gr boolits and some jacketed bullets. All pushed to 900 to 1050 fps. After several deer I knew what I might expect after the shot.

My big eye opener was in taking 2 deer with my 58 Rem cap and ball. Using the Lee 452-200 RF and all the FFFg I could get in the chamber. These ran right at 700 fps over my chrony.

2 deer are not a good test but these acted( distance traveled after the shot ) pretty much the same as they would with the heavier loads. Shot placement means everything.

If you put one of these low powered loads through both lungs there may not be a very good blood trail but it won't be very long. 30 to 70 yds is common. CNS hits are down right there but may get back up. If a deer drops in its tracks I shoot it again. Twice Ive had them jump to their feet at the second shot but didn't go but a few yards before piling up for good.

Edit
In rereading you post you asked about wound channels, expansion etc. I shoot the same alloy in everything bhn 10 but the 58 Rem. It gets pure lead. The one boolit I recovered from the 58 had hit quite a bit of bone. I didn't measure or weigh it but believe I could have loaded it back in the gun and shot it again.

I generally use a cup type HP in my heavier loads but wouldn't with the low powered ones. I fear penatration may suffer. With the heavy loads they generally exit with a better blood trail but they still go about as far.

[kingrj]

Not much data but I have taken 3 deer with a .45 ACP loaded to super velocities that duplicate normal .45 Colt loads..All three fell within 25 yards or dropped on the spot..I chose to add a follow up shot on all three...this was the same result that I have had using heavy .45 Colt loads in the 1300 fps range with 255 grain cast bullets...Big fat bullet that gets inside and hits vital organs kills the deer...Penetration is the key with most handguns used in hunting..I have had complete failures using a lightly constructed 200 gr. hollowpoint in the .44 mag loaded to well over 1500 fps...

[Harter66]

I shot some hogs 135-165# with a 454424 both an original Lyman round groove and the NOE version . Cast 50/50 WW/1-20 at 890 fps in a 45 Colts carbine .
17 yd hit a heavy rib going in exited through the meat just above the elbow it cut about a .700 hole in the exit shield , 24" . The 165# boar was juiced up on a full run , double lung , 200 yd found lung bled out .

47 yd 12" through , half inch exit hole in the offside shield , double lung , heart clipped , staggered around half turn dropped in a heap .

Powder burn , literally feet (6-10?) , 36" through , entered right shoulder/chest cutting 2 ribs , about and inch missing out of the 2nd rib , it cut a half inch skin hole the left flank and ham tend to suggest a 3/4" or more hole . This little piggy at 135# went down in a heap feet to the compass points .

None of the bullets were recovered .

[gitu1]

I took a couple of deer here in SC and Ga last year using a 45 Colt. Deer went less than 20 yards. With lube, mine were 260 gr.

[sixshot]

If you're getting good hits & good penetration with either the 44 or the 45 you will be just fine. I've been using both for about 50 years & big bullets with a good, wide meplat does a fine job on about any game animal. If you shoot really soft alloy's like 5 BHN then you will have to use a gas check or shoot really slow loads or you will have severe leading pretty fast. Moving up to 8-10 BHN & powder coating will make a huge difference in what you can do with hand gun bullets.
If you're going to use light weight HP's & try to run them at high speed you are going to run into trouble in a hurry if you're shooting deer, hogs, antelope, etc. You have slow that bullet down & give it a chance to penetrate or it's doomed from the start.
In the last month I've taken 3 deer & 1 antelope with 4 different revolvers & 4 different bullets & velocities. Two were with HP's but I ran them at a speed where they would expand & penetrate. One was a 327 magnum & a 135 gr HP. The shot was 73 yds & broke a rib going in, took out both lungs & broke a rib going out. If I over run that HP bullet it will fail. The other HP was a 217 gr 45 caliber SWC style with a wide HP. This was from my old model shorty & was running 965 fps. I shot the doe at 61 yds behind the last rib, nicked the spine & hit the lungs, dropping her where she stood, perfect performance because I didn't over drive the HP.
The other 2 were with a different 45 & a 260 Keith solid & with my Bisley 41 magnum & a 230 gr solid, both one shot kills. Hit them right with good bullets & eat backstraps.

Dick

[Mr_Sheesh]

Makes me wonder how a .45 ACP 230 grain TC cast bullet would do; I'd pick a 10" or 14" barreled Contender in 45 Colt over that though, with a 255 grain or so cast in it, seems more humane and effective.

[OFFSHORE]

If you're getting good hits & good penetration with either the 44 or the 45 you will be just fine.

Dick

+1 with Sixshot's post. That is the beauty of a cast boolit. . .penetration! The ability to get into the boiler room and get the job done at modest velocities. Using a accurate bullet with a wide meplate (min. 65%/70% bullet dia.) ensures a wider wound channel, massive internal damage and most times a nasty exit hole for better blood trailing. 44 and 45 caliber slugs are already a decent size hole to work with as they are. . .just get it there (accuracy) and let the boolit do the rest.

[725]

+1 w/ sixshot. an added notation about big meplat solids, is that they tend to track straight through the animal. it's been my experience, at least.

[luvtn]

Makes me wonder how a .45 ACP 230 grain TC cast bullet would do; I'd pick a 10" or 14" barreled Contender in 45 Colt over that though, with a 255 grain or so cast in it, seems more humane and effective.
The truncated cone has a narrow meplat. WFN boolits make large long wound channels.
luvtn

[glockky]

I have killed several deer with a 230gr XTP out of a glock 21 running about 875fps.

[500Linebaughbuck]

i've used 250gr keith,hp and penta hp and 280gr wfn gc. they were 40:1, 30:1, 16:1 and 10:1. every deer was thru and thru and they were going 800-1000fps. the furthest i had to shoot was 51 yards and the closest was 3 yards. i never hit the shoulder, just lungs. i've been using 44 spl and 250gr penta hp(40:1) and 7.5gr of unique that go thru ruger sbh(5.5" barrel). i don't think i have shot a 44mag for about 2 or 3 years.

oh, and the furthest i had track one was 20+/- yards.

[rodwha]

Actually I am loading 2 various black powder revolvers. At the moment I have a mold for a 170 and a 195 grn WFN bullet I designed with Accurate, but intend on modifying the design to lengthen it a bit to help fill up the slack in the chambers.

I sent some bullets to a fellow with the same guns and powders and asked if while he was testing them if he’d run a few over his chrony using my more accurate powder charges. Using Triple 7 powder (3F) and my 195 grn bullet showed an average of 1002 fps. I actually assumed it would have been a bit faster as I’ve estimated what I was producing by the few other similar results posted online. Really thought I was getting +/- 500 ft/lbs with my Ruger and likely low 400’s with my Remington. And it could be his charges were a bit off or that the powder wasn’t up to snuff as some claim it loses potency over time once opened.

I’ve had fill issues with my bullets and figured I’d likely try 2% tin from Rotometals. I’d prefer to stay within 10 BHN as it shouldn’t be too stressful on the loading levers but I also like the idea of them being able to expand a little.

As an aside I’ve also contemplated a shallow HP version. I’ve seen how similar bullets, but a bit heavier (240 grns), have easily penetrated nose to tail through an adult hog, and I’ve read of the same sort of thing with non/little expanding lead bullets from the .44 Spl and .45 Colt. Don’t always want or need 24+” of penetration. Not to mention an ever wider wound channel might be just great. Quite frankly I’ve seen 24” of penetration in gel using just a lowly 140 grn lead ball.

[Bigslug]

I've mentioned it many times, but I think penetration is not something you need to be slightly concerned with regarding solid lead bullets. I've gotten nine milk jugs worth of penetration out of a 230 grain LBT with a .32" meplat travelling at the standard GI hardball speed of 830 fps. My own unofficial matrix equates that to a solid yard of gelatin, FWIW. Had the same result with a 130 grain WFN .32 at 1250fps. Both of those were a water-quenched wheel weight mix north of 20 BHN, and there was almost no deformation on either slug.

With the same load in the .32 and the alloy changed to 20-1, penetration dropped to four jugs - which I'd probably unofficially equate to about 16" of gelatin. Had the same result with a .38-40 rifle load using a 180 grain WFN at about 1350fps. Pleasant little mushrooms in both cases

My own inclination would be to choose a fairly aggressive meplat, load for accuracy and comfort, and not worry about expansion unless you're in an area with some weird legal requirement for it to do so. Pass through penetration is easy to achieve with non-expanding alloys, and that will give you consistent, predictable results. Expansion can be dependent on what tissues are hit and speed at impact, so there's a little more voodoo to contend with. Probably not likely to expand reliably at the BP handgun speeds you're dealing with anyway. Having seen deer take solid boiler room hits from HOT .45-70 hard alloy solids, and FAST Barnes TTSX's from .280 and .30-06, my experience suggests you're usually looking at about 10 seconds from impact to collapse regardless of what you shoot them with, and foot-pounds don't really mean much - remember the impact is no more "push" than you feel in recoil. You'll see a wound channel that's about as wide as your bullet - drive that through something important, and you've got your freezer-fillins.

Easy to overthink. It's worth remembering that the standard 1870's & '80's carbine & pistol rounds loading killed A LOT of game (and people) before the likes of Roy Weatherby convinced us they couldn't.

[GhostHawk]

^ Applause!

[Mr_Sheesh]

For deer country you could use a different boolit than your standard ones, set up to shoot same POI etc. and with a larger meplat, loaded by hand into the chamber on a 1911; Mine works perfectly with TC or RN, cast or lead bullets, but I wouldn't want to try a 45 Colt style bullet with a larger meplat in the magazine really.

[rodwha]

These are the revolvers in question:

https://i.postimg.cc/zB6F0YXD/D2_B445_E3-_E356-485_B-_AA7_C-91_A0_CD43_EF58.jpg (https://postimg.cc/34jGx6vz)upload pic (https://postimages.org/)

And these are the projectiles I have molds for:

https://i.postimg.cc/KYcfY5Hb/D27114_B9-_DE1_B-4_C03-9345-_B5_C0316_E43_C5.jpg (https://postimg.cc/18TwCDS7)

The ball is 0.457” in diameter. The 195 grn version is 0.460” long and the 170 grn version is just 0.400” long. The 285 grn version is modified and was intended for my Ruger (built from modern gun steel which can handle smokeless pressures) when I thought we’d be moving to Virginia putting black bears on the menu.

But I’d prefer a universal bullet for these and have been searching to find out if there is meat enough in the chambers of the Remington to bore a bit deeper to help match the excess space in my Ruger as I’d prefer these bullets to come close to the chamber mouths.

I’ve read of far too many people effectively and ethically using cast bullets (even RN designs and ones with a small meplat) with lower velocity loads. However one fellow, who claims to have a hill’s worth of animals all taken by pistols, claims these just aren’t effective, especially with a ball. However I’ve talked with plenty of people who use nothing but a ball who claim otherwise.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Aah, those aren't autoloaders LOL - Fun though! :) Is some sort of Minie ball possible for those?

[OFFSHORE]

Rodwha - That stainless Ruger Old Army in either .44 or .45 has been on my hit list for years. . .just haven't found a nice one in my price range yet. Very nice pistol, very accurate too. An old friend of mine has one and allows me to tinker with it at my leisure. . .he just won't sell it to me, but says it is in his Will to be left to me and that's not how I want it. Good luck with you project and keep us posted.

[rodwha]

Aah, those aren't autoloaders LOL - Fun though! :) Is some sort of Minie ball possible for those?

I suppose a hollow based bullet would work, but it isn’t necessary as it can’t be an undersized projectile, which is what a Minie Ball is. The chambers are 0.453” with grooves of 0.452”.

[rodwha]

Were the initial Old Army’s a true .44 cal or were they measuring the lands as they used to be? My Remington pictured also has grooves of 0.452” but was/is measured by the lands (mine is 0.442”).

It’s crazy the prices on some of these used pistols. I traded my father a Taurus pistol for mine. Much more reasonable for sure!

My Pietta Remington is fairly accurate and a steal at the prices from Cabelas during Christmas ($200), though I had to work it over a bit. I’m happy with it and am getting standard pressure .45 ACP performance with bullets.

[Harter66]

I did load some 45-200 SWC in an 1858 brasser with 20 gr of 777 it hit to sights and wasn't anything to fear . That example is .448 and .426x.440 . In spite of that it shoots well enough for 8" plates at 50 yd with RB and no pains in sprue placement .
The next meal on the plate however is exactly what you're doing . I have a 429421 that was altered to .448 . I have a Dragoon and I think it'll all fit with about 40 gr of FFg making it kind of a hand cannon and certainly everything an ROA would deliver .
I'm also using a screened BP vs factory stuff so the top end is somewhat lower . 25 gr of T7 in the brasser with a 141 RB gave me right at 1000 fps and the screened poured level to the cylinder mouth and compressed with the ball below flush gave me just over 900 fps . If the Dragoon will run the (now) 448421 as fast as I expect it will I'd have no qualms about any food animal up to 400# or so inside 60 yd .

The Picket conical when used in a Walker was intended to penetrate a horse , tack , and kill the rider behind it .
That was also it's intent in the Dragoon . It just wouldn't do it in the 58s and 60s . Fast forward 170 yr and we're still trying to do it ...... The Picket or virtually any 195-220 gr ball should do in any deer inside 50 yd with little concern beyond getting the ball in the right place . That has to be done of course with any choice . For whatever it's worth I've killed 5 hogs from 120-165# with a 900 fps 454424@250 gr at 900 fps with up to 36" of penetration and no recovered bullet from powder burn to 50 yd .
For whatever it's worth the 45-200 RCBS SWC I had dropped 205 in 1-20 and needed to be sized to get it chambered in the 58 .

[rodwha]

I did load some 45-200 SWC in an 1858 brasser with 20 gr of 777 it hit to sights and wasn't anything to fear . That example is .448 and .426x.440 . In spite of that it shoots well enough for 8" plates at 50 yd with RB and no pains in sprue placement .
The next meal on the plate however is exactly what you're doing . I have a 429421 that was altered to .448 . I have a Dragoon and I think it'll all fit with about 40 gr of FFg making it kind of a hand cannon and certainly everything an ROA would deliver .
I'm also using a screened BP vs factory stuff so the top end is somewhat lower . 25 gr of T7 in the brasser with a 141 RB gave me right at 1000 fps and the screened poured level to the cylinder mouth and compressed with the ball below flush gave me just over 900 fps . If the Dragoon will run the (now) 448421 as fast as I expect it will I'd have no qualms about any food animal up to 400# or so inside 60 yd .

The Picket conical when used in a Walker was intended to penetrate a horse , tack , and kill the rider behind it .
That was also it's intent in the Dragoon . It just wouldn't do it in the 58s and 60s . Fast forward 170 yr and we're still trying to do it ...... The Picket or virtually any 195-220 gr ball should do in any deer inside 50 yd with little concern beyond getting the ball in the right place . That has to be done of course with any choice . For whatever it's worth I've killed 5 hogs from 120-165# with a 900 fps 454424@250 gr at 900 fps with up to 36" of penetration and no recovered bullet from powder burn to 50 yd .
For whatever it's worth the 45-200 RCBS SWC I had dropped 205 in 1-20 and needed to be sized to get it chambered in the 58 .

I’m not so sure 20 grns of T7 pushing a 200 grn SWC wouldn’t be something to fear. I’d be surprised if you weren’t getting .44 Spl performance from that load. Not a monster load but certainly something to fear.

Is .448 the chambers and .426 x .440 the bore dimensions? If so I can’t say I’ve seen a bore so small, especially with chambers that far over bore.

What are the dimensions of your Dragoon?

[rodwha]

Another thing I haven’t found anyone who can say/has done so is whether or not boring chambers deeper effects the accurate charge.

I use an adjustable rifle measure that graduated by 10 grns. I’ve merely eyeballed 5 grn increments and have done no other trials of charges. I have recently scratched in marks for 5 grn increments feeling I can easily eyeball 2.5 grn increments and will further test my pistols. So far my Remington NMA prefers the 30 grn setting (weighs ~33 grns with 3F Olde Eynsford) and my Ruger prefers the 35 grn setting (weighs ~38 grns of OE). These preferred charges stay the same whether it’s a 144 grn ball or any of the various bullets I’ve tried.

My question has been whether or not boring chambers deeper would change this or not. I’m happy enough with the performance levels each give but would like to increase bullet length to where both guns load to a similar depth with their powder charges. Anyone happen to have done so and can attest to what they noticed?

[Harter66]

I’m not so sure 20 grns of T7 pushing a 200 grn SWC wouldn’t be something to fear. I’d be surprised if you weren’t getting .44 Spl performance from that load. Not a monster load but certainly something to fear.

Is .448 the chambers and .426 x .440 the bore dimensions? If so I can’t say I’ve seen a bore so small, especially with chambers that far over bore.

What are the dimensions of your Dragoon?

I only checked the Dragoon cylinders and those are .448 . Scandless to have had it almost 2 yr without shooting it . It'll get a work out here in a couple weeks though ...... until I run out FFg and ownself anyway .

As for the Remmy I didn't have any of the typical pressure markers and that was a 2 cylinder load test really just to see if it would fit . I should elaborate that I use VOLUME not scale grains . I can just clear and run 25 VOLUME gr of FFg Goex with RB .
Always approach with caution www data etc it was in mine but might let go in yours .......
I would tend to not get to excited about even Schofield load levels .
Yes the Remmy is extremely tight bored and the chambers are that big to fix the mismatched chambers and the cylinder face that looked like it was used to drive a fence post . It's all happy now and never saw a steady diet of the big stuff .

[rodwha]

My understanding is standard .45 ACP loads (original 230 grn running around 350 ft/lbs) are equivalent to the old 28-30 grn Schofield loads. That’s certainly something to fear. But even the old 300 ft/lbs .44 Spl stuff was potent enough and effective on people. Of course people behave differently than animals. Animals don’t have a psychological aspect and won’t just give up like some people.

[Harter66]

I by fearing I meant on the operator end not the business end . The 90 gr RB in the 36 cal over 15-20 is pretty intimidating .

[rodwha]

:guntootsmiley:

[Bigslug]

My understanding is standard .45 ACP loads (original 230 grn running around 350 ft/lbs) are equivalent to the old 28-30 grn Schofield loads. That’s certainly something to fear. But even the old 300 ft/lbs .44 Spl stuff was potent enough and effective on people. Of course people behave differently than animals. Animals don’t have a psychological aspect and won’t just give up like some people.

All the "will" in the world won't carry very far with a 3/8th's + inch hole through it's aorta. One of the more interesting findings from the late '80's-early '90's FBI research was that hydrostatic effects don't significantly come into play until the impact speed reaches/exceeds 2000 fps. At that level, displacement of tissue becomes rapid enough to cause tearing beyond that tissue's ability to stretch. Below that, you're pretty much just shoving meat out of the way and the wound channel isn't significantly wider than the bullet itself. It's also worth considering that wound DEPTH can serve to create more damaged surfaces (wound VOLUME) to cause bleed-out than wide and shallow. It really comes down to shooting to make a drain that empties the bathtub ASAP.

[DougGuy]

I did have one guy want his ROA cylinder reamed to take a .453" boolit, and I converted (butchered) 3 reamers to use for this. Percussion cylinders are very difficult to fit tooling into, and once modded, the tooling is worthless for anything else besides another percussion cylinder of the same caliber. He seemed happy with it but I never heard a range report from him. Pics are on the Cylinderhone FB page if you scroll you can prolly find them.

[OFFSHORE]

All the "will" in the world won't carry very far with a 3/8th's + inch hole through it's aorta. One of the more interesting findings from the late '80's-early '90's FBI research was that hydrostatic effects don't significantly come into play until the impact speed reaches/exceeds 2000 fps. At that level, displacement of tissue becomes rapid enough to cause tearing beyond that tissue's ability to stretch. Below that, you're pretty much just shoving meat out of the way and the wound channel isn't significantly wider than the bullet itself. It's also worth considering that wound DEPTH can serve to create more damaged surfaces (wound VOLUME) to cause bleed-out than wide and shallow. It really comes down to shooting to make a drain that empties the bathtub ASAP.

+1 with Bigslug's post. Deep and wide. . .Grande Canyon Boolits! LOL

[pls1911]

Any .44 or .45 at nominal loads (700 fps+) will slap hog or deer silly at appropriate ranges (less than 50 yards) with proper bullet placement.
I've gravitated to a .45 colt with RCBS 270-SAA Semi wadcutters at around 800 fps . Heavy bullets make big holes without needing a lot of speed, and the slap factor of flat nosed bullets is incredibly effective and a very satisfying sound. Standard weight 250 grain SWC slugs work about as well.