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Krag1902
09-06-2018, 01:12 PM
There has been, over the years, some misinformation concerning Sam Squibb. Some believe he was a pseudonym some someone else, or didn't exist at all. For starters, he was real, and he wasn't from Akron.

Sam Squibb, along with his fellow members of the somewhat less-than-illustrious Cypress Hill Rifle and Revolver Assn., which was organized in 1906. Two years after that, the club took delivery of sixteen 1903 Springfield rifles. It was very quickly discovered that their short 200 yard Schuetzen range with its rocky backstop wouldn't safely contain the high speed jacketed bullets of the government issued ammunition.
Everyone was in agreement that hand loaded cartridges seemed to be the answer, and the low speed, virtually glance proof lead bullet was the necessary bullet.
In the main, Sam Squibb led the search for suitable bullets and suitable loads. He had material assistance form fellow members Leonard S. Miller and Charles Gebhard
Gebhard was a tool and die maker who was able to shape cherries and cut molds, but it is recorded that Squibb's first experimental mold for a 180 grain spitzer bullet was made for him by club member Mr. Haskell. Long story considerably shortened, Squibb's early efforts were frustrating and educational exercises in burning too much powder and looking at lead plated .30 caliber bores.
In 1920, the reloading tool trade was in a state of flux. The war had put Ideal's normal production on the back burner and it had yet to recover. Modern-Bond had just emerged with a quality line of tools backed by men of influence. The start-up Yankee Specialty Co.. seized the rare opportunity the tool shortage occasioned as did the fledgling firm organized by Warren S. Belding and Nate Mull. Started in 1916 as a mail order concern to supply the shooter trade, the pair sought to get their fair share of the new post-war market. They tooled up to produce a line that included bullet molds What they needed were bullet designers with a following to help lay a solid foundation. They solicited designs from Elmer Keith, Fred Ness of the NRA Dope Bag, and the triumvirate from the Cypress Hills R&R Club.
Gebhard turned out for them the perfected plain based 170 gr. pointed bullet. It shot best at 1,200-1,400 fps. For a time, it was very popular.
Squibb tried other bullet forms and shapes but leaned toward a spitzer point.
By and by, he arrived at what was the perfected design and the two hundred yard targets proved him right.
Leonard Miller and S. Squibb co-devised what he considered to be an improvement over the Pope taper base, multi-band target bullet later to be known as Lyman 308403.
In March of 1922, the 168 grain Squibb-Miller bullet squared off with the Pope bullet at the annual Indoor Rifle Tournament in Brooklyn. John Hession, twice winner of the Wimbledon Cup, shot the match with a Pope-Springfield against Miller and his version, and beat Hession in that important match by a single point. The Squibb-Miller bullet, aka Belding and Mull 311168, helped put the firm on the map.
Sam Squibb's bullet became best known, Lyman brought it out in 1925 as 311413, one of the most widely used .30 caliber bullets in the history of our hobby. Prior to this, B&M cataloged Squibb's bullet as 311169.
In certain small circles these lead bullet designs had gained a publicity and reputation and, just as importantly, some ink in the rifleman's press that made Belding and Mull a noteworthy name.
I recently acquired a highly modified Winchester mold with Sam Squibb's name stamped on the handles. The blocks are brass or bronze and are pinned on to the handles. The Winchester sprue plate is retained. The digit 2 on the plate leads me to believe that this was the second variation of the same bullet. A bullet cast from a B&M 311169 mold fit perfectly into this Winchester mold and vice versa. I can only conclude that this mold probably belonged to Mr. Sam Squibb close to a century ago.

This is my first time posting pictures. I hope they "take".

Bent Ramrod
09-06-2018, 05:57 PM
Wow, that is great stuff! Thanks for posting it. That mould is a great find, too.

frankenfab
09-06-2018, 08:46 PM
Super cool.

GunFun
09-06-2018, 08:56 PM
Very neat. Let us know how it shoots for you, and if you can see any differences between it an the 311413 molds.

Jack Stanley
09-06-2018, 10:03 PM
Thanks for the write up and history , I enjoyed that .

Jack

Walks
09-06-2018, 10:11 PM
Know I understand why my DAD always shot the #311413 in his SPRINGFIELD 1903 with LYMAN #48 Peep & Globe front.

Rattlesnake Charlie
09-06-2018, 10:31 PM
Really cool story. Thanks for sharing.

Gewehr-Guy
09-06-2018, 11:45 PM
My favorite bullet in my Krag is the Pope 311403, but now I'm going to have to find that Squibb-Miller mould and do a side by side comparison. The Ideal mould I have is a four cavity 311403, but it doesn't have the tapered base, was that only used in the old Pope made moulds? My base band measures a full .315, that I size to .314 to seat in an unsized Krag case. The 311413 has not shot that well for me, but I think maybe I was just pushing them too fast. Good photos and neat story,post some more!

Shopdog
09-07-2018, 04:17 AM
Nice write up,thanks for posting.

Krag1902
09-07-2018, 08:23 AM
Gewehr Guy, Taper base refers to the slight break on the base of the 308403 to get it started in the unsized case necks. I have the Squibb-Miller mold ( old B&M) and don't consider it an improvement over the Pope bullet. I have the Pope in an old Yankee mold. Frankly, I have had much better luck with other conventional bullets like 311284 and 311291. I've spent a lot of time with the Squibb bullet, trying to get it to shoot in a Model 54 30 WCF and I consider it to be time wasted.
I love old bullet molds. Next, since I have not overcome the picture posting barrier, I may let people take a gander at what may be the only Belding and Mull "multiple mould", their advertised gang mold that I don't believe was ever produced outside of this (tool room?) example. Pretty neat - eight cavities for the Squibb bullet.

Char-Gar
09-07-2018, 10:33 AM
I have long had an interest in the Squibb bullet and Sam Squibb. I understand he was from Lima Ohio. I have some historical information but nothing near as complete as what you have posted. I have the Lyman, B&M and H&G molds for that bullets.

Krag1902
09-07-2018, 11:21 AM
It seems like Sam didn't stray far from Brooklyn. I have found ads in the 1920s American Rifleman that he had placed. He did have a couple of articles telling about his shooting projects. I have a poor copy of a team photo Cypress Hills R&RC That was in National Sportsman, I believe. I've collected Sam Squibb and Belding and Mull lore for a long time.

Gewehr-Guy
09-07-2018, 12:38 PM
Krag1902, several years ago at the Sioux Falls gun show I had a nice visit with a man from NE, a loading tool collector, that had just found an Ideal loading tool with a heeled bullet, like a .32 Long Colt or something similar. Maybe you?

Krag1902
09-07-2018, 12:52 PM
It was a .41 Long Colt. Yes, I remember - it seems as though we discussed cast bullets for Krags,right?

georgerkahn
09-07-2018, 07:33 PM
Thank you for this marvelous post! In addition to reading it -- I'm pasting a copy in my "Shooting Stuff" folder on my computer, to readily be able to read it again. And -- best wishes with the mould!
geo

MT Gianni
09-07-2018, 08:44 PM
What a neat piece of history. Thank you.

Hamish
09-09-2018, 08:33 PM
I've owned a single cavity plain base Ideal 311413 for some years now, but never seriously considered working it up due to the bad reputation it has garnered among those who have tried to use it above its 1.2-1.4K sweet spot.

Thanks for the great thread Krag1902.

.22-10-45
09-21-2018, 03:38 PM
I too heard about the 311413 reputation for lousy accuracy. I owned a nice 1898 Krag but bore was very dark. Best jacketed accuracy at 100yds. was 1 1/2" no matter what load I tried. NECO had just came out with their pressure (fire) lapping kit and Wayne Swartz was kind enough to lend one to me. I wasn't going to set up a target but just for grins I set one out at 50yds...I'm glad I did. The coarsest grit was just a pattern, but as I progressed to thru to the finer abrasives...cleaning well between grits, groups started to shrink, until with the finest, I was getting 1 hole groups with bullets"lubed" for all practical purposes with abraisive. Bore was now shiney..even in grooves. There was a very very slight taper to bore..as close as I could measure only about .0001" (1/10 thousandt of inch) Bore slugged at .3105".
I tried several Lyman cast bullets that were supposed to be accurate in the Krag but I didn"t find real accuracy until I tried the 413 over 19grs. IMR4227. groups were around 1" at 100yds..this was with the tiny peep in the 1901 rear and std. blade front...Oh to have those peepers back!

Fishman
09-22-2018, 03:21 PM
What a fantastic write up and cool pictures too. Thanks!

wjham77
09-29-2018, 01:15 PM
So, did the number designation change on the molds, 311169 being early version, and 311168 being later version? I have one of the 311169 in nickel, but never knew the history in detail. I can take pics if it interests anyone?

beezapilot
09-29-2018, 05:39 PM
Nice write up.. thank you

Gewehr-Guy
09-29-2018, 08:03 PM
I've read something about nickel moulds but can't remember the details, were they Belding & Mull ?

Krag1902
09-29-2018, 08:52 PM
Yes, B&M. pure elemental nickel. Rustproof.

Krag1902
10-23-2018, 08:57 PM
I'm trying to attach photos of the Belding and Mull Multiple Mold for the Squibb bullet, which is the only one I have ever seen or heard of. It appears to have been made from an Ideal Armory Mold basic frame, which Ideal would have sold you in the early 1920s. I am guessing the initials A.F.P. identify the mold builder, or the mechanic who cherried it. There is a date in the lower right hand corner 1-11-24, which fits squarely into B&M mold production. The targets show some of the accuracy i have obtained recently from a Remington Russian MN and a Savage 99 .303 Savage. Both guns have aperture sights and are one hundred yard groups. I have doubts about the pictures showing up. I'll continue to work at it.229314

Krag1902
10-23-2018, 08:59 PM
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maxreloader
10-23-2018, 09:05 PM
Great stuff! Thank you for sharing!

beagle
10-27-2018, 08:09 PM
Just happen to have an original bronze Yankee mould for that design in good condition. The bullets shoot well from it and it drops them out like shelling peas.
When we were going HP crazy, I had a Lyman 311413 hollow pointed with a .100" cavity. At moderate velocities its good for an inch at 100 yards out of my Number 1 Ruger 06.
The 413 got its bad name from use in Springfields and too much DCM 4895. The guys weren't cast bullet savy and insisted on running it at near ball load velocities and it failed. Lower the velocity and you've got a very accurate bullet.
Good write up and I appreciate your sharing it./beagle

hermans
11-12-2018, 07:56 AM
Very nice history, and cool pic's too!

Krag1902
12-31-2018, 10:39 PM
Just now saw your question. The B&M 311169 was the Squibb, later known as Ideal 311413, and picked up and numbered this way by Lyman in about 1925. The
Belding and Mull 311168 was the Pope bevel-base 308403 clone essentially the same thing with one extra and narrower band. This Mold was also known as the Squibb-Miller.

RogerDat
01-01-2019, 01:15 AM
Interesting information thanks for taking the time to share.

madsenshooter
12-04-2019, 04:48 PM
Somewhere along the line there was a 311169 with a little .305" diameter band on the back of it's nose. 1947 B&M catalog still shows it. The nose is only .3025" ahead of that band. It fits a tight throated, 294" bored K31 like a glove!

John Boy
12-04-2019, 10:16 PM
Lyman brought it out in 1925 as 311413, one of the most widely used .30 caliber bullets in the history of our hobby

311413 The Squibb gas check bullet for the Springfield and other .30-06 rifles. Perhaps the most accurate gas check bullet yet produced. Excellent for target practice up to 600 yards. Has also been largely used for small game shooting in the Northwest, particularly for ducks at long range. Makes a most excellent load where one wishes to save the wear on his barrel from the full charged factory cartridge. Powder charge 16 grains Du Pont No. 80 powder, or 23 grains Hercules Lightning powder. Also very good for other 30 calibers. (GC, SP, 169 - TP is 413)
252393

Is it accurate at 600yds? I printed a 5 shot, 4" group on a 500 meter Ram Silhouette using W1894 30-30 with iron sights

John Boy
12-04-2019, 10:18 PM
http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_Bullet/Ideal-Lyman_Molds/Bullets/311413.JPG

quasi
05-01-2020, 04:53 AM
Cramer made moulds for this boolit as well. I have 2 3 cavity models, one casts at .317.

avogunner
05-01-2020, 06:37 AM
I have the H&G version of this design, their #20. It's my favorite for my 1903 and when keeping the velocity down to about 1500fps, I can usually shoot 1-1.5 MOA (when my eyes feel like it).
261373

To the OP, great post...thanks
Semper Fi

Pressman
05-01-2020, 03:33 PM
This is one of the most prized items in the collection. Early B&M Nickel Squibb. I often think I should own a 30 caliber rifle, just to see how well it shoots.

261419

261420

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green mountain boy
03-22-2021, 12:56 PM
I too have a 311413, after reading this great post i think i will start fooling around with it in 30/06,7.62x54r,K-31....sounds like fun to me !! thanks !

Wal'
06-01-2022, 10:52 PM
Also lucky to include what I think are two Yankee moulds in my small collection, both wadcutters, .32 & .38

300883

Green Frog
06-02-2022, 02:02 PM
Great write up, but one question remains. When and how did the term “Squib Round” come to mean a very underpowered round that could probably be expected to stick in the bore? I have long wondered about this dichotomy of meanings. Were some of old Sam’s rounds too underpowered? Did some users of his bullets take “less is more” to an disastrous extreme? Were there two totally different uses of the same word all along?
Remember, in the Harry Potter World, a squib is a magical person who has no magic… maybe the squib as a dud round concept came to us from UK English vs US English(?)
Inquiring minds…
Froggie

quasi
06-02-2022, 03:21 PM
My understanding is ‘Squib’ was a person that designed the boolit.

william iorg
06-03-2022, 12:33 PM
Several people wrote about the Squibb-Miller bullet and the results pages in Shooting and Fishing show some remarkable scores.
There are ads for the bullet and the mold.

This link in Google books will get you started with details on the bullet and loads. Remarkable shooting for a little over 1,000fps.

https://books.google.com/books?id=gJkwAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA639&dq=Squib-miller+cast+bullet&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwje3LXd15H4AhXGkWoFHT0rDFsQuwV6BAgIEAY#v =onepage&q&f=false

Page 6 starts the article and the left column of page 7 has some answers.

Prior to this article there is some interesting stuff on Squib and his.30-40 Remington and the then the rebore to a .33 Pope muzzle load and shortly there after the rifle was for sale....

william iorg
06-03-2022, 01:13 PM
The ads are from 1921300928
300929

Krag1902
06-04-2022, 12:54 PM
Squib and Squibb. Sam had nothing to do with squib loads but it doesn't prevent people still getting confused. Sam had two "b"'s in his name.

725
06-08-2022, 07:32 PM
Love history stories. Thank you for the effort to report.