Replica Warnings

[KCSO]

We almost need a sticky on this as about every month someone asks if the XXX replica Sharps, Hiighwall, ect is the one to buy. We all know there is a wide variation in quality out there and I sure hate to see suckers go home with stars in their eyes clutching their new Peedratty Sharps and thinking they will, "knock the spots off a skunk at 300 yards". Get say, Montana Charlie and Buuckshot and a couple others to work up a buyers guide that the newbies can look at before they get burned. But whoever does it need to be honest and pulll no punches.

Now I have to go home and rebarrel a Uberti Highwall that won't shoot a group.

[jjamna]

I think that is a very good idea.

[Don McDowell]

In the Sharps arena it basically comes down to this.
Pedersoli, CSharps, and Shilo, are all 3 dependably high quality. The other Italians can be good, or not:roll:
The question comes from do you want to spend your money on a foreign built gun, or one built by American craftsmen in the USA?
Highwalls there's Uberti, CSharps, the occasional run of Winchesters, and the Browning BPCR. Unless you really want to get spendy, and then you can look for a Cody Ballard, a Meacham or a Ron Long.
Mostly all the info and arquements about such things are available by a simple search as they happen fairly regular every month or two:drinks:

[Don McDowell]

:-D Forgot to add that I think a better sticky would be directed to powder types.
It should read something like this.

777 is NOT BLACK POWDER
Pyrodex IS NOT BLACK POWDER
Blackhorn 209 IS NOT BLACK POWDER
APP IS NOT BLACK POWDER
NONE OF THE SO CALLED SUBS ARE BLACK POWDER

BLACK POWDER IS GOEX, SCHUETZEN, SWISS, and occasionally there's a stash of Curtis and Harvey, or Elephant and others, and some times some stuff that comes from China. That are black powder.
:coffee:

[hydraulic]

KCSO: Spotted skunks are protected in Nebraska.

[montana_charlie]

Highwalls there's Uberti, CSharps, the occasional run of Winchesters, and the Browning BPCR.
Pedersoli started marketing their Hiwalls earlier this summer.
Nice looking guns with excellent barrels, but the lever is shaped wrong for a single-trigger rifle.
CM

[Don McDowell]

Are those Pedersoli guns or just remarked Uberti's?

[13Echo]

the Pedersoli Highwalls use Uberti actions with Pedersoli barrels.

Jerry Liles

[Don McDowell]

Well those might be some pretty fair rifles then.

[Red River Rick]

Pedersoli started marketing their Hiwalls earlier this summer.
Nice looking guns with excellent barrels, but the lever is shaped wrong for a single-trigger rifle.
CM

Too bad they aren't available here in Canada, yet. I was wanting to buy one earlier this summer but unfortunately that didn't happen.

I ended up buying a Pedersolli 74' Sharps "Competition", chambered in 45-90, with a 34" pipe and set triggers and mounted a "Parts Unknown" long range Soule sight on it. Nice shootin rifle. I had full intentions of taking it along on my recent "Bou" hunt, but the 13+ lbs and my recent "HA" kind of made me decide otherwise, perhaps next year.

So, I'm hoping that once the Pedersolli "Hi-Walls" are available here, I'll grab one and recut the chamber to 45-120.

RRR

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/RedRiverRick/Moulds%201/Pedersoli2.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/RedRiverRick/Moulds%201/PartsUnknownSoule.jpg

[montana_charlie]

the Pedersoli Highwalls use Uberti actions with Pedersoli barrels.
Let me amplify on that statement a little...

The receivers (empty ones) are supplied by Uberti.
Pedersoli heat treats the steel to their own specifications, and all internal parts are Pedersoli-made.
With the addition of Pedersoli wood and barrels, there is very little Uberti DNA to be found in the finished product.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/default.aspx?item=ArmiCategoriaDettaglio&CategoriaId=300&lang=en

The factory is aware that many interested shooters don't like the lever Pedersoli chose, and I know (for a fact) that they have received pictures of 'good looking' levers.
It is hoped that customer input will result in that cosmetic change.
CM

[Red River Rick]

MC:

Your right, the rifle look's great, except for the finger lever. What would possess them to put that "style" of finger lever on a "High Wall", looks way out of place. Hopefully they'll come to their senses and rectify the problem.

RRR

[montana_charlie]

What would possess them to put that "style" of finger lever on a "High Wall", looks way out of place.
It's a common shape found on Hiwalls, and would look just fine with a DST. But Pedersoli designed a single set trigger just for this rifle.

Trouble is...they neglected to make the lever 'fit' the trigger.
CM

[KCSO]

Here are a coupple of things found on Repliicas to illustrate what I am tlking about. The first pisture is The back of a breech block from a replica Sharps and you can see the back of the firing pin. This should be covered with a dovetailed in plate. As is the ggas from a pierced primer comes straight back into your eye. The second photo shows a two piece firing pin from a replica, this is not good as it takes a much stronger hammer fall to set off the gun. This is also a source of inconsistant ignition and will tend to spread groups. The last phooto shows a bushhed firing pin. The smaller pin closely fitted to the hole keeps primers from floowing back into the hole and jamming the gun or worres yet rupturing and blowing gas back at the shooter. This was a serious probllem with original Shharps rifles and I have had original guns lock up with the extra pressure of fffg powder used in place of ffg.

The cure for the firing pin is either a one piece from Buffalo Arms or drill weld and pin the two piece into a one piece. The dovetail gas plate can then be installed after you trim the back of the firing pin. I much prefer a diovetail plate over the little round disk on some replicas but I won't shooot smokless without a gas plate as i have had an eyeful once and don't hhanker for more.

[montana_charlie]

The second photo shows a two piece firing pin from a replica, this is not good as it takes a much stronger hammer fall to set off the gun. This is also a source of inconsistant ignition and will tend to spread groups.

The cure for the firing pin is either a one piece from Buffalo Arms or drill weld and pin the two piece into a one piece.
I don't know which makers might still be using the one-piece firing pins, but I think that none are. The replicas currently made by Pedersoli and Shiloh both use the two-piece configuration, and neither of those seem to suffer from accuracy problems traceable to poor ignition. If C. Sharps uses the block style, I would be surprised.

The one-piece pins sold by BACO are specifically described as replacements for original rifles. They say that one might fit a reproduction, but there is no guarantee.

The original one-piece units were subject to breakage. Because the shape of the break was uncontrolled, the rifle would THEN suffer from erratic ignition...until a gunsmith fitted a new one into that breechblock.

In the modern design, the firing pin is already 'broken', but broken in an engineered manner. The likelihood of further 'damage' is fairly remote.
The current configuration could be more accurately described as a firing pin and a transfer bar.

CM

[KCSO]

Charlie
I don't have any more pictures handy, but EMF has a semi one piece pin that is pressed/rivited together and 2 out of the 5 I've had in were either too short or loose. My first Pedersoli was a one piece but wan't bushed. As to the force necessary too fire the primer this came from my own expirence working with weak or polishing down tto strong main springs. IMHO you shouldn't need a spring from a mack truck to make a gun fire reliably. I only have expirence with shooting 5 original Sharps guns, or rather 4 Sharps and a Meecham. All of them had much less stiff of a hammer Spring than most of the replicas, and all were 100% reliable so I use that to judge a replica. My sad expirence with rebounding hammers has made me shy on weak primer hits. If Shilo is using a two piece firing pin I assume they have a reason but I doubt breakage is the problem. I have replaced very few firing pins in any of the old guns, Sharps, Trapdoor, SSA, S and W ect. The pins I have replaced in replica Sahrps guns all have the tips mangled from dragging them across the spent primer. If you feel comfortable with a two piece pin I have no problem with that, I work mine into a one piece. If I ever break one I may change my mind.

[montana_charlie]

The pins I have replaced in replica Sahrps guns all have the tips mangled from dragging them across the spent primer.
I don't want to seem argumentative...so take this as just my own view.

I have frequently heard others talk about that condition where a firing pin tip gets damaged by catching in the primer dimple, and then being dragged across the back of the case head, as the block is lowered. The solution is always said to be, "Pull the hammer to half cock before dropping the lever."

Here is my observation, based solely on my Pedersoli rifle...which I assume to be typical of all high-quality replicas.

The throw of the hammer is such that, when lowered, it contacts the firing pin block just firmly enough to push it into contact with the breechblock.
As I drop the lever, the firing pin block immediately breaks contact with the hammer nose, and is free to travel rearward under pressure from the firing pin spring.
This is allowed to happen because the hammer rests on solid steel, and does not follow the downward moving firing pin block.

Since pressure on the firing pin is removed as soon as the breechblock starts to fall, I don't see how the firing pin tip can be damaged. It is moving off of the primer as soon as the action is unlocked.

On a rifle where the hammer is not stopped at the proper point, or (more likely) the hammer nose is too long, I can see how the hammer could continue to keep pressure on the pin as it tries to move down.
I doubt that any of the well-made replicas suffer from this oversight today, but it may be fairly common on lower-quality replicas and (perhaps) on original guns.

I do know that I can't detect any sensation of the pin hanging up in the primer dimple when I open mine with the hammer down...which is my normal practice...and there are certainly no 'rub marks' on my fired cases.

CM

[13Echo]

I have to go with Montana Charlie on the firing pin question. A proper two piece design is superior to the original one piece. As to the pin dragging it just doesn't seem to happen with the Pedersoli J D Steele recently expounded on the Pedersoli hammer and firing pin on the ASSRA web and his findings echo MCs.

I still pull back to half cock because I have to on the Trapdoors and it gets to be habit. It isn't a bad habit to have as you won't end up with the firing pin resting directly on a hot primer when you close the breech with the hammer down



Again, it's just my opinion and your experience may be different.

Jerry Liles

[montana_charlie]

So, I'm hoping that once the Pedersolli "Hi-Walls" are available here, I'll grab one and recut the chamber to 45-120.
45/120 in a nine and a half-pound rifle...
You're a better man than I am, Red River Rick.
CM