Reloading .38 Special, using .360" R-P HBWC

[NuJudge]

I have lots of experience with .38 Special revolvers, with SWC bullets only.

I want to reload .38 Special for use in a S&W M14 for use in Bullseye matches. I am told .360" Remington Hollow Based Wad Cutter bullets are most likely to be the most accurate, but it would be best to size the outside of the case less such that bullets, on seating, do not get squashed down to .358". A method of doing this is to use a slightly larger ID size die, such as for the .38 S&W, or the .38 Super. Doing a search, most die manufacturers just sell a .38 Super size die for use with .38 S&W brass. Others may just sell a .38 Special size die and a bigger expander.

The .38 Special size die should produce a case ID significantly smaller than the .38 Super, and the .38 S&W is just a couple thou larger than that.

The direction I am headed in, is to first try a cheap .38 Super size die, and if that does not work try an expensive .38 S&W size die. I am looking for other people's experience, especially in .38 target revolvers.

[Snow ninja]

Usually, I've found the most accurate load is sized to the cylinder throats in the gun. That's usually where I start, YMMV. What are you going to seat and crimp with?

[rintinglen]

I loaded many thousands of wad cutter ammo, including 1,000s of HBWC back in my PPC days. I never found it necessary to resort to a 38 Super or 38 S&W expander. I used a Lyman carbide sizer and RCBS expander and seating dies. I don't know who told you otherwise, but in my experience, Remington .38 HBWC bullets come .358 not .360.226300

[9.3X62AL]

My 38 Special/357 Magnum RCBS T/C sizer die (dated 1979) sizes 38 specials to .379". I don't know how much wear the sizer ring gets after 125,000 cycles, but that is conservative estimate of its workload since 1980. .379" IME is PERFECT for 38/357 sizing.

My RCBS Cowboy (steel) 38 S&W sizer die sizes to .386" diameter, which is right on SAAMI spec. I tried running some 357 Mag cases into this die tonight, and the case sidewalls were not measurably worked by the 38 S&W die. (s = 15 cases, 3 makes/5 each WW, RP, SL).

I have about 600 of these R-P HBWCs still on hand. They are a greasy mess to load, but they do shoot well. I sized the 38 Special brass in the above T/C die, expanded them in the Lyman "38" Multi-Charge die, and seated them mouth-flush in W-W unplated cases atop 3.0 grains of WW-231 and CCI 500 primers. I shot these from a Colt OMT x 6" and S&W Model 10 x 5", and I was very happy with the accuracy.

My Lyman expander diameter is .356" with a .361" M-die step. I set the flare to not "grab" the bullet edge, but these weak hollow base sidewalls tweak and distort if you look at them intently. The idea behaind the HBWC is that the pressure impulse flares the skirt out to engage throats and later grooves as closely as possible, and this seems to be what happens with the Speer--the Hornady (now out-of-print)--and the Remington HBWCs. The Rem HBWCs did not create leading in either revolver (n = 100 each), but the lube and powder residue was memorable. You WILL get this sticky lube inside your seater die as well--be ready to take "Hoppe's to the rescue" about every 50-60 rounds to the seater die interior, bullet guide sleeve, and seating stem.

That has been my experience, anyway. The 38 Special shooting was done some months back, before the Sonora Desert went into inferno mode.

ETA--My current 38/357 seater die's bullet sleeve will run a bullet sized @ .359", but will choke on a .360" casting. These Rem HBWCs did not hang up, but they really left lube behind. The 38 S&W seater die accepts bullets to .363", but chokes on .365" Makarov bullets. Brainstorming here, maybe a Cowboy Die Set in 38 S&W could be an outside-the-box answer. Untouched case sidewalls, good bullet clearance during seating (and maybe less mess), and all of that bearing surface on the HBWC bullet sidewall might seat and stay OK in the unsized cases with a light crimp. The 38 S&W seater die with roll crimp groove can be adjusted to handle 38/357 loading, though the reverse is not true. Roll it around some, and see what you think.

[Petrol & Powder]

I had a Lathesmith make a couple of custom Dillon type powder funnels (powder through expanders) for my Dillon 550 38 Special powder dies. They are modeled on the Lyman "M" die expander with a "step" to flare the case mouth and are overall a bit larger than the standard Dillon expander. I can't recall the dimensions off the top of my head. I'll look it up in a minute.

Edit: The expander is .357" in diameter with a .360" "step" to make the "M" die style flare.

I can't say enough good things about these custom powder funnels, they are outstanding in every area. They expand the casing slightly more than most expanders so that the casings doesn't swage the bullet down but they still provide adequate neck tension. The Lyman "M" type step is key to holding lead bullets square in the casings prior to seating. And they expand the casing to a depth adequate for a deep seated bullet.

That takes care of the expander duties, then we get into the casing itself. Wadcutter brass has casing walls that are parallel and thinner for a greater distance from the case mouth than standard 38 Special brass. This feature helps to prevent casing from swaging the base of the wadcuuter bullet that is seated deeper into the casing.

I shot a ton or two of hollowbased wadcutters before I started casting bullets and a large number of those were Speer and Hornady HBWC's. Some of those were seated in wadcutter brass and some were seated in standard casings. The hollow base bullet is a little more tolerant of being swaged down because the skirt will expand back under pressure and seal with the bore when the bullet exits the casing. However, ideally you should use WC brass with wadcutters.

[Guesser]

I have a question for the OP. Leadup first. I shoot a lot of those Remington 148 HBWC in my Colt Officers Models, Match, Special and Target. I load in R-P cases. I have on hand 2 cases of the Remington bullets and both cases are .358 Diameter. My question: Where do you get the Remington 148 HBWC in .360 Diameter?
At any rate, if they are sized down seating in the case they will fill the bore because they are so soft you can crush the HB with your fingers. But .360 has me puzzled.

[Char-Gar]

There is a sticky in this forum entitled "75,000 Wadcutters in a Model 27". I would suggest you read it. It covers this topic in depth.

[Outpost75]

Unless your revolver chambers are sloppy, you shouldn't need to size fired brass at all to load the Remington .360" HBWC bullets.

I use an OLD style RCBS expander die with decapping pin holder to decap and lightly flare cases only. New factory once-fired brass is inside deburred to remove the wire edge from the pinch-trim the first time it is reloaded. I then tumble clean the brass and also clean the primer pockets and clear flash holes of any tumbling media.

Federal 100 primers are seated by hand in a clean primer pocket. I then charge with 3 grains of Alliant Bullseye, insert the bullet, which should be held in the case mouth by friction and NOT drop down upon the powder, then I flush seat, profile size and lightly crimp the bullet using the Lee Factory Crimp die.

If you revolver chambers are sloppy, such that a .360" bullet falls into a fired, flared case and is not held in correct position for crimping, then you WILL need to size cases. Common modern .38 Special carbide dies size the cases too much because they are dimensioned to produce a tight fit with .356-.357" jacketed bullets. Seating soft-swaged HBWC bullets in excessively sized cases with too-small an expander plug, typically .356" in modern dies, WILL RUIN THE BULLETS AND DESTROY ACCURACY!

An RCBS Cowboy die set is better. You can also use a .38 S&W sizer die and expander. The key to avoid bullet skirt damage is to use an expander plug which is only 0.001" smaller than the bullet, just enough tension to hold the bullet in position for seating and crimping. The Lee Factory Crimp Die or Redding Profile Die full-length size the loaded rounds to SAAMI dimensions and accomplish any bullet sizing which is needed due to brass variation, by slightly compressing the bullet inside the case. This IS how the factories do it. The purpose of the mid-body knurl on wadcutter brass is to position the bullet for correct seating and crimping.

Ammo so-loaded is capable of sub-two-inch, 12-shot groups at 50 yards from a good target revolver, and 1-1/2" from a good match target auto pistol such as the S&W 52, Hammerli 240 or a classic Giles or Chow .38 National Match wadcutter gun.

[Outpost75]

I have a question for the OP.... I shoot a lot of those Remington 148 HBWC in my Colt Officers Models, Match, Special and Target...I have on hand 2 cases of the Remington bullets and both cases are .358 Diameter. My question: Where do you get the Remington 148 HBWC in .360 Diameter?....360 has me puzzled.

The bulk crate of 2000 bullets says .358" and that is the diameter of the unlubed bullet if you were to wash the black goop off with mineral spirits and measure the naked, unlubed bullet. But measuring mine over the black goop on them they are .360+

People complain about the black lube, but I've shot these by the tens of thousands over the years and they shoot well and don't lead.

I've never seen pretty candy coated bullets that are this accurate.

[Guesser]

outpost75........I agree about the Remington HBWC. I also have used them for a long time and they are perfect for what I want. Fingers get a little dirty and they are smokey but it washes off easily. I never miked one, never felt the need but that explains the excess .002.
Thanks

[9.3X62AL]

I also have never mic'ed these Remington HBWCs. They DEFINITELY can shoot, don't lead-plate the bore, and the mess they make cleans up fine with Hoppe's solvent. I only mentioned the mess because some of the younger folks getting into the hobby are very annoyed by some of the "dirty" deposits left by some powders with jacketed bullets. That sort of thing is relative--I tell such complainants to try shooting cast bullets using Goex standard-grade black powder (AKA "Flaming Dirt") in BPC or M/L applications, and then we will discuss "dirty shooting".

[dubber123]

I experimented with above .358" sizing in several S&W .38's, and found accuracy usually suffered if sized over throat diameter, and that runs right about .358" on every one I have checked.

If ultimate accuracy is the goal, especially if ranges extend to 50 yards and beyond, I will suggest better options than any wadcutter exist.

[El Bibliotecario]

During the heyday of bullseye shooting I never heard of any of the national level shooters doing this--and if they had thought it would garner them a point or two on their score, they would have tried it.

[Char-Gar]

I experimented with above .358" sizing in several S&W .38's, and found accuracy usually suffered if sized over throat diameter, and that runs right about .358" on every one I have checked.

If ultimate accuracy is the goal, especially if ranges extend to 50 yards and beyond, I will suggest better options than any wadcutter exist.

That would be true of target loads that run 650 +- fps. Kick the velocity up to standard velocity 850 fps, it would not be true. I shoot some solid base WCs at 1,100 fps (357 Mag) and they will reach way out there and maintain accuracy all the way.

[Outpost75]

And if you shoot factory wadcutter ammo in a rifle with barrel length around 24 inches, velocity will be about 900 fps and they will maintain accuracy to 100 yards in a 1:20" twist barrel.

[dubber123]

That would be true of target loads that run 650 +- fps. Kick the velocity up to standard velocity 850 fps, it would not be true. I shoot some solid base WCs at 1,100 fps (357 Mag) and they will reach way out there and maintain accuracy all the way.

My standard wadcutter load runs around 900 fps, and they still aren't all that hard to best at the 50 yard line.

[Jtarm]

I’ve never checked a Model 14 but all my S&W .38/.357s have had tight throats. I open them up to .358.

My experiences match dubber: over throat diameter doesn’t shoot real well. Boolits that just slip through shoot the best.

Doubly true for a soft HBWC, IMO. The base is going to obturate and seal at low pressure. There’s no reason for it to be oversized.