School me on the .38-45 Clerk

[Patrick L]

This weekend a friend whose dad was a longtime Bullseye shooter offered up some of the old gentleman's shooting items that he had no interest in. In addition to a few boxes of shotgun shells and some cast H&G 185 .45 boolits, I also got a 1911 barrel and bushing plus two magazines marked ".38-45".

Here's what I do know. Back in the sixties or so a guy named Clerk devised a wildcat called the .38-45 that was simply a .45 ACP necked down to .38 caliber. The idea was to have an easy to shoot, light recoiling .38 for the centerfire stage of NRA Bullseye. Supposedly it only required a .38 Super barrel that was rechambered to the wildcat round (and that appears to be what I have,) a bushing, and a light spring. It was supposedly ultra reliable due to the bottle neck case shape. Apparently the same was not always true of the .38 Special conversions of the Govt. Model, which led to the great S&W Model 52. I don't know from personal experience, it's just what I've read.

According to Cartridges of the World, a 148 wadcutter over 3.5 of Bullseye was a fairly sedate target load. They also list a zippier jacketed load with Unique, but that's not what I'm interested in.

So now is where I need help. How do I proceed? I certainly need loading dies, but how about the cases? Is it as simple as running a .45 into the loading die, or are there other steps to forming the cases? Are there forming dies needed? I have no experience at all with wildcat rounds.

I was hoping someone here might have some actual experience with this round. I would love to tinker around with this little bit of "Bullseye from the Golden Era" memorabilia.

Can anyone help?

[Green Frog]

Dies are still available if you search diligently... maybe from CH/4D??

While I’ve never owned or shot one an old friend of mine, now deceased, set a National Record for Timed Fire with the 38-45. He was a member of the late ‘50s Navy team and was at Camp Perry at the time. As has been stated, the round was initially developed as a competitive target round for the CF leg of Bullseye matches. It fed and functioned much better in the Gov’t Model platform than the 38 Spl, and of course the military teams had lots of Gov’t frames back then.

Later, some shooters figured out they could hot rod the round with a higher velocity loading to use for hunting or??? Through the ‘60s they popped up in shooting mags from time to time.

Froggie

[bob208]

it has been along time but a friend had one. we shot it a lot with the hotter loads and heavy bullets. cases are formed from .45 acp. it takes a knack to form them expect to lose more then a few cases. that was the biggest draw back case loss.

[DuaneH]

Ask your friend if he can find the forming and loading dies. I currently load for and shoot one of these, and case forming is a hassle. You cannot simply run a .45 case into the sizing die. There is a 4-die forming set, and the last reduction is done in the sizing die, for a total of 5 steps to fully form the case. Use new brass, and run it over an expander to ensure the mouth is round before you start.

Once you have brass, it is a fun cartridge to shoot. You can use any .38 bullet, not limited to wadcutters. I have had good results with 358432 and 358311. You can use any published .38 spl reloading data, since the case was designed to have exactly the same powder capacity.

[ss30378]

I built a 38/45 Improved in a glock. Essentially a 38 casull and I usually load it to casull pressures. Its the standard 38/45 with the shoulder shifted .030 forward but I still just use the standard 38/45 dies and 45 acp small primer brass. Making brass is easy once you find the dies. A few places can make you a custom set but they are pricey. I found my set off ebay. The case forming dies is ridiculously priced, a 400 corbon sizer works perfect and is much cheaper. It is a fun round and has very little recoil, loading to 38 casull pressures I've pushed a 125gr bullet to over 1950fps in a 6" tube. But loaded down its a fun and accurate round.

[Patrick L]

So what do you do to form a case, run a .45 ACP case into a .400 Cor Bon sizer die, then into the .38-45 sizer?

[RU shooter]

I built a 38/45 Improved in a glock. Essentially a 38 casull and I usually load it to casull pressures. Its the standard 38/45 with the shoulder shifted .030 forward . It is a fun round and has very little recoil, loading to 38 casull pressures I've pushed a 125gr bullet to over 1950fps in a 6" tube. But loaded down its a fun and accurate round.
Now that's impressive ....... sorta like a chubby magnumized .357 sig! What's it capable of with 158 gr bullets ? 1500 fps or a little better ?

[475AR]

I built a 38/45 Improved in a glock. Essentially a 38 casull and I usually load it to casull pressures. Its the standard 38/45 with the shoulder shifted .030 forward but I still just use the standard 38/45 dies and 45 acp small primer brass. Making brass is easy once you find the dies. A few places can make you a custom set but they are pricey. I found my set off ebay. The case forming dies is ridiculously priced, a 400 corbon sizer works perfect and is much cheaper. It is a fun round and has very little recoil, loading to 38 casull pressures I've pushed a 125gr bullet to over 1950fps in a 6" tube. But loaded down its a fun and accurate round.

I bet that it would be a screamer out of a 10.5" DI AR15:bigsmyl2:

[bruce drake]

Let me know whenever you tire of the experiment with this cartridge as I've been looking for a 38-45 Clerke 1911 barrel for a long time also. CH-4D does have dies if you can't find any local.

[gwpercle]

Forming cases in the resizing die is an exercise in frustration....way more failure than sucess.
Going from .45 all the way down to .38 in one pass is a tough row to hoe .
CH4D case forming dies are worth every penny if you are serious about reloading in any amount .

[Patrick L]

Update, my friend found the dies, or at least parts of them!

I appear to have a resize/decap die and a seating die, as well as four forming dies labeled #1 thru #4. Only 1 die has a lock ring, but its common to cannibalize dies you no longer use, I know I do. No matter, I have a drawer full of them.

this is going to be a winter project. I'll keep you posted, as I'm sure I'll have questions.

[Chuck Perry]

Sounds like fun. I wonder if it headspaces on the shoulder or casemouth?

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[Green Frog]

Sounds like fun. I wonder if it headspaces on the shoulder or casemouth?

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My friend Steve is unfortunately no longer around to ask, but I think it would have been on the shoulder. Then again, it's been a while since we were able to discuss it. :(

Froggie

[Patrick L]

Well, I took advantage of my day off and formed some cases. Its actually quite easy. The C&H forming dies are just numbered 1 - 4. 1 puts a slight bottleneck on the case. 2 puts a round radius on the bottleneck. 3 further necks things down, and puts a shoulder on the round. 4 finishes the shoulder and neck. Actually, then I think the FL sizer from the reloading dies really finishes the case, as it seems to size the case quite a bit.

I did loose about 7 cases to splits, but I used some really old brass to try the process, so I'm not surprised. If it looks like something that is going to work out, I'll make 100 or so with some nice new cases. Surprisingly, when a case splits, it splits with die number 1, which actually does the least amount or working/reducing. The splits do get worse with the other dies, but the other dies don't seem to cause them if they're not already there.

There must be a die missing from the reloading die set, since the loading dies consist only of a FL size/decap die and a seat/crimp die. There is no expanding die. Fortunately I had an old set of 38/357 dies, so I just stole the expander die from that set.

[Tatume]

This sounds like a really fun project. Please keep us updated.