why don't gun makers build a revolver in .40 s&w ?

[mozeppa]

and yes... i know some do, but...when they do it's always a .40 s&w / 10mm .

and you always have to use the stupid "moon clips" or half moon clips.

ruger provides EXTRA cylinders for their .45 colt / .45acp and for their .38/357 / 9mm single actions.
and a few others!

why not the .40?

[pworley1]

I would be interested in one.

[DeputyDuke]

I'd like a extra cylinder for 40 S&W for my Uberti SAA clone in 38-40. 40 S&W brass is as common as dirt at law enforcement ranges and has little value. I could use the same bullets, (.402" Magma 180 gr. rnfp), with smaller powder charges for some really cheap plinking.

[475AR]

and yes... i know some do, but...when they do it's always a .40 s&w / 10mm .

and you always have to use the stupid "moon clips" or half moon clips.

ruger provides EXTRA cylinders for their .45 colt / .45acp and for their .38/357 / 9mm single actions.
and a few others!

why not the .40?
The only manufacturer I know of that builds a 40 S&W revolver that doesn't require moon clips is Charter Arms in their pitbull.
https://charterfirearms.com/collections/pitbull/products/74020-40-pitbull-matte-standard

[Preacher Jim]

ruger did a special run of single actions for California hiway patrol. shot one last month.

[Lloyd Smale]

smith did the 225959646. A k frame with a alloy cylinder. I had one. Should have held on to it. It shot real well.

[contender1]

Well, let's see.
Ruger did build some Vaqueros in 40 S&W.
Buckeye Sports had a special run of convertibles years ago,, in 38-40 & 10mm.
And, as noted,, some guns have been made in DA to accept 40 S&W or 10mm.
And, of course,, as mentioned,, so does Charter Arms.

But you asked the "Why?" question.

The answer is simple.
They are all in business to make money. They can not make money if a product doesn't sell. And to make the profit margin they need to sell a LOT of guns. As such,,, they look at the potential market & see if it will support a certain type of firearm.
The Vaquero in 40 S&W I own,, sat in a gun shop for over 3 months,, until the dealer discounted it to me.
The S&W model 646 in 40 S&W,, (and yes,, it uses moon clips,) was in an auction, I wanted it,, but got outbid. The buyer THOUGHT he could sell it & make money. A few months later,, I was able to buy it at a LOSS to him,, as nobody wanted his high asking price.
And now,, we have the current Ruger GP-100 in 10mm,, that can also shoot 40 S&W.


But yes,, moon clips are required as the caliber headspaces off the case mouth,, not the rim.

But the simple answer is SLOW SALES,,, as evidenced by past endeavors.

To many manufacturers,, you need to sell several thousand of a certain model to just break even on costs,, depending upon the amount of expense in development. Granted,, development costs have been lowered in this day & age of computers & many well established manufacturing processes,,, but there is still a cost factor.

While Ruger enjoys decent sales of their convertible SA revolvers,, using the two cylinder sale method,, MANY, MANY spare cylinders are never shot. Look at all of the NIB .22 mag cylinders you can see for sale all the time on sleezbay or other gun sites. It has been going on since the introduction of that model. And it's likely the most popular convertible sold by Ruger.
The others,, 9mm & 357,, as well as 45 acp & 45 Colt,,, enjoy popularity because ammo is often CHEAPER,, making it attractive for one or the other to more people.
But look at the 9mm DA revolvers,,, yes,, many have been offered,, but SLOW SALES have driven them into a niche market. And the 9mm DA's were developed as a LEO backup concept gun.

The 40 S&W is a decent caliber & many have used it for competition, as well as a self defense caliber of choice.
But,, todays SELLING market is in semi-autos,, so that's what they are made in.

Now,, you mention moon clips. I too USED to consider clips as a PIA & outdated etc.
I even bought a Ruger Speed-Six in 9mm that used 1/2 moons,, MOSTLY as a collectable & curio piece. I once won a bet with a guy who challenged me saying nobody made any 9mm revolvers. I have shot it,,, & yet,, it's mostly sits in the safe.
And I saw folks at USPSA matches,, shooting a 45 acp S&W revolver in competition,,, (think of Jerry Miculek, & others,) and kinda wondered why. Yet,,, I like revolver shooting,, and when the S&W 646 came along at a fair price,,, I bought it. Since then,, I've added a S&W in 45 acp,, and the Ruger GP-100 in 10mm.
Moons are NOT the problem I THOUGHT they'd be. In fact,,, quite the opposite. I shoot competition, (USPSA) and I get all my brass back, easy to pick up,, as compared to the auto shuckers, and reloading is a lot quicker & smoother than I expected. I actually have found that moon clips make a very convenient way to carry spare ammo. Moon clips are much cheaper than magazines for the bottom feeders. I buy an 8 pk of moons for about $10 (or less, depending upon which gun,) and that's carrying 48 rounds of ammo. If you do the math,, a 15 round magazine requires 3 of them to feed a similar amount of ammo. Three magazines at $20-$35 each average,,, is much more expensive. Even if you add in the moon loading tool,,, which is about $40 in the Dillon catalog,, is still comes out much cheaper,, especially if you have more than 8 clips.
And some folks cuss moons saying they get bent. Well, as a competitor,, I can say I've had moons stepped on & bent. Yet,, I have taken mine home,, used a flat anvil, a ball peen hammer, and flattened them out,, to where they work fine AND go back into use in competition.

So,, instead of wondering why a manufacturer doesn't make your pet idea of a firearm,, (and not just a DA in 40 S&W w/o moons, ) look at the big picture. Money is required for them to stay in business,, and I for one appreciate that they are still in business, and making stuff we can enjoy. And if they offer something close to what you want,, then,, you can either adapt to what's offered,, or spend the money to have a custom gun done.
And yes,, some custom gunsmiths have & will build a special cylinder for a DA revolver in your desired caliber. Such as a dedicated 40 S&W cylinder, w/o the need for moon clips,,, for a gun such as the GP-100. it's just you that has to incur the expense of having what you desire.

I for one like to shoot more & spend less on my guns,, (unless I see the necessities,) so I use moon clips & shoot the heck out of my DA revolvers in 40 S&W.

[reddog81]

Making a dedicated 40 S&W revolver is kind of silly if the gun can handle the pressure of 10MM. Like contender1 mentioned, I don't mind moonclips at all. I can load up the moonclips as quickly as I can load a magazine, it's much easier to clean up the brass at the range, I routinely bring 20 loaded moonclips to the range for my S&W 929. That's 160 rounds without fiddling around with loading a magazine.

[Ed_Shot]

My Blackhawk 10MM/40 SW 6.5" is FANTASTIC. I use the Lyman 401043 and 401654 at the Lyman 4th Ed CB HB spec'd COAL's (won't stand much more length) however the rounds feed perfectly in a Delta Elite and G22. Bollits sized .401 push thru the throats of both cylinders with "feather-light" pressure. Accuracy is outstanding with both 10mm and 40 SW. I was so pleased with my Blackhawk 45 LC/45 ACP the 10/40 was a no brainer for me.

[Ickisrulz]

Ruger Blackhawk convertibles in 10mm and 40S&W are still being made.

[Walkingwolf]

Personally I like the moon clips, or half moon clips.

[JoeJames]

Ruger GP100 Match 10 mm will also handle the .40 if you use full moon clips: Per American Rifleman: The cartridge case of the .40 S&W semi-auto pistol round shares the same external dimensions as the 10 mm with the exception of being 0.142" shorter. This means the revolver can be safely fired with the softer shooting .40 S&W but two things should be kept in mind. First, .40 S&W cartridges must be supported by full-moon clips. Otherwise they will slip down into the chambers and not fire. Secondly, it's important to thoroughly scrub out each of the cylinder's chambers after shooting .40 S&W before switching back to 10 mm to avoid the longer cartridge cases sticking in the chambers.

[bob208]

no market . why do think .41 mag. is almost dead? no one is buying them in volume . the only wheel guns are the old standard or the uber magnums. I joined the nra amdm got the shooting mag, so far 7 issues and all had buck Rodgers knock offs on the cover and most of the inside.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Post #7, by contender1, very comprehensive, well written and thought out. Thanks for posting.

My thoughts: Half moon and full moon clips are a real asset for all of the reasons contender1 mentioned. I have an S&W Mountain Gun in .45 ACP that really shines. Uses the clips, fast to reload, can carry plenty of ammo that isn't loose in the pocket.

The logic behind the original question kind of escapes me. Why would someone turn their back on a revolver that offers the additional ability to shoot 10mm ? You never have to use 10mm, but the option of loading a more powerful cartridge should the necessity or desire come about is a pretty attractive feature. My choice would be one that could use both cartridges over any that used only one.

[Outpost75]

John Taylor rebarrelled and rechambered a couple Ruger Blackhawk .357s to .40 cal. for me and a hunting buddy.

225991

The .40 S&W in a 5" revolver has a useful velocity increase over an autopistol of the same barrel length because the length of the cylinder improves the expansion ratio and you gain more for the additional bullet travel than you lose through the cylinder gap.

My buddy Mike and I sent off .357/9mm convertibles for rebarreling and recylindering because we wanted a packing pistol of caliber which started with a "4" and the .40 S&W cylinder was simply to have a cylinder to exploit common and cheap ammo and free range brass available in that caliber. The 9mm cylinder is roughed with a .401" chucking reamer from McMaster-Carr and finish chambered with an ordinary .40 S&W reamer.

We rechambered our .357 cylinders to 10x25mm Rimmed, which is a wildcat based on necking down Starline .44 Russian cases, giving us a traditional-looking rimmed case having capacity slightly greater than the 10mm Auto, but suited for loading blunt, heavy bullets for revolver use.
Anybody wanting full skinny on that round PM me, I'm happy to share. If you ask "why" the answer is because we wanted to shoot either black powder or smokeless and it seemed a good idea at the time. We are very happy with the result and John is now building a rook rifle to shoot the 10x25R cartridge.

226035

[Texas by God]

Taurus made/makes a .40S&W snubnose. If it was a 4" I'd try one.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[RPRNY]

They do.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2011/9/15/charter-arms-40-sw-pitbull-revolver/

[Jtarm]

smith did the 225959646. A k frame with a alloy cylinder. I had one. Should have held on to it. It shot real well.

Actually, that’s an L-frame and Ti cylinder. I’d love to get my hands on one but prices start at $1,600 and go north.

It would make an awesome IDPA gun.

Ruger is building a GP100 10mm that’ll take .40.

[contender1]

The OP was discussing the lack of options in a DA revolver from what I saw. And,, my response was mostly about that. Yes,,, Ruger has offered some convertible cylinder guns,, but to do so in DA revolvers isn't cost feasible to manufacturers.

Jtarm,,, I also own a S&W 646 like the one pictured. I use mine in USPSA competition,, even though it's a 6 shot & most revolver shooters are now using the 8 shot S&W's. (Psst,,, I got mine for $750,, which was less than the original bidder gave for it at auction!) :D

[Bigslug]

I think with all the law enforcement agencies that are fleeing from the .40S&W like it's a piece of stinky cheese, we're not likely to see a great deal more branching out for the round.

Then again, if you stuck a rim on the .40S&W and built a dedicated length cylinder and frame for it, I would then regard the round as perhaps having found it's potential.

[am44mag]

I think with all the law enforcement agencies that are fleeing from the .40S&W like it's a piece of stinky cheese, we're not likely to see a great deal more branching out for the round.

Then again, if you stuck a rim on the .40S&W and built a dedicated length cylinder and frame for it, I would then regard the round as perhaps having found it's potential.

I believe the 41 mag and special already fill that niche with a slightly longer cylinder.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[Lloyd Smale]

yup there was a big after market converting 646's to 10mm. Smith should have done it in the first place. If the L frame can handle 44 mags it sure can handle 10mms.
Making a dedicated 40 S&W revolver is kind of silly if the gun can handle the pressure of 10MM. Like contender1 mentioned, I don't mind moonclips at all. I can load up the moonclips as quickly as I can load a magazine, it's much easier to clean up the brass at the range, I routinely bring 20 loaded moonclips to the range for my S&W 929. That's 160 rounds without fiddling around with loading a magazine.

[mozeppa]

i really wasn't talking about DA when i started this post.

just the ruger six guns.

they DO make extra cylinders for the 45LC / 45acp and as well the 38/357/9mm blackhawks .

i did not say "tool up and make me a whole new gun model."

i'm saying "if you can make a 10mm ...and you DO make a 10mm ....then hang the moon clips and offer me a
.40S&W cylinder for it as well " ...at least make it an option!

i mean really? ...the maker doesn't have change but one thing!

to make a .40 S&W all the maker has to do is re-set the depth of cut shorter on the drilling machine that he already has!

no new tools
no new frame design
no new steps what so ever!

i have arthritis....moon clips be hanged!

[Outpost75]

I think with all the law enforcement agencies that are fleeing from the .40S&W like it's a piece of stinky cheese, we're not likely to see a great deal more branching out for the round. Then again, if you stuck a rim on the .40S&W and built a dedicated length cylinder and frame for it, I would then regard the round as perhaps having found it's potential.

Very astute observation. Our experience has been that as law enforcement agencies start drifting back to 9mm, used .40 S&W pistols are plentiful and cheap. There are bargains out there. Locally we have an unlimited supply of free range pickup brass, and bargains on bulk ammo as well.

Accurate has several .40 / 10mm molds which are optimised for revolver use. We are using 40-182H, 40-220H and 40-224H with 5 grains of Bullseye across the board with all three bullets in the Ruger.

226036226037226038

[Walkingwolf]

i really wasn't talking about DA when i started this post.

just the ruger six guns.

they DO make extra cylinders for the 45LC / 45acp and as well the 38/357/9mm blackhawks .

i did not say "tool up and make me a whole new gun model."

i'm saying "if you can make a 10mm ...and you DO make a 10mm ....then hang the moon clips and offer me a
.40S&W cylinder for it as well " ...at least make it an option!

i mean really? ...the maker doesn't have change but one thing!

to make a .40 S&W all the maker has to do is re-set the depth of cut shorter on the drilling machine that he already has!

no new tools
no new frame design
no new steps what so ever!

i have arthritis....moon clips be hanged!

I have never seen a Ruger Blackhawk that uses moon clips...

Personally I like my SA revolvers in three calibers, .38, .44, and .22 mostly because that is what I have and they put a smile on my face. I adapt the ammo to the gun, not the gun to the ammo, makes life easier. If I came across a 10mm Blackhawk for me the solution is simple, buy 10mm cases, and reload. I already have guns that shoot .40 a Glock 22, and Charter Arms Pitbull. As far as moon clips see above~~~though I do use loading tools that make it simple for 45 moon clips. I highly doubt Ruger is going to make a .40 Blackhawk, the numbers are just not there to justify it.

[Jtarm]

I’m sure Clements could build you a 10mm/.40 BH, for some $$$$.
He might be looking for a new market, since Ruger has appropriated his 10mm GP100.

I imagine a BH would be easier to build a custom barrel for.

The 10mm is experiencing a resurgence that the .40 piggybacks on to some extent.

The problem you face with revolvers, especially larger-frame guns, is no one will want to make a dedicated .40 when you can shoot .40s in a 10mm cylinder. Same as the BH .357. Why make one in .38 special, when you can shoot them in the .357 chambers, and most people want the more powerful chambering anyway, even if they never use it.

[mozeppa]

my bad for not being clear ...the most often way you will find a .40 cal. gun is in the revolvers that are NOT ruger black hawks.... but when you do find a revolver that does shoot .40 they must take moon clips.

i have scoured the net and found that indeed ruger did make a sixgun called a lipsey that indeed has a 10mm cylinder AND a .40 S&W cylinder !

so now the quarry is afoot! ... me wants one!

[Shingle]

I would to have a 9mm revolver with a 3 or 4" barrel that didnt use moon clips or cost a 1,000 dollars.

[gon2shoot]

I have a S&W 646, I hate the moon clips. Traded for the gun several years ago and it took a little doing to find the right load.
The little gun is VERY accurate, points naturally, very comfortable. Probably should be in a safe cause they're kinda pricey but it stays in my pocket when I'm on the tractor or cuttin wood etc.

Did I mention I hate the moon clips?

[22cf45]

I would rather see Smith or Colt make a small frame revolver in 44 spl.
Phil

[Outpost75]

I would rather see Smith or Colt make a small frame revolver in 44 spl.
Phil

It would not be a small frame. K-frame isn't quite big enough either. Tried that back in the '70s chamber walls even in too thin and blew the cylinder. Would have to be a 5-shot L-frame, which is NOT a small gun.

[Ickisrulz]

i have scoured the net and found that indeed ruger did make a sixgun called a lipsey that indeed has a 10mm cylinder AND a .40 S&W cylinder !


Scoured the net!? The Blackhawk convertible in 10mm/40S&W was mentioned a few times in this very thread. BTW gun is not called a "Lipsey", it is a Lipsey Distributor Exclusive. There are many distributor exclusives being made by Ruger. The 10mm/40S&W is just one of them.

They are available from Bud's right now in two barrel lengths:

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/415001973/Ruger+Blackhawk+Conv+10MM%2F40SW+4.62+SS

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/415000810/Ruger+Blackhawk+Conv+6.5+SS+10mm%2F40S%26W+Adj

[mozeppa]

Scoured the net!? The Blackhawk convertible in 10mm/40S&W was mentioned a few times in this very thread. BTW gun is not called a "Lipsey", it is a Lipsey Distributor Exclusive. There are many distributor exclusives being made by Ruger. The 10mm/40S&W is just one of them.

They are available from Bud's right now in two barrel lengths:

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/415001973/Ruger+Blackhawk+Conv+10MM%2F40SW+4.62+SS

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/415000810/Ruger+Blackhawk+Conv+6.5+SS+10mm%2F40S%26W+Adj

okay .................scoured is not the right word ya nit picker!
but i did hunt down the lipsey web site by myself and looked it over

and at 3:00 o'clock indy time i went to the indy 1500 gun and knife show and found a dealer who will get me one.

and since i need a few weeks to pay for it ...this works for me!:-D

[Ed_Shot]

Just looked.....the good folks at Tooele Shooting Supply have the Blackhawk 10MM/40SW; both 6.5" and 4 5/8" models in stock. Where I got mine.

[9.3X62AL]

Bigslug has a point about the law agencies' Forty Fetish of the 1990s--it is fading. The caliber does good work on bad guys, probably every bit as good as the 45 ACP. I have been away from the range staff at work for a long time, I don't know why the LE folks are returning to the 9mm. I surmise that quals scores are not as good with the 40 as with the 9mm, due to recoil management issues, and I imagine that ammo cost is higher for 40 or 45 than it is for 9mm. The real problem with all of this admin poguery surrounding system and caliber choices is that the people with the most influence in the decision-making process are among those least likely to be directly affected by the fallout from those decisions--sheriffs, chiefs, and upper admin types don't get shot at much.

I had about a one-year dalliance with a S&W Model 25-2 in the early 1980s, and I learned to dislike the clips that existed at the time with a depth of passion. It did not take long to acquire some 45 Auto Rim brass to feed the revolver with, and that was a far simpler resolution to cartridge fit. I have or had Ruger Blackhawks that chamber rimless self-loading cartridges successfully--30 Carbine and 45 ACP. These have always fired reliably and shot quite accurately for me. The O/P seems to have found a system to fill his needs via Lipsey/Ruger BHs. Failing that, a Blackhawk convertible in 357/9mm could be gunsmithed with barrel opened to .400" groove diameter, with the cylinders recut for the 40 Short & Weak and the 10mm Auto respectively. It is not a thing I seek out, having two 10mm and three 40 S&W handguns already on hand. But the project is reasonable mechanically, though custom "one-off" work can be expensive. Life is too darn short to not have what you really want from time to time. Best of luck on your search!

ETA--Speer recently rolled out a new 10mm loading featuring a 200 grain Gold Dot bullet prompted along at 1100 FPS. This is 100 FPS faster than Col. Cooper's suggestion (1000 FPS) in the early stages of the caliber's birthing, and 100-125 FPS slower than the Norma loads that tended to harm 1911A1-series pistols. I think this pressure point will be safe for Colts and Glocks, albeit at the upper end of that "safe zone". A Blackhawk in 10mm would laugh at these pressures, as did the S&W 1006 et al. The S&Ws doted upon Norma loads.

[Outpost75]

Firing .40 S&W 180-grain FMJ Winchester White Box from Walmart, my 5" Ruger Blackhawk was zeroed at 25 yards with its rear sight bottomed out. With .40 S&W handloads assembled with the Accurate 40-182H bullet and 5 grains of Bullseye velocity was 1079 fps vs. 1043 fps for the Winchester 180-grain FMJs. Not exactly "short and weak."

[gpidaho]

I have one of the Charter Arms 40S&W five shot revolvers. It doesn't use moon clips and has spring loaded little tabs to extract the empty shells. This makes it somewhat of a PITA to load. As a carry gun, it's a little large to wear comfortably for me I'd rather carry the smaller Rugers Gp

[9.3X62AL]

I was only speaking relative to the 10mm. My shop has used the load you mention for training for many years, and uses the 180 JHP for issue/duty. Both loads clock in the 920-935 FPS range from Glock 23 and SIG P-229, and 950-965 FPS from Glock 22/Sig P-226 barrel lengths. Even these short-barrel performances have shown impressive street results in a pretty large catalog of incident history with the load; 1 to 3 hits transmits the concept succinctly.

[Harter66]

Moon clips from Revolver Supply are as little 60¢ each shipped if you and your buddy split 100 . Split 4 ways you got $20 in 25 6 round clips ...... You can build a demooner tool for about $3.50 out of a junk sale golf club .

The Lipsey's first runs of the RBH were 38-40 , 40 and for an additional charge 10mm if I remember correctly but it may have been any pair of the 3 .

Maybe it's time to find an ugly N frame maybe a Highway Patrolman .

[contender1]

To the OP,, I was mistaken. I ASSUMED he was asking about DA revolvers because of the fact Lipsey's has offered the convertible. And for Ruger to offer a spare cylinder in 40 along with the 10mm,,, it would be an easy thing to do.

[Jtarm]

Maybe it's time to find an ugly N frame maybe a Highway Patrolman .

Unless you know a smith that’ll do it on the cheap, it might be just as economical to look for a 610.

[Jtarm]

Bigslug has a point about the law agencies' Forty Fetish of the 1990s--it is fading. The caliber does good work on bad guys, probably every bit as good as the 45 ACP. I have been away from the range staff at work for a long time, I don't know why the LE folks are returning to the 9mm. I surmise that quals scores are not as good with the 40 as with the 9mm, due to recoil management issues, and I imagine that ammo cost is higher for 40 or 45 than it is for 9mm. The real problem with all of this admin poguery surrounding system and caliber choices is that the people with the most influence in the decision-making process are among those least likely to be directly affected by the fallout from those decisions--sheriffs, chiefs, and upper admin types don't get shot at much.

I had about a one-year dalliance with a S&W Model 25-2 in the early 1980s, and I learned to dislike the clips that existed at the time with a depth of passion. It did not take long to acquire some 45 Auto Rim brass to feed the revolver with, and that was a far simpler resolution to cartridge fit. I have or had Ruger Blackhawks that chamber rimless self-loading cartridges successfully--30 Carbine and 45 ACP. These have always fired reliably and shot quite accurately for me. The O/P seems to have found a system to fill his needs via Lipsey/Ruger BHs. Failing that, a Blackhawk convertible in 357/9mm could be gunsmithed with barrel opened to .400" groove diameter, with the cylinders recut for the 40 Short & Weak and the 10mm Auto respectively. It is not a thing I seek out, having two 10mm and three 40 S&W handguns already on hand. But the project is reasonable mechanically, though custom "one-off" work can be expensive. Life is too darn short to not have what you really want from time to time. Best of luck on your search!

ETA--Speer recently rolled out a new 10mm loading featuring a 200 grain Gold Dot bullet prompted along at 1100 FPS. This is 100 FPS faster than Col. Cooper's suggestion (1000 FPS) in the early stages of the caliber's birthing, and 100-125 FPS slower than the Norma loads that tended to harm 1911A1-series pistols. I think this pressure point will be safe for Colts and Glocks, albeit at the upper end of that "safe zone". A Blackhawk in 10mm would laugh at these pressures, as did the S&W 1006 et al. The S&Ws doted upon Norma loads.

I think you’re right on regarding law enforcements return to the Heinie 9: the 9mm is cheaper in both ammo and training curve.

I keep seeing predictions that the .40 is dead, but it remains very popular in action shooting where major power factor is required. In double-stack guns of similar design, the .40 packs 2-3 more rounds than .45 ACP.

[9.3X62AL]

I remain a believer in the 40 S&W--the 10mm--and the 45 ACP as felon repellent. Loadings and power ratings aren't real critical, but a good controlled-expansion bullet design is preferable. My shop uses the Winchester White Box JHP 180 grain in 40 S&W, and the WWB JHP 230 grain loading in 45 ACP. I mentioned the performance of the 40 S&W loads above--the 45 ACP load load runs 860-875 FPS from my SIG-P-220 (4.4" barrel), and gets 900 FPS in my Gold Cup's 5" barrel. It is SUPERB anti-goblin medicine, in both calibers. Performances of both duplicate the work done by the W-W Ranger SXT JHPs and the SXT's forerunner Black Talon rounds. SXT supposedly deleted the little snaggle-hooks from the Black Talon bullet. Uh-huh.

Selected loads in 9mm are adequate to the task as well, but by no means all 9mm loadings. Those 9mms adhering to CIP/European load standards AND incorporating controlled-expansion bullet designs are fine. This is what I carry in my P-226 when it goes out with me, which is infrequent (Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P). My EDC in town is the Glock 23, out in the boondocks I have the Glock 20SF and usually a rifle of some kind. Pistol calibers used for felon repellent really should start with the numeral "4".

[9.3X62AL]

Unless you know a smith that’ll do it on the cheap, it might be just as economical to look for a 610.

I would be really averse to cutting up a Model 28.

[Bigslug]

I have been away from the range staff at work for a long time, I don't know why the LE folks are returning to the 9mm. . .

1. Significantly cheaper to feed, especially if you run 147 grain for duty but train with 115.

2. The days of getting a high percentage of your trainees who grew up shooting, hunting, or have a lot of military time are fading. The video game generation, who never fired anything at all until the academy, have a significantly easier time of it with 9mm, which leads to less less rounds fired in remedial training, which makes the cheap round cheaper still. Lets you either train cheaper, train more for the same money, or branch out into. . .I dunno. . .rifles.

3. Some of the current heavy 9mm duty loads actually do a better job "across the board" of all six of the FBI's barrier-before-gelatin tests than either the .40 or .45 counterparts, penetrating closer to the deep end of the desired 12 to 18 inches. It lags a little behind only in the glass test (where mass is king), but there is at least one brand for which the 9mm was the only one of the three to make at least 12" depth on all six tests.

4. The .40 is hard on guns.

5. The .45 doesn't give the quantity over quality crowd enough of a security blanket to feel warm and fuzzy under.

With the FBI report finding that diameter is only to be preferred AFTER you manage to shoot straight and penetrate deeply enough - AND the 9mm happens to be easier to shoot well and often penetrates deeper - the agency math isn't hard to figure. It seems to significantly improve the odds for the "weak links" and the general masses, but isn't really handicapping the 5-10% with serious ability.

[9.3X62AL]

OK, Erik. This jibes with stuff I was seeing late in my career, regarding the demographics of the new troops coming on. From a pencil-pusher perspective, the lower ammo costs are always a big plus. The barrier jello/glass/penetration tests.........whatever. No two bullet tracks are ever the same, nor is expansion behavior or terminal trajectory. Mother Nature and human nature conspire to give the lie to many of our most treasured pre-conceived notions and beliefs, and bullets do weird stuff once they hit animated targets. And so do the animated targets. You just pays yer money and takes yer chances, always mindful that the equipment the County bought all came from the low bidder.

[Bigslug]

Al, I don't recall if you were a player on the thread in which we discussed at great length the ins and outs of the .455 and .38/200 Webleys, but someone coined a clever phrase when they postulated that the Brits probably decided that terminally, the .38/200 was "acceptably inferior" to the .455. One straight wound track being pretty much as good as the next - and while neither round generates much recoil, the lighter revolver shooting the smaller one was much easier for the non-enthusiast to deal with. The reality is that non-enthusiasts make up what probably 80+% of those carrying are going to be, and the conventional wisdom seems to be shifting towards the idea that a .70" hole in the right location from a 9mm is going to be superior to a .90" hole from a .45 multiple inches away from the intended point of aim due to ingrained flinch and trigger slap. Having grown up in the '80's reading a lot of 'for enthusiasts, by enthusiasts' publications, I've had to shift a lot of my thinking when it came time to find a practical solution for folks that don't live this stuff.

But this thread's about the .40 S&W and we should probably cease the hijack. It's a bit of an extreme round that I've never been a huge fan of, as it tried to be all things to all people and falls short in spots as most Swiss Army Knives do, though it does appear to work for the most part. With 20/20 hindsight, it seems to have been initially pushed somewhat surreptitiously as a ploy to sell new guns to agencies that had JUST bought 9mm's. . .when the findings were just starting to come out that we didn't need to change guns, we just needed to upgrade the ammo. .40 Swindle & Whitewash is what I tend to call it.

But in revolvers as a sporting round? I kinda like the idea of cast boolits in a stumpy cylinder snubby at lower speeds than the round tends to generate, or in a larger gun as the "Special" to the 10mm's "Magnum". The only fly in the ointment for me is that I personally have an extreme dislike for moon clips. I would like to see the Auto Rim treatment applied to both rounds - and possibly a third, longer round - which would allow those who want to fiddlefart around with mooners to do so. I think that package would sound the death knell for the .41 Magnum, as such guns would provide about the same performance with a lot less logistical limitation. If you're gonna try to duplicate the .38-40, it might as well be a VERSATILE .38-40.

[contender1]

The 40 S&W was developed as a lower recoiling round than the 10mm which had been considered the ultimate LEO caliber. It was developed,, because the 10mm was "too much" for many LEO's to shoot & QUALIFY!

And, of course,,, the 9mm used to be the wonderchild of LEO's when the transition from revolvers to semi's was happening. It's recoil, and low cost, along with the NATO designation,,, it appeared to be the "best" choice for LEO's.

Then along came the infamous Miami shootout, where the wondernine's FAILED to take out a pair of determined thugs, hopped up on drugs & a desire to kill a lot of LEO's,,! This was 1986 if I recall the year correctly.
The Feds decided they needed a more powerful caliber to STOP a drug crazed thug, and the 10mm was pushed,, but the cost & recoil had it's own problems. The compromise was the 40 S&W.
As such, it became THE new caliber to use. And MANY guns were designed for it.

So, while semi-autos are the major type it's chambered in, some companies have & still produce revolvers to accompany the semi's, OR, to take advantage of the plentiful ammo & brass.

My son is LEO,,, and while the department issues a 9mm,,, he is allowed to carry any caliber & type of back-up gun, as long as he qualifies with it, as well as his duty issued handgun. My son chooses a .45 as his b/u.

The 40 S&W has a lot going for it. It can be shot by most who get a little bit of PROPER handgun training. It can be superior SD caliber,,, with the right bullet. But we all understand the physics of a proper bullet placement for any caliber or design. But when you add mass to a bullet, your margin of error is larger, and this is where the bigger calibers can prevail. So,m the 40 is better than the 9mm, yet not as good as the 45.

And remember,, if you look into history,, the 41 magnum was originally developed as the "perfect" LEO caliber decades ago. Less recoil than the 44 mag, and more stopping power than the 357.

[KCSO]

Uh they did... I currently have hands on a Ruger two cylinder in 10mm and 38-40 both have the same bore size. Full house 10's are expensive and have too much recoil for fun shooting, the 38-40's were too hard to get when the gun came out and are not much better now.

[Bent Ramrod]

There’s a revolver called the Rhino (I believe) that comes in .40 S&W. Not exactly a thing of beauty, and pretty expensive, but it is offered in the caliber. Supposed to be very ergonomic for recoil.

[Ramjet-SS]

There’s a revolver called the Rhino (I believe) that comes in .40 S&W. Not exactly a thing of beauty, and pretty expensive, but it is offered in the caliber. Supposed to be very ergonomic for recoil.

They do make a 40 revolver do not let the looks deter you the trigger pull is fantastic and they are accurate and easy to stay on target. Sure they do not look conventional but they shoot really well. I can fire a couple hundred rounds through my 357 magnum with full house rounds no problem at all.

[Jtarm]

They do make a 40 revolver do not let the looks deter you the trigger pull is fantastic and they are accurate and easy to stay on target. Sure they do not look conventional but they shoot really well. I can fire a couple hundred rounds through my 357 magnum with full house rounds no problem at all.

I finally got a chance to examine a Rhino recently and was not impressed with the DA trigger.

If I were going to spend over $1k for a .40 revolver, I’d look for an S&W 646 or find a smith who could convert a 686.

[Ramjet-SS]

I finally got a chance to examine a Rhino recently and was not impressed with the DA trigger.

If I were going to spend over $1k for a .40 revolver, I’d look for an S&W 646 or find a smith who could convert a 686.

My trigger on the 357 is really smooth its heavy but it's a defensive handgun so I am good with that. but transition and break are really consistent. I cannot speak to the one you handled but mine is good really good. It happens though might depend who at the factory put it together and what kind of day they were having.......:(

[Texas by God]

An SAA in .40 S&W would be fun to play with I think. 38-40 ballistics with no fuss.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Gray Fox]

I think that at about the time the .40 S&W started to hit the local departments they, like the Feds, had had to accept a bunch of physically smaller female recruits than the males who had previously been the only trainees. If they had to accept such new trainees they had to come up with a weapon/round that they could qualify with in significant numbers.

This is not intended to start ANY discussion about the merits of accepting such new officer/agent trainees. Just introducing another possible factor into what were probably a series of legal, societal and training issues. Those of you who were or knew department trainers during that period probably recall some of the training challenges that accompanied these issues. GF