Newbie caster, the question of FIT.

[cmk]

Actually, I haven't really started casting yet, just done a little bit of lead hoarding and some initial smelting/cleaning. But I have been reloading jacketed bullets for a few years, and this seemed like a fun next step. After reading the FAQ's and stickies, and spending far too much time on the lasc.us website, I think I'm starting to understand the basic concepts of fitting the bullet/boolit to the barrel.

Before I go order the mold, I would like to bounce a few questions towards all the knowledgeable people in here, so I don't waste time and money on something that would not work well.

My plan is to start casting plinking/practice GC-bullets for the 404 Jeffery (~.423), somewhere in the 350-375 grain area - hopefully being able to drive them at ~2000 fps, perhaps up to 2200. Design-wise I was thinking some type of bore-rider with a decent meplat, looking somewhat like Accurate molds #42-347J http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=42-347J-D.png. The looks of the bullet are not super-important though. Plan is to powder coat, rather than pan lubing. Use the softest alloy which works. 2-inch groups att 100 meters, and I would be very happy.

Questions:
1. Barrel is slugged to .4245, which makes me think it is safe to fire bullets sized to .427, correct? (twist is 1:14 i think)

2. I've not seen any gas checks specifically for the 404, but the online design program at Mountain Molds specifies that the 44 cal (.430) gas checks can/should be used with the 404 designs. So gas checks have been ordered already. Would seating these in the LEE push through sizer (.427) work fine? (I believe that it will, and since these are my first attempts at this I will not be buying a lubrisizer/lubamatic, just yet). Also going for a more exact match (.425 or .426) would mean a special/custom order for the sizer as well.

3. Should I do a chamber cast, just to know the exact dimensions? The barrel is a Lothar Walther on a Sako action, so I believe I will be restricted by magazine length before being able to seat the bullet far enough out to "kiss the lands". Am I in trouble with too short C.O.L?

3b. Assuming the .427 boolit scenario above is deemed OK, would I need to get another, larger expander for the reloading die? Brass that I've resized right now has an internal neck diameter of about .419, so this is perhaps too much neck tension for lead...

4. I will need a tool for belling the case mouth a little anyway, even with a slightly oversize GC, right?

5. Am I overthinking this? :-) There are so many little details where the novice gets nervous, because of lacking experience..

Thanks in advance.

[Bigslug]

Addressing a few of your points:

At the speeds you're looking to attain, the "softest alloy which works" is probably going to be some pretty hard stuff. Let your meplat do your killin' for you, and don't sweat expansion at those speeds.

I would probably request a mold that drops at .427" and size to .426", though I know nothing of powder coating and what it throws into the finished diameter.

The "pound cast" method of slugging (described in the stickies) out the throat area with pure lead and a case fired in your rifle is probably going to be the most useful method for learning what a custom mold really wants to be. Once you have those dimensions and know your rate of twist, I wouldn't worry overly about what the weight of the finished bullet is (harder cast penetrates WAY better than soft-core jacketed, so what you've learned from jacketed as to what constitutes a "necessary" amount of lead does not translate directly across.

Lyman M-die - useful for belling the necks.

[cmk]

Thanks for your replies Bigslug,


Addressing a few of your points:

At the speeds you're looking to attain, the "softest alloy which works" is probably going to be some pretty hard stuff. Let your meplat do your killin' for you, and don't sweat expansion at those speeds.

"Works" in this case means - little/no leading, not stripping the boolit over the lands, enters the target head-on, reasonable accuracy, preferably at similar velocities as jacketed bullets. Primarily not intended for hunting (use of expanding bullets is a legal requirement for anything bigger than a fox in this country)



I would probably request a mold that drops at .427" and size to .426", though I know nothing of powder coating and what it throws into the finished diameter.

Depending on the diameter when dropped, I would consider powder coating etiher before or after sizing. I believe that PC will normally add 0.001 to 0.002. But we're getting ahead of things here, I have not yet studied the PC threads enough.



The "pound cast" method of slugging (described in the stickies) out the throat area with pure lead and a case fired in your rifle is probably going to be the most useful method for learning what a custom mold really wants to be. Once you have those dimensions and know your rate of twist, I wouldn't worry overly about what the weight of the finished bullet is (harder cast penetrates WAY better than soft-core jacketed, so what you've learned from jacketed as to what constitutes a "necessary" amount of lead does not translate directly across.

I've seen a few youtube videos on the subject, and read some sticky as well. It seems rather more violent than doing a chamber cast with Cerrosafe, but it is hopefully no harm in trying. As I don't have any mold yet to cast a sacrificial bullet to be pounded, I guess I could try to cast some pure lead into a piece of pipe of an appropriate diameter. This would have the benefit (I guess?) of possibly being a bit longer than a real bullet, so that it would 'catch' more of the rifling.

Question: would the force of the pounding be sufficient to expand the case neck to the maximum that the chamber allows? Or should I try to expand it by some other means first?



Lyman M-die - useful for belling the necks.

Thanks for the tip, will look into that.

Anyone else with thoughts on what I should be thinking/doing/measuring before ordering my first mold, you are most welcome to speak up. :-) I realize that there is no single correct answer for all questions, and that in the end all rifles are individuals. However, I would like to avoid any obvious pitfalls.

BR, cmk

[white eagle]

there is no pat answer to your sizing issue
for the longest time I was under the impression you had to size
.002-.003 over size for cast sometimes it works out that way but
sometimes not so much
every gun tells its own story its up to the reader to understand
what is being told
that also holds true for bhn as well
so go forth and experiment enjoy the independence

[pworley1]

Welcome. Finding the right combination of size, bullet, and velocity for each gun is the the fun. Enjoy

[Larry Gibson]

cmk

My plan is to start casting plinking/practice GC-bullets for the 404 Jeffery (~.423), somewhere in the 350-375 grain area - hopefully being able to drive them at ~2000 fps, perhaps up to 2200. Design-wise I was thinking some type of bore-rider with a decent meplat, looking somewhat like Accurate molds #42-347J http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=42-347J-D.png. The looks of the bullet are not super-important though. Plan is to powder coat, rather than pan lubing. Use the softest alloy which works. 2-inch groups att 100 meters, and I would be very happy.

I was recently discussing using cast with a friend with a 404 and that bullet is a good choice. I don't PC as I prefer lubed bullets so can't comment on that. I've found pushing 400 gr cast bullets to 2300 fps in my 450-400-70 (Siamese Mauser in 45-70) that WQ'd COWW +2 tin alloy is about the softest that will hold up under that acceleration and give 2 moa or less accuracy at 100 yards.

Questions:
1. Barrel is slugged to .4245, which makes me think it is safe to fire bullets sized to .427, correct? (twist is 1:14 i think)

Yes, .427 sized cast will be safe to use assuming they chamber.....they should.

2. I've not seen any gas checks specifically for the 404, but the online design program at Mountain Molds specifies that the 44 cal (.430) gas checks can/should be used with the 404 designs. So gas checks have been ordered already. Would seating these in the LEE push through sizer (.427) work fine? (I believe that it will, and since these are my first attempts at this I will not be buying a lubrisizer/lubamatic, just yet). Also going for a more exact match (.425 or .426) would mean a special/custom order for the sizer as well.


My friend already loads for the .44 magnum and sizes his bullets at .430 so he will size, GC and lube the bullets in his Lyman 4500 lubrasizer then size them at .427 in a Lee push through sizer. Nothing "custom" needed for that.

3. Should I do a chamber cast, just to know the exact dimensions? The barrel is a Lothar Walther on a Sako action, so I believe I will be restricted by magazine length before being able to seat the bullet far enough out to "kiss the lands". Am I in trouble with too short C.O.L?

Always nice to know the dimensions and a proper chamber cast can easily give you that information. Given the recoil level and probable non-BR style of shooting with your rifle the bullet "kissing the lands" will be a moot point. I would load to an OAL that keeps the GC and lube grooves (in case you end up lubing the bullets) in the case and where a proper crimp can be applied. Reliability of function with the recoil of such loads will be more important.

3b. Assuming the .427 boolit scenario above is deemed OK, would I need to get another, larger expander for the reloading die? Brass that I've resized right now has an internal neck diameter of about .419, so this is perhaps too much neck tension for lead... /I]

Yes, you'll want an expander that leaves the inside neck diameter at .424 +/- a thousandth.

[I]4. I will need a tool for belling the case mouth a little anyway, even with a slightly oversize GC, right?

Yes. You might check with NOE for one of the right size.

5. Am I overthinking this? :-) There are so many little details where the novice gets nervous, because of lacking experience..

Not at all. You're simply addressing the correct issues to properly reload with cast bullets. Another option you may want to try is the .44 Magnum 300 or 310 gr GC'd bullets. The GCs can be sized and lubed in .429 - .431 sizers then sized down to .427 also.

[cmk]

Thank you very much for your lengthy and detailed answer.


cmk
I was recently discussing using cast with a friend with a 404 and that bullet is a good choice. I don't PC as I prefer lubed bullets so can't comment on that. I've found pushing 400 gr cast bullets to 2300 fps in my 450-400-70 (Siamese Mauser in 45-70) that WQ'd COWW +2 tin alloy is about the softest that will hold up under that acceleration and give 2 moa or less accuracy at 100 yards.

Questions:
1. Barrel is slugged to .4245, which makes me think it is safe to fire bullets sized to .427, correct? (twist is 1:14 i think)

Yes, .427 sized cast will be safe to use assuming they chamber.....they should.


Thanks for clarifying that safety aspect. As for the alloy to use, that (and the lubing/PC alternatives) is also for the future. One thing at a time.



2. I've not seen any gas checks specifically for the 404, but the online design program at Mountain Molds specifies that the 44 cal (.430) gas checks can/should be used with the 404 designs. So gas checks have been ordered already. Would seating these in the LEE push through sizer (.427) work fine? (I believe that it will, and since these are my first attempts at this I will not be buying a lubrisizer/lubamatic, just yet). Also going for a more exact match (.425 or .426) would mean a special/custom order for the sizer as well.


My friend already loads for the .44 magnum and sizes his bullets at .430 so he will size, GC and lube the bullets in his Lyman 4500 lubrasizer then size them at .427 in a Lee push through sizer. Nothing "custom" needed for that.


Sorry if I was unclear - I meant that the the closest to what I need regarding the Lee Push Through sizer, is either .410 or .427 - anything in between would be a custom order. Though I believe I've seen a .417 version some time in the past, but I could not find it again. From a money/delivery time point of view, I'd like to avoid as much custom stuff as possible at this point.



3. Should I do a chamber cast, just to know the exact dimensions? The barrel is a Lothar Walther on a Sako action, so I believe I will be restricted by magazine length before being able to seat the bullet far enough out to "kiss the lands". Am I in trouble with too short C.O.L?

Always nice to know the dimensions and a proper chamber cast can easily give you that information. Given the recoil level and probable non-BR style of shooting with your rifle the bullet "kissing the lands" will be a moot point. I would load to an OAL that keeps the GC and lube grooves (in case you end up lubing the bullets) in the case and where a proper crimp can be applied. Reliability of function with the recoil of such loads will be more important.


Non-BR style shooting indeed :-) From the recoil point of view I prefer shooting off the sticks. The reference to "land kissing" was from my (mis?)understanding that gas could start escaping around a too short bullet before it had properly entered the barrel, resulting in leading. The 404 case has a nice, long neck, and I believe it should be possible to seat deep enough for any grooves to be inside the neck, and still have the GC as the only part of the bullet 'visible' to the powder.

Regarding crimp, I have not done that for jacketed bullets, but perhaps this is needed with CB? The Redding dies I use have crimping as an option, but I haven't used it so far.



3b. Assuming the .427 boolit scenario above is deemed OK, would I need to get another, larger expander for the reloading die? Brass that I've resized right now has an internal neck diameter of about .419, so this is perhaps too much neck tension for lead...

Yes, you'll want an expander that leaves the inside neck diameter at .424 +/- a thousandth.


Interestingly, that is about what I have on a fired case (with jacketed bullets).
I guess I'll have to find a Redding expander of a larger diameter and try to sand it down a bit. I've seen that Brownells have one in .475 which could work?



4. I will need a tool for belling the case mouth a little anyway, even with a slightly oversize GC, right?

Yes. You might check with NOE for one of the right size.


Did take a look at the NOE site, but could not find any of a matching size. Would a Lee Universal Case Expander work for belling? Or is that the 'poor mans solution', which does not work so well?



5. Am I overthinking this? :-) There are so many little details where the novice gets nervous, because of lacking experience..

Not at all. You're simply addressing the correct issues to properly reload with cast bullets. Another option you may want to try is the .44 Magnum 300 or 310 gr GC'd bullets. The GCs can be sized and lubed in .429 - .431 sizers then sized down to .427 also.

That could be an option, but I was thinking more of a heavier design - nominally at .425 or .426 (+.002).
If it drops between .425 and .427, then PC first and then size + GC in the Lee .427 push through.
If it drops larger, then size and GC before PC. Then perhaps size again, depending on post-PC diameter.

Hopefully this works, but it is all still theories in my head.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer.

BR,

cmk

[cmk]

...
every gun tells its own story its up to the reader to understand
what is being told
that also holds true for bhn as well
so go forth and experiment enjoy the independence

Thanks. That is the plan anyway

[gpidaho]

So good to see a new member do his research and educate himself enough on the subject at hand to know what's important and what questions to ask. I know I've been guilty of asking a question or six when with a little time spent I could have found the information on my own. Welcome along cmk. Gp

[cmk]

So good to see a new member do his research and educate himself enough on the subject at hand to know what's important and what questions to ask. I know I've been guilty of asking a question or six when with a little time spent I could have found the information on my own. Welcome along cmk. Gp

Thanks for those kind words. For any given subject, I try to read up en the basics before asking questions. I discovered however that bullet casting is sport with many world champions ;) , i.e. once you get to page 43 in a thread on topics such as fluxing, tempers start running a bit high sometimes. There is not just the question of which is the best method, but if it is actually 'fluxing' at all, or if it is 'reduction' :)

So I guess there is more than one truth out there, and it's time to start experimenting.

[gpidaho]

cmk: Sadly, some are only on these forums only to argue and to them it's a bigger sport than shooting and reloading. You will learn who to ignore in short order. Gp

[gwpercle]

there is no pat answer to your sizing issue
for the longest time I was under the impression you had to size
.002-.003 over size for cast sometimes it works out that way but
sometimes not so much
every gun tells its own story its up to the reader to understand
what is being told
that also holds true for bhn as well
so go forth and experiment enjoy the independence

There is no pat answer for anything in this game....just cover the bases as best you can and jump in .
Start low and work charges up . It's not rocket science ....just use common sense and ask questions.
Good luck,
Gary
Who is thus Pat person ?

[Grmps]

cmk
If you're just starting off buying sizers, I would go with NOE they have many more sizes for boolit sizing and many sizes for nose sizing

I just looked and NOE doesn't make a 427 :(

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=104

after you've bought the Push Through Size Die Body the body bushings are $9.75 and the push rod is 7.50 (only 1 needed per caliber)

[Wayne Smith]

And if you contact NOE and point out the missing size and the application you are likely to see it catalogued in the near future! His expander plugs follow the Lyman M die style and fit the Lee expander die - I don't know if Lee's stuff is as ubiquitous in your country as it is here, but many buy the Lee die and use NOE's expander plugs.

[fredj338]

I played a bit with cast in my 404jeffery but decided to go jacketed, I know sacrilege. If you get two lee sizing dies, 0.427" & 0.423", you can size down 300gr 44mags for cheap plinking. They are quite accurate to 100y, under 2", so good for snap practice @ 50y or offhand at 100-150y. IF your bbl slugs 0.4245", I would just go 0.427" & call it good. No special sizing or 'M' die for seating. I do get the idea of casting your own though.

[Jeffrey]

Thanks for those kind words. For any given subject, I try to read up en the basics before asking questions. I discovered however that bullet casting is sport with many world champions ;) , i.e. once you get to page 43 in a thread on topics such as fluxing, tempers start running a bit high sometimes. There is not just the question of which is the best method, but if it is actually 'fluxing' at all, or if it is 'reduction' :)

So I guess there is more than one truth out there, and it's time to start experimenting.

In My Humble Experience the M die is worth its weight in gold. Because it neck expands with pressure toward the case head, it gives far less case stretch, resulting in much less case trimming.
As far as fluxing and reduction is concerned, far too few people fully understand the chemistry of cleaning dirty / oxidized lead. When refining / rendering scrap, lead the scrap is brought up to melting point. There are a lot of oxides of valuable metal that would be lost if all solids were skimmed off of the surface. A carbon source (wax or saw dust) is introduced to the melt and ignited. I like to use wax - less ash. The carbon begins burning (oxidizing). It does not care from where it gets its oxygen. It comes from the air, it comes from the oxidized metal. When it is pulled from the oxidized metal, that oxide is "reduced" to its unoxidized state and again becomes free (unattached to oxygen) metal which then is able to to reintegrate into the liquid metal. This is appropriately referred to as an "oxidation / reduction reaction". If you think tempers run high with fluxing vs reduction, you haven't seen some VERY spirited discussions of whether we are smelting or not.

[cmk]

Tried the the "pounding" method to get some chamber measurements, I'm guessing that the .427 boolit idea I had before just won't work...

Perhaps I can only go as wide as .425 to be able to chamber a loaded round.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=226738&stc=1&d=1536330184

[cmk]

Btw, would really appreciate any comments on whether I need to take any more measurements. The picture is a bit misleading, as the rifling actually goes almost all the way towards the end of the chamber, but at that point it is almost not noticeable.

I feel that "filling the throat" may be hard to achieve, or at least it would be a very tight fit in the chamber.

Bullet .425 + brass .014 + .014 = .453

Max chamber = .454

Would that be cutting it to close for reliable operation?

[Tom Myers]

Btw, would really appreciate any comments on whether I need to take any more measurements. The picture is a bit misleading, as the rifling actually goes almost all the way towards the end of the chamber, but at that point it is almost not noticeable.
I feel that "filling the throat" may be hard to achieve, or at least it would be a very tight fit in the chamber.
Bullet .425 + brass .014 + .014 = .453
Max chamber = .454
Would that be cutting it to close for reliable operation?

cmk,

All of the accurate, precise measurements that you can take are of value if interpreted and used correctly.
If you wish to have the first mold that you purchase to fit, chamber and shoot accurately, exact dimensions of your rifle's chamber are critical.

A chamber cast when done correctly and measured at the critical expansion time can usually provide reliable chamber throat and rifling dimensions but the critical chamber length and linear dimension relationships are sometimes difficult to arrive at due to the inconsistencies of the casting at the chamber base.

(click the underlined links for more information)

A chamber impact impression (http://www.tmtpages.com/draw/HelpfilesUlt-5/hs40.htm), when done correctly can provide all of the accurate, precise measurements needed to design a well fitted bullet for your chamber.

The 404 Jeffery Cartridge is a takeoff from the European C.I.P. chamber dimension of 404 Riml. N.E. Cartridge.
Combining your posted dimensions with the C.I.P. dimensions, I used the Precision Cast Bullet Design ~ Advanced (http://www.tmtpages.com/#advanced) plus the Cast Bullet Design ~ Ultimate (http://www.tmtpages.com/#ultimate) upgrade software applications to produce scaled dimensions of a Chamber, a Cartridge and a close approximation of the Accurate_Mold_42-347J

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/404%20Jeffery/404_Jeffery_C.I.P._Standard~Barrel~500-pi_Lg.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/404%20Jeffery/404_Jeffery_Generic~500-pi.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/404%20Jeffery/Accurate_Mold_42-347J~500-pi.Jpg


The Overlay option from the Ultimate application was then used to overlay and position the sketched in order that the perceived fit of the components con be observed

This is a large scale image of the overlaid and positioned images.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/404%20Jeffery/404_Jeffery~Accurate_Mold_42-347J~Throat_Lg.Jpg



The Ultimate application was then used to calculate, from the chamber and cartridge dimensions, a bullet with 0.0005" clearance on all throat radial dimension.
The software instructed the Bullet Design Application to draw a bullet with the correct throat dimensions.
This design was then slightly modified to use a Secant Ogive fitting the rifling leade angle then lengthening the nose and shortening the incase length, by the same amount, to produce a balanced bullet design.

If your chamber has these dimensions, -You would need to do a chamber impact impression to determine this - a bullet with these dimension should chamber and shoot with a greatly enhance possibility of being an accurate load.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/404%20Jeffery/A_Computer_Design_425-413-355_353_gr_Sketch.Jpg


http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/404%20Jeffery/A_Computer_Design_425-413-330~1000~Chamber.JPG


http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/404%20Jeffery/404_Jeffery~_Computer_Design_425-413-330.Jpg

[cmk]

Thank you Tom, those drawings look fantastic.

I had indeed found your "pound cast" impression guide - a very good one at that - and tried to follow it as well. That is where I got my measurements from. But I didn't get as good fillout as you have in your pictures. I shall do it again with a shorter, smoother slug to get the leade part properly filled. And perhaps use more force.

Maybe I need some better tools for measuring. Right now I have hobby-grade digital calipers with half-thousands precision, but one thousands accuracy. It is certainly good enough for my other reloading needs, but perhaps not here.

[cmk]

Short update: After some measurements and thinking (and more measurements), Tom at Accurate Molds drew up two new designs, which have now been ordered. Due to delivery times and traveling, I will have to wait until January to try them out.

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-350K-D.png
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-400K-D.png

Thanks again for all your input,
cmk

[waksupi]

Take a fired case, and slip a bullet in the neck. There should be slight resistance. That is what you are looking for. You aren't fitting a bullet to the bore, you need it to fit the throat.