Need some high speed cast 30-30 accurate loads!!

[30-30 guy]

Have 2 30-30's And want to develope some good hunting loads. Also have 3 lee molds, 150,170 and 180 molds, favorite loads would be helpful.

[mattw]

I have a couple of loads that are my goto loads, have been loading this for years. Check me against the book, but should be a published jacketed load. So, your boolits should be properly sized to the bore and well lubed (WL 2500+) with a gas check and decent alloy. Most of my boolits are cast from approximately 94/3/3 as I have plenty of base metals, COWW, lino, mono and tin to work with.

25.5gr 4895SC with a Lyman 311466, my mould is out of round but will size to .310 and still has lube in the grooves. This is an outstanding boolet, some cherries have a bit of a point to them and likely should not be used in a tube magazine. But, mine is nicely rounded.

25.2gr 4895SC with a Lyman 31141. This is an amazing round in my old Winchester, that is about all I can say! The flat meplat and the good lead in fit my rifle to a T.

24,9gr 4895SC with a Ranch Dog 311165. I do not own the mould, but was given a few to shoot and this was a very accurate load.

As you can see, I like 4895SC! I have many rifle powders, but time and time again this has worked so well that I have not seen a reason to change the load or work up a new powder. It is also excellent in the 222 mag and 222. I shoot both in F class guns that I built with McGowan barrels. It just dawned on me, I have never shot the 30-30 loads over a chronograph in many years of shooting those loads! I must do that this fall and update my data!!!

Happy hunting!

[mattw]

BTW, Welcome to your new online home for anything boolit related! This is a great place with a living knowledge base that is hard to fathom.

[Larry Gibson]

Are your rifles Marlins or Winchesters (US made)?

[Outpost75]

I have not found the common "dual-cylinder" bullets with groove diameter driving bands and approximate bore-diameter foreparts to give good accuracy in full-charge .30-30 loads unless the bullets are taper-bump swaged to ensure the forepart is large enough to actually engage the rifling. Getting a production cherried mold which fits properly is a matter of luck and exercising random variations of chance.

Accurate 31-155D and 31-171D are my tapered-nose designs which engrave the forepart like chambering a round of Eley Tenex .22 LR Match ammo in the Winchester 52 you may have used as a kid.

I use a "half" charge of the common extruded tubular rifle powder, as recommended for a jacketed bullet of the same weight with the plainbased 151D, and a "3/4" charge with the GC 171D. This works out to about 15 grains of 4895, 4064, RL15 or Varget with the 31-155D for 1400 fps and about 27 grains of the same powders with the GC'ed 31-171D for about 1900 fps.

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[mattw]

Nice boolits Outpost75.

[Harter66]

Choose one of those shoot it with Imr 4350 jacketed data start loads . Mine ran at near maximum jacket speeds .3 under the start loads from the Lyman books . Of course that was in a Savage bolt gun so I could be wrong .

[Larry Gibson]

LeveRevoltuion Powder; 30-30 w/150 gr Bullets

Picked up a pound of the new Hodgdon LeveRevolution powder. I wanted to get a feel for this powder before attempting cast bullet loads. The suggested load on teh powder lable said 35.5 gr with the 160 gr FTX bullet. I didn't have any of those but wanted to see how that powder did with 150 gr jacketed. I've a supply of 150 gr Winchester 30-30 PPs so I decided to work up a load with those. I started at 36 gr and worked up to 40 gr.

FLS'd PMC cases were used with WLR primers A LFCD was used to apply the crimp. AOL was 2.53". The rifle used for the test is my M94AE which has a strain gauge attached for psi measurements via the M43 Oehler PBL. The test was ran at TRRC range in University Place, 240 ft ASL with the temp at 48 degrees.

A 5 shot string of factory 160 LeveRevolution 160 gr FTX rounds were fired prior to the test to get a "reference" for velocity and the peak MAP (Maximum Average pressure). The factory ammo ran 2433 fps at 36,800 psi(M43). A previous test of that factory ammunition at 75 degrees gave 2452 fps at 37,800 psi(M43). The SAAMI MAP for the 30-30 is 42,000 psi. Given the temperature this morning I decided that a psi(M43) of 37,000 would be my MAP with the reloads.

Bottom line is 40 gr of LeveRevolution under that 150 gr PP is a 100% density load. It topped out at 37,100 psi(M43) with a velocity of 2551 fps. Accuracy for the 5 shots was 2.1" with the aperture sights. The time/pressure curve was not as steep with considerably more time under the "rise" than with the factory load. The peak psi was reached at mid barrel length (12") with the reload vs 9" with the factory load. Standard factory 150/170 gr jacketed load hit peak psi at 7 - 8" of barrel. Yes I can measure where the peak psi occurs in the barrel.

Some years back after reading Paco Kelly's articles on loading for the newer M94s I developed a Paco 150 gr load using H335 in a similar M94AE with a 24" barrel. Loads were developed by watching primer back out and stopping when the primer was no longer backing out. This indicates there is then sufficient psi to be pushing the case back against the bolt. PO Ackley gives a very good description of this technique in his writings. I stopped 3 gr under what a current loading manual listed as max for that bullet at the time. Velocity was 2527 fps and accuracy was good. That load tested this morning revealed a MAP of 44,400 psi(M43), obviously over SAAMI's MAP for the 30-30.

Bottom line here is that the LeveRevolution Powder is allowing a very real 2550 fps with 150 gr jacketed bullet at factory level psi's below the SAAMI MAP. That's pretty darn good to me and is a worth while powder thus far tested. I'm looking forward to some 311041s over this powder in this M94AE.

Results of 10 shot confirmation string with LeveRevoltion powder and the 150 gr Winchester PP 30-30 bullet. Reminder; testing was done in a 24" barreled M94AE Black Shadow rifle.

Before the results of the test load let's review factory 150 gr loads as tested in this same rifle. They range from 1975 fps with some older REM-UMCs up wards of 2301 fps with some new R-P and Federal 150 gr loads. The psi(M43) MAP of the 2300 fps loads was right at 38,800, pretty much where it should be given the temperature of the day and a commercial chamber/barrel used in testing. The old "Paco Kelly 150 gr load using H335 runs 2450 fps with the psi(M43) MAP at 40,200 with the highest psi at 42,500 psi. This would really be pushing the SAAMI MAP of 42,000 psi on a warmer day. Must be why I list it as a max load in my notes!

The LeveRevoltion load of 40 gr under the 150 gr PP in PMC cases with a WLR primer ran right at 2540 fps with a psi(M43) MAP of 37,000. The 10 shot velocity SD was 22 fps and the ES was 45 fps. The psi(M43) SD was 800 and the ES was 1,800. That is very uniform. Accuracy BTW was 2.4" 10 shot group at 100 yards with my tired old eyes and the aperture M66 rear sit with a post front sight, about the best I can do any more.

So for results we see a big performance gain of 240 fps over the fastest factory 150 gr ammunition and a 100 fps gain over the best reload with normal powder. All with less psi and better internal uniformity. The cost of the powder is very comparable to any other newly manufactured canister powder available today. Certainly an excellent load with jacketed 150 gr bullets or the Hornady 160 gr FTX. I will definitely be trying this powder with 177 gr 311041s in the 30-30 and perhaps there might be some applications in the .308W.

With cast bullets;

34.5 gr LeveRevolution (FC cases, WLR primers) under my 178 gr Lyman 311041 (COWWs +2% tin) runs 2208 fps out of my 21" test barrel at 13000 psi under the SAAMI MAP for the 30-30. Out od the 24" barrel of my Winchester M94AE Black Shadow this load runs 2315 fps with excellent accuracy (1 1/2 - 2 moa for 10 shots)

LeveRevolution powder requires close to 100% load density with cast bullets of at least 170 gr to burn efficiently. Suggest you try with your 170 and 180 gr bullets.

[mattw]

Larry, that is a pretty awesome write up. I sure would love to see how 4895SC would look with that gear. Don't go and make be buy another powder! :)

[30-30 guy]

Thanks guys for the info!!! Larry, Thanks for all your info, gonna bookmark this page and study it as to much for me to assimilate in one look!! I have an older H&R 30-30 which is a good shooter with midrange cast boolits and a new Thompson Center Encore with a MGM 24 inch barrel which I am just getting ready to play with!!! That's gonna be my cast boolit deer rifle!! So again thanks, this info will be used!!

[P Flados]

Here are some relatively obvious observations, and some things to watch out for.

I have loaded both the Lee 150s and the Lee 170s in 30-30s.

Did not take them hunting, but wanted to know that I could.

They both have the flat points that should have a better probability of good terminal performance. You probably still want a mid range hardness for some expansion, but this can limit max "good accuracy" velolcity (more on this later). Pointed and round nosed boolits can do just fine, I just feel that they need more luck and/or skill.

For longer ranges, 170s have a better BC hands down giving more "potentially usable range", but will normally have more drop.

For one M 94 Winchester, I wanted to load the 170's, but found them too long when a standard "crimp in groove" approach was taken. Since switching to the 150s was no big deal, that was my solution. Otherwise, I would have trimmed a batch of cases to allow reliable feeding with normal crimping.

The twist rate on your guns may come into play. I have pushed for max in my TC with a 14" 30-30, a 10" 30 Herrett and a 14" 30 Herrett. So far none of them like boolits and max loads. Softer lead, long nose riding profiles (like the Lee 170 & Lee 180) and lighter bullets that allow higher velocities are concerns. A combination of these factors are probably involved when loads are noted to go from "ok" to "50% off of the target" at some threshold velocity that is well below what you originally wanted.

In reality, accuracy and working on your ability to get the desired boolit placement are much more important than high velocity. A lot of game has been taken with boolits at a lot less than current factory 30-30 speeds. Speed can help with placement (less drop, less wind drift), but speed without accuracy is a waste.

For hunting with cast boolits in a 30-30, the Lee 170 is a good place to start & I would stick with it unless a specific gun just does better with the Lee 150. Since you have these I would give them a fair chance first. If you had nothing, and were willing to step up on the cost scale, what you see in the post by Outpost75 looks like a step up if you ask me. However, there is always the chance that a "better mold" will shoot great in most guns, just not the one you currently have.

As far a powder/load, try what you have and start off with just working up loads that shoot good in your guns. You are likely to end up at less than max. Your real life "in the field" boolit placement abilities will be more likely to limit your effective range than any terminal performance consideration on game normally taken with a 30-30.

[popper]

I use the LeverE for my full power 30/30 loads with 165-185 GC cast. Very good results. 30gr gives 1900 from my marlin 336. L.G. did some tests for me a few years back, Lee RD boolit, testing pressure for cast. Can't upload pics anymore but but accuracy was pretty much determined by the shooter not the load. Depending on your chamber, I'm finding I don't have to engrave but just have the nose into the rifling makes a big accuracy difference. Kinda like a really short (10-20 thous.) bore rider.

[30-30 guy]

Thanks guys, great info,didnt expect so much. Now I have plenty to work with in coming months.

[ShooterAZ]

I having also been running 34.5 gr LVR under the 311041 (Noe clone), in my 16" M94AE carbine. It runs @ 2048 fps, 10 shot average with excellent accuracy. Not too shabby for a 16" barrel. With this load I was using PRVI cases, WLR primers and WL2500+ lube. It's my new favorite load in my M94 hands down.

[P Flados]

FYI, For those of us that do not have all the Lyman mold numbers memorized, the 311041 is "Lyman 2-Cavity Bullet Mold #311041 30 Caliber (309 Diameter) 173 Grain Flat Nose Gas Check" that looks a lot like the Lee 170 from what I could see.

[Shiloh]

what is 4895SC??
IMR 4895??
Is it a shorter grain powder??

Shiloh

[mattw]

what is 4895SC??
IMR 4895??
Is it a shorter grain powder??

Shiloh

Yes, it is a short cut 4895. There are a few powders that have a short cut version. Much easier to measure and flows well.

[Tom Myers]

Yes, it is a short cut 4895. There are a few powders that have a short cut version. Much easier to measure and flows well.


I have been searching for a reference to IMR 4895SC and, so far, nothing shows up. Does anyone have a link to a location where it can be purchased?

[ShooterAZ]

Tom, I believe it will be H4895SC...not IMR.

[Tom Myers]

Tom, I believe it will be H4895SC...not IMR.

ShooterAZ, I also searched for H4895SC and still got nothing.

[Larry Gibson]

Commercial made H4895 has always been cut short. While it has been an "Extreme" powder for some years I'm not aware of it having an "SC" designation.

[P Flados]

I went to the source.

The Hodgdon web page for the extreme powders (first link) does include 4895. Their text (included below the links) applies to all of the extreme powders. Given that 4895 was on the short side to start with, they may or may not have made it even shorter (it does not look shorter to me looking at pic #3 at the second link). Several charts include both IMR and H versions where you can see a big change in temperature sensitivity of the "new" extreem versions. Note that on this page the H version of 4831 is shown as H4831SC and the H version of 4350 is shown as HS4350.

As far as 4895, I could find no Hodgdon reference to H4895SC. If so then they are creating confusion (not unusual actually, see below). Otherwise it is still just H4895 consistent with their extreme page and their page specific to the powder (second link).

They are creating some confusion with 4831 where the seem to sell both a regular length H4831 and a short cut H4831SC. The say that both use the extreme formulation. Also the extreme page used HS4350 where elswhere it is still just H4350.

In IMR land, I noted that they now have a 7828 SSC with "super short kernals". The IMR enderon entries are "all new" designations where they add copper fouling reduction to the other features of the Hodgdon extreme powders.

They are also contributing to confusion in that it appears that the overall company is now producing 4 extruded powders (IMR 4831, H4831, H4831SC, IMR 4955) and 2 ball powders (WW 780 & H Superperformance) that all are at the ~4831 burn rate (link 3).

https://www.hodgdon.com/extreme-rifle-powders/

https://www.hodgdon.com/h4895/

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf

SHORT GRAIN METERING
With Hodgdon Extreme powders you get the best of both worlds. On one hand you get extruded performance that outperforms the best long grain powders on the market in any kind of weather. On the other, the shorter grains produced in the extrusion process meter extremely well. That means you can use Extreme powders in progressive loaders for high volume loading. Whether you’re loading for targets, big game, plinking or varmints, Hodgdon has an extruded powder that will work for you.

[mattw]

I purchased 8# and 1# jugs of H8495SC somewhere in the early to mid '90s. Trust me, at that time there was a difference. It looks like now there is only one flavor and maybe it is shorter than original H4895? My H4895SC was bought in bulk and packed in containers while I worked with a commercial reloader and caster. Maybe that is the difference. It ran well in 1050's back then, the long stuff did not.

[P Flados]

I purchased 8# and 1# jugs of H8495SC somewhere in the early to mid '90s. Trust me, at that time there was a difference. It looks like now there is only one flavor and maybe it is shorter than original H4895? My H4895SC was bought in bulk and packed in containers while I worked with a commercial reloader and caster. Maybe that is the difference. It ran well in 1050's back then, the long stuff did not.

I still have a little from my most recent purchase of 4895. One lb can in the 70s ($6.88) and it ws IMR. I measured grain length to be pretty short at 0.059". Not as short as 4227, not as long as 3031.

As far as them marketing a H4895SC at one point, it sounds typical. Remember I said "If so then they are creating confusion (not unusual actually.."

[gwpercle]

Here is my pet 30-30 load for early 1970's model 94 Winchester .
Lyman #311041 173 gr. FP w/ gas check or Lee 170 gr. FP w/ gas check , both work equally well.
Cast from 50-50 COWW and lead + 1% tin to aid fill out. Air cooled .
Sized .308 or .309 (it doesn't seem to make a difference) . Lithi-Bee lubricant .
Seated over 27.5 grains of Reloader 7 = 2,311 fps . Crimp into the boolit's crimp groove .
This load has accounted for a number of deer.

What powders do you want to use ?

Gary

[Larry Gibson]

Seated over 27.5 grains of Reloader 7 = 2,311 fps

Did you actually chronograph that load?

I only ask because 28 gr RL7 only runs 2130 fps out of my 24" barreled M94.

[Chad5005]

this is a great thread and will be book marked,it will come in handy for loading for my 336 and a new powder to try out