The importance of Dies?

[crabo]

I am beginning to get my S&W PC 44 Mag to shoot a little. With some advice from Bass Akward on using LLA over my cast and lubed boolets, I have my leading problem under control.

I am using a Square Deal to load my ammo. I am wondering if the sizer is too large. 44 Man talks alot about having enough case tension. I don't think I am getting this. Is there anyway to get more case tension with the SDB?

I have thought about getting my dies out and sizing in my old dies, on a single stage and then finishing up on the Suare Deal. Is this a good solution, or am I going backwards?

I know that I need to try it to know for sure, but some of you may have gone through this before.

Thanks,

[Ben]

I have several brands of 38/357 mag. sizing dies.

Seems each of them places slightly different neck tension on the seated cast bullet.

I'd go in the direction that you've outlined. You may get what you are looking for.

Remember that your OD of the expander plug may also be part of your problem . Possibly too large of an expander plug. Check that. If it is too large, it can be spun with a drill, then put a Swiss file on it checking it with a good mic.as you reduce the OD .001 at a time checking your work constantly with your mic. Remove .001 from the plug , clean , reassemble the expander die and expand a few cases that you've sized . Seat a few bullets, trial and error. If you need more tension, remove another .001, .............Smooth everything up with some 320 sand paper. You can get the desired case neck tension you desire with this method.

Ben

[mike in co]

SINCE THE SQUARE deal is unique in its dies, i'd be very cautious of changing the dies. ben's direction is good, but i would start with increasing crimp a little at a time before i played with the sizer.

mike in co

[Boomer Mikey]

SINCE THE SQUARE deal is unique in its dies, i'd be very cautious of changing the dies. ben's direction is good, but i would start with increasing crimp a little at a time before i played with the sizer.

mike in co

Increasing the crimp won't change neck tension appreciably.

You could use a single stage press with another sizer die to "partial" size the case mouth for the length of the bullet and do as Ben suggests or try another expander like a Lyman "M" die and modify the "M" die to your liking... they're relatively inexpensive and you won't mess up your regular die set.

If you're going to tinker with dies and experiment with neck tension, expander plugs, etc. a single stage press is a necessity. The Lee clasic cast press is very reasonable and several other single stage presses won't set you back much compared to the versatility one provides.

Boomer :Fire:

[Larry Gibson]

The expander on the SDB is a small part that is easily replaced. It is also the powder funnel that is up inside the powder thrower. Size a case and then mic the inside diameter (not more than the depth you will seat the bullet) before it is run over the expander. If the the inside diameter is .003"+ less than the diameter of you bullets you have sufficient neck tension to begin with. Then run the case over the expander and mic the inside again (not more than the depth the expander went in). You should end up with the inside diameter not less than .003" less than your bullet diameter. Many prefer mor neck tension than that but thhat is the minimum I've found for good ignition in the .357, .41 and .44s. If the expander is too large you can easily chuck the powder funnel/expander in a drill or lathe and stone it down. New ones are not expensive and easily obtained from Dillon.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Crabo, remember that if your boolits are soft you can size them when seating in a case with good tension. Tension does not have to be super tight but must be even from case to case.
I use hard boolits and can see the grease grooves through the brass but that won't work with a soft boolit.
Adding more and more crimp will not do a single thing except ruin brass. You will never help burn rate by adding more crimp. Besides, a real hard crimp with a soft boolit will also size the boolit as it leaves the brass. You can see this when there is some crimp left on a fired case. The brass should be OPEN after shooting. It should look the same as when a jacketed bullet is shot.
The Dillon is made to load thousands of loads FAST for close range banging, not for accuracy. Get a set of Hornady dies and use the single stage press. The Redding BR powder measure will throw powder as good as any custom measure too. It is my standby.
Sometimes you just have to give up and change because you can't rely on equipment to do what you want. It is not you, it is your choice of loading equipment.
All accuracy loading should be done SLOOOOW too, No banging the handle like crazy. FEEL the boolit seating, Feel the size die and expander. Seat primers smoothly and evenly. You will learn to love what you get instead of a huge pile of loads.
Casting is the same. I might make 50 boolits at a time but ALL are perfect and don't need weighed or sorted. Instead, they go where aimed.
There is no fast way to accuracy, just learn to relax and hold one exceptional round in your hand to admire. That one round will drop a deer so far you will be amazed.

[Boomer Mikey]

I agree with 44man; the SDB was made for guys that want to make "reloads" and it can make quality jacketed and cast bullet reloads for GP use.

If you want to make "handloads" where you can tinker with things like partial sizing, neck size, reform brass, etc. the single stage or full size progressive presses are better tools.

Each of us has our own way of making loads to meet our needs and progressives can save lots of time accomplishing repetitive tasks efficiently but the single stage press can load everything with a minimal investment in cost. I use 2 Dillon 550B presses to prep and load brass from 9MM to 308 in 3 stages... resize & expand case mouths (M-die), by hand; prime and charge cases, then seat and crimp bullets in the Dillon 550B's. Low volume and high energy/quality stuff gets the single stage only treatment.

IMO just about anything used out to 100 yards can be loaded OK on progressives and they are the only way to go for high volume work in less demanding applications.

I get better long range or high accuracy loads using a single stage press. I really don't care if it takes more time as these typically aren't high volume applications for me.

7/8" Standard dies are the way to go for handloads... you can choose from many vendors, levels of quality, and custom styles to meet your needs as well as modify them to meet your needs if necessary. Progressive dies are intentionally made "sloppy" to reduce "jams" and you're limited to the vendor's concept of acceptable tolerances.

If you want to change die/expander dimensions get a set of diamond coated Swiss files and silicon carbide abrasive paper/India stones. Dies are usually hardened and a regular file won't cut them. I use carbide tooling in my lathe and diamond coated Swiss files... even the cheap diamond files at Harbor Freight will work fine.

There's no single item that will make high accuracy handloads, they're the resultant accumulation of many small procedures done right.

Boomer :Fire:

[docone31]

I use an hand primer tool for seating my primers, I use single stage presses for seating my rifle boolitts. I go by the feel mostly, and have developed habits where I always check primer depth, and boolitt seating. I also on my rifle dies, fill the cases one by one. I fill, look, seat the boolitt.
I gave up on my progressive on rifles. It really does not save much time, and I always wonder if I got a full charge. I always have, but, I wonder less on single stage. Just me.
With lead castings, I think I get a better seating when I do them one at a time. Especially with paper.

[mike in co]

well to each his own.
i load some of my BENCHREST ammo on my dillon 550's.
i do load in two steps in most cases, and three for benchrest with powder being weighed in step two.

but

the guy is talking a 44 mag, not a target pistol, not a benchrest rifle.

i never said to over crimp, but increasing from a lite mild crimp to a heavy crimp will affect burn and accuracy...i have done it.....so saying it won't is a waste of time.

i see no reason to not use the dillon powder measure for pistolor rifle loads unless you are using a powder that doess not flow well.

i mainly use accurate powders and the dillion loves aa2i, aa5, aa7,aa9 and wc820( my lot a slow aa9). nearly all my 223 is done with some accurate powder and the two that are not(vvn133,8202) flow very well.

say what you want on how you do things and why you like it that way, but all commercial match ammo is done on high speed machines. if you have ever shot a commercial 308 win sierra match load, then know machines do work.
i use my one and only single stage press to resize my very warm 6ppc brass......all else is lee hand loaders for odd/low volume loading or one of the two dillon 550's.
i load to shoot, i do not shoot to reload.
if you understand the difference, then maybe you understand the need for progressive presses.



i have said this before, its not new, but in the 50/60's to the common man all there was were single stage presses. people learned that way. the problem is those people think it is the only way. a dillon 550b for pistol and most rifle, is light years ahead of a single stage press.
if you can drive a manual transmission, you can load safely on a dillon. if you are more comfortable on a one speed bicycle with coaster brakes, stick with single stage.

neither press is right or wrong, its about what YOU are comfortable with.

i started with a lee loader in 222 and then went to progressive presses.....i never owned or used a single stage press till i started working on my 6 ppc a year or so ago.

mike in co

[mike in co]

I use an hand primer tool for seating my primers, I use single stage presses for seating my rifle boolitts. I go by the feel mostly, and have developed habits where I always check primer depth, and boolitt seating. I also on my rifle dies, fill the cases one by one. I fill, look, seat the boolitt.
I gave up on my progressive on rifles. It really does not save much time, and I always wonder if I got a full charge. I always have, but, I wonder less on single stage. Just me.
With lead castings, I think I get a better seating when I do them one at a time. Especially with paper.

doc,

i'm not picking on you,,,,i hand seat close 99% of my primers in lee tools. may i ask, how many primers do you buy at a time for any given rifle ???

mike

[docone31]

I save up my brass untill I have 500. I vibrate, deprime, size, prime, charge, seat.
When I purchase primers, I get them by the brick. I have stumbled on Wolf primers. Not too bad. A little tight in the primer pocket, but good end results.
I sit back, and do it in stages. I get to watch a lot of movies. I have it down to a system.
It really ends up relaxing. Prime for a few hours, then, charge and seat one at a time.
When I find my pet load, I make a dipper. Scoop, tap twice, good to go. After a fashion, you develop a touch.
When I make my dippers, I weigh, dump, weigh again, dump, weigh again, dump. I do this untill I am so close to the weight it is splitting hairs, then charge.

[mike in co]

I save up my brass untill I have 500. I vibrate, deprime, size, prime, charge, seat.
When I purchase primers, I get them by the brick. I have stumbled on Wolf primers. Not too bad. A little tight in the primer pocket, but good end results.
I sit back, and do it in stages. I get to watch a lot of movies. I have it down to a system.
It really ends up relaxing. Prime for a few hours, then, charge and seat one at a time.
When I find my pet load, I make a dipper. Scoop, tap twice, good to go. After a fashion, you develop a touch.
When I make my dippers, I weigh, dump, weigh again, dump, weigh again, dump. I do this untill I am so close to the weight it is splitting hairs, then charge.


thanks doc,
i'm starting a new thread on this subject.
mike

[Ranch Dog]

All accuracy loading should be done SLOOOOW too, No banging the handle like crazy. FEEL the boolit seating, Feel the size die and expander. Seat primers smoothly and evenly. You will learn to love what you get instead of a huge pile of loads.
Casting is the same. I might make 50 boolits at a time but ALL are perfect and don't need weighed or sorted. Instead, they go where aimed.
There is no fast way to accuracy, just learn to relax and hold one exceptional round in your hand to admire. That one round will drop a deer so far you will be amazed.

Very well said!

[44man]

OUCH, Mike, just a .44!!!!! [smilie=1: I hope your not saying accuracy is not there and is not worth the labor?
Back when I could see open sights, I could shoot 6 out of 6 pop cans at 100 yd's from Creedmore with my SBH. My SRH with a scope would do it at 200 yd's from bags and I kept 12 straight shots on a 5 gallon bucket at 400 meters from Creedmore.
I think this is what Crabo wants to do. The .44 can be made to shoot better then we can control it.
I DO agree that a perfect crimp aids burn rate but it just stops improving at that point and the result is so small as to be ignored. Firm yet EVEN neck tension will further improve burn rate and accuracy far beyond what any crimp will give you.
This is why the .357 and .357 Max will be super accurate. The smaller diameter brass is easier to hold even tension with. As the brass gets larger in diameter, you need to start adding more control as you load. Yeah, it is hard to do and I have tried all kinds of dies and even have special BR collar dies that will load to BR accuracy but are a real pain to use. I found Hornady dies do almost as good.
I have nothing against the automatic machines, just that your input for revolver accuracy is not there. You are stuck with what they make for the machine and they feel as you do---JUST a .44! :brokenimaNow if you want to have fun, come over and shoot my .475 and 45-70 BFR's. I will have you shooting 1" groups at 100 yd's in short order and you will not want to quit until you burn up all of my loads! :Fire: Then you will want to go to the 500 meter range with me. Then your order for a new revolver will be in the next day! :drinks:
Listen to Obama, if you want accuracy, all you need to do is CHANGE! [smilie=w:

[Bass Ackward]

There is a lot more to dies than neck tension. There is also alignment.

One way to increase neck tension is to increase the bearing area of your bullet. Anopther is to seat deeper. Or you can decrease case diameter. You increase neck tension by either of the three methods.

Some dies won't load some designs as well as others to get alignment. Some dies will allow certain designs load off center that can deform the base on a PB slug.

So is PB harder to shoot accurately? Or just harder to load well?

[crowbeaner]

When I had that problem with my SDB, I simply put the 41 mag expander/powder funnel in. That way the case was sized to minimum, and the bell was big enough to start the boolits in. It also gave me great neck tension for using slow powders like WW296 and H110. You have to tinker a bit to get the amount of bell right.