Another Newbie Leading Horror Story

[ironmike17]

I have put 27,000 rounds of FMJ through the tube of my Kimber 1911 over the last ten years. Went to lead to save money. Purchased a Lee 230 gr. LRN mold with micro bands for tumble lubing, a Lee pot and Alox. Figured out how to cast good boolits and shot 100 rounds over 4.8 grains of Clays. Got the worst leading I ever saw. Did the following, shooting 100 rounds at a time: bought a sizer in .452, stopped crimping, went to Unique 5.8 grains, then Unique 5.5 grains, and heat treated 100 rounds. After every set of 100 rounds, I had terrible leading. After each 100 rounds, I cleaned the barrel squeaky clean. I figured it must be the barrel with the high round count of FMJ, so I slugged it. The major diameter at the breech is .452 and the major diameter at the muzzle is .454. The minor diameter at the breech is .445 and the minor diameter at the muzzle is out of round, and measures .445 to .457. The chamber at the base of the cartridge is out of round and measures .483 to .485. The chamber at the riflings is .475. Eureka! Bad barrel! Just to make sure, I cleaned the barrel on my newer .45 and put 100 rounds through it, figuring that the newer barrel with only about 1,000 rounds of FMJ through it would shoot clean. These 100 rounds were sized to .452, tumble lubed with liquid Alox and seated to OAL of 1.265 with no crimp. It leaded almost as badly as the first barrel. I am obviously making some rookie mistake and no one at my club has a clue. Any help and advice would be appreciated.

[randyrat]

Have you tried 4.1 grs of Clays and 5.1 grs of unique. Are you sure your not using some real soft lead were heat treating will do nothing to harden your alloy. What i'm leaning toward is your alloy may be too soft for your stout loads. As far as the measurments i'm no help. How did it shoot with FMJs?,,,, Are you sure your not squeezing that cast bullet down too much when your seating the bullet? Did you let the Alox dry over night before you shot/loaded them. Can you chamber them unsized?

[RGS]

Looks to me like you are using a real light load of Unique. I'd try to work it up to the 7 to 7.5 gr level and see if the bullets bump up enough to seal the bore. Too light a load and too hard a bullet will cause leading because the bullet isn't punched hard enough to fill the barrel. Are you able to scratch the bullet with your thumb nail? Your 5.5 load is the starter load listed in the Lyman Handbook for the 225gr lead rn.

Are you getting failures to feed? That is another indication your load is not generating enough pressure to cycle the action fully.

Do you have a chronograph? They are a big help in load development.

I haven't loaded for a 1911 in many years, but I remember I used 700x and it seemed to work fine. If you can't get Unique to work try the faster stuff and work your way up toward the top of the load data. If you can't find something that will work, you may need to try another bullet.

[docone31]

Wow,
Everyone I know who has a Kimber cannot shoot lead. A fairly close acquaintenance has even tried my castings. He is a meticulous cleaner.
I fire 200gn RN, Lee mold, with Blue Dot. My wife's Taurus PT1911 absolutely loves that round. I never slugged it, just sized to .452 and blazed away. Same with my Firestorm. I pan lube, size to .452.
With my Firestorm, with jacketed 200gn HP, it fires dead on. With cast 200gn Flat Point, It is 2" left. Same powder charge. My wife's Taurus doesn't care. I almost wish the grip fit my hand on her pistol. It fits her like a glove.
I cast wheel weights, water drop, pan lube, size. I added tin to the wheel weight mix, and add tin depending on the casting quality. Another thing I do, I mix my alloy, then make ingots again. Mixing the alloy up, I believe helps the consistancy.
Perhaps, trying pan lube types might minimize the leading. Cleaning with chore boy pads assist in deleading. Perhaps sizing to .453 might make up the difference. I also do not crimp, either taper, or plain crimp. I do not do it with jacketeds also.
I do like Blue Dot.

[randyrat]

Double/triple check your numbers.

[HeavyMetal]

Let's take a set backwards here and return to the basics.

first question what is your lead source for the boolits your casting?

Using a tumble lube boolit are you using them as cast?

If so have you "miked" them and what is the as cast diameter?

Have you "miked" your expander button, if so what is it?

With this information we can make some "educated" guess's. Now I'm going to take a WAG as to the issue here. I'm going to guess your using a dies set that has an expander button in the .450 range plus or minus .001. If your boolits are coming out .453 or .452 and your expander is .450 the boolits will be sized to .450 by the case when you set the boolit!

This is particulaly true with the very small bands on the tumble lube boolits!

In this instance you now have an undersized boolit, no where near enough pressure to "bump" up the boolit base to fill the rifling, so you get leading and lots of it.

This is the same thing Randyrat mentioned in his post just longer winded.

Please check these suggestions out and see if the problem goes away.

[crabo]

Wow,
Everyone I know who has a Kimber cannot shoot lead. .

I have no problem shooting H&G 68s sized 452 in my Kimber.

[billyb]

[QUOTE=docone31;400299]Wow,
Everyone I know who has a Kimber cannot shoot lead." I have two kimbers, a custom 2 and the stainless eclipse, I shoot lead in both, a lot of lead! I use an alloy close to #2. I use lars carnuba red, used to use zambini red,like the lars lube. I shot 450 rounds through the custom 2 last tuesday, cleaned the gun had one small wisp of leading,acouple of strokes with the chore boy and it was gone. Never had a problem with leading with the kimbers. I size 452 use 4.9 grains of 231 with 200 swc and 230 grain rn. Bill

[The Nyack Kid]

[QUOTE=docone31;400299]Wow,
Everyone I know who has a Kimber cannot shoot lead." I have two kimbers, a custom 2 and the stainless eclipse, I shoot lead in both, a lot of lead! I use an alloy close to #2. I use lars carnuba red, used to use zambini red,like the lars lube. I shot 450 rounds through the custom 2 last tuesday, cleaned the gun had one small wisp of leading,acouple of strokes with the chore boy and it was gone. Never had a problem with leading with the kimbers. I size 452 use 4.9 grains of 231 with 200 swc and 230 grain rn. Bill


Ditto
I'm using the 230grn 452374 , ACWW ,lube is felix-lube, sized 452 on top of 5.0 grns of WW-231 . I dont get leading in my gold match nor do my buddys pt1911 and hi-point lead up with that load .

[Slogg76]

It is weird, but I shot tens of thousands of rounds of my cast bullets through various firearms from Ruger Redhawks, Winchester 94's, CZ autos, and Kimbers. The only firearms I ever had leading problems with were Kimbers. I shot cast through no less than seven Kimbers (three of my own) and they all leaded horribly. Tried many different loads from light to heavy, soft alloys to laser cast commercial bullets, etc. Nothing would really work. They were all incredibly accurate, but the leading was just horrible. I just started thinking lead was not for Kimbers. Of course that was just my experience with them and seven pistols are not a big sample of all Kimbers produced.

[Just Duke]

Barrels worn out or is a polygonal bore.

[38-55]

Talk about bizzare threads... A barrel is a barrel and it's just takes a little fiddling some times to see what it likes.. I have a kimber with 60,000 plus lyman 452374 down the tube and a pretty good pile of lymans 452460's to boot. No appreciable leading that I can ever remember. I've used lee liquid alox and the old nra formula and some type of moly lube and some orange stuff of unknown origin with no problems ( yes I even went back and checked my notes). I use mostly spg these days and it seems to work well and the fouling stays soft ( and it's what's in both of my sizers ). I've shot unique from 4 gns to 7gns with no problems ( 7 gns is rather spicy ! ).
I'd try your bullet with starting with 5 gns and not sized if it will chamber. Let the 'big light' do the sizing. If that doesn't work I'd try another more traditional bullet with a large lube grove. Another trick I've found with alox is to put it on a patch and run it down the bore after a 'squeaky' cleaning to kinda pre-lube the barrel. Works sometimes..
Just some random thoughts for ya..
Calvin
Ps by the way I use pretty much any kind of lead for the 45's ( mostly ww ) Mine don't seem to need anything in particular in the way of alloys of heat treating

[MT Gianni]

My Kimber has never seen jacketed. I bought it new in 1999. Gianni

[compass will]

Just a thought. The name "Clays" is used on 3 different powders. Are you using the same Clays everybody here is talking about?

Here is the Clays I use in my 45 Colt

http://www.hodgdon.com/images/clays1b.jpg

Here are the other 2 Clays
International Clays
http://www.hodgdon.com/images/int1b.jpg

Universal Clays
http://www.hodgdon.com/images/uni1b.jpg

[Pawpaw]

In my Kimber, I use that same Lee 230 grain tumble lube bullet over 4.5 grains of Bullseye. The bullets get lubed with a light coat of LLA. I don't size the bullets, but load them as-cast. The final step in loading is to run them through a Lee Factory Crimp die.

They shoot great and leading is not an issue.

[Firebird]

I have an old Kimber Polymer (old grip frame, not the later "II" that's squared off like a 2x4) that I shot Bullseye using a 12 lb recoil spring and a light target load consisting of the old Star swaged 185 LSWCHP bullets above 3.8 gains of Titegroup. First several times the barrel leaded badly, I cleaned it with a brush wrapped in bronze wool, then polished it with JB bore paste. After several weeks, the leading went away and now that gun can go 500+ rounds without any leading. I just thought that the leading was caused by roughness in the bore that was gradually polished away by the JB paste.

[35remington]

First, a list of don't do's having to do with the previous posts:

DO NOT use 7 to 7.5 grains Unique with 230 grain lead bullets. This is old, obsolete information. Pressures in excess of +P WILL result, and velocities will be well over 1000 fps with this bullet. Too much. 6.5 Unique will send a jacketed 230 RN out of my 5 inch 1911's at 920 fps and should be considered top end.

Your load of Clays exceeds Hodgdon's data. Perhaps you have another source that allows more? You're near top end with that powder as well.

Your alloy is wheelweights, I presume? Have you tried softer mixes like range scrap or such, in the range of BHN 8-11 to see if a softer alloy works better?

About your measurements - a barrel that is larger at the muzzle than the breech is hard to deal with as regards leading, if your figures are accurate.

While the barrel is still clean, fire and recover a few bullets in wet newsprint. Look for severe gascutting or other clues something is going on, and report back here. You can learn much from bullet recovery from an unfouled barrel - you will see the things occuring that lead to lead fouling.

[38-55]

To ALL !
My bad about posting the 7 gns of unique. While I have done it I do not recommend it. It is wayyyyyyy to hot. I would say the even 6.5 may be to much. These days I limit my lead stuff to 6 gns of unique though I mostly load 5 gns. Hope that clears some thing up.
My load info shows that 4 gn is max for clays...
Calvin

[ironmike17]

I would like to thank all of you who took the time to share your knowledge. randyrat: The lead is wheel weights. I will definitely try 4.1 gr of Clays, as I have an unopened 8-pound jug left. The Kimber ran fine with FMJ's. I did not always let the Alox dry overnight. I tried some dried for two days and got a little less leading. The bullets chamber fine in the unsized condition. RGS: I will work with both Clays & Unique loadings. I can scratch the bullet with my thumbnail, but it is more like a polished line than a scratch. My thumbnail barely catches on the scratch. Last night at the range I had two failures to go into full battery out of 65 rounds, and once the slide did not stay back on an empty mag. Not good reliability. Probably short-cycling. I don't have a chronograph, but Santa will probably bring me one. Doesn't help now. docone31: I will try water-dropping some, next time I cast, and will check out pan lube. randyrat: I will also try beeswax. Note: It will take me a couple of weeks to change one variable at a time, so I know what is helping. heavymetal: My metal source is wheelweights. To get started, I did not melt actual wheelweights, but purchased clean ingots. I tried them "as cast" early on, but the "as cast" boolits were oversized at the heel or base, running between .452 and .454. The dimension near the lube grooves was .452 I purchased a .452 sizer, which is only swaging of metal occurs at the base. I think your comments on the bullet being sized by the case makes sense, as a loaded round shows a slight case bulge at the boolit. I will mic. my dies. I will also pull some boolits out of loaded rounds and mic. them. To crabo, billyb The Nyack Kid, Slogg 76, DUKE NUKEM, Pawpaw, Firebird and MT Gianni concerning Kimber barrels: I hope you are right about Kimber barrels, because I don't want to buy a new barrel if it doesn't help. I will only abandon the Kimber barrel if all else fails. I am concerned that I damaged my barrel somehow in the past, as shown by the premature wear (.452 breech, .454 muzzle) and the taper in the chamber dimensions. I have used an Outer's Foul-Out kit tor years to remove copper fouling. Maybe I used it wrong. 38-55: I did try running a patch of Alox through the barrel, and last night's leading was easier to remove. compass will: I am using Clays (your top picture) and not International or Universal. 35remington: Thanks for the powder charge tips. I slugged the barrel twice when I saw taper the first time. I always clean from the breech using a brass rod, but somehow I have damaged the barrel. I still want to work with it for now, as I am cheap. I will fire into wet newsprint and examine for gas cutting. What thickness of newsprint do you recommend? Once again, my thanks to all of you. It will take me a couple of weeks to set up the proper sequence of testing and carry out the tests. I will post the results then. Best Regards, Mike

[randyrat]

Could be as simple as a new rough barrel, not broke in yet and the first barrel was worn out.. BTW if you size at .452 it is normal to see a slight bulge. I was thinking that your die may have been sizing your brass and bullet down too much when seating the bullet.

[35remington]

It takes around sixteen inches of newsprint to stop lead roundnose similar to ball in the .45 ACP at velocities around 820-850 fps. SWC's usually penetrate a bit less. Compacting the wet books tightly will reduce penetration an inch or two.

A comment: the Lee TL 230 RN, or any of their tumble lube bullets for that matter, show pretty severe gascutting above 4.0 grains of Clays when cast hard. A combination of not enough lube (a lube groove full of soft lube would be more forgiving), and bullets too hard to bump up. Large lube groove SWC's of the H&G pattern show much less gascutting even when hard cast.

This from a 1911.

Now, I am not down on LLA; it is just less forgiving sometimes that a bullet with deeper lube grooves and a good soft lube. Even the hard lubes will shoot clean in the HG pattern 200's with hard bullets due to the wide and large lube groove, IMO.

With a good barrel and proper lead mixture the Lee TL designs will work fine with LLA in .45 ACP, but it is a bit smoky. If that matters to you.

[HeavyMetal]

Looks like you've gotten a ton of good advice here.

With 27,000 rounds of ball ammo through this barrel I can't help but think it's as smooth as it's gonna get! As far as being worn out? Check your group sizes!

If they are in line with what you were getting with the ball ammo look for problems elsewhere!

Follow up on the die measurements for sure! Also think about using the same load with a good boolit such as the H&G 68 or a copy. If the leading goes away we can suspect the little groves on the tumble lube boolit aren't working with this particular load.

I'm going to sugget you do what all good drag racers do: make one change and test the load! If it's better keep that change, if not go back to the previous load!

Then change something else and test the load!

I will again go out on a limb and say that the boolit change suggested might just be the ticket for a short term solution! This will also head you in the right direction if correct!

[anachronism]

The most common 45 ACP problem I've found is too much taper crimp. When you crimp a cast bullet load, you can swage your bullet down in the case without realizing it. Autoloaders are the worst in this regard because of the taper crimp that's commonly used.

[MtGun44]

He said he was using NO crimp. I would put the failures to close down to
no taper crimp. In 25+ yrs of loading for 1911s and assisting newbies in our
IPSC club with loading reliable .45ACP ammo, the lack of taper crimp has been
the most common cause of feeding problems with H&G 68 type 200 swcs and
LRN 230s.

My Kimber Custom (Series One) has seen almost zero jacketed and has run
around 30,000 rds of 200 SWCs at 950 fps. Near zero leading. Needs cleaning
about every 2000 rds or so, little bore scrubbing required.

Reverse taper on the barrel is very weird and may be the whole deal here.
Bullet is sized to .452 at the throat, no matter what size it started at, then
hits the .454 portion - gas leakage, cutting and leading would seem very
likely. I tend to think this is an improperly manufactured barrel that may
not be suitable for lead bullets due to the reverse taper.

Bill

[ironmike17]

I loaded three boolits "as cast" and three boolits sized .452 and then pulled them down and measured them. The average diameter of the "as cast" boolits was .4528 with a spread of .452 to .454. After loading, the average diameter of the pulled boolits was .4503 with a spread of .450 to .452. The average diameter of the sized boolits was "spot on" at .452 with no spread. After loading, the average diameter of the pulled boolits was .450 with a spread of .449 to .452. Looks like the loaded boolits are .002 undersize. Several folks suggested that I might be under-sizing the boolits when I crimp. Looks like I am. I ordered a Lee factory crimp die tonight.

[windrider919]

Looking at your last post I think it is NOT the crimp but as others have noted, probably the expander ball. I have a 1973 colt series 70 that has shot over many thousands of lead bullets. I had the same problem as you way back then. The solution was a 'larger expander ball for lead bullets' so the case tension was less and hence did not size the bullets down during loading. I shoot more cast bullet rifle today but the same problem happens in rifles too. The dies size the brass for J-bullets very tightly, this is enough squeeze to size down the [lead] bullet as it enters the case. And undersize lead bullets lead, no matter what alloy. I did get better feeding and accuracy with a taper crimp die but I only use it to remove the case mouth bell, not 'taper the whole catrridge because then it would be down sizing the bullet.

Mike a sized case wall thickness then insert a bullet WITHOUT crimping and measure the OD. If the bullet is OK the OD will be bullet OD plus two wall thicknesses. If the bullet has been sized then it will measure under that number. That also tells you how much larger an expander ball you need to have made. I put a .457 ball in the drill press and sanded it down to solve my leading problem. Improved the accuracy too!

[straight-shooter]

I ordered a Lee factory crimp die tonight.

When I use "my" lee factory crimp die it sizes the bullets down to .4505 and maybe it's just my die doing this but I had to eliminate the factory crimp die and just use the third seating/crimp die to do the crimping. With just a light crimp from the 3rd die my bullets now measure correctly at .452 when pulled.

Just a heads up. Try your factory crimp die when you get it and pull the bullet and check it.

Strange thing is my Lee factory crimp die for my 38/357 works perfectly without swaging the bullet. Go figure.

[Bob Jones]

I can't offer a solution, just hope. I have shot many, many 1,000's of the Lee 230 grain round nose, lubed with Lee Alox, 3.9 grains of Clays, through my 1911's, including a Kimber ProCarry. Zero leading, the cleanest shooting lead bullets I've ever used. I can shoot 300 rounds in an afternoon and the barrel is clean and shiny.

If you're using straight Clays and not one of the variants, you're way over the load you should be using. Try 3.8-3.9 and see how it works. Also you said you weren't letting the lube dry. Don't know if that would do it but mine are always good and dry before use.

[38-55]

Ironmike,
Try going down with your powder charge.. Just out of curiosity when was the last time you changed your recoil spring? What weight is it ? Not that this would have any bearing on your leading problem but I'm just curious for my own edification.
This all may be just your barrel telling you it doesn't like clays.. Not being a smart ass or anything but some barrels just don't like certain bullet/lube/powder combinations..
Stay safe
Calvin

[ironmike17]

I run 16-pound (factory standard) recoil springs. I use Wolff chrome silicon recoil springs. Mike

[sniper7369]

I think you may want to experiment with your powder a bit. My 1911 leads like crazy with 200gr LSWC cast from straight WW alloy from a LEE mold with Lyman Orange Magic lube, sized to .452, over 6.0gr of Bullseye. However that same bullet over 6.0gr of Unique or 5.5gr of W231 doesn't lead at all.
I taper crimp to .470 at the case mouth with a COAL of 1.250, using mixed brass and Winchester large pistol primers. The gun has at least 25,000 rds through it and will hold groups you can cover with the mouth of a coffee mug at 25yds with the 231 and Unique loads.

[45-70 shoooter]

what are the options if your expander is to small and you are sizing the bullet down in the case

[jhrosier]

what are the options if your expander is to small and you are sizing the bullet down in the case

A Lyman "M" die will open the neck to perfection.
If you are using non-standard sized boolits, you may need a custom expander plug for it, a trivial job for anyone with access to a lathe.

Jack

[JDFuchs]

Ive had good luck with water droped .452 sized WW, 220g. With 4 to 4.5g unique. It cleaned out some of the leading form the load before that.

[Bass Ackward]

You could have a ton of issues. But your real problem is bullet hardness and the reverse taper bore.

In the 45, your pressure drops to 10,000 psi after 1" of bullet travel. To obturate ACWW, you need 17,000 psi. Irregardless of how perfect everything is or isn't when you start out, you are going to lead, and continue to lead. It is virtually hopeless. Very simply, you are losing seal.

You would be farther ahead to shoot pure lead. Pure lead will continue to obturate down to @ 7000 psi. It definitely won't be accurate because it is eventually going to lose it's grip on the rifling, but it would lead less. And it would be easier to clean out again.

In the end, you really need a new barrel.

[IcerUSA]

What does your fired cases inside dia. come out at ? What is the inside dia. after sizing ? Might have to back out your sizing die a little to get the right dia. so as not to deform the boolits .
Just a thought .

Keith

[Alex Hamilton]

I have put 27,000 rounds of FMJ through the tube of my Kimber 1911 over the last ten years. Went to lead to save money. Purchased a Lee 230 gr. LRN mold with micro bands for tumble lubing, a Lee pot and Alox. Figured out how to cast good boolits and shot 100 rounds over 4.8 grains of Clays. Got the worst leading I ever saw. Did the following, shooting 100 rounds at a time: bought a sizer in .452, stopped crimping, went to Unique 5.8 grains, then Unique 5.5 grains, and heat treated 100 rounds. After every set of 100 rounds, I had terrible leading. After each 100 rounds, I cleaned the barrel squeaky clean. I figured it must be the barrel with the high round count of FMJ, so I slugged it. The major diameter at the breech is .452 and the major diameter at the muzzle is .454. The minor diameter at the breech is .445 and the minor diameter at the muzzle is out of round, and measures .445 to .457. The chamber at the base of the cartridge is out of round and measures .483 to .485. The chamber at the riflings is .475. Eureka! Bad barrel! Just to make sure, I cleaned the barrel on my newer .45 and put 100 rounds through it, figuring that the newer barrel with only about 1,000 rounds of FMJ through it would shoot clean. These 100 rounds were sized to .452, tumble lubed with liquid Alox and seated to OAL of 1.265 with no crimp. It leaded almost as badly as the first barrel. I am obviously making some rookie mistake and no one at my club has a clue. Any help and advice would be appreciated.

Ironmike,
Poor bullet fit is the principal cause of leading and in particular gas cutting caused by the bulelts being too small for the bore. Basically, high pressure gas rips small particles of lead off the sides of the bullet and deposits them in the bore if front of the bullet. This small quantity of lead is then "ironed" into the bore as the bullet passes over it. The leading develops quickly even if the bullet is .001" smaller than the bore.

The cure is to slug the bore and size the bullets .001" over groove size, but it is better to size them the same size as the throat - the diameter immediately in front of the chamber mouth. That is not always possible, especially in auto handguns.

As your barrel is larger at the muzzle, to be absolutely frank, I doubt that you will ever get good accuracy with lead bullets, because whatever size they are they will be smaller than the groove as they travel down the barrel.

After 27,000 of FMJ ammunition the barrel of your Kimber must be at the end of its life, so why not replace it?

I hope this helps,

Alex

[gl1800]

When I use "my" lee factory crimp die it sizes the bullets down to .4505 and maybe it's just my die doing this but I had to eliminate the factory crimp die and just use the third seating/crimp die to do the crimping. With just a light crimp from the 3rd die my bullets now measure correctly at .452 when pulled.

Just a heads up. Try your factory crimp die when you get it and pull the bullet and check it.

Strange thing is my Lee factory crimp die for my 38/357 works perfectly without swaging the bullet. Go figure.

Same problem I had with my Kimber and G23. Stopped using the FCD and my leading problems went away.

Cheers,
Richard

[Alex Hamilton]

When I use "my" lee factory crimp die it sizes the bullets down to .4505 and maybe it's just my die doing this but I had to eliminate the factory crimp die and just use the third seating/crimp die to do the crimping. With just a light crimp from the 3rd die my bullets now measure correctly at .452 when pulled.

Just a heads up. Try your factory crimp die when you get it and pull the bullet and check it.

Strange thing is my Lee factory crimp die for my 38/357 works perfectly without swaging the bullet. Go figure.
WARNING! Brass springs back a little after sizing, but lead does not, so using a Factory Crimp Die by Lee actually reduces the neck tension and can cause erratic ignition and inaccuracy.

They work well on HBWC, which are seated deep in cases and supported by the inner taper at the bottom and held in case by a slight roll crimp on the top. This method is actually used to load factory ammunition using HBWCs. But for that to work on cases that have been reloaded many times, you have to trim them to ensure that the case mouths are square, otherwise the crimp will be greater on the "longer" side and accuracy will not be good.

Alex

[MtGun44]

All metals spring back when loaded and then unloaded.

Any metal that is stressed will flex linearly (basically linear means that
if you apply 10 lbs load it will deflect twice as much as with 5 lbs load) up until
it reaches it's yield point. Think about bending a piece of coat hanger wire.
I bends and springs back, bend it more (push harder) and eventually it will
spring back but SOME of the bending will be permanent (beyond yield point).
Past yield you get non-linear deflection - increase the load by 50% and get
more than 50% deflection.

Brass, lead, copper and all metals will follow this same behavior, just with
different stress levels to reach their yield stress.

Brass has a higher yield stress than lead alloy, so will spring back more, but
the lead alloy will still spring back - just not very much because the yield
stress of soft lead alloys is reached sooner (lower stress).

Your basic point that sizing the case and boolit in place can wind up with the
brass springing back more than the lead and reducing neck tension is
correct, but the lead does spring back - just likely less than the brass.

Bill

[DLCTEX]

Ironmike: Are you belling the case mouth? I am lead to think not since you do not crimp. The tumble lube boolits with their shallow and narrow bands are easily shaved down when seated if the case mouth isn't belled. The shavings are pushed into the grooves and become plated in your bore. The Lee powder through die or the Lyman M die are good for this use. I have never used an M die but it sounds as if it would work well for TL boolits. I do think the bore of your barrel being larger at the muzzel is going to be problematic. The chamber end is just going to be hard on brass, but not contribute to leading. Just my dos centavos. DALE

[prs]

Also consider the initial post: "I have put 27,000 rounds of FMJ through the tube of my Kimber 1911 over the last ten years. Went to lead to save money. Purchased a Lee 230 gr. LRN mold with micro bands for tumble lubing, a Lee pot and Alox. Figured out how to cast good boolits and shot 100 rounds over 4.8 grains of Clays. Got the worst leading I ever saw."

Lots of good info above, but when I scanned through it nobody else remarked about the copper already laid down upon or into the surface of the barrel. Copper and tin have an infinity for each other and a coppered barrel will "lead" quickly with lead/tin boolits. Get the copper out and try again with proper fitting boolits and charges.

prs

[Alex Hamilton]

All metals spring back when loaded and then unloaded.
Your basic point that sizing the case and boolit in place can wind up with the
brass springing back more than the lead and reducing neck tension is
correct, but the lead does spring back - just likely less than the brass.
Bill
Thank you for a more exact explanation, but, as you say, my point is that using Lee Factory Crimp die will do nothing for accuracy, except with HBWCs and similar deeply seated bullets. With the average Round Nose type bullet, neck tension is reduced to a point where tapping the cartridge on a table top base down will cause the bullet to slide down on top of the powder. I can imagine that under recoil in revolvers bullets might fall out of the cases, if this die is used.

Factory Crimp Die is for specialist applications in handguns and it should be used with caution and only where appropriate. In rifles factory crimp dies do not size the cases, but only apply a kind of "interrupted roll crimp" on case mouth. This is effective only with jacketed bullets that have a crimping canelure, but again does nothing for accuracy and reduces case life.

Alex