boolit weight variations and other ?s

[unclebill]

i have about 75 of these boolits
and am trying to get a load that shoots like you big boys manage.
i have a 50th ann.n.m. blackhawk .44
these boolits weigh in around 307 gr.
i am in the process of sorting them to get groups that weigh the same.
how close is close enough?



i tried 7.2 gr. of russian unique today at 25 yds. and the results were miserable.
i am pretty good at shooting off of bags so i know that isnt my problem.
i got leading at the chamber end of the bbl. in 25 shots.
not terrible but it's there.
do i HAVE to use G.C.'s at these velocities?

these boolits at the bottom band are right around .434.(not where the G.C. goes)
do i need to buy a sizer?


the powders i have are
russian unique
9mm NATO powder similar to Accurate#7
Trail boss
and a little bit of
Greendot

due to the building slump here i am unemployed so moneys really tight.
i hope one of these powders will work.
thank you for your time once again.
bill
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/billhedges/zsmithwesson27-2-15.jpg

[jhalcott]

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/15e296c61415e831fecfe8fddcc1dc92-414.html
How fast and how hard are these bullets.? They just MAY be to hard for the load you are using.

[unclebill]

the bullets are pretty soft .
i can dent them with my thumbnail.

965 fps.

[unclebill]

miserable was an understatement.
i couldnt get all six shots on a paper plate @ 25 yds.!

[unclebill]

my two best groups @ 25 yds.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/billhedges/zsmithwesson27-2097-1.jpg

[unclebill]

i am trying to be methodical.

size these bullets?

they take considerable force to get through the cylinder

[HeavyMetal]

You should size these boolits until they require a firm, but not hernia rated, push through the cylinder throats!

Then you should put some gas checks on a few and see if the problem goes away. I think this would be a better boolit if it was a plain base but it is what it is.

[9.3X62AL]

+1 to the previous post.

Green Dot does some good work in the 44 Magnum and 44 Special. Start at 6.0 grains and work up in 0.5 grain increments. That 300 grain boolit doesn't need to go 1500 FPS to make venison.

A 1% weight variation is probably hypercritical in a revolver boolit.

I would DEFINITELY try a few gas checks before shooting a whole lot more of these boolits.

[unclebill]

it is taking a couple of firm taps with a hammer and a dowel to get them through the cylinder.

[unclebill]

i was getting much better groups and no leading with bulk, no G.C. 200gr. boolits (that i was told were way too light for this caliber) for $63 per 1000 delivered.
after factoring buying a sizer and lube and gas checks
i am a little confused as to how i am going to be saving money by doing this.
i dont hunt but i was told of the great groups possible with heavier boolits.

[unclebill]

i am just a bit discouraged.
sorry for the whining.

[Linstrum]

Hmm, I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, have you slugged your bore and throat to check see if the throat diameter is smaller or larger than the barrel groove diameter? Sounds like the cylinder throat could be smaller in diameter than the barrel bore diameter. This is a common enough problem so that you need to check for it in your gun if you haven't already done so.

If the boolits are larger in diameter than the throat the throat will size your bullets when they are fired and if the throat diameter is smaller than the barrel bore diameter you never will get good accuracy no matter what you do until the throats are reamed to the correct size.

If your cylinder throats are okay then your troubles lie elsewhere.

Far too many replica black powder cap and ball revolvers also have the same problem, my Traditions replica 1858 Remington 44 shoots a pattern of about SIX FEET spread at 25 feet! Piece of junk, safest place to be is directly in front of the gun.


rl437

[Lloyd Smale]

If its a gas checked design use a gas check! Ive had absolutely no luck with leaving them off of bullets. The first thing i would do is gas check them and size them to 431. Use a convetional lube and not a tumble lube. I think you will find that your accuaracy improves by doing it. Second is that if thats the lee mold which it looks like you are going to have to push that bullet harder to get it to shoot small groups. you dont really list any powders that are good for doing that. If you dont want to buy more powder, at least try bumping up your load to about 9 grains of the russian unique. Better though would be to buy yourself a can of 2400 or aa9 and get the velocity up to about 1100 fps. Even more is better if you can handle the recoil. Bottom line is i havent had great success with that bullet. It can be made to shoot but takes some work. I did shoot the first bear i ever shot with a handgun with that bullet and it hits like a hammer though so it may be worth fooling with in your gun. One other bit of warning with that bullet is that at least in my rugers you had to seat it in the deap crimp grove and that puts alot of bullet in the case. Some suggested loads ive seen for that weight of bullet will cause excessive pressures in my gun.

[Bass Ackward]

i am just a bit discouraged.
sorry for the whining.


Bill,

Look at this bullet design. Without a GC, it is forward or nose heavy. That means that it is going to be harder to stabilize at lower velocities where a light bullet would probably do better.

Want to find out if I am correct? Load six with the same load. Drill a small hollow point in the nose of each bullet. It doesn't have to be perfectly center for this test. They don't all have to be exactly the same depth. Just eye ball it as close as you can and shoot them again. What that is going to do is take weight off the nose of the bullet and push the center of balance toward the rear where it will be easier to stabilize them.

If I am correct, your groups should shrink by 50% or more. If it does then you have your answer and you will have to speed them up. If they don't do better, then I am all wet and listen to someone else. :grin:

This is a good test to try on any load if you want to know if you are launching them correctly.

[gunsbrad]

the lee push through sizer is very cheap and you can pan lube them if money is an issue. How are you lubing them, and with what kind of lube?

Brad

[unclebill]

LINSTRUM
i just slugged them
bore .430
cylinder throat .431

LLOYD
i will do that when money permits
BASS
i believe you guys!


i have another option
a member here is willing to pour me bullets

i can get a bunch more of these.
245gr.
they are right at .431

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/billhedges/zsmithwesson27-2-16.jpg

p.s. i hate tumble lubing.
if i can pan lube that would be great!

thank you for your time gentlemen!
bill

[unclebill]

the lee push through sizer is very cheap and you can pan lube them if money is an issue. How are you lubing them, and with what kind of lube?

Brad

i have a quart of XLOX i just dont like that smelly,sticky stuff.
i made some 35% veg. oil 65% beeswax lube and have been using it.

[unclebill]

i have been trying to give pertinent information so you experienced boolit men will have something to go on.

[44man]

There goes Lloyd again, stealing my thunder! [smilie=1: He is right except that the boolit will shoot REAL good. It needs the gas check and has to be shot harder and faster. I use 21.5 gr's of 296 but 2400 should also do it with the right load. My boolit is doing a little over 1320 fps. My boolits run 20 to 22 BHN. Water dropped WW's or a harder alloy also water dropped.
Your bore dimensions sound great and anything from .430 to .432 should shoot as long as you can chamber the loads. I would also try .431.
I know you are out of work and might have to wait to get the boolit shooting so just shoot the 429421 for the time being. I think you said you had that mold.
Price of gas checks are nothing but stupid. I don't know why Lee doesn't offer the boolit in a PB, boolits don't need a check in revolvers.
I quit making my molds for a gas check boolit because they are easier to make and I don't have to buy the things. :drinks:
I also see vertical impacts on your targets. Watch the rear bag, different down pressures with the butt will do that. So will different grip holds. Always adjust the front bag to get on target. Try to maintain the same pressure on the rear. The butt puts a lot of down force when fired, anything you do to change it will string shots.
OH, I also seat in the lower groove. It will reduce pressure.
The next thing that will throw you off is inconsistant neck tension. If your boolits are too soft you will also size them when seating. They will also mash if driven hard. I have found soft, pointed boolits shortened to almost a wad cutter because of nose slump. Heavy loads of fast powders with soft boolits is worse on them. Too fast of a pressure rise.
The dies you use will make or break accuracy REAL fast too. Don't for a second believe that any dies will load boolits that shoot the same.
Welcome to the nut house, just don't give up.

No Bass, I do NOT believe in obturation and consider it the worst theory ever devised. Even a Minie' ball in a musket will spray boolits if too loose. A 4' X 4' target can missed at 50 yd's with the things. Make the ball a real snug fit to the rifling and it will clang steel at 200 meters.
Fit the boolit, make it hard to take the rifling and maintain it's original shape all the way to the target. I hate putty balls!

[Bass Ackward]

No Bass, I do NOT believe in obturation and consider it the worst theory ever devised. Even a Minie' ball in a musket will spray boolits if too loose. A 4' X 4' target can missed at 50 yd's with the things. Make the ball a real snug fit to the rifling and it will clang steel at 200 meters.
Fit the boolit, make it hard to take the rifling and maintain it's original shape all the way to the target. I hate putty balls!


Jim, I got bad news for ya fella.

I don't care how close you come. If your bullets are less of a diameter than the throats, you are having to obturate to seal. And slug up they will, once you put the right amount of pressure behind them.

Just face the music and bite the bullet on this. I'm callin it. You are an obturator just like most others. There ain't no cutoff for how much you need to expand, ........... only that you do.

You obturator you.

:bigsmyl2:

[unclebill]

44man
thanks for the stringing tip.
i am using DILLON dies.
i am going to focus on these wadcutters for now.
since i dont hunt anyway .
the 310's are nice but i dont really need em!
i am going to load up some right now.
:mrgreen:

[unclebill]

If its a gas checked design use a gas check! Ive had absolutely no luck with leaving them off of bullets. The first thing i would do is gas check them and size them to 431. Use a convetional lube and not a tumble lube. I think you will find that your accuaracy improves by doing it. Second is that if thats the lee mold which it looks like you are going to have to push that bullet harder to get it to shoot small groups. you dont really list any powders that are good for doing that. If you dont want to buy more powder, at least try bumping up your load to about 9 grains of the russian unique. Better though would be to buy yourself a can of 2400 or aa9 and get the velocity up to about 1100 fps. Even more is better if you can handle the recoil. Bottom line is i havent had great success with that bullet. It can be made to shoot but takes some work. I did shoot the first bear i ever shot with a handgun with that bullet and it hits like a hammer though so it may be worth fooling with in your gun. One other bit of warning with that bullet is that at least in my rugers you had to seat it in the deap crimp grove and that puts alot of bullet in the case. Some suggested loads ive seen for that weight of bullet will cause excessive pressures in my gun.
hey guys
can i just grind the gas check part of that boolit mold off?
i dont want it .
i am just a paper puncher so i see no need for a g.c. boolit
besides those things cost too much!

[44man]

Bill, yes you can but DON'T try to grind aluminum. It needs cut with a reamer or other tool. Care must be used to keep it perfect. There should be someone here that can do it for you.

Bass, NO way I am expanding boolits. They are a tight fit through throats, some would need pounded through.
The only thing I obturate is my hat when I stuff it on my head!!!! :bigsmyl2:

[Bob Krack]

hey guys
can i just grind the gas check part of that boolit mold off?
i dont want it .
i am just a paper puncher so i see no need for a g.c. boolit
besides those things cost too much!

Bill,

I agree, just don't grind the base of the boolits off. The amount of work involved is humongous! AND you will have terrible problems with inconsistent weights.
I am nearly finished modifying a Lee C432-240-SWC which currently casts at around 247GR. I have shortened the mould and am in the process of enlarging the remaining gas check area to the .432 Diameter. I expect the final weight to be right at 240 GR. I will pay the freight for you to send them back to me and replace them with the newer ones I am working on now.

Vic

[unclebill]

saint vic!

[unclebill]

if i ever decide to go boar hunting .
i will use a gas check.
paper punching?
forget it!

[9.3X62AL]

The Great Obturator!

[TCLouis]

To shoot one load and call something a failure is FAR from where you need to be.

Sometimes one hits the magic accuracy point with the first loading, but NOT often. I have twice since I started loading in 1966.

Fortunately one of those was my first loading of this boolit in my SRH. It is the most accurate loading I have ever shot in that SRH or any other 44 Mag. I have not benched it out of my SBH, but it is a handfull shooting it offhand.

Use the powder company web sites to find the Min/Max loads for each powder and cover each in an increasing loading. My boolits were pretty soft, but sure did work with a loading of a powder you did not list. I bet one of your powders will provide reasonable accuracy.

Has anyone used boolits out of the standard Lee 6 cavity mold for this boolit? I have the old single cavity mold so it mostly collects dust no matter how good it shoots.

Additional information added below

Oh I shoulda read all of the posts before I posted my response.

! ! ! My BAD ! ! !

This part still holds true:
To shoot one load and call something a failure is FAR from where you need to be.

Sometimes one hits the magic accuracy point with the first loading, but NOT often. I have twice since I started loading in 1966.

That said, IF you are only punching holes in paper, then go to the lighter boolit your friend offered. Saves him boolit metal, and saves you a bunch on recoil. Heck that 245 grain Lee boolit with medium loads gets to be fun enough to shoot all afternoon.

To me shooting off bags on both ends of the revolver makes technique all the more important. Recoils forces act on both the barrel/gun , but then also cause a reaction when the hand grip impacts the bag underneath the grip.

By the way a good sized flap of inner tube over the front bag will significantly reduce some nasty surprises.

At least that is what I have "been told".

[unclebill]

i have only been resting the front of the revolver on a bag.

[unclebill]

QUOTE; To shoot one load and call something a failure is FAR from where you need to be.
;UNQUOTE

i am not giving up on this boolit but i am not going to pursue anything that costs money.

i refuse to buy gas checks.
i am not buying anymore odds and ends .
the only reason i shoot lead is to save cash.
i dont even want to buy a $14 sizer.

ive got powder,primers and cases as well as bulk boolits that cost $63 per 1000 delivered.
they shoot ok
not great but ok.
if i can find other cheap boolits to try thats great.
i have spent approximately 10.000 dollars on this hobby and i am putting the brakes on dumping money into it for at least the rest of the winter.

[Bass Ackward]

I would say that there is no sin in a break. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees until the fog clears. I still believe the hollow pointing trick is of great value in what it teaches. Once stabilization is understood, and adjustments made to our thought processes, success in the form of marginal stabilization comes fairly easily from that point on. We learn to " correct " with steps that actually make a difference.

Otherwise, we go through life as trial and error types that can get very expensive in equipment and powders. Not to mention frustrating. :grin:

[unclebill]

sorry if i came across as frothing at the mouth there.:mrgreen:

i forgot to mention.
with those 10.000 bucks ive got some beautiful firearms and a dedicated 3 press reloading room.

[Lloyd Smale]

lets see. bass is right EVERY bullet bumps up to some degree even a jacketed bullet. In my opnion one of the most improtant things you can do for accuracy in a sixgun is to make that bumping up as minor as you can. First to do this you need a gun that is dimentioned properly and every gun in my house is! If its not its either fixed or sold. Casting soft to put a bandaid on a poor gun is a lesson in frustration. You will never get totaly good results.

I would never grind off the gas check area on a mold. Ive tried shortening probably a dozen bullets doing that in my life and in EVERY case the mold has ended up in the garbage can. You will change everything about the way that bullet flys. For the most part the molds i tried it on were molds that were duds to start with. In EVERY case it did nothing but make them worse. Now if i get a dud design ill do one of two things. Ill either sell it or stick it in the dud mold box and move on.

[unclebill]

fellas
i am in the process of finding the cylinder and bore dimensions of my six revolvers so i have an idea of what i am dealing with.
i dont have a micrometer.
all ive got is a .000 caliper
is that good enough?
i dont know any casters/reloaders around here so i have to pester you gentlemen.
i have only been involved with my gun hobby for three years and all i know is what i read.
there are casters /reloaders at the gun clubs i am a member of .
but they are not interested in sharing the knowledge they have.

[unclebill]

this is what i have to work with
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/billhedges/zsmithwesson27-2014-4.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/billhedges/zsmithwesson27-2013-5.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/billhedges/zdillon002.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/billhedges/aaaaaaaabbbbbbbbbbbb002.jpg

[44man]

And a mighty fine camera to boot. Nice pictures.
Yes the Lee boolit can be shortened but I don't think it will shoot as good. I would prefer to just open the gas check portion.
The big problem with leaving the check off is the loss of the drive band, leaving you with a long boolit with too short of a drive area. Tricky to get to shoot. It makes a mismatch to the twist and finding the exact velocity will be a pain.

I agree that all bullets/boolits suffer some kind of change from the pressure but as long as they fit good, they will set back a tad instead of expanding because the throats are controlling that.
Now if they are soft and under high pressure, damage at the gap and forcing cone will be too great for accuracy. The nose stops and the back end keeps going. That is why the gap should be small and the start of the cone should be no larger then the throats and it is not always the case.
I still remember the old .38's with soft wad cutters that spit lead out of the gap and coated the outside of the gun, let alone what happened in the bore to make the rifling fill to a smoothbore. And THAT was such low pressure it does not compare to what we do now.
We have learned so much about getting accuracy and power from revolvers, why revert to obsolete loading?

[44man]

fellas
i am in the process of finding the cylinder and bore dimensions of my six revolvers so i have an idea of what i am dealing with.
i dont have a micrometer.
all ive got is a .000 caliper
is that good enough?
i dont know any casters/reloaders around here so i have to pester you gentlemen.
i have only been involved with my gun hobby for three years and all i know is what i read.
there are casters /reloaders at the gun clubs i am a member of .
but they are not interested in sharing the knowledge they have.
OOPS, I missed that. Not really, you just can't read the caliper close enough. You need to read to .0001". Enco sells one for $15, number 600-0011. From there, the sky's the limit.

[unclebill]

OOPS, I missed that. Not really, you just can't read the caliper close enough. You need to read to .0001". Enco sells one for $15, number 600-0011. From there, the sky's the limit.

i already went back on my word and bought that micrometer.:confused::mrgreen::-?:(:-D

[unclebill]

update;
those ENCO guys are a breath of fresh air.
1 hour after placing my order i had a tracking number!

[unclebill]

ok
i am trying to teach myself how to read this micrometer.
it looks like my ruger .44 has a bore of .4303