A couple of old Ideal molds

[cabezaverde]

I picked up a couple of old Ideal molds in a trade recently. They are single cavity, one for an oversized .30, the other a .32.

These molds have the handles permanently attached. Any idea how old they are? Do they have any collector value, or should I just keep them for a future use?

[floodgate]

cabezaverde:

The old, fixed block Ideal moulds were made from about 1884, when Barlow founded the company, through about 1926-7, shortly after the Lyman Gun Sight Co. acquired the Ideal line. What are the stampings on the two moulds? Here are a couple of guidelines to age:

1. Handles with end-caps on the outer end are very early; pre-1890 or so.

2. Prior to about 1897, the moulds were stamped with either the factory cartridge name (e.g. ".44 WCF" for the standard .44-40 design, now 42798/427098) or diameter+weight (for non-factory designs). The modern "caliber+cherry number" designations started to be applied in 1896-7, initially for the most popular designs, with some lag for the less common ones.

3. After about 1902, the moulds had an added alignment peg and socket in the mating faces of the blocks, and a set-screw in the outer face of the LH block to lock the sprue-plate pivot screw.

Lyman no doubt inherited a number of the older moulds and sold them off through the 1920's, but it is not certain that they actually made any of the old-style moulds. The stamping "IDEAL" was used up until about 1964; thereafter the marking was changed to "LYMAN".

All of the older fixed-block moulds have some collector value, but the end-capped handle, cylindrical (some of these were one-piece moulds), separate soft-tip, adjustable "Perfection", multi-cavity, and hollow-base and -point ones are of most collector interest.

Read me ALL the stampings on your moulds (and check the above three indicators) and I can give further details. Photos will help. Post here AND PM me, since I don't always catch all the posts every day.

Floodgate

[cabezaverde]

Thanks for your input Floodgate.

I got the molds out.

The first is the .32. Makes a RN gas check bullet. Marked 321317 on one side, Ideal Mfg. New Haven, CT USA on the other. No Caps on the handle, has the screw for the sprue lock.

The other is a 303284. Long gas check bullet. Marked the same, configuration the same.

I was mistaken about having picked them up in a trade, as they had the price tag on them from a local shop, so I am sure I bought them.

[mooman76]

I have an old Ideal that I have no idea how old it is. It doesn't have a stop screw for the sprew. I was thinking of adding one myself.

[crowbeaner]

The first is for a 32 Win Special; the second is for that Italian 7.35 Terni cartridge.

[floodgate]

cabezaverde:

Thanks for the info. No. 321317 is for the .32 Remington Automatic, approx. 160 grs.; the Handbook says, in part: "Use Ideal No. 2 metal or one part tin to ten of lead; bullets should fit tight, shell crimped slightly in front groove. Powder charge is 25 grains' weight 'Lightning'....This bullet, with above charges, is O. K. for 8mm. Price.....Special List, $1.50...Gas Check Cups...per thousand...$1.10". Made 1907 - 1978, the last few years as a jobber's special order item.

I think you either misread the other or it was stamped too lightly; it is #308284, "For .30 Krag Rifles. It should be made of Ideal [No. 2] alloy, and will weigh about 207 grains with the Ideal gas check on. It was designed especially for the Krag Rifle. Proper charge is from 22 to 23 grains' weight of the Hercules 'Lightning' powder, or 25.4 grains' weight of Du Pont Military No. 21. It is all right for 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards ranges, skirmish runs and rapid fire. Our patent metal gas check cup [John Barlow's Patent No. 847,149, March 12, 1907, shows the serrated, domed check applied to this same bullet] prevents fusion and permits the use of the above charges of high power powder. This bullet is being used extensively by the military shooters throughout the country instead of the metal jacketed bullets. The wear of the rifle barrel is reduced to a minimum if this bullet is used in place of the metal covered [one]. The accuracy is equal to the regular service ammunition at above ranges, and the saving in cost is 50 per cent. Ideal [No. 1, precursor of the no. 45; or the No. 2 "Armory" model] Lubricator and Sizer is recommended for sizing, lubricating and affixing the cups." Mould, $1.50; gas checks $1.00/M. Made 1906 to date, in later years re-designated as #311284, and showing a more rounded profile as opposed to the original truncated cone; weight presently listed (2007) as 210 grs.

Both moulds would have been made some time between the dates of introduction above and - most likely - the end of Marlim/Ideal production, December 1915

Sorry to run on so, but I thought this background would be of some interest to others, too.

Floodgate

[bruce drake]

Oh come on people, quit trying to tell him the wrong stuff.

These old molds aren't worth anything at all! In fact, you need special disposal instructions for them since they've handled dangerous lead particles in the past. Wrap them in plastic wrap to ensure no airborne lead particles escape into the atmosphere and and I will send you my mailing address by private e-mail to ensure that those evil molds are shipped to the proper disposal facility that is convieniently close to driving distance from my house.

I'll let everyone on the board know when I receive these molds so that everyone can breathe safely knowing these hazards to life and limb are properly disposed of.

Just because I've got a 32 Spl Winchester and several 30 cal rifles has nothing to do with my volunteering to save Cabezaverde from those molds ;)

Bruce

[cabezaverde]

Thanks Floodgate, I appreciate your time.

Bruce Drake, here we have never met, and you are offering to be helpful. That is what I love about this board.

[bruce drake]

Cabezaverde,

Since you live in upstate New York.....I'll let you drive those molds to Watertown and deliver them to my wife so that we can ensure that the US Postal System doesn't lose them ;)

Ain't that what a Buddy is for!

Bruce

[Bret4207]

You guys get to Watertown and I'll get Dano67 and Old Bob and we'll have a cup o'joe and swap lies.

[crowbeaner]

I can be there in an hour; I just have to come up with a BELIEVABLE excuse for SWMBO.

[bruce drake]

You'll have to wait for a couple of more months for me but go ahead and start the monthly coffees. December at Shorty's sound fine. Maybe we can start the East Coast version of Buckshot's Tuesday Cast bullet matches.

Oh, and I still hold the offer out to take those "out-moded" and "lead-impregnated" molds of your hands

Bruce

[Bret4207]

Shortys would be great. Crowbeaner needs an excuse? I'll get a Warrant!