Problem with Canik TP9 SFX and cast.

[marek313]

I recently purchased Canik TP9 SFX and while it shoots great groups with FMJs it doesnt work so well with cast. I'm using Lee 356-125-2R PCed around 14BHN sized to .356, COL-1.090max. I like to have variety of powders on hand so I tried loads with TiteGroup, HP38, HS6, PowerPistol, AutoComp, Unique, WSF using various loads. I'm still getting the same problem no matter what I do.

My rounds randomly fail to completely chamber which leaves slide out of battery. Any attempt to smack slide forward only seems to jam current round even more. At this point round has to be ejected with some force I might add. At first I didnt notice any obstructions but last night I went to the range and i finally caught few rounds that had long strips of lead on the nose and one round spit out complete lead ring which I'm assuming is the cause of those jams.

Now the question becomes whats the cause ? Is it the gun or is it my ammo?

I never had any leading issues with my reloads but to make sure you have to check everything right. So i looked and measured and checked everything and pulled bullets apart etc and here is where I'm at.

I'm not shaving lead ring when seating my bullets as my brass is properly belled
I'm not swaging my bullets when crimping. I do crimp only enough to remove any bell on separate FCD
Changing powder or load doesnt make any difference.
Even when it works, its not that accurate.

But here is the bottom line. Every time I shot I also had my full size Sig P320 with me and all ammo worked fine in my sig and was accurate too with no leading or anything. Thats why I dont think its my ammo.

I think its the gun. Specifically lack of freebore in that barrel. I have to seat my projectiles short at 1.09max or they cut into rifling. I ran into other peoples posts with similar issue and lack of or undersized feeebore looks like it can shave rings off a bullet. I never knew this before but it does make sense to me now. Most guns are designed to shoot FMJs so this is not an issue there.

So I'm done messing with different powders until I get this issue resolved. I think I'm going to look for someone (I think Doug or someone here does it well) to ream the throat on this barrel and cut more of a freebore in that chamber. I wish I could get Sig to cut one of their barrels to fit that Canik. Love my p320 and I'm yet to find ammo that wont run in it. Was hoping for similar experiance from Canik but this might need some work before it works well with cast.

What do you think?

[John McCorkle]

I have that same bullet and live it in my Glock and shield. Have you tried the sharpie meathod Durning plunk testing? Try seating out further and see where you bump up against the chamber and back off...paint the end of the bullet and case with black sharpie and it should tell you where you are touching chamber and rifling.

Of course it could be the ole "your gun just doesn't like that bullet" issue.

Have you slugged the bore? Most of my 9mm need .357 or .358 to fit correctly. If you are pc'ing you wouldn't see the leading as much for an under sized bullet as if it were plain lubed. Pound a soft lead sinker weight through and see what it mics out to be

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[gnostic]

I'm sure they're out there, but I've never seen a 9mm that would shoot a bullet smaller than .358. When I sized to .356, I leaded the barrel and had the issues you describe.

[marek313]

I'm shooting .357 out of my P320 so i thought maybe they would work but they dont fit in this Canik. I used marker method as described. Thats why I went down to .356 and I have to seat them short too @ 1.090max or they hit rifling. Everything in this throat feel tight. If I could fit .358 I would but not without reaming the whole chamber.

[gwpercle]

The chamber probably has little to no throat. Seat them deeper , a little at a time , untill they will fully chamber...use the plunk test and your pistols chamber as a gauge.
That Lee 356 - 125 - 2R gave me the same problems... by deep seating the bullet a bit I cured it but a better solution is the Lee 356 -120 - TC , the truncated cone design works better in my 9mm's .
Only one 9mm , A WWII era Walther P38, didn't have any trouble with the Lee 2R nose profile , the other 3 didn't like that boolit, unless deep seated .
I size all mine .357 with no leading and good accuracy.
Gary

[Loudy13]

I have this same pistol and have had no issues with any of the 9mm cast I have run through it from .357-.358. @1.110 OAL, Now it did take some time and testing with adjustment to my FCD to pass the plink test but it rocks feeds great and I am getting good accuracy. I am using Mihec molds 135gr and 147gr so maybe it is the profile of the lee bullet that is messing with you.

[marek313]

I have this same pistol and have had no issues with any of the 9mm cast I have run through it from .357-.358. @1.110 OAL, Now it did take some time and testing with adjustment to my FCD to pass the plink test but it rocks feeds great and I am getting good accuracy. I am using Mihec molds 135gr and 147gr so maybe it is the profile of the lee bullet that is messing with you.

Must be the bullet profile because I run .3575 @ 1.110 in my Sig P320 with great results but there is no way that round would fit in my Canik. I tried that already. Maybe I should try different bullet profile before I start reaming anything that cant be undone.
Good to know that others can get .357 to fit in their Caniks. Thanx

[John McCorkle]

The chamber probably has little to no throat. Seat them deeper , a little at a time , untill they will fully chamber...use the plunk test and your pistols chamber as a gauge.
That Lee 356 - 125 - 2R gave me the same problems... by deep seating the bullet a bit I cured it but a better solution is the Lee 356 -120 - TC , the truncated cone design works better in my 9mm's .
Only one 9mm , A WWII era Walther P38, didn't have any trouble with the Lee 2R nose profile , the other 3 didn't like that boolit, unless deep seated .
I size all mine .357 with no leading and good accuracy.
GaryAgree with you on the Lee 356 120 tc...awesome profile have shot thousands of them.

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[GhostHawk]

I'm with Gnostic. I had to go to .38/.357 bullet cast to .359 to stop keyholing in 2 of my 9mm's. My Hipoint Carbine in 9mm will however eat anything with no issues.

I really like the Lee .358 125 gr round front flat nose in my 9's. I mostly cast roughly 50% COWW and 50% range scrap with 1% tin/pewter added. Comes out between .359 and .360. No chambering issues, no more keyholing, no problems. The .356 lost its handles to my last new 6 cavity mold. 200 gr for .44mag/.444marlin.

Had not been used in 2 years, just could not justify keeping it active.

[GooseGestapo]

Sort brass by manufacturer/headstamp.
Also, make sure that the rounds pass the “plunk” test. Some barrels have very short throats and require seating the bullets deeper.

Some brands of brass are thicker than others.

[gnostic]

I'm shooting .357 out of my P320 so i thought maybe they would work but they dont fit in this Canik. I used marker method as described. Thats why I went down to .356 and I have to seat them short too @ 1.090max or they hit rifling. Everything in this throat feel tight. If I could fit .358 I would but not without reaming the whole chamber.

I'm having the same issue, OAL with the Lyman Devastator and my CZ75B. The way it's chambered, the bullet must be seated deeper than I'm comfortable with. You might want to try the 120 grain Lee TC bullet, the Canik may not like the round nosed bullets.

[marek313]

I'm having the same issue, OAL with the Lyman Devastator and my CZ75B. The way it's chambered, the bullet must be seated deeper than I'm comfortable with. You might want to try the 120 grain Lee TC bullet, the Canik may not like the round nosed bullets.

I just ordered Lee 356-120-TC so It will be here tomorrow. I still think that this barrel could use throat reaming so I PMed Doug for more info. I would really like to get that throat reamed to .358 so I can shoot the same ammo as my P320. I think that should help with accuracy too.

[gnostic]

I just ordered Lee 356-120-TC so It will be here tomorrow. I still think that this barrel could use throat reaming so I PMed Doug for more info. I would really like to get that throat reamed to .358 so I can shoot the same ammo as my P320. I think that should help with accuracy too.

You're probably right about reaming the throat. The Lee 120 grain drop from the mold at .358 and go through my 9mm guns, like grease through a goose. I tumble lube them and they shoot great in my 357's and 38 spl revolvers...

[joebaja]

My TP9 SF runs the Lee 120 TCs fine, but even has to seat them a little deeper than I liked, and accuracy has been kind of so-so. The Mihec 147s (MP 359 147) give me excellent accuracy, but I do have to seat them to 1.085 for good function. The Accurate 36-139I also runs great at 1.10. You're spot on about the lack of free bore in these. But since I favor heavy boolits seated deep, it hasn't an issue for me. BTW, I had the exact same issue with the Lee 125s, but mine were HiTek coated instead of PC. They would pass the Lyman case gauge all day, but wouldn't plunk well. My Canik T-120 eats 'em like candy, but the TP9 seems to be a pickier eater.

[marek313]

I think I'm going to send it to Doug. I dont think you can beat this deal for $60 shipped. Beats trying to work around this problem by deep seating bullets. From my understanding this should also improve accuracy.

From Dougs PM I received yesterday:
"I offer a throat, crown & polish package that gets the barrel throated with enough .357" freebore in front of the chamber to plunk your handloads seated out ever how long you want to seat them, it gets the barrel crowned with a precision cut 20° crown, and any polishing, radiusing, blending or smoothing that may be needed at the feed ramp.

The package runs $60 on standard barrels (stainless and blued steel) and $90 on salt bath hardened barrels (Glock, poly framed Springfield, S&W M&P, Shield, basically any of the flat black/dark gray matte finishes) and has free insured return shipping."

[joebaja]

Can't go wrong there. Doug took care of the throat on my Sar K2 and I couldn't be happier with it. If wasn't so fond of the Mihec 147s I'd definitely send him the barrel of my TP9, just to give me more options.

[Mcliff1971]

I recently picked up a Canik TP9SFX and i am runnin missouri bullets 115g parabellum with hi-tek coating on top of 4.4g of Shooters World Clean Shot and it shoots and cycles without issue

[Landshark9025]

I may have missed it, but I didn't see a mention of you slugging your bore? I have the TP9SFX as well and was surprised to see it slugged at .357. My other pistols (Glock 34 and HK VP9) are all .355. With bullets sized to .358, I have to seat them much deeper. Somewhat unfortunate.

I tried using Hi-Tek coating and no matter what I did- it leaded badly.

Bullets that were powder coated and sized to .357 for use in other pistols leaded as well. (no surprise)

My alloy is around 95/3/2

I have had great success with this mold from Arsenal molds- http://arsenalmolds.com/bullet-molds?product_id=150&limit=99999999999 however, I needed to seat it to 1.050 to adequately pass the plunk test. Seated to 1.075 would "kind of" pass the plunk test, but some would jamb the slide and not want to hand eject. It would cycle fine by hand, but while shooting would jamb up.

I've also picked up a 147g mold from Mi-hec and it shot really well yesterday.

If it was me (and it kind of is:-D ) I would:

Slug the bore
Size to about .001 - .0015 over groove diameter
Do a complete load workup with either TiteGroup or HP-38. I've had good success with both. Definitely start at the low end.


THEN, I'd look to having the barrel cut. That is a match grade barrel and shoots really well as is with a 2.5" group guarantee at 25 yards at 60,000 rounds.

If you do have Dougguy cut it, then I'd do some accuracy testing- even if you have to use a couple of type of jacketed first. I know he does good work, and if you can prove an increase in accuracy before and after, you'll be doing him a service.

I'd bet money that sized to .358, seated to where they pass the plunk test and a load work up starting at minimum (or maybe .1g below, even) of HP-38 will get you what you want.

[Cherokee]

I recommend DougGuy - great work, quick turnaround. Works for me !!

[DougGuy]

I think I'm going to send it to Doug. I dont think you can beat this deal for $60 shipped. Beats trying to work around this problem by deep seating bullets. From my understanding this should also improve accuracy.

From Dougs PM I received yesterday:
"I offer a throat, crown & polish package that gets the barrel throated with enough .357" freebore in front of the chamber to plunk your handloads seated out ever how long you want to seat them, it gets the barrel crowned with a precision cut 20° crown, and any polishing, radiusing, blending or smoothing that may be needed at the feed ramp

I had JUST received a brand new Manson 9mm throating reamer that I had Dave modify from a solid nose rifle throater to a live pilot pistol throater. The rifle throater is ground larger than a 9mm pistol throater so it actually cuts .358+" so this Canik barrel actually has a tapered freebore that will allow a .358" boolit about .080" into the freebore, and a .357" probably a good .200" into the freebore where the leade ins start. We may be getting a range report from the OP soon to update this thread. The new reamer worked out really good on a couple of barrels already in the short time I have had it.

[marek313]

After Doug put his magic touch I can now chamber Lee 356-125-2R @ .357-1.120 which i wasnt able to do before. With 4.2 gr of HP38 this gun finally shoots lead as well as FMJs. I'm not a bullseye shooters but i was all over paper before and now I'm putting fist size groups at 7yrds and can pretty consistently shoot 8" plate at 20yards. I miss but its because of me this time. I can tell gun shoots great now. Thank you again Doug.

On the other hand I did order Lee 356-120-TC which drops undersized for me at around .355-.356 and even after PC sized to .357 still didnt shoot as well as 125-2R which I prefer. Bottom line is if your gun doesnt have a proper throat it will never shoot lead accurately. Stop chasing different molds and have Doug throat ream your barrel. Fixed it for me in this Canik.

[Landshark9025]

Ok, Marek and Doug, help me out here. What advantage does having the throat cut vs seating the bullet .020 deeper? I'm able to seat both of the bullets I referenced earlier deep enough to pass the plunk test and still have what I would consider the leading edge of the driving band outside of the case mouth.

Now, if the 356-125-2R has a profile that won't allow that because of the blunt nose, that may be fine, but I wouldn't think it's any more blunt than this one: MP Mold 9mm Round Nose 147-grain Competition (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?357208-CLOSED-MP-Mold-9mm-Round-Nose-147-grain-Competition-boolit)

I'm truly interested.

[DougGuy]

If you look at a SAAMI drawing for a 9mm Luger chamber, it shows freebore on a taper between the case mouth and the leade ins to the rifling. This is commonly called the throat. Manufacturers more times than not don't bother with reaming a barrel to have sufficient freebore as it is just another costly machine operation to them. If they put just enough angle on the rifling to make room to chamber a factory produced round, that's all they feel they need to provide the consumer. They take NO consideration for anyone using handloads or reloaded ammo.

Throating a barrel with freebore allows for a smooth section of the bore to hold the boolit in perfect alignment with the centerline of the bore as it exits the expanded case mouth and transitions into the rifling. The freebore serves not only as an area of relief that is machined away in order to chamber a boolit, it also serves as an alignment tool that guides the boolit and holds it square and on center with the bore as it travels into the rifling.

As an added benefit, a gun with a properly throated barrel can use ammo seated out to the length that the magazine will accept, which often greatly improves feeding because the longer the cartridge, the less likely it will experience the common "3 point jam" which creates a stoppage and a failure to feed.

Furthermore, I have not found a point at which the length of the freebore -OR- the angle of the freebore, becomes detrimental to accuracy. It doesn't seem to have a negative effect to have caliber length or a longer than caliber diameter section of freebore in the throat.

If you look at the cylinder of a Ruger 45 ACP revolver, you will see that it has easily 2.5x the caliber diameter of smooth cylinder throat (this is also freebore) in front of the chamber and they shoot plenty accurately when honed to .0005" greater than boolit diameter.

If you look down the bore of a Mossberg 12ga slug barrel, you will notice that the barrel is smoothbore inside for roughly 16" and is only rifled the last 8" or so of the length of the barrel. 16" of freebore before the slug or wadding engages rifling? Yep. Is this accurate? Yep. Mine will cloverleaf a playing card at 100yds with $3 a box Walmart slugs.

[marek313]

Ok, Marek and Doug, help me out here. What advantage does having the throat cut vs seating the bullet .020 deeper? I'm able to seat both of the bullets I referenced earlier deep enough to pass the plunk test and still have what I would consider the leading edge of the driving band outside of the case mouth.

Now, if the 356-125-2R has a profile that won't allow that because of the blunt nose, that may be fine, but I wouldn't think it's any more blunt than this one: MP Mold 9mm Round Nose 147-grain Competition (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?357208-CLOSED-MP-Mold-9mm-Round-Nose-147-grain-Competition-boolit)

I'm truly interested.

For one thing your spiking pressure a lot higher by doing that. If your barrel doesnt have properly cut throat and your seating deep in order to pass plunk test your still seating that boolet right against rifling when chambered. That throat helps reduce pressure and allow bullet to align before it hits rifling. That also helps with accuracy from my understanding.

In my case I couldnt even chamber .357 at all no matter how deep bullet was seated. There was no doubt in my mind after shooting .356 that It needed throat reaming. No accuracy at all at .356.

More often i think this affects inexpensive guns as manufacturers like to save a buck any way they can as Doug pointed out. I dont have this problem with Sig, FNH or CZ but Canik definitely needed help in that department.

[whisler]

Had to have Doug sweeten up my CZ-75 so they can have a problem too.

[joebaja]

That is fantastic to hear marek. Of course seating deeper like I do with my TP9SF means backing off the powder charge to take some of the spike out of the pressure. I know Doug does good work based on what he has done for me before. Looks like I should send him my barrel. The only hard part is finding a few days when I can have my pistol down. I shoot USPSA or steel most weekends. Maybe it is time to give the K2-45 a workout in L10.