New to me H&R HandiRifle

[Traffer]

I just bought a H&R HandiRifle in 45/70. It has a red dot sight with a 22" barrel. It came with 2 boxes of hand load cartridges. The seller said that he loaded 450 rounds and then sold the reloading stuff. He now has a Henry lever in 45/70. I asked what kind of powder he used in the loads. He said IMR but couldn't remember which IMR. The box says 48 grains on it. I looked it up and found that this would be a very "stiff" load. I don't want a stiff load and I hesitate to shoot unknown loads anyway. These cartridges have a slight bulge where the bottom of the boolit is...405 grain lead store bought boolits. I plan on pulling at least a few if not all of these bullets. It looks like these would be pretty hard to pull. I paid $200 for the whole rig. It looks in very good condition. Any advise on the cartridges or anything else. I am not wanting mule kicking recoil...this is a light gun.

[Kevinakaq]

My handi likes 10-15 grains unique with a 405 gr bullet. Pleasure to shoot and accurate to boot.

[kungfustyle]

Good deal on the gun. Pull the bullets, I wouldn't shoot anyone's reloads unless I knew them. At 405 grains a kinetic bullet puller will pop those right out. I'd even deprime the brass so you know what you are reloading. Great caliber to shoot you will have fun.

[GhostHawk]

I would pull them, I don't think I'd deprime the brass. I'd probably shoot them up with light plinking loads.

If it was me I would pull a few, weigh powder charges. Maybe take a guess at what powder it is.

Could always drop the powder charge 10-15% and try one, see how it feels and shoots.

[trapper9260]

For me I would pull all of them since I do not know the powder and then use data I know with the same primers that are in and then use some primers I have on hand and see if there is a different in the way the gun shoots and go from there of what to do and use the powder it was loaded with for what you see fit for.but I would not use it as it is.Since un know of kind of powder.Also do like what GhostHawk stated.

[Hamish]

***Pull down all the cartridges***

The seller couldn't even give you a straight answer on the powder used is a HUGE red flag for me.

You did well on the buy!

15gr. Unique will treat you very well.

[curator]

I second the opinion to pull down the cartridges with unknown powder. For the Handi-Rifle in .45-70, powders like 5744, 4198, and 3031 work great with cast boolits weighing from 300 to 450 grains. My Handi-.45-70 likes .460" boolits and leads like crazy with anything smaller regardless of lube or hardness. The Handi is pretty light for a heavy boolit rifle like the .45-70 so some extra weight helps with accuracy. I put a one pound lead weight in the butt stock bolt hole to help tame the recoil. This made the rifle a lot more fun to shoot and reduced my tendency to flinch in anticipation which improved my accuracy.

[WebMonkey]

same same.
good deal on rifle.
absolutely recycle the cartridges rather than shoot them.

[John Taylor]

With a large case capacity of the 45-70 you need to be very careful of powder charge and powder type. I had a customer try a light load of RX7 and it blew the gun up. This is called detonation and can happen when there is to much air space with slow burning powders. This does not happen with light loads of unique. If you don't know the powder it is best to dump it. I have seen more than a few guns ruined by the wrong powder/ load.

[JimB..]

Dump the powder in the flower bed, trying to save it is penny wise and pound foolish. I do not pull primers that look to be properly seated, depriming live primers is not without its risks. I do weigh and reuse the bullets. You did very well on the gun.

[Traffer]

Well I pulled one to start. It came apart easily with the kinetic puller. The boolit looks like I can use it again. It is 405 grain .4570" which is probably a good candidate for a thick coat of powder coat and reload. The amount of powder is indeed 48 grains. I sure wish I could tell what kind it is. I have NO experience with different powders. The only other powder I have ever dealt with is Hodgdon HS-6. I am including pictures of the powder IN CASE it is identifiable and can be distinguished from other IMR powders. I am a cheap skate and will reuse this powder. If you can help identify it please help. The 22lr boolit is there for reference:
225183225184225185

[Traffer]

OK, wow I found a place to identify powders. This is the result:
225187

[Gtek]

I have owned one purchased new many moons ago, being a whole lot younger and let's say a little less wise. I do know that using Marlin load data from a Hornady manual will bring truth to your life. 300 XTP in front of 54. gr. of 3031 will make a lasting impression, it has probably been fifteen years and I still remember the load. I have and still shoot a lot of big boomers but there is something special in this one. Just make sure your dental work is well or take them out and set them on bench till your done.

[Traffer]

I have owned one purchased new many moons ago, being a whole lot younger and let's say a little less wise. I do know that using Marlin load data from a Hornady manual will bring truth to your life. 300 XTP in front of 54. gr. of 3031 will make a lasting impression, it has probably been fifteen years and I still remember the load. I have and still shoot a lot of big boomers but there is something special in this one. Just make sure your dental work is well or take them out and set them on bench till your done.

I had until I got this, sworn off the mule kicking stuff. Nothing but 22lr for me lately. I have a 16 ga with some slugs that I shot last year. 3 shots and I put it away. Enough Already! I probably won't shoot more than one of these strong loads unless I take them deer hunting. I plan on getting some lighter boolits and loading some nice light plinking loads for this thing..

[rfd]

mouse fart .45-70 loads for the grandkids - 14 grains of trail boss under a lee 340 grain lubed bullet that's cast with 1:30 alloy.

[Texas by God]

I'm danger mouse as they come and I would throw away that powder. I'm with the leave them primed group. The correct charge of Unique and learn the gun and have fun at the same time. Save the kickers for someday if you think you need them. I had a 45-70 Shikari and it was a great gun. Used to ring a 2" vent pipe at a spillway from 200 yds sitting with slow 405 grs!

[kungfustyle]

YOU CANT GUESS WHAT THE POWDER IS BASED ON WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE!!!!! Unless you want to disassemble your gun, face and hands. Just put it on the plants outside and get on with life. We are all thrifty, that's why we reload, but don't be so cheep that you risk. Just my 2 cents.

[TCLouis]

10.5 grains of Unique with a 340 or 378 grain boolit will give ya right at 1100 fps least it did in an original 86 and Remington RB.

Pleasant to shoot too.

The 15 grain loads mentioned should put ya at 1500-1600 fps I'm guessing.

A lot of mine show the bulge at the boolit base also.

[Traffer]

YOU CANT GUESS WHAT THE POWDER IS BASED ON WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE!!!!! Unless you want to disassemble your gun, face and hands. Just put it on the plants outside and get on with life. We are all thrifty, that's why we reload, but don't be so cheep that you risk. Just my 2 cents.
After comparing it to these powders on this website, there is no doubt which powder it is IMR 4320...
http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/search.php

[Traffer]

10.5 grains of Unique with a 340 or 378 grain boolit will give ya right at 1100 fps least it did in an original 86 and Remington RB.

Pleasant to shoot too.

The 15 grain loads mentioned should put ya at 1500-1600 fps I'm guessing.

A lot of mine show the bulge at the boolit base also.

I like the idea of going with 1100 fps. I have found with loading 22lr, that subsonic loads are far more pleasant and shoot straighter to boot. I think a big slug from this thing going 1100 fps is plenty of power, even for hunting deer.

[GoodOlBoy]

Pull them bullets and dump the powder safely outside in a hole, water it in. With that rifle, pull that sight off, get some cowboy loads, and have fun on the range, deer hunting, hog hunting, etc. 45-70 don't need souped up, and lemme tell you the H&Rs shoot it good, but you gonna feel every extra ounce of omph a round has in it.

God Bless, and One Love.

GoodOlBoy

[Mr_Sheesh]

One effective way to prevent re-use of unknown powder is to dissolve the unknown powder in just enough Acetone to make a thick paste. An ice cube sized blob of that's sorta fun to toss in a camp fire, burns rather hot but not really a good fire starter (for that it'd need to burn slower...) I don't usually have a garden in my current living situation so this prevents someone being an idiot :)

[JimB..]

After comparing it to these powders on this website, there is no doubt which powder it is IMR 4320...
http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/search.php

I think that you’re most likely right about which powder it is, but you don’t know how meticulous the reloaded was and that’s a pretty stout load relative to what you want anyway. Odds are 99.9% that you’ll be just fine, but there is a slight chance that you’ll lose an eye, or worse, and for what to save $10 in powder?

Know a guy that reloaded a bunch of pistol rounds, took a break, then loaded some .308 on the same press. He’d run the powder measure down when loading pistol, it was the end of a can so he’d thrown it away, and ultimately he forgot to dump the last little bit that was down in the mechanism before he poured in his rifle powder. He didn’t notice it when checking his charge weight, but his brain just happened to note that the powder looked wrong as he was setting rifle bullets. Things happen.

Besides, I don’t like the look of the coating on the bullet, that it peeled off when you took it apart is not great, and I don’t like the crimp on the cartridge.

Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide to do, but if you do decide to shoot some of these please take video just in case something exciting happens.

[Traffer]

@JimB...
Thanks Jim,
I do not want a stout load. Had a friend run this load through:
Quickload Predicted Ballistics for a 22” Barrel

400 gr LRF / 48.0 gr IMR 4320 / 2.550 OAL

25564 psi / 1621 fps / 2333 ft-lb / 78.3% Burn / 92.7% Fill
I am a cheapskate! I will reuse this powder! I may even reuse the boolits BUT, thinking about turning hollow bases into them on the lathe to make them lighter...Maybe in the 300 to 320 grain range. Then work up a load with IMR 4320 for that to give me about 1100 FPS (might as well keep it subsonic) That should still be plenty of punch for deer at 100 yards. I know a lot of people are aghast at my bold and daring approach. YUP, that's me, livin on the edge.

[JimB..]

@JimB...
Thanks Jim,
I do not want a stout load. Had a friend run this load through:
Quickload Predicted Ballistics for a 22” Barrel

400 gr LRF / 48.0 gr IMR 4320 / 2.550 OAL

25564 psi / 1621 fps / 2333 ft-lb / 78.3% Burn / 92.7% Fill
I am a cheapskate! I will reuse this powder! I may even reuse the boolits BUT, thinking about turning hollow bases into them on the lathe to make them lighter...Maybe in the 300 to 320 grain range. Then work up a load with IMR 4320 for that to give me about 1100 FPS (might as well keep it subsonic) That should still be plenty of punch for deer at 100 yards. I know a lot of people are aghast at my bold and daring approach. YUP, that's me, livin on the edge.

Look into the 320g .460 mold from miha, or if your gun likes .458 give the 320g Lazer-cast bullets a try. I haven’t looked, but you’ll want to model the lighter bullet over IMR4320, pressure will be less and burn rate might really suck.

[Traffer]

Look into the 320g .460 mold from miha, or if your gun likes .458 give the 320g Lazer-cast bullets a try. I haven’t looked, but you’ll want to model the lighter bullet over IMR4320, pressure will be less and burn rate might really suck.

yeah, the burn rate is already questionable. ...Oh Well

[bstone5]

Have a Handi-Rifle in 45-70 shoot it a lot with light bullets and Trail Boss powder.
The load does not kick much and is accurate out to 100 yards. Have Williams peep sights on the rifle, the rear sight has a lot of adjustment to get on target at different ranges.
Trail Boss powder works well with the 45-70 cartridge.

[JoeJames]

YOU CANT GUESS WHAT THE POWDER IS BASED ON WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE!!!!! Unless you want to disassemble your gun, face and hands. Just put it on the plants outside and get on with life. We are all thrifty, that's why we reload, but don't be so cheep that you risk. Just my 2 cents.Agree 100% - Lord a'mercy!

[Traffer]

Agree 100% - Lord a'mercy!

OK, I'm going to explain this one more time. This time with a little more clarity.
The guy I bought the gun from was certainly honest and forthright. He gave me his name etc., even where he worked. He loaded the cartridges himself. Used many of them. He couldn't remember offhand which IMR powder he used but it definitely was IMR Powder. I went to the forensic powder identification website where the Law enforcement, FBI and others go to identify unknown gun powders. I searched for powders that looked identical to this with the same measurements. I measured some of the particles of powder. They were .083mm wide and from 1.1mm and 1.3mm long. Obviously there are some in there outside of those parameters but that was the majority of the sizes. I am including a picture that I made of a screenshot with my powder on the left and the picture of IMR 4320 from the forensic website on the left. Maybe those of you who are afraid to attempt to identify powders like this can learn something from this.
227158

[Traffer]

I second the opinion to pull down the cartridges with unknown powder. For the Handi-Rifle in .45-70, powders like 5744, 4198, and 3031 work great with cast boolits weighing from 300 to 450 grains. My Handi-.45-70 likes .460" boolits and leads like crazy with anything smaller regardless of lube or hardness. The Handi is pretty light for a heavy boolit rifle like the .45-70 so some extra weight helps with accuracy. I put a one pound lead weight in the butt stock bolt hole to help tame the recoil. This made the rifle a lot more fun to shoot and reduced my tendency to flinch in anticipation which improved my accuracy.

Thanks for that great advise. I just finally ran some patches through the barrel and sure enough ...lead mining. This has convinced me to take all 40 cartridges and pull them. Might as well dump the IMR 4320 powder and get something decent for this rig. I want to make the boolits fatter. They measure .458"
I have a couple of questions:
I am a rank amature at actuall reloading. I have spent the past three years working exclusively on 22lr. I am not sure what dies I will need for reloading these cartridges. They appear to have either a very slight crimp or none at all. The bullets pull easily with a kinetic puller. I could easily expand the mouths of these by hand. I would like to put a crimp on them when I load them.
My intention is to clean the bullets in alcohol then powder coat them with two coats of Smokes. (which is a pretty thick powder).
I will probably have to size them to .460. I can make a push sizer for that. I want to keep my costs as very low as possible. So what other dies would you suggest I purchase for the rest. I don't plan on doing a lot of plinking with it. I may only shoot the 40 cartridges that I got with it and maybe reload them once or twice and that will be it. So I don't want to invest a lot into reloading tools for it.
As usual all advise from anyone is appreciated... that's why I'm here.:p

[LandSurveyor]

I'm danger mouse as they come and I would throw away that powder. I'm with the leave them primed group. The correct charge of Unique and learn the gun and have fun at the same time. Save the kickers for someday if you think you need them. I had a 45-70 Shikari and it was a great gun. Used to ring a 2" vent pipe at a spillway from 200 yds sitting with slow 405 grs!

I still have my Shikari. Bought new in the '70s. Back then the only rounds available were 405 grains. Very pleasant to shoot. I think I would like to go back to something similar.

The Shikari has very plain and clear iron sights which still work well with my aging eyes.

[dlbarr]

My 2 cents here:

I have a HandiRifle in 45-70, actually have 3 barrels in that caliber. My "practice load" is the same as Doug Matthews' from his book Forty Years with the 45-70 - 16 gr Unique under the RCBS 45-300-FNGC. Very mild load and yet quite accurate at 50-75 yds. I've shot stiffer loads such as 25gr 5744 behind 405gr bullet (cast & jacketed). Have gone on to shoot 45gr 3031/405 bullet...that one is closer to a Marlin load and will get your attention but have shot it several times. Not trecommending this by any means, just telling you what I've done.

I'm like these other guys, I'd never shoot somebody else's loads unless I knew & trusted them extremely well.

You got a great deal on the HR - enjoy it!

[Traffer]

My 2 cents here:

I have a HandiRifle in 45-70, actually have 3 barrels in that caliber. My "practice load" is the same as Doug Matthews' from his book Forty Years with the 45-70 - 16 gr Unique under the RCBS 45-300-FNGC. Very mild load and yet quite accurate at 50-75 yds. I've shot stiffer loads such as 25gr 5744 behind 405gr bullet (cast & jacketed). Have gone on to shoot 45gr 3031/405 bullet...that one is closer to a Marlin load and will get your attention but have shot it several times. Not trecommending this by any means, just telling you what I've done.

I'm like these other guys, I'd never shoot somebody else's loads unless I knew & trusted them extremely well.

You got a great deal on the HR - enjoy it!
Thank You. That is very helpful.
I have since cleaned lead out of the barrel and cleaned up the gun. It also came with a Bushnell Red Dot scope with a rail.
The scope was either camo from the factory and painted black over that or black from the factory ...painted camo color and painted black over that. I cleaned all the paint off with a Qtip and acetone. Now it looks correct.
I am looking forward to using this gun. I guess I will buy a set of Lee Dies and a pound of Unique. I will make up light loads for plinking and a few hotter loads for deer. (If I ever go again)
Having the tools to make my own molds and swaging dies, I will probably make a mold and some swaging dies (lead swaging only).
I assume that this gun will shoot NOGroove powder coated boolets.

[firebyprolong]

I feed two 45-70 handis. My advice is to slug your bore. One of mine runs best with Bullets at .461 and the the other shoots 459 well. Depending on when it was made these run all over the map on bore dimensions. I tend to shoot a fair amount of 3031 in mine behind a pp and greaser 405s. Nothing I shoot goes faster than 1500-1600fps anymore, I just don't need it too.

[Traffer]

Resurrecting this old thread for an update.
I HAVE NOT FIRED THIS GUN YET. Health has not been good enough to get to the range.
Today I finally slugged the bore. Oddly the breech end slugs at 4580" and the muzzle end slugs at .4585? Is that normal? You can feel it get a bit tighter slugging when you get down to about 7" from the throat. I know some folks lap barrels but I don't want to do that. I just want decent accuracy and no leading.
I am pulling the ammunition it came with (405 gn hard cast lead hand loads) The barrel was leaded up pretty bad with those bullets. They are .458" in diameter.
My plan is to pull them>powder coat the bullets and reload with different powder. (My brother gave me some Varget which should work for 1400 fps loads). I wish I could load them milder but this powder doesn't burn well for lighter loads.
Anyway, I am not sure what size these bullets will be after I powder coat them. I will probably turn a sizing die on the lathe but don't know exactly what size would be best for that bore... 460"?
What do you guys think?

[Edward]

459 and then try 460 /BHN 10-12 on a Lee hardness tester ,and yup powder coating works fine and then size .I use a Lyman 450 lube/sizer and use 2400 powder /14-1500 FPS

[Traffer]

OK, just measured a pulled bullet with micrometer. .4588" and tested hardness with pencils...20 BHN. These are the same bullets that leaded up the barrel. I don't think a .4588" bullet in a .458" bore is too bad of a fit. BUT from what I have heard hard lead (20 BHN ) will gas cut at higher velocities. He was running these at about 1650 FPS. Single lube groove Flat round nose. So...I can powder coat and size them down to .459" or .460. I don't think that I should go over .460" for a .458" bore though. Going to try and make a sizing die at .4595" Does that sound logical? or is 20 bhn just too hard for this gun.

[Hamish]

Fill the throat. Load the largest bullet you can chamber. I'd start with .460

You're going to be very unhappy trying to PC pulled, lubricated bullets.

[JimB..]

If the barrel slugs as you say it does, opening up from breech to muzzle, I don’t see how it will ever shoot well.

When you cleaned up the old leading, was it primarily located towards the end of the barrel?

[Traffer]

If the barrel slugs as you say it does, opening up from breech to muzzle, I don’t see how it will ever shoot well.

When you cleaned up the old leading, was it primarily located towards the end of the barrel?

I cleaned the lead out last year and don't recall noticing if it was more in the muzzle end of the gun. I could try to lap down the breech end of the rifling a bit with some very fine grit diamond paste. This might round the edges off of the rifling though. I think I will first try to get the accuracy with changing loads and bullets.

[Traffer]

Fill the throat. Load the largest bullet you can chamber. I'd start with .460

You're going to be very unhappy trying to PC pulled, lubricated bullets.

Yes about powder coating the pulled bullets... now that I have found them to be 20 BHN I don't want to reuse them. From what people say, that hard lead tends to gas cut more easily. I think I will try to find someone to sell me some hand cast 12 bhn bullets for it. But I haven't decided what weight of bullet to go with yet.

[Conditor22]

If you know the diameter and weight you want I have over 100# of 45-70 boolits cast and powder-coated.

Some people were having problems with accuracy with their 45-70 and wanted me to cast very specific weight boolits for them (that's why I have 100# of boolits the heavier the boolit the wider the range of weights I get :()
I have:
457-340-F 2 LEE,
45-385 F 1 OHAUS
457-405-F 2 LEE
.457 489 Gr RN 1 LYMAN
459-500-3R 2 LEE

PM me if you're interested in any of them

[Traffer]

If you know the diameter and weight you want I have over 100# of 45-70 boolits cast and powder-coated.

Some people were having problems with accuracy with their 45-70 and wanted me to cast very specific weight boolits for them (that's why I have 100# of boolits the heavier the boolit the wider the range of weights I get :()
I have:
457-340-F 2 LEE,
45-385 F 1 OHAUS
457-405-F 2 LEE
.457 489 Gr RN 1 LYMAN
459-500-3R 2 LEE

PM me if you're interested in any of them

I don't seem to be able to send pm's? hans.pcguy@gmail.com
I figured it out...mail box was full....sorry.

[Edward]

OK, just measured a pulled bullet with micrometer. .4588" and tested hardness with pencils...20 BHN. These are the same bullets that leaded up the barrel. I don't think a .4588" bullet in a .458" bore is too bad of a fit. BUT from what I have heard hard lead (20 BHN ) will gas cut at higher velocities. He was running these at about 1650 FPS. Single lube groove Flat round nose. So...I can powder coat and size them down to .459" or .460. I don't think that I should go over .460" for a .458" bore though. Going to try and make a sizing die at .4595" Does that sound logical? or is 20 bhn just too hard for this gun.

459 works in mine,and 460 does too ,hardness is BHN 14/15 and both PB and GC every thing 15-1600 fps

[Traffer]

459 works in mine,and 460 does too ,hardness is BHN 14/15 and both PB and GC every thing 15-1600 fps

I don't have gas checks ...Planning on running about 1200 fps to 1400 fps. Do you think that I could get away with 14/15 bhn Powder Coated? I have those 20 bhn's that I could bump up to 460 with powder coat. Do you think the would work?

[wallacem]

I shoot the same gun except 26" bbl, scoped. My favorite load is 405 gr cast sized .460 over 36.0 gr IMR 3031. Middle power load in the trapdoor load book. Groups great, plenty of power to kill anything in North America. Wallacem in Ga

[Bagdadjoe]

I'd let my brother-in-law shoot them. :-P