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Michael J. Spangler
07-31-2018, 10:18 PM
Hi guys and gals.

I'm looking to some load advice on a plain base custom Lee run of the lyman 311041 design.
I ran this bullet with 50/50 the alloy listed below and pure lead without much luck at all So I figured it was time to cast some harder bullets and try again

I cast the new batch up bullets in an alloy of 2% tin 3% antimony. Water dropped and lube sized with Carnauba Blue to .310 in my star sizer.

I push some plain based 357 (50/50 alloy above and hi-tek coated) with max loads in my 1894 and I'm able to hit a 12" 300 yard gong pretty regularly and the 200 yard gong almost every shot (misses are my fault I'm sure)
Now I know that 6 MOA isn't the best accuracy to compare to but I'm hoping a harder alloy and much more aerodynamic bullet might help that out.

However I'm reading that you can't get accuracy at 1600 FPS or any higher for that matter without a GC.
Is this right? Am I wasting my time?
Should I keep my original alloy and just shoot these plain based moving a lot slower for plinkers?
Or will the harder alloy shoot ok at higher velocities?

I would like something capable of shooting a little flatter and having a little more whack than my 357 rifle without having to use gas checks. I know there is a give and take and I am willing to accept whatever that ends up being. I'm just hoping someone will pop in and tell me it can be done and I can dodge the evil gas checks once again.

I'm really looking forward to using this nice Marlin 336 Texan a little more at the range. ( I know I know the paper won't know the difference between 1200 FPS and 1700 FPS but it would be cool to have a nice load with hunting potential)

Thanks to all for the tons of knowledge and all of the help.

Madoktor1
07-31-2018, 10:42 PM
You might want to slug your bore too. My 336 likes them .311 instead of .310. I’ve shot plain cast, powder coated and gas checked. I’ve pushed them all around 1800 FPS with no issues.


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Outpost75
07-31-2018, 10:45 PM
With plain-based bullets in the .30-30 you will get best results at .32-40 black powder velocities from about 1250-1450 fps.

I load 15 grains of IMR4064, RL15 or Varget with a 174-grain cup-point bullet, modified from the RCBS 30-180FN, by Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com Because the RCBS molds cast too small in diameter, I had Erik bore out the GC heel and blend it with the base band to make a .312" diameter base band, then he did his inset bar conversion with a 1/4" diameter core pin to shorten the nose slightly, increase the meplat diameter to 1/4" with a .15" diameter cup point with 60 degree draft angle.

Cast from 1:30 tin-lead from Roto Metals velocity is about 1400 fps and the load is a killer at woods range. An off the shelf, plain-based bullet for the .30-30 which gives good results is Accurate 31-155D. As a general rule the plainbase charge should not exceed about 1/2 of the full jacketed charge with a similar weight bullet, using powders such as RL7, 3031, 4895, 4064, RL15, Varget, etc. When these powders are reduced to 50% recommended practice is to tuck a loose tuft of Dacron polyester fiber into the case neck to take up the free airspace in the case. In the .30-30 size case the correct amount is about 1 grain, weighed, or approximately a 1/2" square of 1/4" thick "quilt batting" from Walmart.

Let the seating of the bullet determine the final positioning of the loose fill.

DO NOT!!!! poke the loose filler against the powder. It is NOT a wad, it is an inert bulk filler wqhich should be completely consumed upon firing. If you see obvious "fluff" blown out the muzzle you are using too much.

Please DO NOT substitute cream of wheat, corn meal, granulated plastic "grex", cattail fluff, belly button lint or duck feathers, regardless of what you may have read elsewhere.

224756224757

Michael J. Spangler
07-31-2018, 10:56 PM
You might want to slug your bore too. My 336 likes them .311 instead of .310. I’ve shot plain cast, powder coated and gas checked. I’ve pushed them all around 1800 FPS with no issues.


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This is the type of reports I like to hear. What type of accuracy did you get?
I’ll slug the bore this weekend. Thanks for the heads up.


With plain-based bullets in the .30-30 you will get best results at .32-40 black powder velocities from about 1250-1450 fps.

I load 15 grains of IMR4064, RL15 or Varget with a 174-grain cup-point bullet, modified from the RCBS 30-180FN, by Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com Because the RCBS molds cast too small in diameter, I had Erik bore out the GC heel and blend it with the base band to make a .312" diameter base band, then he did his inset bar conversion with a 1/4" diameter core pin to shorten the nose slightly, increase the meplat diameter to 1/4" with a .15" diameter cup point with 60 degree draft angle.

Cast from 1:30 tin-lead from Roto Metals velocity is about 1400 fps and the load is a killer at woods range.

224756

Well I guess you can’t argue with those results. I have to say that would kill a deer as dead as it can get.
I guess I’m just looking to get more out of the 30/30 than what I can get from the 357 rifle. I know sectional density is better but my brain is telling me there should be a wallop somewhere between 45/70 and 357 mag.
Thanks again! Keep em coming.

Madoktor1
07-31-2018, 11:05 PM
This is the type of reports I like to hear. What type of accuracy did you get?
I’ll slug the bore this weekend. Thanks for the heads up.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180801/6523a53098106a79d2e0b3cd97854245.jpg

100 yds. I haven’t tested further because all my shots will be within this.


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Outpost75
07-31-2018, 11:12 PM
This is the type of reports I like to hear. What type of accuracy did you get?
I’ll slug the bore this weekend. Thanks for the heads up.

Well I guess you can’t argue with those results. I have to say that would kill a deer as dead as it can get.
I guess I’m just looking to get more out of the 30/30 than what I can get from the 357 rifle. I know sectional density is better but my brain is telling me there should be a wallop somewhere between 45/70 and 357 mag.
Thanks again! Keep em coming.

My plainbased loads from soft alloy, with correctly fitting bullets shoot more accurately than factory jacketed. Bullet fit is critical. These Accurate designs have tapered noses which engrave as the bolt closes and locks up. The amount of resistance to action closure is is not enough to impair rapid fire. I expect 2-1/2" to 3" five-shot groups at 100 yards from my Winchester 94 with iron sights. I could probably do better with scope, but with 70-year-old eyeballs I am happy with this.

The Accurate 31-171D is the GC version of the 155D bullet and in 1:30 tin-lead alloy using 50-50 Alox-beeswax I can maintain good hunting accuracy to about 1900 fps with 30 grains of IMR4064, RL15 or Varget. At that velocity no hollow-pointing is needed and expansion on game out at 100 yards is similar to factory soft points.

224758224759

twidpa
07-31-2018, 11:16 PM
1-22 to 1-30 and at least a full .001 over bore and I go 1675 fps with no problems.
T

Michael J. Spangler
07-31-2018, 11:28 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180801/6523a53098106a79d2e0b3cd97854245.jpg

100 yds. I haven’t tested further because all my shots will be within this.


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That’s good enough for me.


My plainbased loads from soft alloy, with correctly fitting bullets shoot more accurately than factory jacketed. Bullet fit is critical. These Accurate designs have tapered noses which engrave as the bolt closes and locks up. The amount of resistance to action closure is is not enough to impair rapid fire. I expect 2-1/2" to 3" five-shot groups at 100 yards from my Winchester 94 with iron sights. I could probably do better with scope, but with 70-year-old eyeballs I am happy with this.

The Accurate 31-171D is the GC version of the 155D bullet and in 1:30 tin-lead alloy using 50-50 Alox-beeswax I can maintain good hunting accuracy to about 1900 fps with 30 grains of IMR4064, RL15 or Varget. At that velocity no hollow-pointing is needed and expansion on game out at 100 yards is similar to factory soft points.

224758224759
The bullet I’m using tends to engrave ever so slightly when chambering hopefully that helps.
Have you worked with harder alloys or mostly just softer alloys?
That bullet looks like it would hit pretty hard.


1-22 to 1-30 and at least a full .001 over bore and I go 1675 fps with no problems.
T
What lube are you using?

Outpost75
07-31-2018, 11:39 PM
With full charge loads and GC bullets an alloy of about 13 BHN is ideal. Harder than 15 BHN requires over 2000 fps to expand and harder than about 18 BHN will not mushroom, but fragments. 1:30 tin lead is best for hunting loads up to about 1800 fps if bullet fits, is properly lubed and you have a smooth bore.

For GC bullets in match shooting hardball alloy or linotype is good, but plainbased bullets are best no harder than 12-13 BHN.

Madoktor1
07-31-2018, 11:51 PM
With full charge loads and GC bullets an alloy of about 13 BHN is ideal. Harder than 15 BHN requires over 2000 fps to expand and harder than about 18 BHN will not mushroom, but fragments. 1:30 tin lead is best for hunting loads up to about 1800 fps if bullet fits, is properly lubed and you have a smooth bore.

For GC bullets in match shooting hardball alloy or linotype is good, but plainbased bullets are best no harder than 12-13 BHN.

Mine run about 16 BHN but I generally only use cast as range fodder for my wife. It helps with her proficiency with the rifle. That said, I wouldn’t hesitate to use one hunting either but I generally use Sierras for hunting.


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Michael J. Spangler
08-01-2018, 08:03 AM
With full charge loads and GC bullets an alloy of about 13 BHN is ideal. Harder than 15 BHN requires over 2000 fps to expand and harder than about 18 BHN will not mushroom, but fragments. 1:30 tin lead is best for hunting loads up to about 1800 fps if bullet fits, is properly lubed and you have a smooth bore.

For GC bullets in match shooting hardball alloy or linotype is good, but plainbased bullets are best no harder than 12-13 BHN.

I’m following you up to the last part. Maybe it’s too early for me to catch what you’re saying.
Why would plain based be good only at 12-13 BHN? What do they lose being harder? I understand expansion for hunting but for match shooting what would you lose?
Thanks!

mattw
08-01-2018, 08:29 AM
224756224757

That is one good looking boolit! I shoot the Lyman 311466 often, mine pours out of round but shoots very well sized to .311 in an early 70's Winchester. The 311041 also shoots very well. Both are checked boolits and I do use checks even on my light load of 16.5 grains of 2400.

Outpost75
08-01-2018, 11:22 AM
That is one good looking boolit! I shoot the Lyman 311466 often, mine pours out of round but shoots very well sized to .311 in an early 70's Winchester. The 311041 also shoots very well. Both are checked boolits and I do use checks even on my light load of 16.5 grains of 2400.

16.5 grains of Alliant #2400 in the .30-30 case is a full charge, max pressure load, even though not full velocity.

I use 10-11 grains of #2400 in the .30-30 with a plain base, 11-12 grains in the Krag or .303 Brit and 12-13 grs. in the '06.

Outpost75
08-01-2018, 11:27 AM
I’m following you up to the last part. Maybe it’s too early for me to catch what you’re saying.
Why would plain based be good only at 12-13 BHN? What do they lose being harder? I understand expansion for hunting but for match shooting what would you lose?
Thanks!

Plain based bullets must fit exactly, or upset reliably to get a positive gas seal.

A hard, plainbase bullet which fits correctly and engraves on the nose as in the example shown cannot be chambered!

If a hard bullet is dimensioned smaller so that it will chamber without effort, it will not seal in light loads, so will lead and be inaccurate. There is no advantage to going harder than straight COWW+ 1-2% tin, about 12-13 BHN with plain based bullets at suitable velocities 1050-1450 fps where they will be accurate.

The ASRRA guys shoot bughole 200-yard groups at 200 yards with breech seated, plainbased bullets. Most use 1:25 or 1:30 tin-lead with 14-15 grs. of IMR4227 or 4198 in the .32-40. Good loads for .30-30 too, but I have found in fixed ammo with its increased seating depth the slower, standard rifle powders provide a more gentle pressure rise and better grouping from hunting rifles.

Michael J. Spangler
08-01-2018, 12:14 PM
Plain based bullets must fit exactly, or upset reliably to get a positive gas seal.

A hard, plainbase bullet which fits correctly and engraves on the nose as in the example shown cannot be chambered!

If a hard bullet is dimensioned smaller so that it will chamber without effort, it will not seal in light loads, so will lead and be inaccurate. There is no advantage to going harder than straight COWW+ 1-2% tin, about 12-13 BHN with plain based bullets at suitable velocities 1050-1450 fps where they will be accurate.

The ASRRA guys shoot bughole 200-yard groups at 200 yards with breech seated, plainbased bullets. Most use 1:25 or 1:30 tin-lead with 14-15 grs. of IMR4227 or 4198 in the .32-40. Good loads for .30-30 too, but I have found in fixed ammo with its increased seating depth the slower, standard rifle powders provide a more gentle pressure rise and better grouping from hunting rifles.

Ok that’s what I was figuring.
So if this bullet tends to engrave just ever so slightly (less than what you show in your pics) is there a chance that it just might have that perfect fit and seal well without the obturation?
I guess tonight will tell if the weather holds out for me.

My other thought was to get a smaller sized and paper patch for this gun. That would be awesome.

Outpost75
08-01-2018, 12:28 PM
Ok that’s what I was figuring.
So if this bullet tends to engrave just ever so slightly (less than what you show in your pics) is there a chance that it just might have that perfect fit and seal well without the obturation? I guess tonight will tell if the weather holds out for me.

My other thought was to get a smaller sized and paper patch for this gun. That would be awesome.

The proof is in the shooting. With my arthritic hands I cannot paper patch .30 cal. anymore, and I feel that process is a PITA.

Larry Gibson
08-01-2018, 01:53 PM
Yes, "the proof is in the shooting".....

If PBd cast bullets could be shot as accurately, or even close to it, at 1800+ fps (that's the minimum it would take to "flatten out" the trajectory) as cast bullets with GCs we'd all be using them. Fact is they don't. Are GCs really that expensive or difficult to use?

Michael J. Spangler
08-01-2018, 01:57 PM
Yes, "the proof is in the shooting".....

If PBd cast bullets could be shot as accurately, or even close to it, at 1800+ fps (that's the minimum it would take to "flatten out" the trajectory) as cast bullets with GCs we'd all be using them. Fact is they don't. Are GCs really that expensive or difficult to use?

Good point.
I don’t necessarily need great accuracy. I really just want to hear the steel ring and have hunting accuracy.
I might need to give into GCs. The issue is I like to be self sufficient which means it’s time to buy a freechex.
I guess it’s not a bad thing.

twidpa
08-01-2018, 02:32 PM
That’s good enough for me.


The bullet I’m using tends to engrave ever so slightly when chambering hopefully that helps.
Have you worked with harder alloys or mostly just softer alloys?
That bullet looks like it would hit pretty hard.


What lube are you using?

Over the counter stuff on the harder end. Never been one to worry too much about the different types of lube. I don't like it when it is so soft it gets all over everything. I shoot a lot of commercial lead pills in the 30 cal stuff that comes with a heard blue lube.
T

popper
08-01-2018, 02:39 PM
I can shoot MOA @ 100 with 145gr PB, harder alloy, 2100 fps in 300BO. Pressure is right up there like 30/30 full tilt loads. I have to use more reduced loads in 30/30 as I can't really shoot it worth a darn anymore (recoil). You do need the harder alloy, WDWW and sized properly. I do pretty good with 170gr PB, 10gr Unique (~1500) or 16gr 2400 (faster) with ACWW or a little softer. This was ~1% Sb, some Zn & Cu. IIRC the BO load was 16gr 1680. Same boolit, PC & WD. It is possible but takes some experimenting. From many yrs back, I was using LeverE (~27gr) with the RD 180, GC vs PB, PB doubled group @ 100. GC just make it easier. Home made (sage, etc) are OK but I use Hornady when accuracy is needed.
224796
Found a target from those old days 15gr 2400 = 1780fps, RD PB & PC, Roto hi SB alloy (~4%) WD.

Michael J. Spangler
08-01-2018, 10:07 PM
Over the counter stuff on the harder end. Never been one to worry too much about the different types of lube. I don't like it when it is so soft it gets all over everything. I shoot a lot of commercial lead pills in the 30 cal stuff that comes with a heard blue lube.
T
Awesome


I can shoot MOA @ 100 with 145gr PB, harder alloy, 2100 fps in 300BO. Pressure is right up there like 30/30 full tilt loads. I have to use more reduced loads in 30/30 as I can't really shoot it worth a darn anymore (recoil). You do need the harder alloy, WDWW and sized properly. I do pretty good with 170gr PB, 10gr Unique (~1500) or 16gr 2400 (faster) with ACWW or a little softer. This was ~1% Sb, some Zn & Cu. IIRC the BO load was 16gr 1680. Same boolit, PC & WD. It is possible but takes some experimenting. From many yrs back, I was using LeverE (~27gr) with the RD 180, GC vs PB, PB doubled group @ 100. GC just make it easier. Home made (sage, etc) are OK but I use Hornady when accuracy is needed.
224796
Found a target from those old days 15gr 2400 = 1780fps, RD PB & PC, Roto hi SB alloy (~4%) WD.

I'll do some more playing. I loaded up a quick batch tonight with 18 grains of H4198 and lobbed them out to 200 yards just to see if they were somewhat consistent. They did well and seemed to leave the barrel pretty clean.
I'm going to load a few more and bring them for paper testing next week.
If I get a chance I'll try the same bullet GC side by side to see how they stand up.

On the other hand my Uberti 1873 was rocking the steel at 200 and a couple hits at 300 with a 358156 no gas check Hi Tek coated and pushed with 14 grains of 2400.
I really love that little gun.

centershot
08-02-2018, 07:05 AM
Awesome



I'll do some more playing. I loaded up a quick batch tonight with 18 grains of H4198 and lobbed them out to 200 yards just to see if they were somewhat consistent. They did well and seemed to leave the barrel pretty clean.
I'm going to load a few more and bring them for paper testing next week.
If I get a chance I'll try the same bullet GC side by side to see how they stand up.

On the other hand my Uberti 1873 was rocking the steel at 200 and a couple hits at 300 with a 358156 no gas check Hi Tek coated and pushed with 14 grains of 2400.
I really love that little gun.

35 caliber bore vs 30 caliber bore AND the slower twist of the 35 - It makes a difference!

pls1911
08-12-2018, 03:36 PM
As stated above, Microgroove barrels seem to prefer .311 and a little harder alloy.
I shoot mostly early pre-microgroove guns, and they shoot fine with about any reasonable size, .309 through .311. gas checked bullets.