Which bullet penetrates better on close range elk?

[Naphtali]

Speer's FNSP(loaded round, and bullet on right) 400-grain and Remington's 405-grain FNSP (bullet on left) are moderately priced bullets intended for 45-70 cartridges. Loading ammunition to chronographed muzzle velocity of 1900 fps, which of them will penetrate elk more deeply, more reliably at 50 yards and closer?
http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/756065_Speer__Remington.jpg (http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/756065/Speer__Remington.jpg.html)

[Dr. A]

I have only shot elk with wheel weights lead, however, I do have experience with the Remington 405 and buffalo. They really will rock their world, and had in every incidence the bullet completely going through buff all the way to 1600#. They most likely will shed their jacket (which is 50gr), though I can't proove that. They do have a harder core than the Speer, although I doubt either would let you down. When 400gr. of lead is flying, things are gonna die.:roll:.. Many seem bent on prooving the 45-70 needs a juiced up bullet, but I don't think so. They had devastating effect, and in fact incapacitated a bit faster than lead 405's alone.

I'm sure either one would do well.

[Doc Highwall]

According to Speer their bullet was made for 458 Win mag velocities. The Remington I would strongly suspect would be best at 45-70 velocities.

[MtGun44]

I wanted to know the same thing before hunting in Africe with my Guide Gun.

I milled one of each in half and the jackets look identical. I could get a much
better price on the Rem 405 and they are two diameter so work in my 86 Win, too
so I went to the Rems over the Speer. Not that I think the Speers are bad, but
they won't chamber in my 86 unless seated very deep.

One thru the shoulders of a wildebeeste at 90 yds with a muzzle vel of
1750 made it all the way to the far hide, expanded a lot, basically intact but
pretty mushroomed out. Lots of bone in the path. The professional hunter
was impressed. Wildebeest dropped in about 30 yds. Death bellow in about
1 minute or so, hard to judge time with the excitement.

Frontal shot on zebra, bullet was much less damaged, held up well,
penetrated around 36", a bit hard to tell because it wound up in the
guts, which were moved around a lot when skinning/gutting. This one
had a partial hit on (apparently) the sternum, took the big arteries off
the top of the heart, zebra fell immediately, got up and ran 25 yds, fell
and stayed down.

Both are comparable or tougher than an elk, I think.

I have the bullets if you really care, can take some pix and post.

I recommend the 1750 vel range, I loaded up to 2000 fps and the
recoil was really nasty and I doubt the killing power is much better.

Bill

[Bass Ackward]

If you get bored one of these days and you really want to penetrate, turn the bullets around and watch what happens on a target. Turns a jacketed bullet into cast bullet performance for penetration. Probably have to seat them deeper to feed.

[Bret4207]

Ever think of trying boolit instead of a bullet?

[Naphtali]

I wanted to know the same thing before hunting in Africe with my Guide Gun.

I milled one of each in half and the jackets look identical. I could get a much
better price on the Rem 405 and they are two diameter so work in my 86 Win, too
so I went to the Rems over the Speer. Not that I think the Speers are bad, but
they won't chamber in my 86 unless seated very deep.

One thru the shoulders of a wildebeeste at 90 yds with a muzzle vel of
1750 made it all the way to the far hide, expanded a lot, basically intact but
pretty mushroomed out. Lots of bone in the path. The professional hunter
was impressed. Wildebeest dropped in about 30 yds. Death bellow in about
1 minute or so, hard to judge time with the excitement.

Frontal shot on zebra, bullet was much less damaged, held up well,
penetrated around 36", a bit hard to tell because it wound up in the
guts, which were moved around a lot when skinning/gutting. This one
had a partial hit on (apparently) the sternum, took the big arteries off
the top of the heart, zebra fell immediately, got up and ran 25 yds, fell
and stayed down.

Both are comparable or tougher than an elk, I think.

I have the bullets if you really care, can take some pix and post.

I recommend the 1750 vel range, I loaded up to 2000 fps and the
recoil was really nasty and I doubt the killing power is much better.

BillPlease furnish photographs. This is the first response that truly addresses my query.

Presently, I use an LBT 380-grain LFN. It does not expand. Until I hit a "wall of emotional repulsion" (thank you, Isaac Asimov) when attempting to firm up conversion to a more-than-50 Alaskan .50-caliber cartridge, I was not interested in obtaining more from 45-70s.

I can invest more than a dollar a bullet to get first-class results via 405-grain ABW Kodiak flat nose soft point. I'm attempting to identify a moderately priced bullet, having nearly identical trajectory, that will do the job in a pinch. Where I hunt, terrain is hilly-to-mountainous, very heavily forested and overgrown -- upstate New York, circa 1758, with a bad attitude. Maximum shooting range would be 150 yards. More realistic is a range between 10 and 50 yards. My ability to correctly estimate range is suspect. I anticipate a velocity as close to 2000 fps as I can achieve safely will eliminate misses caused by range estimation error. I'm willing to accept punishment for this benefit.

This doesn't mean abandonment of cast bullets. I'm attempting to render practice bullets and premium bullets as close to similar in function as I can get. Remington and Speer FNSPs are close physically. While I expect neither to approach ABW's standard, close may be close enough.

[Larry Gibson]

I have dispatched injured elk with both the Remington and the Speer bullets at 2250 fps out of my Siamese Mauser 450-400-70 (45-70 to those with no imagination). Ranges were probably 25-50 yards with most shots being broadside, through the shoulders into the heart lung area. The meat was to be ground into hamburger and given to poor so I wasn't much concerned with meat damage. I was interested in bullet performance. Of several (5 if I recall correctly) only one bullet was recovered as the others went completely through. All exit holes and wound channels gave evidence of awesome expansion. No jackets were recovered in the elk but some lead chunks were (not very big ones). The Remingtons appeared to perform equally as the Speers.

That bullet recovered was from an old and very big cow with a broken leg. The shot went a tudge high through both shoulders and the heavy part of the neck/spine area. The Speer bullet was lodged just under the far side hide of the shoulder. It had dramatically expanded and weighed around 325 gr as I recall. The jacket was still attached to the core. Wound channel damage was awesome indeed! At the shot the cow traveled only a couple feet...straight down.

I also killed one of my own cow elk, on license, with the Speer bullet loaded to 1925 fps since this was to be my own meat. The shot was about 75-80 yards and the cow was quartering away. The bullet entered right behind the near leg about 1/3 up from the brisket. The bullet blew the heart up, destroyed the lungs in that area and took out about 3-4" of the area between the far shoulder and the neck on exit. The cow collapsed and slid forward about 10' from momentum as she had been walking when shot. While the bullet did a fine job I still though the damage was excessive and decided to load them down to 1800 fps for the next elk. Alas, other cartridges and other longer range areas have precluded me trying it at that velocity. However, i always take that rifle with me when elk hunting so if I go into pole patches after the elk it's what I'll use.

Larry Gibson

[Wicky]

Used both in my ruger #3 for brumbies and donkeys, velocity is around 2000fps out of the short barrel. Couldn't detect any difference between the two and shure the animals didn't either. Shots are usually taken between 25 and 100 metres.
Recoils is a little stiff in the ruger but not unbearable. :)

[Naphtali]

Do, or do not. There is no try.
Yoda Closer than the galaxy far away: "Tryin' don't get it done, Dude." John T. Chance to "Dude."
Rio Bravo (1959)

[MtGun44]

Here are the two 405s used in Africa. The left one was pushed thru both
shoulders of a wildebeeste, found against the hide on the far side. The
right one hit a zebra dead center of chest pure frontal shot, apparently
clipped edge of sternum.

Also, here is the Rem and Speer 405s milled to look at the jacket thickness.

MAYBE the Speer jacket is a hair thicker, but they look pretty much the same to
me. Speer has the crimp groove (left) and the Rem has two cannelures and
an undersized nose to work in short throats like Win 86s.

Load was 57.0 W748, F215 magnum primer, Rem brass, Rem 405 LOA
is 2.55" (IIRC) max for Marlin Guide Gun SS. This load runs under 2" at
100 yds, chronos right about 1750 fps.

Not the best pix, I need a macro lens!

Bill

[MtGun44]

I reshot the pix with a different camera and did some color/brightness
adjustments with software.

I think these are a lot easier to see. :D

Bill