Self defence and LEO.

[jdfoxinc]

Please please please, if you ever have to use your firearm in self defense, lay it down after the action is over. An Aurora homeowner shot and killed a home invader. The neighbors called APD. The home owner exited his house holding his firearm. Being in shock he did not obey orders to disarm and was shot and killed by LEO.

[lightman]

Thats sad. One hopes to not ever be in that situation. And most of us don't have the training or experience to deal with the shock and adrenaline that happens.

[knifemaker]

If it was the neighbors that called to report hearing gunshots in their neighbors house. Cops get there and see a person exiting the residence, first thing that will come to their mind is that he is a suspect that just shot someone in the house and failing to obey orders to drop the gun will most times result in being shot at by the law enforcement officers.
If you have to shoot someone in self defense in your home, do not exit the house if possible. If you have to exit the house do not have your gun in your hand. Wait till the cops get there and might be smart to call dispatch and advise them what happen and tell them to let the officers know you will be coming out unarmed and hands in the air.
If you shoot someone in public in self defense. If possible conceal the firearm on your person before cops get there and upon their arrival have hands in air and yell to them that you did shoot in self defense and you have a gun on your person. Then obey their orders to the letter and no fast moves with your hands. As a law enforcement officer, I had two incidents where I almost shot a suspect that I was told was armed and they made a stupid fast move and at the last second I saw something that made me hold my fire. One time the hammer was half way back in a double action shot before I stopped the trigger pull.

[jdfoxinc]

It turns out that the LEO was inside the home when the shooting happened. Dispatch had a description of the suspect as being young and black, the home owner was white and elderly.

[popper]

https://kdvr.com/2018/08/01/stepson-of-man-killed-by-aurora-police-says-intruder-was-choking-biting-his-11-year-old-son/ The real story? All sounds weird. Train your family to shut up if you have to use a weapon in self defense. LE can get info from your lawyer and scene investigation. Punk's family like $$.

[brewer12345]

I am law abiding to the core, but if the police shoot at me they can expect me to return fire.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Since the police use the key word "gun" to signal to their partner that they see a definite threat and saying that you could get shot, you could say firearm, pistol, whatever but I wouldn't say "gun". Bad for your health...

[am44mag]

I am law abiding to the core, but if the police shoot at me they can expect me to return fire.

Sounds like a great way to get killed. In the highly unlikely event that you find yourself misidentified as an armed threat, put the gun down/drop it immediately and make sure they can see your hands and make sure they are far away from your waistband or any pockets. If you shoot at them, they will shoot back. There's a heck of a lot more of them than you, so you will loose and you will most likely die and be seen as a wannabe cop killer by your community. Not exactly the best legacy to leave for your family.

Tough talk on the internet is nice for BSing with your buddies, but in the real world all it gets you is a grieving family and a grave.

[sureYnot]

If you read more carefully, in his scenario, the police started shooting first.

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[am44mag]

If you read more carefully, in his scenario, the police started shooting first.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using TapatalkI read his scenario and understood exactly what he was saying. There is no need for me to read more carefully. If you shoot back at police, you will remove any doubt from their minds that you are indeed a threat to their lives. If you find yourself in a bad situation where they think you are a threat, the ONLY smart thing you can do is to disarm yourself immediately and do everything you can to make them perceive you as less of a threat. If you shoot back at them, it will always end badly for you. You can't Rambo your way out of a situation like that, and trying to do so will only result in your death and a 30 second segment on the 5 o'clock news about how the police killed an armed assailant.

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[sureYnot]

If somebody is shooting at you, they're already trying to kill you.

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[am44mag]

If somebody is shooting at you, they're already trying to kill you.

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Please walk me through the logic of shooting back at the police. How do you think that's going to end, and how is it going to be even remotely beneficial to you?

[sureYnot]

Well, if he's trying to kill you and you just stand there and let him, you die for sure. If you try to stop him you only MOST LIKELY die. If you don't die, you get the opportunity to prove he was acting outside the law. And if his friends show up and kill you later, you aren't really any MORE dead than if you let him do it. Anyway, not really a problem where I'm from. Pretty sure you'd have to be the one that started it, to get them to shoot at you. Had a sheriff draw down on me last year. He didn't shoot, I followed orders. Got it all sorted. He handed back my weapon, shook my hand, and we went out separate ways. Stupid neighbors.

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[rl69]

I will die defending my self, I will die defending my familly,I will die defending my country I will die defending what I believe is right. I will not die in fear of death. How far we have come from "I regret I have but one life to give" to just drop to your knees and put your hands behind your head.

But hay it's just a bunch of Internet talk

[am44mag]

Well, if he's trying to kill you and you just stand there and let him, you die for sure. If you try to stop him you only MOST LIKELY die. If you don't die, you get the opportunity to prove he was acting outside the law. And if his friends show up and kill you later, you aren't really any MORE dead than if you let him do it. Anyway, not really a problem where I'm from. Pretty sure you'd have to be the one that started it, to get them to shoot at you. Had a sheriff draw down on me last year. He didn't shoot, I followed orders. Got it all sorted. He handed back my weapon, shook my hand, and we went out separate ways. Stupid neighbors.

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If you throw your gun away and throw your hands up, more than likely they'd stop shooting. I know I would. If you try to stop him with force, you will be met with even more force and then you will REALLY be in trouble. It's not a good situation to be in period, but shooting at the police will make a very bad situation even worse.

As I said before it is an unlikely situation to find yourself in, but it does happen. If you think about it from both the officer's perspective and the shooters/victim's perspective, it starts to make sense. An officer is not going to know exactly what's going on when he get's there. He's not going to know who you are or that you are the victim. He's only going to know what dispatch told him with will likely be a "shots fired" or "man with gun" call. When he drives up and sees a guy standing out in his yard with a gun in his hand, he can't just assume they are not a threat. It could be the homeowner or it could be an armed bad guy who just shot the homeowner. There is no way for them to know that unless they are told that by dispatch.

From the homeowners perspective, they might no be thinking clearly. A lot of things can happen in a self defense shooting, and while we like to think that we can keep a clear head and make rational decisions, that may not be the reality of the situation. People can go into psychological shock after an even like a self defense shooting. They can be partially or completely deaf from firing a gun in an enclosed area. Their mind can be a thousand miles away trying to process what just happened. You never know how someone's going to react until it happens.

Now, the officer is on scene and sees an armed person. That person isn't following orders and that officer has to assume they are a threat. Put yourself in that situation and ask yourself what YOU would do. Remember that you don't know what that person just experienced and that you are just responding to a shots fired call. They're armed and not listening to you. Maybe they make a move that you perceive as a threat and you have a split second to make a choice. Do you fire, or not. Remember that you don't have time to think it over, and you certainly won't be able to armchair quarterback your way out of the situation like too many faceless people online think they can. You have less than a second to make that choice. If you make the wrong choice, you will either kill somebody or be killed. THAT is the reality that officers face. Can you honestly say you'd make the right decision in that split second? Do you see now how this situation could happen? It's not the fault of the officer, or the fault of the homeowner. Things can happen that are out of our control and we can find ourselves in these types of situations without warning.

The police are not the bad guys. They want to help and protect people. They can make mistakes though, and it is far too easy to make one that could cost you are someone else their life. I will tell you this though, if you shoot at an officer you are not going to benefit from your actions at all. You are going to make the situation so much worse for yourself. Your best option by far is to do everything you can to make yourself look like less of a threat.

Let's be honest though. If you can think clearly enough to get into a gun fight with police, and you were still armed when they got there, you made some mistakes. Don't walk around your yard or house with a gun in your hand after a self defense shooting. That's just plain common sense.


I will die defending my self, I will die defending my familly,I will die defending my country I will die defending what I believe is right. I will not die in fear of death. How far we have come from "I regret I have but one life to give" to just drop to your knees and put your hands behind your head.

But hay it's just a bunch of Internet talk

There's a lot of things to die for, but this is a really stupid reason to give up your life. It will amount to a whole lotta nothing.

[sureYnot]

I am law abiding to the core, but if the police shoot at me they can expect me to return fire.Nothing in that post about running around with a gun in his hand or otherwise being provocative.

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[knifemaker]

Well said am44mag. In real life you will have some computer screen wanna be Rambos that will disagree with your sound advice.

[am44mag]

Nothing in that post about running around with a gun in his hand or otherwise being provocative.

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Then I guess you don't have to worry about the police shooting at you then. :-)


Well said am44mag. In real life you will have some computer screen wanna be Rambos that will disagree with your sound advice.

Exactly. Almost all of them will never be in that situation and the ones that do will either grossly overestimate their confidence in shooting at the police, or will be a 30 second segment on the evening news. The bad thing is, they give the anti gunners quite a bit of ammo. All they have to do is point them out and say "look at those gun nuts threatening to shoot cops".

[brewer12345]

Am, guessing you are or were a cop?

Like I said, I am the law abiding type and will always avoid violence. That said, if someone shoots at me I intend to shoot back. All very unlikely hypotheticals, given the sedate life I live.

[sureYnot]

Yes, he was.

Good Lord, man. I already said I don't worry about the LEOs around here. But you're trying to make out like there's never been a dirty cop in the history of the world. And NOBODY advocated going out to shoot at cops. You're doing a great job twisting everything. Sheesh.

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[brewer12345]

Yes, he was.

Good Lord, man. I already said I don't worry about the LEOs around here. But you're trying to make out like there's never been a dirty cop in the history of the world. And NOBODY advocated going out to shoot at cops. You're doing a great job twisting everything. Sheesh.

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+1, couldn't have said it better.

[am44mag]

Am, guessing you are or were a cop?

Nope and nope, but you're not far off.


Like I said, I am the law abiding type and will always avoid violence. That said, if someone shoots at me I intend to shoot back. All very unlikely hypotheticals, given the sedate life I live.

Then why even make a comment about shooting cops? Exactly what did that do for the conversation, and what kind of reaction did you realistically expect? Surely you knew you were going to get push-back for a comment like that.


Yes, he was.

Nope, not a cop. At least not yet.


Good Lord, man. I already said I don't worry about the LEOs around here.

Well that's good. No body should have to worry about their local LEOs. They're there to help you, not hurt you.


But you're trying to make out like there's never been a dirty cop in the history of the world.

I will pay you $500 right now if you can show me where I said that. This conversation has nothing to do with dirty cops, I never even brought them up. I have even publicly denounced a few bad officers on this forum in the past. To the point where some people labeled me a "cop basher" and others PMed me trying to change my mind about an officer who blatantly violated someone's rights. Don't try to make this argument about something else. It's not about dirty cops.


And NOBODY advocated going out to shoot at cops. You're doing a great job twisting everything. Sheesh.

What was it that you said to me earlier? Something about reading more carefully? You might want to take your own advise and go reread what I actually said. Anti gun liberals will say that, not me.

[sureYnot]

I have nothing to gain by further defending our explaining myself. We're obviously not all envisioning the same scenario. I've had enough "Facebook". Let myself get sucked into an off topic, pointless, doesn't matter anyway, debate, twice now. Tsk, tsk. Tomorrow I'll work harder on keeping the ol' pie hole shut. Lol

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[brewer12345]

Is it really worth getting your undies in a was over extreme hypotheticals?

[RKJ]

I'm very pro police, but (there's always a but isn't there?) This type of thing is happening way too often. Maybe, it's the 24 hour a day news (that is looking for a dynamic story) or the web and all the different ways to get information today. But, I am hearing about this sort of thing entirely too often to suit me. This article doesn't give very much information about how it happened (maybe after the police news conference there will be more) but it seems to me that the police are doing a lot more of shoot first and ask questions later. I understand they want to go home at the end of the day and there are a lot more anti police out there than in the past. I also don't have any answers or solutions for it. Just thinking it's a **** shame is all.

[KCSO]

Happens to cops too many a plain clothes officer has been shot at the scene when he turned with his gun in hand. After the shooting is over empty hands in the air! Folks don't wear a t shirt that says BAD GUY. I don't know which family will hurt more over this.

[tunnug]

Happens to cops too many a plain clothes officer has been shot at the scene when he turned with his gun in hand. After the shooting is over empty hands in the air! Folks don't wear a t shirt that says BAD GUY. I don't know which family will hurt more over this.
The problem I see with this particular event is that Grampa was starting to look for more bad guys IN HIS HOUSE, the cops are barging in or are already there when he turns the first corner, no one said they heard the cops until after the second barrage of shots, another story I read said Gramps wife was the one who called the cops and gave them the description of the bad guy and her husband, I can see this happening to anyone that is clearing his house improperly and cops already there, without proper info and/or training.

[rl69]

There's a lot of things to die for, but this is a really stupid reason to give up your life. It will amount to a whole lotta nothing.

What a man is willing to die for is never stupid. You may not understand,you may not agree but it's not stupid.

Just think where we would be if the minority of this country didn't stand up to the crown.
What of the men who stood there ground against insurmountable odds in Texas.

I wasn't at this home I have no idea what transpired so I make no judgment on that situation.

The likelihood I will ever be in a situation that I need my firearm is so small it is almost nonexistent, but if the need arises living or dyeing will not be a factor in the decision,only right and wrong.

[merlin101]

What a man is willing to die for is never stupid. You may not understand,you may not agree but it's not stupid.

Just think where we would be if the minority of this country didn't stand up to the crown. .

Poor example! Very few men joined and fought for freedom, IIRC only about 3%.
As to the article it does sound as if the cops entered and shot the old man BEFORE IDing themselves, BUT. Unless you've ever been in a situation with gunfire and people trying to kill you it's difficult to explain just how chaotic and confusing it is. Add in the adrenalin and tunnel vision and the home owners may not have heard the cops kicking in a door and yelling POLICE! DROP THE GUN!! No matter how it happened it's a shame the man died this way.

[rl69]

That's my point, the majority refused to stand up for what was right.

[jsizemore]

from am44mag "Don't walk around your yard or house with a gun in your hand after a self defense shooting. That's just plain common sense."

That's not real smart. Just cuz you took care of 1 doesn't mean there's not more. The police expect that when they show up, why shouldn't I. I know plenty of LEO's and some of them shouldn't be.

[mold maker]

There are four rules to surviving any confrontation with the police.
#1 DISARM, AND ID.
#2 LISTEN AND COMPLY.
#3 LISTEN INTENTLY AND COMPL.
#4 Listen carefully and comply. PERIOD !
You are not in charge, and their every command is of utmost importance.
Listen as if your life depends on it. It literally does.
Rambo was a fictitious character in a Hollywood movie that had no reality involved.
Reality is that shooting first or last at a cop, will get you dead, and nobody wins.

[markshere2]

If you throw your gun away and throw your hands up, more than likely they'd stop shooting.

Snip


Conjecture, based on you applying your mores to Offficer X.

I disagree. Once the bullets fly- it's "katy bar the door"




The police are not the bad guys.

Snip again



Not true in all cases. LOTS of empirical evidence to the contrary.

Many, possibly most, police are good guys. But even the good ones cover for the bad ones - its called a blue wall.

Should things go pear-shaped, I'll be greeted in Valhalla with an escort, thank you very much.

[Thundarstick]

I guess we're supposed to forget about the "no knock"raids on the wrong residence where home owners have been killed meeting a break in "that happened to be the COPS". How about swatting, where the home owner ends up dead because they faced an unknown threat "that turned out to be the SWAT team busting down the door?
I'm not a fan of the direction policing has taken, and yes, I'd probably be killed in my own home if it happened to me, because I'd have a gun in my hand, IN MY HOME, when I was gunned down! NOT RAMBO! Protecting my family from an unidentified threat!

I do have another question. How many of you could've heard any commands after firing a weapon in a closed room?

[jsizemore]

I do have another question. How many of you could've heard any commands after firing a weapon in a closed room?

Having seen this on TV many times, how do you make sense of many folks YELLING commands out of sync with each other.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Should things go pear-shaped,

Huh? A new one! :confused: Is that like things going south?

[Char-Gar]

When I read this thread, I hear lots of chest beating and Tarzan yells.

[Handloader109]

Shoot first say police after. This is what it sounds like happened. Police and a bad shoot. BTW, officer hadn't been cleared in HIS Last murder uh, shooting either from June. Sounds like Bubba needs to find a new job.

[Mr_Sheesh]

And whoever let him go back on active duty NEEDS to find a new line of work, too; Procedures don't work if you don't abide by them!

[glockfan]

There are four rules to surviving any confrontation with the police.
#1 DISARM, AND ID.
#2 LISTEN AND COMPLY.
#3 LISTEN INTENTLY AND COMPL.
#4 Listen carefully and comply. PERIOD !
You are not in charge, and their every command is of utmost importance.
Listen as if your life depends on it. It literally does.
Rambo was a fictitious character in a Hollywood movie that had no reality involved.
Reality is that shooting first or last at a cop, will get you dead, and nobody wins.

this.
what else ? they're legally covered,if you display an aggressive behavior and have a gun,they will shoot . better to comply ,disarm and obey,that way, nothing bad should result from a potential miscommunication between you and them,especially if they're called on a self defence scene
,and they don't know who is who.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Better yet to ask the dispatcher (and insist on it) that they know who is who and maybe even have a place to come to, if you are in a multiple assailant situation, where one of them can talk with you and you can holster your weapon. Anything that defuses the situation makes it more likely for you to survive.

[Lonegun1894]

Conjecture, based on you applying your mores to Offficer X.

I disagree. Once the bullets fly- it's "katy bar the door"




Not true in all cases. LOTS of empirical evidence to the contrary.

Many, possibly most, police are good guys. But even the good ones cover for the bad ones - its called a blue wall.

Should things go pear-shaped, I'll be greeted in Valhalla with an escort, thank you very much.

You know, I have been told this by a couple bad officers, and it didn't stop me from taking their badges and firing them less than a minute later. So what exactly does that make me?

[Mr_Sheesh]

Lonegun1894, it means you're above them in the police hierarchy; Imagine not being able to do that, and one of them does something to harm you. I know of a case in California where the local SWAT team showed up after a drunken party turned bad and the home owner fired into the air to stop the bad neighbors who showed up from winching his trailer into a bonfire they'd been making of his belongings - And their question of the neighbor they met were who the home-owner was, they were planning on shooting him from 100 yards and not asking questions. That seems a little off to me. I don't know the whole story but they weren't planning on paying attention to the force projection tiers at ALL.

And more than one LEO has blatantly lied under oath in court, because they personally believed someone was guilty (which is at least a "little" unethical, seems to me) to try to affect the trial's outcome; Perjury is perjury, who ever is testifying.

City I live now seems to have good officers, which is nice. I saw a news item recently where officers were being paid $15/hour and had basically all quit, though; I suspect this city pays well so it attracts good officers and can keep them. So the quality of officers varies across the US, I know; One city not far enough from here, I wouldn't want to spit on the sidewalk in.

[am44mag]

You know, I have been told this by a couple bad officers, and it didn't stop me from taking their badges and firing them less than a minute later. So what exactly does that make me?

One of the good guys, which there are thankfully an abundance of. One of my criminal justice professors used to talk about dealing with bad officers at his old department. Our campus police chief has also talked to us about what he's experienced and he's done pretty much the same thing you have. Another professor I have is an ex Texas Ranger and he's told us how he'd go above and beyond what is legally required of him just to make sure that people's rights were not violated in any way. I refuse to believe that cops in general are bad just because of a few bad apples who somehow made it through the hiring process. The idea that good cops are protecting the bad ones is idiotic at best. I wouldn't do it, and every officer I have spoken to or listened to for an extended period of time has talked about how they won't do it either.

[Lonegun1894]

am44mag,
I wish more people would actually get to know more officers, because most of us really do try to keep ourselves and each other in check. But, and I'll use myself as an example here. If one of mine screw up beyond what can be repaired with retraining, counseling, etc, and I have no choice but to get rid of them, I will do it quietly and not advertise to the community exactly what happened, but just say they messed up and had to go, and leave it at that. There is no need to air all our dirty laundry and lose the trust of the community UNLESS the problem was bad enough that we have to speak up and say exactly what happened and what we did to fix it. Most problem officers show their true colors before it gets to that level of seriousness. I go out of my way to make sure not to violate anyone's rights, but that is actual Constitutional Rights, not some made up stuff that some people think they have a right to.

Mr. Sheesh,
There is no way that you are unable to fix a problem, IF you have an actual valid problem with the proof to back up your claim. Hierarchy be ****ed. Yes, I out rank my officers, but you know who outranks me? My local citizens! They are the ones who put me in this position, and they are the ones who will someday take me out of it. And that is the way it should be.

"And their question of the neighbor they met were who the home-owner was, they were planning on shooting him from 100 yards and not asking questions. That seems a little off to me. I don't know the whole story but they weren't planning on paying attention to the force projection tiers at ALL."

Without knowing the whole story, neither you nor I are qualified to judge. Officers do not sign up to either assassinate citizens, as you seem to be implying was the case in your example, nor do they volunteer to commit suicide by taking unnecessary risks. So lets get the rest of the story before we jump to conclusions and crucify anyone?

To go one with your post, there is nothing unethical about having personal beliefs. If anything, NOT having personal beliefs would be unhuman. Expressing your opinion when testifying is perfectly acceptable, if it is based on what you know. For example, if I testify that the suspect was of a certain race based on me seeing the suspect, or having been told by a witness who saw the suspect, is NOT racist. However if I get up there and claim, with no actual knowledge of the specific suspect, that the suspect had to have been of a certain race because only that race commits this specific crime, now that would be racist. Understand what I'm trying to convey? Lying is never acceptable, but testifying the truth as best you know it is. Know what else if funny to me about your statement? If an officer lies under oath, they are gotten rid of and will never work in LE again, at least that's the way we do it here. If an officer lies on an application, I will not hire them, and I don't care how small a lie it is. If they lie and I find out later, I will fire them. Same exact principle. All we really have in the end is our word. If I can't trust your word, I won't trust you with the lives and safety of my citizens and officers. If I break my word, they can't trust me either, and need to get rid of me.

I hope the above makes sense. I don't try to be very politically correct, here or on the job either, so some of what I said may ruffle feathers, but if anyone doesn't want an honest answer, don't bother asking me the question. I will answer with the truth, and not any "back-side" kissing.

[rcslotcar]

Sounds to me a lot of armchair commandos here are not going to follow lawful commands. So we will be reading about a lot more Police shootings

[Lonegun1894]

Sounds to me a lot of armchair commandos here are not going to follow lawful commands. So we will be reading about a lot more Police shootings

I really hope you're wrong, but fear that you're right.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Lonegun1894 - I know a good bit of the situation, person who would have been shot is a relative. So I've heard a LOT of the situation, not all though - And I wasn't there. When SWAT pulls in, I would HOPE they try to find out the facts and the current situation, there they drove in and told a neighbor that they were planning to shoot the person who HAD BEEN armed an hour before (because their neighbors tried to burn everything they owned in a bonfire) - At the time, said person was unarmed, nude, and taking a shower in their yard, and they were debating shooting him DESPITE that. The neighbor took them to task, IMO a good thing. To me, even CONSIDERING shooting a nude unarmed human is DESPICABLE, if you're a SWAT team; There's more to it but that's the part that ticked ME off. That's just not right, no matter what - A nude, unarmed human isn't a credible threat to an armed SWAT team. (If that person had been threatening a woman, that changes things, a would-be rapist IS a threat to a single woman, that's different though.)

From what I knew - The lying part was testifying that the defendant, who I know, said something that they never said, in the hope of getting a guilty verdict. Let's say you were accused of a serious crime, and an officer testified that you'd confessed that you did it, and that they had that on tape, to the court - Even though on tape you'd told them that you hadn't - Would you see that as acceptable? I sure don't. Said officer didn't face any consequences to their perjury at all. I'm not talking about something like racism but about an malicious, intentional falsehood, here. I'd heard the discussion and knew what WAS and WASN'T said. Big fat LIE there.

Agreed that most officers are honest, certainly - A good thing. Just that sometimes in a "he said, she said" situation it's rather hard to prove that an officer lied - A Jury will, usually, take an officers' word over a defendant's, understandably if sadly in rare cases.

And yeah I know that LOTS of defendants lie through their teeth,even there, two wrongs don't make a right, though.