What kind of steel in a highwall?

[JMtoolman]

Went to the Missoula gun show and found a highwall castings to make a replica. I was told it was put out by a company called "Bolder River Foundry". No instructions on assembly, but not too worried about that. Does anyone know what the steel the foundry used in there castings? 4140, or 8620 are the two that I am familiar with for heat treating. But would like to know for sure what it is. I have a 45-70 barrel already on hand for the rifle. It will be a good project for next winter. Best regards, the toolman.

[Gunlaker]

I do not know the answer, but I can tell you that the Boulder River Foundry is owned by Shiloh Sharps. I'm sure they'd be happy to answer.

Chris.

[country gent]

Is this a investment casting or a forging? sometimes a spark test will give a fair idea of what a material is by judging the size shape and intensity of the sparks when touched lightly to a grinding wheel. If you have known samples of the various steels handy and can compare you can get pretty good idea

[oldred]

I realize it's no real help since I don't know for "certain" but I am almost sure the Boulder River castings are 8620. That's what I was told several years ago by a source that was knowledgeable about them, that and the fact they are usually Color Case hardened leads me to believe it is 8620. 4140 is of course considered a poor candidate for Color Casing and in fact doing it is very controversial (for a darn good reason!) so I doubt seriously BRF would use 4140. 8620 is nearly as strong as the 4140 and can easily be Case Hardened or Color Cased and yields very nice colors when done properly, besides 8620 is way stronger than necessary for a HighWall and thus every bit as good as 4140 plus it has the added benefit of Color Casing if so desired.

I eventually just dropped the idea of using one of those castings and decided to build my rifles using 4140PH bar stock so no heat treating was necessary, I have built three of them using this method and IMHO it is probably no harder to do than working with a casting.

One of those rifles is a scaled down HighWall that has a switch barrel design presently in 22 Mag only but if I can ever get around to it I wanted to have barrels cambered for 218 Bee, 25-20 and 32-20, these calibers all being based on the same case. That was the original plan but after I fitted it with the 22 Mag I have just been shooting it that way and the rest of the project kind of got shoved to the back burner, however your choice of caliber there really got my attention! I have said many times here that I would like to see more folks get involved in home building firearms and seeing another HighWall in the works is extremely interesting indeed, please keep us posted on the progress!

Oops, I apparently got that 25-20 caliber confused with the other HighWall thread, no matter those HighWalls are an excellent rifle for 45/70 or any of the large caliber. Rifle strength for heavy loads when correctly built is not an issue but your shoulder might be! :)

[Gunlaker]

Oldred, if I had to guess I would actually say it's probably 4140. Boulder River Foundry is owned by Shiloh and this is where the Shiloh receivers come from. They are made of 4140 according to the Shiloh web site so I imagine that their highwall castings are too.

The easiest way to be 100% certain is to call them. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to answer. They have excellent customer service.

Chris.

[oldred]

Oldred, if I had to guess I would actually say it's probably 4140. Boulder River Foundry is owned by Shiloh and this is where the Shiloh receivers come from. They are made of 4140 according to the Shiloh web site so I imagine that their highwall castings are too.

The easiest way to be 100% certain is to call them. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to answer. They have excellent customer service.

Chris.

It really puzzles me that they would be made of 4140 unless any Color Casing is a chemical kind of fake coloring, are you sure all of the models are? A receiver made of 4140 "can" be Color Cased at the expense of reduced strength and less ductility and even Turnbull will do it on some actions (the wisdom of doing this is debatable!). Unless I am mistaken every manufacturer of any action will warn not to do it, for a good reason, through hardening alloys such as 4140 MUST be tempered, or drawn back, to a slightly softer and more ductile condition otherwise they will be brittle and prone to cracking, tempering would destroy Case Colors. It's a well known steel industry standard that through hardening alloys such as 4140 are NEVER used in the as quenched condition, as would be necessary for coloring, due to the unavoidable brittleness.

[oldred]

Ok this has me a bit puzzled so I asked Mr Google about it and although I have yet to find out anything definitive from Boulder River Foundry it seems the C Sharps 1885 High/Low Wall receivers are made from 8620.

About mid-page the description right under the 1885 receiver picture on the left where it says "configure your item",

http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detail/50/1885-Highwall-Rifle-Action.html


This one is a bit harder to find but about half way down in the descriptions under pictures of receivers it appears all of them are 8620 even the Sharps models.

https://csharpsarms.com/dynamic/configuration/CSharps_Catalog_05_CONTENT_CATALOG_PDF.pdf

Of course this is C Sharps and not BRF who seems not to have a website or if they do it appears to be private.

Not at all trying to disagree with anyone, honestly it just got my curiosity up and I want to know, I will see if I can contact BRF and ask them directly.

[Gunlaker]

Oldred what you say makes sense to me regarding the color casing of the steel and what I've read elsewhere. I'm definitely no metalurgist :-). I'm just going by what the Shiloh Sharps site says their guns are made of, and the fact that the castings are made at their Boulder River Foundry next door.

It is possible that there is a mistake on the Shiloh web site though ( it's all in the "About" section ).

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Another thing to add is that Shiloh offers standard case colors, which is, according to what Kirk wrote on the forum, an actual case hardening, not a cyanide treatment. The other available option is a pack hardening which is more like the original finish.

If you do call them, please let us know what they say.

Chris.

[oldred]

Oldred what you say makes sense to me regarding the color casing of the steel and what I've read elsewhere. I'm definitely no metalurgist :-). I'm just going by what the Shiloh Sharps site says their guns are made of, and the fact that the castings are made at their Boulder River Foundry next door.

It is possible that there is a mistake on the Shiloh web site though ( it's all in the "About" section ).

Chris.

I am sure there is no mistake on the Shiloh website but I did make a minor one myself in my post when I said "Of course this is C Sharps and not BRF" I meant to also say "or Shiloh" but I see now I failed to add that part. I don't doubt what you said about the steel they used and I never intended to disagree. I am simply puzzled about the method they use to color the receivers since Color Case Hardening won't work on 4140, it "can" be done but not without damaging the metal if traditional CCH is done. I suspect they have been using a similar method to what Turnbull uses and for 4140 they (Turnbull) use a different method than the traditional Bone charcoal carbon pack method used for other steels that is used for most rifles. They are very tight lipped about what they do, as I would expect I would be also if I were in their business, however it's very likely they use a chemical bath containing Potassium and Sodium Cyanide salts and of course the proper heating method which would be critical. This is a known process and can be used to color metals such as CM alloys but obviously it's not something that could be done in a small shop without the proper equipment, just the hot salts and never mind the cyanide would be a massive undertaking but a place like Shiloh or Turnbull could very well be doing that I suppose. That process is a true Color "HARDENING" process but not a "CASE" hardening process since those alloys do not "case" and will harden all the way through and not just a thin skin (or "case") around a still soft and ductile core like normal steels. Something like that, while not a true CCH, is still a combination heating and coloring process that yields nice colors that are very durable but uses extremely dangerous chemicals and process color the metal surface without actually affecting the heat treated condition, we can only guess since neither outfit (Shiloh or Turnbull will say and we can't blame them for trade secrets).

[oldred]

Another thing to add is that Shiloh offers standard case colors, which is, according to what Kirk wrote on the forum, an actual case hardening, not a cyanide treatment. The other available option is a pack hardening which is more like the original finish.

If you do call them, please let us know what they say.

Chris.

That was posted while I was making the above reply, that's what's puzzling no matter what there simply is no way to traditionally color case harden any steel with 30 points of carbon or more, it may color OK but the metal will harden all the way through and that's why it's called through hardening steel then it can't be tempered without destroying the colors. This is not opinion it's a well established metallurgical fact that is fairly easily verified by going to any one of a bunch of metal supplier sites and checking the engineering data, even the well known and well respected gunsmith supply Brownells warns in bold letters not to attempt to color case any CM or through hardening steel. In the first place just the quench alone would be an extreme shock to the metal since 4140 is an oil hardening steel, water cools way too fast and would leave the metal much too stressed even if it didn't crack which it likely would, colors can not be produced in oil and cold water must be used -the colder the better. Even when the part can be quenched without major distortion and/or cracking, and this can sometimes be done, the problem is the steel would be way too hard and brittle unless it was then tempered at a lower temperature that would still be way too high to prevent destroying the colors, again not just opinion but easily verifiable engineering fact. With the exception of Turnbull who uses a propitiatory process that is almost certainly the Potassium and Cyanide salts bath I don't know of any outfit that does CCH that will do a 4140 receiver for the reasons given. Not sure what they are doing at Shiloh but if he is saying they do indeed use a traditional carbon pack method on 4140 they are bucking all known engineering and metallurgical knowledge and doing something that industry will adamantly warn against doing.

[john.k]

I ve seen a number of italian replicas with color/ful hardening effect,but not hard,at all.So its obviously possible to apply the colors with a chemical bath ,like bluing..........Color aside,its also a well known fact that 4100 series wont take up carbon,which is why there is no 4120........the 4300 series will ...I have also seen impressive colors develop in steel that was tempered in a cyanide bath as a heating medium....but no one uses a cyanide pot any more.......we always had one hot all day when I was a lad.........cyanide is heat without scaling or decarb....work comes out shiny from quenching,not crusted with oxide............but the quenching water is a poison........ a biodegradable one.............A hundred and fifty years ago,making cyanide was a cottage industry.....often done in the domestic kitchen.

[oldred]

Not sure what you mean by 4140 won't take up carbon? Not disagreeing just not sure what's meant by that.

One of the (many) serious problems with traditional carbon packing of these steels is that absorbing carbon into the surface of a steel that is already .38 to .43 such as 4140 will result it a very brittle and crack prone surface? And that's only part of the problem! Low carbon steels, mild steels etc use just this very process to attain a surface hardness where none would occur without the addition of more carbon and since this only goes a few thousandths deep it results in only the surface becoming hard thus forming a hard skin or "case" encasing the metal part. Since the inside of the part can not absorb more carbon it will remain soft and ductile just as it was before the surface was carbonized and hardened. The problem with attempting to color case harden alloys such as 4140 is that the very makeup of the metal that will harden at the surface will harden all the way through unlike the normal steels.

I assume from your post that you of course already know all that but it is why I can't understand why the Shiloh site, or whoever, would say that they offer traditional CCH for their 4140 receivers when it goes against all metallurgical teaching for the last 100 years or more?

[john.k]

Yes,contact any heat treater and ask .....hours of carburising time ,and a couple of thou.........4100 doesnt take up carbon.....no ,I dont know why..........if I was to make anything ,I would use 4140 HT..........the few guns Ive made ,the heat treaters wanted 5X as much as the cost of the steel......hence bypass them,and into the bargain ,so much 4140HT is sold,its dirt cheap.....it also seems to me to be modified to be free machining....Even if you do your own furnace work,four hours or so heat aint free,especially for one small reciever and a couple of other bits.......EDIT.....buy a rough reciever casting at a gunshow...theres a good chance its a test piece for the tooling,or a reject salavaged from the scrap bin out the back of the factory....either way,I wouldnt waste time with it.

[john.k]

But ,its not right to say 4140 cant be "skin "hardened .......millions of tons is induction hardened to produce a 2-3mm hard case for bucket pins and piston rods every year.....A company I deal with does nothing else than induction hardening 4140 bar...

[oldred]

But ,its not right to say 4140 cant be "skin "hardened .......millions of tons is induction hardened to produce a 2-3mm hard case for bucket pins and piston rods every year.....A company I deal with does nothing else than induction hardening 4140 bar...

Yes of course you are right about spot hardening only a portion of a 4140/4150 part, only the teeth on some gears for example, the entire outside surface of pins, etc through induction hardening and I myself have used many of these parts and even done some induction hardening myself. This however is an entirely different process than the traditional case hardening we have been discussing and involves heating only the portion of the metal that is to be hardened while leaving the rest of the part below critical temperature, this is done for exactly the same reasons traditional case hardening would be a terrible thing to do to a 4140 rifle receiver! This is unlike the carbon pack method that produces a thin skin or "case" where the entire part is brought up to the critical point and held there allowing the metallurgical changes to take place that will result in hardening (and sometimes surface coloring) when quenched. So when I said a 4140 part can not be case hardened I meant that it can not be done like traditional case hardening using the carbon pack method, induction spot hardening is a whole 'nother animal and that certainly can be done but it does not apply in any way to the CCH we have been discussing.

This also begs the question of why is induction hardening done to those pins you use as an example? Why not just heat and quench the entire pin? It certainly would get just as hard and wear resistant but the problem is of course it would be pretty much the same all the way through resulting in a pin that might fracture under load due to interior brittleness. By induction heating only selected areas the hardening can be restricted to the surface only thus allowing the interior of the pin to remain strong and ductile. If a 4140 Rifle receiver is then hardened by the pack method it absolutely will be hardened all the way through, it's just a well known and indisputable mechanical property of 4140 and other through hardening steels, so for exactly the same reasons induction hardening is used on those pins to retain strength it makes no sense that anyone would carbon pack a rifle receiver??????

If Caterpillar Tractor, for example, would specify it's bulldozer push-arm pins are to be induction hardened instead of a simple heat and quench why would we heat and quench a rifle receiver?

[oldred]

I did a quick search and the first link that came up is a heat treat engineering outfit called Metlab, here's what they have to say about hardening through hardened steels such as the ChromeMoly like 4140,

Metal Tempering

"Tempering is done to develop the required combination of hardness, strength and toughness or to relieve the brittleness of fully hardened steels. Steels are never used in the as quenched condition. The combination of quenching and tempering is important to make tough parts"

Notice the part about steels are NEVER used in the as quenched condition, it goes on to say that "tempering is important to make tough parts", but tempering involves heating to temperatures that would certainly destroy any coloring achieved by the process? Again this is not just opinion but proven engineering fact established in industry for over a hundred years and can be verified by any number of metal and engineering sites so the claim that Shiloh seems to be making that they offer traditional pack hardening of 4140 receivers just makes no sense.

[James Wisner]

Boulder River Foundry phone # is 406-932-6540

When I called and talked to them last year about the 1885 Highwall parts they cast I was told they was from 8620 steel.

JW

[oldred]

Boulder River Foundry phone # is 406-932-6540

When I called and talked to them last year about the 1885 Highwall parts they cast I was told they was from 8620 steel.

JW

Ok that makes two that I have heard say they were told by BRF that 8620 was used, I would have guessed that it was 8620 anyway myself. Not surprising as 8620 is a great choice for these, I would have used it myself instead of the 4140 but I had the 4140PH on hand and it didn't need follow-up heat treating as an added advantage. 8620 is way stronger than the steel originally used for HighWalls but due to the ingenious design of the things even made from the early steels they were, and still are, incredibly strong!

FWIW, there was an Ebay seller a few weeks ago that had Sharps and HighWall receiver castings for sale and even some complete castings kits, I even started a thread on this to give those who might be interested a heads-up, he included an analysis sheet in the listing details that had these to be simply a type of mild steel (it's highly unlikely these were from the same source as the Shiloh castings, probably the now defunct Story Castings outfit from a few years ago but that's just a guess). He had maybe 25 or 30 or even more, I don't remember now, of the Sharps receivers and quite a few of the complete kits, the receivers were $100 and the receiver with a parts set was $200 IIRC, these sold out fast at first then the last few were still up a couple weeks later when I checked. The HighWall castings were $175 and disappeared within hours of being listed.


Just checked and the guy still has some of the Sharps sets left, he apparently has 4 complete castings kits for $200 and 3 receiver only castings for $100. I think maybe posting an Ebay link violates forum rules but if anyone might be interested just search on Ebay for "Raw Sharps Casting".

I just ran across these a while back and have absolutely no connection what-so-ever to them or the seller.

[Preacher Jim]

i know the sharps kit i received is a good steel well cast.

[oldred]

i know the sharps kit i received is a good steel well cast.

Would you mind telling us where it came from?

Also how about your project, is it well along, just started, finished or just somewhere in between? Inquiring minds want to know these things! :-D

Seriously it would be great if we could get a bunch of builders together to discuss their projects, pics and info exchanged could not only be helpful but could also be a great inspiration to those who want to do this but just can't seem to take the plunge.

[Chill Wills]

I have a Boulder River Foundry highwall kit. Likely the same as the op.

It is NOT as mentioned above.... "theres a good chance its a test piece for the tooling,or a reject salavaged from the scrap bin out the back of the factory....either way,I wouldnt waste time with it. "

The paperwork with it states it is cast of 8620 steel and as old red states, 8620 is suitable for case colors and the 4140 is not but can be blued. 8620 fits the bill for strength and finish.

I have no idea what is on the Shiloh web-sight and do not want to get into that other than to say maybe action parts may be 4140? Just for the knowledge of it, it would be easy enough to ask Kirk on their forum.

CW

[Chill Wills]

To the OP, I have not started on my kit. I did start writing an order of operation so I don't get going on it and end up doing something I wish I had not, or done in a different order and made the whole project harder.
I never founds plans for this kit. If you do, or just start in on it, let me know what happens.
CW

[M-Tecs]

All the 1885 cast kits I have seen have been 8620. If a scrap yard is handy have it XRF Analyzed

[oldred]

I never founds plans for this kit.CW

I recently got possession of the set of plans that are sold on Ebay, I have mentioned several times here as having looked them over but they belonged to a buddy of mine who bought them and now after about 8 years of off-on work on his kit he just recently gave up. This has nothing to do with difficulty of the build He just never spent much time on it and has now lost all interest, anyway a few weeks ago he gave me the plans set he had been working from. These plans are available on Ebay for about $30 and they are excellent quality, very sharply printed and very complete, included are drawings for parts for several versions such as single and double set triggers, standard triggers, etc. These plans include every single piece and dimension right down to the smallest pins and screws, wire sizes and dimensions for coil springs, etc.

There is talk of the plans set from ASSRA (not sure if these are the same or not) having several serious errors and exclusions but I have gone over this entire set of prints over the last few years trying to help my buddy who was building from them and I have found only one error (on the lever) which is no problem at all if the builder is aware of it before making the lever. If someone needs a set of plans I would recommend these without hesitation, just search "Winchester 1885 High Wall rifle drawings" (High Wall, two words) on Ebay.

This seller also has many other plans sets from time to time, Sharps, Colt 1911, M1 Carbine plus several more and if the HighWall prints are any indication then the others are likely high quality and a really good buy also.

[uscra112]

Just speaking as a superannuated automotive make-a-nickel penguineer, everything that <<oldred>> has posted agrees with my training and experience.

[john.k]

I did not mention Boulder River Foundry or their products.......... "a rough casting bought at a gun show" and "of uncertain origin".......(supposed/claimed to be from BRF).......is what I said.......And I would be certain BRF would not be happy at that situation,and might even investigate .