Paper patch bullet problem

[flatsguide]

I wanted to start a new thread about the bullet problems I’m having but could not copy and paste my photos from the Sight Settings thread I started. If you are curious and want to help out zip over to the Sight Setting thread I started in the Black Powder Paper Patch forum. Scroll down towards the end of the first page.
Thanks a Richard

[BRUCE MOULDS]

richard,
you clearly have a gas cutting problem that needs to go away.
sharps rifle co used to sell patching paper 0.001, 0.0015, and 0.002" thick.
a basic rule of thumb is use the thickest bullet and thinnest paper you can.
seth cole 55w will add 0.005" to a bullet when patched wet, and nearly 0.006 when patched dry, and is available repeatedly.
your bullets seem to be getting a good wack in the bum which should initiate bumpup well.
also rifling marks look not too bad.
the odg used chambers that required little or no bumpup to seal the bullet in the case.
part of the problem could be that your case necks have to bump up 0.010 or thereabouts, and if this in not happening in a friendly way, gas could leak through a gap there.
i have to swallow my craw suggesting this, but 20:1 might be better here.
you will lose some b.c. from nose setback, but if it groups consistently you will be in front.
some of us are now doing the odg bullet to chamber fit with greaser chambers, by using 2 diameter bullets.
the bit that fits in the case patches to fit a fired neck slip fit, and hardly has to bump up at all, giving a virtually instantanious seal.
i shoot 12:1 this way with no problems.
kal will custom make you a mould, as will brooks.
the base part of the bullet needs to be 1/8" long or a little more, assuming no freebore, then there is a transition taking the diameter down to patch to bore.
if you have freebore, add that length to the 1/8"
the transition angle is the same as your leade/throat angle.
that said, a lot of guys get straight sided bore diameter bullets to shoot well, in greaser chambers.
my own cases are annealed just a little softer than for smokeless, and this seems to work well.
good luck and thinking on your journey, as it it solving issues that leads to satisfaction.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Lead pot]

Richard I looked at your bullets and the gas cuts are bad. I don't see any problems with slump or any nose setback with your 1/16 alloy. The .4427 diameter bullet is not a problem as well as the wad your using. You might try adding a milk carton wad or one cut from a serial box to give a little more seal.

The 25# translucent tracing paper I would do away with. It is a very hard paper that is just not sealing the grooves and letting the gas pass through. I don't like paper thinner then the depth of the groove either.
.0018" or .002" thick paper will work just fine with your bullet diameter. Do away with the translucent paper and look on the paper mill web site and get some of their onion skin or go to a Staples and get a roll of 55 W.
Good paper is almost impossible to find since the typewriter became obsolete like Southworth cockle finish 75 or 100% cotton paper unless you have a old down town office supply store that might have some collecting dust on a shelf in their back room.
thepapermillstore.com item#ONSKN-N will work fine with your bullet.

Let me ask if you know the depth of your grooves.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Larger bullet, or a grease cookie , or felt wad would be a good place to start.

[Lead pot]

Don that bullet is just fine as it is. I use the same bullet and diameter as Richard does in my .45-90 with just a couple grains more of powder (83) and I have shot 10 for 10 at the MT. 1000 a 10 for 10 at Baker 1023 yards and a 87-1 and the second relay a 85-2 with one cross fire helping my neighbor with a X :). That bullet will shoot just fine as is. Yes a lube wad would help sealing off the gas cuts.

Kurt

[flatsguide]

Well guys, a big thanks! We may have found the solution. I loaded three loads, not changing anything but the wad package.
First load was with a .032 LDPE and a newspaper print wad on top of that. Recovered bullet was perfectly engraved and the small finning at the base were the lands displaced the lead was even and symmetrical.
Second load had two .032 LDPE wads and a newsprint on top of that. The recovered bullet was the same as above.
The third load had a .125 thick un-lubricated felt wad with milk container over powder wad. The recovered bullet was severely gas cut.

I guess the LDPE compresses and expands in diameter well enough to seal the bore. The cases are sealing well too as there in no sign of residue on the sides of the fired cases. I load up a few rounds with the single .032 LDPE wad and see what 5he accuracy looks like. I’ll post the resulting targets here...
Thanks again guys
Regards, Richard

[Don McDowell]

Glad you got the gas cutting stopped
Looking forward to see what the target tells you


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[flatsguide]

Hey Kurt, The groove depth is .004. Hi Don, looking forward to the target tells me too...
Best Richard

[rfd]

good going richard! i also use ldpe wads in .060" thickness, punched out with a fred cornell press punch die. the ldpe wad sure makes a good performance difference.

[Distant Thunder]

rfd is 100% correct just, go to a .060" LDPE wad for best results. They have almost always work best for me and I end up using them so now I just save myself a lot of headaches and start with them. There have been a few times when other types of wads have worked as well or almost as well as .060" LDPE, but it's just easier to have one material on hand and punch out whatever caliber wads I need.

DT

[Gunlaker]

Flatsguide, if you want to find paper that will patch that bullet up to 0.450" try looking on the internet for esleeck 8 lb onionskin paper. I bought a bunch of it from BACO years ago, and some more from a place on the internet last year. It's around 0.002" thick which works perfectly for me. I also use a lot of Seth Cole 55W, but it is too thin for that diameter bullet.

I also agree with the others on a 0.060" LDPE wad. That wad, and a case full of Swiss 1.5Fg ( or Swiss Fg in my .45-2.6" case ) works very well in all of my rifles.

Chris.

[flatsguide]

Fortunately I have a Cornell punch. I’ll need to order some sheet LDPE .063 thick. It may be that the .032 LDPE is borderline. Meanwhile I’ll double up on the .032 wads.
Like Kurt was saying about the paper I’m using, although it is the right thickness for a nice fit, it is hard and may not be as tough as it could be. Another case of maybe being marginal. Chris, I have some of the Seth Cole paper but it is too thin for this bullet as you say. I will search for the Esleeck 8# onion skin.
All good info to think about guys and a lot of variable to fool with to dial in a good load.
Stay tooned.
Regards, Richard

[BRUCE MOULDS]

i tend to differ from some guys,
but i now make it a rule for a double layer of paper to be less than the depth of rifling, and certainly no more.
this is with bullets that slide into the rifling with a little friction.
keep safe,
bruce.

[flatsguide]

Bruce,
What are your thoughts behind the reasoning for double paper to be less than the groove depth. that fits in with a lot of what I have read; use thin paper and big bullet.

[ian45662]

Awesome! I have had good luck with the .060 Polly wads also. I was using the fiber wads but for me the Pollys seem to preform a little better.


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[rfd]

richard, you may wish to give fidelity 9# onion skin paper (paper mill store) a go with yer slick. PM me with yer snail mail address and i'll send ya some to test out.

[flatsguide]

rfd, just shot you a PM. Thank you for your kind offer. I have eight rounds loaded up with 76.5 gns of Swiss 1.5 and two .032 LDPE wads hope to get t9 try them tomorrow.
Thanks again, Richard

[rfd]

in the mail and on the way to ya, richard.

[flatsguide]

Thank you Sir!
Best Richard