Progressive problems...

[mdr8088]

So, a couple months ago I purchased one of the new Lee breachlock progressive presses. I’ve reloaded for about 8 years and have been using a Lee classic cast. I probably should have left well enough alone. I’ve loaded 300 blackout and 9mm on the press with only a couple of problems. I got a new set of the safety prime arms. Lets just say for the first two hundred rounds it dropped 35% of the primers, then it started working fine. I mis the priming arm every once in a while, but those are the only dropped primers. I’m still having problems with the universal case feeder popping cases out. It’s like the weight of the cases are to much to let the bottom case slide out without falling over or springing away from the slidder. So, last night I tried loading .45 acp and had a problem I can’t figure out. I’m loading pcbs and had problems with my OALs varrying from 1.255 to 1.285. With the 9mm and 300 blackout I loaded, the variance was only a few thousands. My powder coatings not the best, but it won’t account for what happened last night. I cleaned the lee seater die i was using, but that didn’t help. I pulled the shellplate, it was tight and clean. I pulled all the dies, they’re all lee by the way. Cleaned and reinstalled them. I made sure the sizer and fcd were the same depth touching the shell plate. I backed the seater out 3 full turns, cleaned and lubed the die thorouly, but still getting OALs all over the place. Shell plate doesn’t move. Powder through die doesn’t seem to be causing this either. I’m out of Ideas. I didn’t have problems with the othe calibers I loaded. I have no clue?

[trixter]

Short story: I have loaded since the 80's. Lee 'hammer' loader, to a single stage 2 or 3 of them then a Lee classic cast turret ( which I love) , then a lee loadmaster, to a RCBS Pro 2000, back to the Lee classic cast turret, and was happy for a long time. Well when the new Lee progressive came out, I looked, liked and bought it. Now I know it is all my fault but I would forget the primer every once in a while. When I remembered it the whole thing was great. I don't know, I just could not get the sequence right often enough and sold it too. All of the progressive reloaders have primer problems, so now I am back to my reliable and controllable Lee Classic Cast turret press with the 'Inline Fabrication' reverse direction and kicker kit on it, and I am so happy. So little maintenance and many, many, many rounds trouble free. I'm no expert by any means but I have and still do abide by the K.I.S.S. principle. Happy handle pulling my friends. Shoot, reload, repeat often.

[mdr8088]

I can understand that. I forgot a couple of primers and boolits in the last reloading session while I was fighting the OAL problem. You think it would be simple to remember a primer at the top and a boolit at the bottom, but... it will probably take years to retrain my single stage brain. Lol

[kmw1954]

I have been looking at this press for a few months but haven't moved to buy one yet. There are a couple good threads on another forum that I am following which keeps me going back and forth. Right now I am using an old Lee 3 hole turret press along with a Lee Pro 1000 press. I am very happy with both and they serve me well. The issue I recently came across is with a Witness 45acp pistol that has a chamber so tight the only way I can get reliable seating is to use a Factory Crimp Die to finish with. Well neither of the presses I use allow a 4th die which is what stirred my interest in the Breech Lock Pro.. So right now I'm torn between that or a new Lee Value 4 hole turret press.

I would think that those using the Lee Classic Cast Turret with the Safety Prime would adjust to this press quite well.

[knifemaker]

If you can afford to do so, forget the lee progressive and get a Dillon Square Deal or 550 progressive press. Years ago I gave my Lee 1000 away due to many hiccups with primer system and bought a Dillon 550 and have not looked back after many thousands of reloaded ammo for 6 different handgun calibers. I also have a square deal press that I only use for small pistol primers loading 38 spec. 357 mag. and 9 mm and keep the 550 set up for large pistol primers.

[kmw1954]

If you can afford to do so, forget the lee progressive and get a Dillon Square Deal or 550 progressive press. Years ago I gave my Lee 1000 away due to many hiccups with primer system and bought a Dillon 550 and have not looked back after many thousands of reloaded ammo for 6 different handgun calibers. I also have a square deal press that I only use for small pistol primers loading 38 spec. 357 mag. and 9 mm and keep the 550 set up for large pistol primers.

Sorry but your argument doesn't fit my thinking. I am glad you are happy with your press and it suites your need. Spending $300.00+ dollars or more for a used Dillon Square Deal press or a 550 press just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when I can spend less than $125.00, have a brand new press and still use everything I already have from my other presses. Also if you noticed I mentioned that I was quite happy with the presses I have and will be keeping them. Not replacing them! So no I am not interested in buying a Dillon press for any reason.

[mdr8088]

Lets not argue, my budget procluded a Dillon. I do like the callender girls... My .45 problems are not with the press. I actually like the press. I thought my problem might be in the shell plate being warped or drilled wrong, but there is no woble in it, its level and looks straight. Going to try it again tonight. I did find a lot of brass residue in both the seating and FCD. I’ve never seen that in a seeting die that I’m not crimping with? I only did 93 rounds, I’ve done 900 or so 9mm rounds on this press and never had that. The dies are newer, could there be a problem there? I’m open to any ideas or theories? Thanks.

[starnbar]

If you mic your 45 cases you will find in used cases there is a lot of variance in oal you might get a bunch of all the same h/s and trim to length then see if that cuts down on your oal issue.

[jmorris]

If I find myself in an inexplicable situation I either back up or start over.

I would suggest taking those dies back to your single stage and using the same components load enough rounds you can get a sense of its consistency, then go back and set them up on your progressive.

If you are getting a .030” difference in consistency from the single stage to progressive, something is broken or you are not making complete strokes.

[Hossfly]

All progressive presses run into problems from time to time. If keep clean and in excellent working condition they work well with clean and proper cases, but when you get irregular shaped cases being different lengths or shapes like poor painted surfaces they will not perform as originally designed. When i want to test for accuracy or run ladder test i go slow and trickle powder. Using a single stage press. When going for volume i use a progressive. Don’t know if this helps but once I’ve found a problem with whatever caused the problem they work fine no mater who built it.

[mdi]

If you mic your 45 cases you will find in used cases there is a lot of variance in oal you might get a bunch of all the same h/s and trim to length then see if that cuts down on your oal issue.

Just wondering; how does case length affect OAL? I measure from the case head to the tip of the bullet to get OAL.

[Kenstone]

Lets not argue, my budget procluded a Dillon. I do like the callender girls... My .45 problems are not with the press. I actually like the press. I thought my problem might be in the shell plate being warped or drilled wrong, but there is no woble in it, its level and looks straight. Going to try it again tonight. I did find a lot of brass residue in both the seating and FCD. I’ve never seen that in a seeting die that I’m not crimping with? I only did 93 rounds, I’ve done 900 or so 9mm rounds on this press and never had that. The dies are newer, could there be a problem there? I’m open to any ideas or theories? Thanks.
I have found that once fired and new brass have small burrs on both the ID and OD of the case mouth that end up in the seating/crimping die if not removed.

Because you describe only having this OAL spread with 45 ACP/ not 9mm, I'd look at the seating stem profile, and where the bullet contacts it, for variation.
:grin:

[kmw1954]

mdr8088 I am seriously looking at adding one of these presses to my bench just because of the problem I have loading this Witness pistol.

Loading on both a Lee Pro1000 and a Lee turret press I can see little difference in the whole process or setup. The suggestion jmorris makes of moving to a single stage press to test consistency is a good one. Also I will add that I have 2 boxes of Xtreme plated bullets that I am having length problems with and I have to believe it is the irregularity of the bullet shape causing the problem. If the Lee seating stem is not contacting the bullet at the same spot from bullet to bullet you will get a variation in length. I know that my Lee seating dies do not contact the bullet at the very tip. With these 2 boxes I am getting variations of 0.010" to 0.015", switch to a different box of the same bullet and the variation drops to just 0.002"/0.003" without changing anything other than the bullet.

[fast ronnie]

Does the seating stem fit the bullet properly? if it doesn't, that could be causing the variation.

[merlin101]

The issue I recently came across is with a Witness 45acp pistol that has a chamber so tight the only way I can get reliable seating is to use a Factory Crimp Die to finish with. Well neither of the presses I use allow a 4th die which is what stirred my interest in the Breech Lock Pro.. So right now I'm torn between that or a new Lee Value 4 hole turret press.

I would think that those using the Lee Classic Cast Turret with the Safety Prime would adjust to this press quite well.

That's where your old single stage press comes in handy, yeah you have to run each shell thru another die/press and it's a whole nother step but it's cheap and you most likely have everything already.

[kmw1954]

That's where your old single stage press comes in handy, yeah you have to run each shell thru another die/press and it's a whole nother step but it's cheap and you most likely have everything already.

This is true but to spend less than $125.00 for another press would make this whole process much more pleasant.

At one point I even tried as many do and work in 2 steps. 1. depriming, sizing and repriming. Then using the powder measure in position 1, seating die in 2 and FCD in position 3. It worked but it just didn't feel comfortable or natural. Then went back to the normal setup and crimping on the other press.

[lightload]

When rim thickness varies among those rounds in a batch, measuring will show variance.

I suggest that you buy another shell plate. If the current one is not true, you will go crazy trying to figure out what's going on. If the new one works, you can send it back to Lee for credit on something else.

I have a large quantity of .45 ACP once fired Speer large primer cases. If you wish to use these in your tests, PM me, and I will send some to you for experimenting. They would allow you to eliminate variables. No charge.

[mdr8088]

I want to thank everyone for the Ideas. I pulled my seating die breachlock bushing and all. I placed it in my single stage breachlock press. I ran the cases through the progresive until they reached station 3. I took the case out and seated the bullet using my single stage press. I received the same results. I took the rounds that were close and placed them back into the progressive and ran them on through the fourth station where my FCD is. No change in oal during the post sizing and crimping. I remembered one of you talked about the seating stem, so I looked at that. My son brought me a magnifying glass after he seen me trying to see how the stem contacted the boolit.... It was a Eureka moment. I noticed my crappy powder coating and something that had gotten into the powdercoat. Its so humid up here in wv and I’m still useing old harbor freight powder coat. My paint was irregular and some of the boolits had granuals of something in the powder coat. Something contaminated my paint. I set several boolits on the back of an ammo box tray for a straight edge and placed the seating stem on top. I used the back end of my calipers to measue from the base of the boolits to the top of the seating stem. The measurements were all over the place. I’m pretty sure this was my culprit. I want to thank you all for the ideas, and my son for the magnifying glass. I guess I have a new tool on my reloading bench, new fresh powdercoat to order, and some irregular boolits to recast. Thanks everyone!

[kmw1954]

mdr8088 good to hear you sorted it out. I had a feeling that this is what you'd find having run into it myself while using plated bullets and just the nature of the seating stem in the Lee die. If the shape of the bullet is not exactly the same you will get variation.

Think of it this way, with the ram of the press at the top of it's stoke that dimension isn't going to change. It will come back to the same spot repeat ably. Same as the die, once it is set it will be a static measurement accept for when used in a turret or bushing which has a loose tolerance. As long as the pressure pushing up on the die is the same the measurement will remain the same. If the pressure varies then the length will vary also. Geometry and Physics.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup even the good progressives some times can be a challenge. Especially primer feeds. I sure wouldn't count on a lee press after having a pro master and a 1000. I would even skip the square deal, there a good press but limit you to pistol calibers and dillion die sets. Pick yourself up the JD power:wink: most reliable progressive press made. A 550. You have to advance by hand but that just makes them more reliable. You can load ANYTHING on it and even use it as a single stage press. You also get a no bs lifetime warrantee on any part that comes with it. If I could have only ONE press for everything it would hands down be my 550.
If you can afford to do so, forget the lee progressive and get a Dillon Square Deal or 550 progressive press. Years ago I gave my Lee 1000 away due to many hiccups with primer system and bought a Dillon 550 and have not looked back after many thousands of reloaded ammo for 6 different handgun calibers. I also have a square deal press that I only use for small pistol primers loading 38 spec. 357 mag. and 9 mm and keep the 550 set up for large pistol primers.

[Kenstone]

I want to thank everyone for the Ideas. I pulled my seating die breachlock bushing and all. I placed it in my single stage breachlock press. I ran the cases through the progresive until they reached station 3. I took the case out and seated the bullet using my single stage press. I received the same results. I took the rounds that were close and placed them back into the progressive and ran them on through the fourth station where my FCD is. No change in oal during the post sizing and crimping. I remembered one of you talked about the seating stem, so I looked at that. My son brought me a magnifying glass after he seen me trying to see how the stem contacted the boolit.... It was a Eureka moment. I noticed my crappy powder coating and something that had gotten into the powdercoat. Its so humid up here in wv and I’m still useing old harbor freight powder coat. My paint was irregular and some of the boolits had granuals of something in the powder coat. Something contaminated my paint. I set several boolits on the back of an ammo box tray for a straight edge and placed the seating stem on top. I used the back end of my calipers to measue from the base of the boolits to the top of the seating stem. The measurements were all over the place. I’m pretty sure this was my culprit. I want to thank you all for the ideas, and my son for the magnifying glass. I guess I have a new tool on my reloading bench, new fresh powdercoat to order, and some irregular boolits to recast. Thanks everyone!

Good to know you have it figured out, looking at what I suggested (1st):
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?364641-Progressive-problems&p=4418537&viewfull=1#post4418537
and had been echoed a few times by others.
:coffeecom

[bgw45]

Lloyd, you just posted my exact experience. My 550 won't be gone till i am.

[Walt]

Lloyd, you just posted my exact experience. My 550 won't be gone till i am.

Yep, Lloyd has the answer to a whole lot of progressive press problems!

[Kenstone]

Yep, Lloyd has the answer to a whole lot of progressive press problems!

Yea, a whole lot of problems, not this one though...
:wink:

[trixter]

I have found that once fired and new brass have small burrs on both the ID and OD of the case mouth that end up in the seating/crimping die if not removed.

Because you describe only having this OAL spread with 45 ACP/ not 9mm, I'd look at the seating stem profile, and where the bullet contacts it, for variation.
:grin:

I shoot a lot of SWC (H&G 68 clone) in my 45 and 9mm. I have found that if you take the seating stem out and turn it over, it works much better that way. (flat end down) With rifle bullets in won't work, but the ogive can be in a little bit different place on each bullet, co consider where the seating stem actually makes contact with the bullet. Just some things to think about