What a pain this prenupt is turning into

[dverna]

Called a local attorney to get a prenuptial agreement drawn up. He asked some questions about my net worth and told me that I could expect the process to take 3-12 months and the cost is a flat rate of $5000. There are two firms that do this kind of work in my area and I hate having to go to a bigger city but I may have to. The other firm is $3-5000.

I am not Bill Gates but I have some assets to safeguard and a special needs son to care for.

If anyone has gone through the process, is this "normal"? If anyone knows a firm in Northern MI they could recommend me let me know. Thanks, in advance!

My fiancé is going to freak when she hears this. BTW, that is my cost only...she will need her own attorney. So $8-10k by the time we are done.

[dbosman]

I'd make some phone calls, for "free" consultations, with down state firms. Grand Rapids, Detroit, Lansing, or Southfield. You might find that taking a weekday road trip worthwhile. Good luck. With only two firms in your area they probably make decent money suing each others clients.

[Gewehr-Guy]

A Trust of some form set up for your son might be more acceptable for your fianc'e, and could be done before you get hitched.

[MyFlatline]

+1 on the Trust and if I was that worried about a prenup, I wouldn't say I do..Sorry been there 3 times already.

[dverna]

Calling more attorneys tomorrow

I have a Special Needs Trust for the son so that is covered and most of my assets are in another trust.

The prenup will address what happens to our estates when we pass, and also assets, alimony, etc if we divorce. Both of us have been divorced so we have learned a few lessons along the way. No need to make the same mistakes again and we have a lot more at stake than a couple of 20 year olds starting out.

I do not understand your comment MyFlatline. I suppose you have nothing left to lose after having three failed marriages, or so much income that it does not matter if you fail again. I am somewhere between those two positions.

[popper]

Is much a common property state? You should be able to declare private property, need to keep all accounts separate. Prenup just agrees to the terms.

[6mm win lee]

Don't get hitched. "Just say no!" - Nancy Reagan. You keep your place she keeps hers. You can bump uglies and then retreat to a neutral corner if needed. I've been successfully divorced thirty one years. "Trust me Luke. I'm your Grandfather."

Just kidding. You are correct to seek out cheaper advise. Lawyers are the parasites of the world. They can only survive by making their fellow citizens think the law is complicated and esoteric and can not understand what they are reading and then charging an arm and a leg for the information or filling out a simple form. I believe it is called a cashectomy

[edp2k]

+1 on the Trust and if I was that worried about a prenup, I wouldn't say I do..Sorry been there 3 times already.

+1000

Judges look at prenups as mere suggestions.

Based on your responses, I'll bet you don't heed any of this advice and argue instead.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I agree if its prenup its a no go , I am divorced and and in this state whats yours before is yours in divorce and as to what one leaves behind the will takes care of that , having said all that if you are that well off to spend that money between the 2 of you on one and its what you both want then shop around for attorneys and the best of luck. I always like to remember the movie jerimiah johnson , the coldest rock god made and i find no tracks.

[MyFlatline]

Calling more attorneys tomorrow

I have a Special Needs Trust for the son so that is covered and most of my assets are in another trust.

The prenup will address what happens to our estates when we pass, and also assets, alimony, etc if we divorce. Both of us have been divorced so we have learned a few lessons along the way. No need to make the same mistakes again and we have a lot more at stake than a couple of 20 year olds starting out.

I do not understand your comment MyFlatline. I suppose you have nothing left to lose after having three failed marriages, or so much income that it does not matter if you fail again. I am somewhere between those two positions.

My comment is, if you are that concerned that she is after your money, then it is not a marriage of love. With my current wife of 25 years, I was urged to get a prenup because I had a business. I declined. No I am not filthy rich as you suggest , probably closer to poor, self employment doesn't always make you a millionaire, just dedicated and a hard worker.

A trust covers your demise, Nothing but honesty covers a divorce.

[Petrol & Powder]

"Nothing but honesty covers a divorce. "

I disagree. A prenuptial agreement covers a divorce. And if she will not sign one, that's a red flag - run away.

I've seen both sides of this many times and those with a prenuptial agreement were better off and happier, even if they stayed married.

I don't have the space here to go into the multitude of reasons that having a prenuptial agreement is desirable. And by the way, a separation agreement is the opposite of a prenuptial agreement and they are both simply contracts.

As for the price, you're paying for a professional's time and a prenuptial agreement is a very individual thing. It's not just a boiler plate contract. You can pay for that by the hour or you can pay a fixed price. At least with a fixed price you know what the cost is up front.

[Lloyd Smale]

I too would have said if your willing to marry then why would you question who your marrying but I too have a special needs son and know full well where your coming from. when I got remarried I didn't do a prenup but went to a lawyer and made a will saying what would happen when I die with the house assests ect and made provisions in it for my son. I made it so my wife had to sign that she understood it and did it in front of two witnesses. Now would this hold up if my wife got some high dollar lawyer to fight it? I don't know. Thing is she sure cant afford a high dollar lawyer anyway and I think I know her enough to know that she wouldn't screw my son or I wouldn't have married her in the first place. I was picky this time. I was single for 13 years before I found one that I not only loved but could really trust and that doesn't go for just the son. Even that is no guarantee though. Personaly I applaud you for taking steps to insure your son is taken care of. I know many that end up with the state because there broke and have nobody that really cares. I want to insure that my son will allways have a warm place to stay, food to eat and a few bucks in his pocket. Bottom line is what your doing is the real test of whether that lady is really worth marrying. If she complains a bit and doesn't understand your love for your son then show her the door real fast!

[rr2241tx]

My daughter-in-law insisted on a pre-nuptial because she was flat broke but had no debt. My son had substantial college loan debt and she didn't want to end up bailing him out if it all went south. Smart girl! He got the pre-nup and got serious about paying off his student loans, got his credit card under control and learned to live within his means. He probably ought to be paying her for financial advice that I'm sure he gets in abundance at the supper table daily. They are each making more money now than I ever made. Still throwing it away on rent so they can live in Austin though.

[snowwolfe]

Some pretty cold opinions here about prenups. Often times it has nothing to do with trust or love. If my wife died before me and I decided to get remarried I would insist on a prenup and move assets over to my son. Last thing I would want is to see everything my dead wife and I worked for our entire life time be passed onto someone's kids or relatives instead of my own son.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Why bother buying the cow when you`re already getting the milk for free? Sounds like this isn`t going to end well, even with a prenup. Remember the line in the movie `Forest Gump` - RUN FOREST RUN!Robert

[smokeywolf]

Just like lawyers are a necessary evil (not all are evil), pre-nups are a necessary evil in today's world. Problem that seems to come up is, while more assets can mean more work for the attorney, they also see more assets as a justification for overcharging you.

[JimB..]

Prenups have a place in the complicated world we live in, needing one is not an indication of a relationship’s quality or durability, that’s just silly talk. My guess is that those of you saying such things have never had or needed one.

[KenH]

I agree with the above, the pre-nup is for divorce, trust/will is for death. Seems like it should be pretty simple, pre-nup simply says that for divorce, what you have going into marriage stays yours if divorce, what's her's before marriage stays her's in case of divorce. What is acquired during marriage is split 50-50..... your credit cards are in your name only, and her credit cards are in her name only.


I have a Special Needs Trust for the son so that is covered and most of my assets are in another trust.
Since you have a trust already set up for your son, and most of your assets are in a different trust it seems you've already got most of it covered.

The prenup will address what happens to our estates when we pass, and also assets, alimony, etc if we divorce.
That's a fairly simple prenup and shouldn't take all that much. Both of ya'll sit down together and work up what ya'll both would like to see. With her working on prenup with you she'll be MUCH more open to the idea. After all, it's protecting her also - if she's got any assets to speak of.

I suspect you can find a boiler plate prenup that will be legal and cover what ya'll need for free, or almost free.

Here's a good site I've used in the past for different legal forms. Note what it says about if these forms are legal in your state or not. Many of them are tailored for certain states. Also, when you click on the prenum link, be sure to look at the links for "If you have substantial assets, you should consider our Prenuptial Agreement specifically tailored for a Husband with Substantial Assets, Wife with Substantial Assets, or Husband and Wife Each with Substantial Assets."
https://www.ilrg.com/forms (this site is free so I do hope it's not violating any rules by posting)

The important thing is for ya'll to work on the prenup together.

[gwpercle]

Don't get married...you ain't gotta !

The couple who have lived across the street from me for 20+ years , she's an artist and photographer and he's a lawyer.....my wife just told me they aren't married...just living together ! I had no idea !

[marlin39a]

Why in the world would a guy want to marry a gal, and then want an insurance policy? You're not sure about her? Don't marry her!

[MyFlatline]

"Nothing but honesty covers a divorce. "

I disagree. A prenuptial agreement covers a divorce. And if she will not sign one, that's a red flag - run away.

I've seen both sides of this many times and those with a prenuptial agreement were better off and happier, even if they stayed married.


.
And you have never seen a prenup tossed?

He who has the most money and best attorney wins.

I stand by my statement. If in doubt don't do it.

[nun2kute]

Never say Never.

That be'n said, I will NEVER get married EVER again. This is not Negotiable by any prenup, postnup or any other agreeable argument. That's just the way it is, Baby !

[Handloader109]

Fergit the prenup. I wouldn't pay 10,000 to maybe get my wishes. Put everything you think your kid will need in the trust. Put everything else you own save for some $ in one or more trusts.
Put someone you TRUST as the executor of your estate and to manage the trusts. Make a will giving your new wife whatever you want of your estate, a percent, or flat $ when you die.
And go get married. Lawyers. Bah,Humbug.

[wills]

Why will it take 3 - 12 months?

[Char-Gar]

It has been a long time since I practiced retail law, but those prices are sky high. I should have stayed with it longer.

BTW...Today, Attorney's use legal drafting software like ProDoc. All you do is fill in a few blanks and push print. You can train a monkey to do it. I knew because up until a year ago, I was training the monkeys...errrr..Paralegals.

[andre3k]

Why will it take 3 - 12 months?

Just an attempt to drag it out and get more money from the client.

[Geezer in NH]

Simple never get married.

Seen many on my dept. get married 4-5 times, pre-nups or no pre-nups. All got screwed as they should have. Marrying more than once IS an Addiction.

Guess what? Don't ever get married EVER.

You will live happier in the long run. BTDT

They try and believe they are equal but when it counts they will pull the women have been used bull.

[JoeJames]

At least in Arkansas; and I don't presume to know Michigan law; Wills can be tricky. In Arkansas unless both parties execute a Joint Will contract; when one dies, the survivor can change his or her Will. Simple as that. In a Joint Will Contract which is a separate document signed by both parties, they agree to give the other party notice should they change their Will. If one is dead, then obviously there can be no notice. In 42 years I've only had two couples agree to a Joint Will Contract, and they both were scrapping pretty good before it was over.

On the other hand a pre-nup scares most lawyers; since if things go South, the first person they look at is who drew it up, and next on the list is the attorney who signed off on it. And that's is why they charge the big bucks.

[Petrol & Powder]

And you have never seen a prenup tossed?

............
Have I ever seen a prenup tossed [sic]?
Not a well drafted one. Contract law is contract law.

[RED BEAR]

I am sorry but if your worried about this then you are with the wrong one. To me marriage is a life time commitment.if you don't feel this way maybe you shouldn't get married. I have always said that if they have to think about it or have conditions then walk away they sent the right one.

[Petrol & Powder]

Marriage is supposed to be a lifetime commitment but if that was always true we wouldn't need divorce laws and divorce lawyers.

If one party in a relationship will not sign a prenuptial, that should be a big red flag. If two people love each other and are committed to each other, a prenuptial agreement shouldn't cause either one to even blink.
If you have a prenuptial agreement and never need it, great! It's like having a homeowners policy in case your house catches on fire but you never need it.

[richhodg66]

Never been through a divorce, still married after 30 years and I suspect we'll be together until the dirt nap.

But...I think drafting up agreements for how things will be is a good idea, especially if you're marrying now that you're mature and actually have a life and property. Good luck on it and hopefully you find a reputable lawyer who isn't out to take advantage of you.

I think the assessment that a lot of people, maybe most people, would be better off if they just stayed unmarried is valid. I've known a surprising number of people who have been married and divorced multiple times. If, God forbid, my marriage ever went south like that, I'd never sign on for it again.

[JoeJames]

Have I ever seen a prenup tossed [sic]?
Not a well drafted one. Contract law is contract law.I don't know about Virginia law, but here you are going into it with essentially one hand tied behind your back starting out; as Arkansas common law frowns on them. For example: unless there is a full and compete disclosure of assets (and that can be touchy) you start out with issues that may come back to haunt.

[fast ronnie]

My wife and I lead a marriage strengthening class. We've been married forty years. Both of us have been married before.

If you need a pre-nup, that means that you shouldn't be getting married in the first place. Marriage is built on trust and if you can't trust someone, then you should NOT get married. You are already saying "I don't know if I am committed enough to make this work."

Marriage takes a 100% commitment. If you are not willing to do that, you are not ready for marriage.

[Piedmont]

It is the woman who files for divorce 70% of the time and men pay %90 of the alimony and child support in America. How lucky do you feel? Even if you are all for commitment she might not see it that way, or might change her mind, and divorce is also often profitable for women. If you are the breadwinner or make significantly more than her I have heard you get to pay her legal bills as she makes your divorce a hellish experience. You pay two sets of legal bills for one divorce. Seems fair.

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't know about Virginia law, but here you are going into it with essentially one hand tied behind your back starting out; as Arkansas common law frowns on them. For example: unless there is a full and compete disclosure of assets (and that can be touchy) you start out with issues that may come back to haunt.

You get what you pay for.

If you want a cheap contract, including a prenuptial agreement, there are certainly lawyers out there that are more than happy to take your money.

You know as well as I do that there are some skilled attorneys and there are some not so skilled attorneys.

While it is true that some divorce law just cannot be side-stepped with a contract and that is how it should be. You can't use a contract to circumvent the law.
However, when pre-marital property is clearly identified in a prenuptial agreement, I've never seen the ownership of that property disturbed by a court.

[Petrol & Powder]

My wife and I lead a marriage strengthening class. We've been married forty years. Both of us have been married before.

If you need a pre-nup, that means that you shouldn't be getting married in the first place. Marriage is built on trust and if you can't trust someone, then you should NOT get married. You are already saying "I don't know if I am committed enough to make this work."

Marriage takes a 100% commitment. If you are not willing to do that, you are not ready for marriage.

I disagree.
A prenuptial agreement is like insurance. You hope you don't need it and if it turns out you never use it, great. But, if the worst happens, both of you are better off.

If two people are committed to each other, they should have no problem entering into an agreement that will only effect them in the event of a divorce. I think prenuptial agreements make unions stronger because there's nothing to be gained by dissolving the relationship and everything to be gained working to preserve it.

The commitment to the marriage is still 100%. The only thing that changes is that if the marriage doesn't work, the lawyers don't get as rich and the parties know how each will come out in the end.

[MrWolf]

30 years together and at tail end of divorce. I basically gave her everything she asked for as I have enough to live. Wasn't worth the fight and hurting my kids by depriving their Mother. Kids are grown. One thing I will say is if you have funds, property, etc. in your name do not commingle funds, property, etc.. Saved me in that I did keep one set of funds strictly in my name with no contributions made during the marriage. Lost out on the other ones. Good luck.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

My wife and I lead a marriage strengthening class. We've been married forty years. Both of us have been married before.

If you need a pre-nup, that means that you shouldn't be getting married in the first place. Marriage is built on trust and if you can't trust someone, then you should NOT get married. You are already saying "I don't know if I am committed enough to make this work."

Marriage takes a 100% commitment. If you are not willing to do that, you are not ready for marriage.

While I have 0 years experience of being married, and 53 years of experience of NOT being married...I gotta say, I agree with Fast Ronnie...
and I will add, if this marriage isn't worth the risk of half of your assets, then it ain't worth doing.

[RED BEAR]

Well I didn't need one been married 42 years this year. Besides when I got married i didn't have anything no money the only thing I had was an old buddy that cost all of 46 dollars and was probably over priced at that.

[snowwolfe]

My wife and I lead a marriage strengthening class. We've been married forty years. Both of us have been married before.

If you need a pre-nup, that means that you shouldn't be getting married in the first place. Marriage is built on trust and if you can't trust someone, then you should NOT get married. You are already saying "I don't know if I am committed enough to make this work."

Marriage takes a 100% commitment. If you are not willing to do that, you are not ready for marriage.

This has ZERO to do with why people do a prenup. I seriously doubt anyone gets married thinking they will divorce. But divorce happens for various other reasons and not all are trust related.

[lightman]

I won't offer any advise on marriage or other life choices. But, the price and waiting time seem excessive to me. I retired about 3 years ago and on the advice of my financial adviser hired an attorney to draw up an estate plan. Wills, trust, medical and financial powers of attorney, probably some more stuff. The cost and waiting time was much less than your prices and the attorney was highly respected locally, not some jack leg working off of the street.

Good Luck with this!

[JoeJames]

You get what you pay for.

If you want a cheap contract, including a prenuptial agreement, there are certainly lawyers out there that are more than happy to take your money.

You know as well as I do that there are some skilled attorneys and there are some not so skilled attorneys.

While it is true that some divorce law just cannot be side-stepped with a contract and that is how it should be. You can't use a contract to circumvent the law.
However, when pre-marital property is clearly identified in a prenuptial agreement, I've never seen the ownership of that property disturbed by a court.I agree 100%; as you said "You get what you pay for". And, to muddy the water, I am sure there are many many "Free" pre-nup forms out there on the internet, to really really pecker things up!

[dverna]

Good news.

I found a well rated firm that charges $200/hr and they estimate the cost will be closer to $1000 than $2000. They have a prenuptial specialist. Timing is less than two months and totally dependent on how quickly we can pull together the list and values of our assets/liabilities.

This may offend some of you. Anyone with assets entering into marriage without a prenuptial agreement is a fool.

I am in my late sixties and my fiancé is 12 years younger than I am. Stuff happens.

For those of you happily married for decades, you are the exception. 50% of first marriages end in divorce. 65% of second marriages end the same way. And of the marriages that survive, I am willing to bet many are less than idyllic....but they stay together for the kids, family, appearances, and/or financial necessity. BTW, in second marriages the kids are one of the biggest problems. Her son has voiced his disapproval of me and the union so not a good start.

We are both taking pre marriage counseling at our church. But there are never guarantees. That is the importance of the prenuptial agreement. And if we cannot agree on the terms, that is the red flag that we should not proceed.

[Char-Gar]

I never saw much use for a prenup in Texas, being that we are a Community Property state. Community property is defined as any property obtained after marriage, other than that which is obtained by gift, devise or descent (inherited). Problems start to develop when community and separate property (pre-marriage) are co-mingled.

What you have is an accounting problem. As long as the Separate property is kept isolated and never co-mingled with community, you will not lose it in a divorce, under most circumstances.

Addendum: I have done lots of per-marital counseling, but it is basically useless. Five years into the marriage, emotions and relationships will have changed and anything learned in such pre-marital counseling, will be either forgotten or discarded. I have had much better success, counseling and dealing with specific problems as they occur.

Addendum No. 2: Second marriages fail, when people don't learn from the first. One of the biggest issues in first marriages, is one or both of the parties can't, accept the other for what they are. They want to change, shape and mold the other, into the person they want them to be. Women are particularly bad about this, as most has some kind of missionary complex. They think they can fix their new husband. They believe with their love and help, the hubby can be changed into the touchy, feeley, emotional vulnerable person they want. What they want is a person with female emotions and male genitalia.

In a second marriage, people should know by now, that if they can't live with the person as it, don't get married, for they are not likely to change. Second marriages can be reality based and not fantasy based like the first.

I had a 30 years first marriage go south, but in reality it went south six months in. It just took 30 years to shoot it in the head and move on. I am now 25 years into a second marriage and this one is a go, because we don't expect each other to change, to suit some fantasy notion of a spouse.

[JimB..]

Good news.

I found a well rated firm that charges $200/hr and they estimate the cost will be closer to $1000 than $2000. They have a prenuptial specialist. Timing is less than two months and totally dependent on how quickly we can pull together the list and values of our assets/liabilities.

This may offend some of you. Anyone with assets entering into marriage without a prenuptial agreement is a fool.

I am in my late sixties and my fiancé is 12 years younger than I am. Stuff happens.

For those of you happily married for decades, you are the exception. 50% of first marriages end in divorce. 65% of second marriages end the same way. And of the marriages that survive, I am willing to bet many are less than idyllic....but they stay together for the kids, family, appearances, and/or financial necessity. BTW, in second marriages the kids are one of the biggest problems. Her son has voiced his disapproval of me and the union so not a good start.

We are both taking pre marriage counseling at our church. But there are never guarantees. That is the importance of the prenuptial agreement. And if we cannot agree on the terms, that is the red flag that we should not proceed.

You’re happy, she’s happy, anonymous people on the internet think you are a fool, you think anonymous people on the internet are fools. You’ve obviously made the right choice for you and your bride, and that’s all that matters!

[KenH]

Good news.

I found a well rated firm that charges $200/hr and they estimate the cost will be closer to $1000 than $2000. They have a prenuptial specialist. Timing is less than two months and totally dependent on how quickly we can pull together the list and values of our assets/liabilities.

This may offend some of you. Anyone with assets entering into marriage without a prenuptial agreement is a fool.

I am in my late sixties and my fiancé is 12 years younger than I am. Stuff happens.

For those of you happily married for decades, you are the exception. 50% of first marriages end in divorce. 65% of second marriages end the same way. And of the marriages that survive, I am willing to bet many are less than idyllic....but they stay together for the kids, family, appearances, and/or financial necessity. BTW, in second marriages the kids are one of the biggest problems. Her son has voiced his disapproval of me and the union so not a good start.

We are both taking pre marriage counseling at our church. But there are never guarantees. That is the importance of the prenuptial agreement. And if we cannot agree on the terms, that is the red flag that we should not proceed.

Congrats with your situation now. You're doing your homework, both of ya'll are working on it. Sounds like a winner to me. Again, congrats to you and the bride to be.