Rough guess of value Winchester 1917

[BrianL]

A fella has offered me a 1917 Winchester. He wants a comparable trade or cash. It has parts from all three makers but seems to be in good 'shooter' condition with a nice stock and metal finish.
Now for the other questionable .The bore has shiny lands but dark grooves. I would want it for using cast exclusively. Is this a viable gun for that?

No alterations, all military

[rmcc]

I just got through rebarreling a Krag with a bore like you describe, it would not shoot cast at all! As far as value, in my opinion, it is a parts gun that will be a shooter. Around here that is $250- $350 depending on condition. Good luck!! I had a P14 and like a dumb ***, I sold it!! Been looking for a good 14 0r 17 since.

[Multigunner]

Rifles that have had many rounds of Cupro nickel jacketed bullets fire through them can end up with a thick deposit of that metal in the grooves. I once owned a Krag carbine I picked up for $50 bucks (that was many years ago) in good condition other than the bore.
When I first tried cleaning it the deposits in the grooves began to curl up into long coiled strips sharp and tough enough to strip the bristles off bronze brushes. Soon the bore was choked with strips of cupro nickel and shredded patch cloths. What little I could see of bore surface was deeply pitted like craters on the moon. I was offered what at the time was a pretty good trade worth 4-5 times what I had in the rifle so I traded it off under the understanding that it was only going to be a wall hanger.

A few years later they began selling repro Krag barrels. Still kicking myself.

If Cupro nickel isn't the problem then hardened carbon fouling might be what you are seeing, in which case just clean the heck out of the bore and lap the grooves if necessary.

The old Armorers manuals of that era suggest a barrel that showed strong rifling was only ruined beyond redemption if pitting left gaps in the lands.

[Battis]

I bought one last year in Kittery for $550. Winchester, good bore, good wood, all original. Great shooter.
I also got an Argentine Mauser with a bore that did not look good. As suggested by someone on this forum. I shot a bunch of jacketed bullets through it. I was amazed at how well it cleaned up. The more I shot, the better it got.

[lefty o]

id never care to guess on value of a milsurp with having it in my hands, but depending on location and actual condition anywhere from $400 on up to too much.

[arlon]

I have several 1917s (good bores) and they are all really good shooters. I have Mosin Nagants with sewer pipe bores that are good cast shooters after some work. For a shooter, I'd give it a try but I wouldn't pay collector price for it either. I'd go after the crud with a stainless brush, they will knock a lot of rust and crud out of a barrel. I've never had a cruddy bore that was worse after the application of a stainless brush but I have saved a few that made perfectly good cast shooters.

[Adam Helmer]

I like the P-17 in all the flavors; Remington, Winchester and Eddystone and have them all. My best cast boolit rifle is an Eddystone with strong rifling and a bit of darkness in the grooves. I suppose you just need to do some work at the bench on the range and see if the Winchester is a cast boolit gun.

I have a "1942" Mosin 91/30 with a dark bore and strong rifling that shoots 2 inch groups at 100 yards with the Lee 312 185RN cast boolit, sized .311" and its favorite powder charge.

Hope this helps.

Adam

[BrianL]

Thank for the input. I got to take it home for the weekend to test fire and found a few problems. I tested the cycling with dummy rounds and was somewhat surprised considering the overall condition that the cartridges would not feed. I couldn't pry them out. Dropped the trigger guard and found that the magazine box was missing. The bolt stop/ejector assembly has issues as well. Both are fixable and parts are available. Didn't get out to my range until this morning. Trying a couple different loads between rain squalls. I started with a light load of unique behind a military pulled 150 fmj, single loaded to check for case issues. It shot these well. Tried a few full loads and they also shot well and surprisingly accurate considering my hurried set-up. I scrounged around and found a few 150 grain Loverin design Lymans and some 115gr RCBS rngc bullets and quickly loaded up some using the same load as the light fmj's which was 12 gr Unique. I shot at 25 yds only to see if there was any inkling of hope. I have posted the targets. I know that with tuning and finding my shooting glasses, it could do better.224105224106224107

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Looks like you've found a "keeper", Brian. And, like you said, parts are available.

[BrianL]

Just wish that my eyes were better. Had to give up High Power because of that, back before they let optics into the sport.

We have some military matches locally that I was thinking I 'needed' something like this for,this or a Nagant or Enfield.
I gave my son my DCM Garand a while back and have several scoped Savages that are boring to shoot with cast, predictable like a laser. This one might be a challenge . Just have to wait to see if he accepts my trade after adjustments for the parts needed for this one.

[reivertom]

That gun around here would go for 6 to 7 hundred easy if it is what it looks like in the photos. There are parts for those things everywhere. I have 1 original and 1 sporter. Winchesters are the most sought after in my circles. Most of them have some mixed parts on them.

[BrianL]

That gun around here would go for 6 to 7 hundred easy if it is what it looks like in the photos. There are parts for those things everywhere. I have 1 original and 1 sporter. Winchesters are the most sought after in my circles. Most of them have some mixed parts on them.
This one is an early Winchester action and barrel, Eddystone bolt and stock, Remington front sight. Has both the bomb and the star stampings but no (official) stock markings at all. Just 'HANY' or some such scratched in the side. It looks like it has been refinished but the whole rifle looks well cared for considering.224141224142224143

[fjruple]

Brian-- On the front end of the barrel behind the front sight base is listed the manufacturer, if one of the original manufacturers there will be a month and year. WWII replacement barrels will be RIA, HS or JA (Rock Island Arsenal, High Standard or Johnson Automatics) with no date just the US Ordnance marking. Very large quantities of M1917s were rebuilt during WWII (sometimes several times, I have a M1917 that was rebuilt no less than 3 times) so you will have a mixture of parts from all three manufacturers. On the right side of the stock it looks like a former owner "DAN" scratched his name into the stock. Normally if the Winchester was all original you can add a 20% premium above the other two manufacturers.

[BrianL]

This one is 'W 2-17 with the bomb ordinance stamp out front , serial 48321 so I am thinking it may be the original barrel. The '?ANY' (may be an 'H')mark is the only thing that I can find on the stock other than the 'E' on the front and on the bands. The floor-plate and trigger guard are also Eddystone. The safety has no marking.

[arlon]

My eyes like the aperture sights on the 1917s more than most other milsurps. They just work for me for some reason. Aperture and long sight radius are a help for the old eyes.

[BrianL]

I noticed that as well. The battle sight was right on for the miltary ammo and the flipped sight set at 200 got me close with the light cast loads. The close peep and the thin front blade may just be the ticket.
Just took a look on GB
Why has the price of these gone through the roof?

[472x1B/A]

In my part of the country the ones that look like dozers have ran over them go for 650-900 and 'good' ones run 750-1200. The one in your pics would be close to 800-950. The movie 'Saving Private Ryan' did it. ^^^

[Jack Stanley]

Brian , is the barrel cleaning up any better from the condition you got ? If it's pitting it's a toss up of how well it will shoot cast . If it's cupro-nickel then one of the electric bore cleaners can help . I had an 03 that the bore was silver from the stuff , it took several cycles but it all came out .

Jack

[Hardcast416taylor]

An FYI. This months NRA magazine The Rifleman has a pretty decent article about the 1917 `over there`.Robert

[Texas by God]

Like the M1 Garand, the M17 just feels "right" when you aim it.

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[fjruple]

This one is 'W 2-17 with the bomb ordinance stamp out front , serial 48321 so I am thinking it may be the original barrel. The '?ANY' (may be an 'H')mark is the only thing that I can find on the stock other than the 'E' on the front and on the bands. The floor-plate and trigger guard are also Eddystone. The safety has no marking.

Brian-- Thanks for info. The "W" "2-17" marked barrel with the ordnance bomb stamped out is interesting to say the least. There was a "compatibility" issue with the most early Winchesters due to jumping the gun on production before the US Ordnance drawings can be finalized. The barrel would not match the receiver based on the date given. It probably should be a 2-18. Compatibility between the three manufacturers were not achieved until January 1918. The stock is an Eddystock made stock. The safety is probably either a Remington or Winchester which are marked on the inside. The safety was probably not removed from receiver during the rebuild process as they are a pain in a rear to get back in. I found the M1917 rifles to shoot great with flat based bullets. I have been using NOE 314198 cast gas check .310 sized bullet with 13.0 grains of Longshot to great effect at 100 yards. Thanks again for the info and good luck with your rifle.

[BrianL]

Are you thinking that it was re-barreled with an older barrel? I am not finding many markings on parts here . Nothing on the swivels and only on one band. The trigger guard and floorplate are E marked but look new, no knicks, scratches, etc. Deep dark bluing. It is almost like a brand new stock assembly was installed with all hardware.

Jack,
The barrel looked a lot better after abour twenty passes with a brush. The grooves looked better at the breech end and somwhat darker towards the muzzle. I ran out of good bore solvent and only had some from a kit. I think that maybe a good soaked patch and brushing with a stronger solvent may help. I do see some land inperfection toward the muzzle as well.

[BrianL]

An update, after reading the post about the date stamped on the barrel , I looked at it again in several lightings and believe that I see a very washed out/light stamped (1) in front of the 2 and this would better match the November serial number range. I will attach pictures aa I go. I looked it over again....and again...good looking rifle....and see that the only parts that are parkerized is the stock hardware, other than the trigger guard and floorplate which are perfect blue

[fjruple]

Brian--
From the serial number that you provide the receiver was serialized in the Winchester inventory on October 26, 1917. That is NOT as an assembled as a rifle. The serialized receiver would go into a parts bin for final assembly into a rifle within week or two after that date. So having a 11-17 dated barrel seems to be original to the rifle. Most M1917 parts will be marked with a manufacturer's letter with the exception of a few parts. In some cases, complete removal of the part is required to view the letter. I have also found several of the published listing of what "original" parts are marked and those parts that are not to be in error. The most notable exception is the butt plate cap or "trap door" on the butt plate. In published writings the Remington made butt plate cap is not marked. I have found in every incidence that the letter "R" is stamped on butt plate cap under the leaf spring that applies pressure to the butt plate cap to keep it closed. In order to see that "R" on the butt plate cap, the butt plate much be complete disassembled. A lot of this "lettering" is a carry over from the Pattern 1914 production where there was little or no commonality of parts. In some cases if the letter is missing it is either a post WWI replacement part, has been refinished or by simple wear on the part. The most famous part for the wearing off of the letter is on the butt plate made by Eddystone where the "E' was placed in a location that took a lot of abuse from use.

Your rifle also falls into that period of Winchester not being compatible with other manufacturers. General Pershing prohibited Winchesters from being sent to the AEF do to compatibility issues. If your Winchester passed the the compatibility "inspection" There should be a "star" stamped on the receiver next to the US Ordnance marking. The cut off date was January 1, 1918 for compatibility. The compatibility issue was the result of Winchester not waiting for the final design drawings from US Ordnance. Both Remington and Eddystone waited for the final design drawings.

Cheers

[BrianL]

The receiver has the star marking and tbe barrel is apparently 12-17

[Texas by God]

I can't fathom how many the contractors made in just two years- amazing.

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[fjruple]

I can't fathom how many the contractors made in just two years- amazing.

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Tex-- Its even shorter than 2 years. Winchester started serializing receivers in 21 May 1917. Remington in November 1917 and Eddystone in August 1917. The production in Eddystone was absolutely unbelievable. At some companies, the production did go into early 1919. Even though there was general production was set up from the Pattern 1914. The commonality of parts between the three manufacturers and the redesign of the Pattern 1914 to .30-06 slow down the process a bit. Lay on top of that the labor issues of finding people to work in the plants. winchester solved that problem to a degree by bring back retired employees who wanted to do their bit for the war effort and hiring women to take the place of men who were either drafted or left to look for higher paying jobs.

[alamogunr]

Interesting thread. I have a 1917 Eddystone that I purchased about 3 years ago. I usually buy from Empire, although the prices may be a little higher, I can trust the description. I don't consider myself a pure collector. I buy a gun to be both a shooter and to add to the "collection". I just read the article in the last American Rifleman. That plus this thread has mostly formed my total knowledge of the 1917. Except for what I learned from the Gary Cooper movie about Sgt York.

I'm going to go over the rifle and see how much it conforms to the things brought out by posters here.

[BrianL]

Closing tbe deal. The seller agreed to pay for the parts that would bring the rifle to full function and accepted my trade.
By the way, got the parts from Numrich and they worked.......best that I can say. Sandblasted and refinished with no makers marks left. Not an issue to me but be aware.

[Jack Stanley]

If you have to buy another bottle of bore solvent , I've had good results using Sweet's 7.62 . It has a lot of ammonia in it so it cut's into normal fouling very well . I'm not certain how it would do on what you have .

It's good to hear it's cleaning up for you .

Jack

[BrianL]

I had a bottle of Sweets and I used mostly Butch's Bore Shine but can not find my bottle. Just have the Hoppes that comes i the kits. Maybe a good soaking? Hope to get out this weekend...if it ever stops raining here in NH