Decent but not heavy load for 45-70 cast

[wendyj]

I am casting out some 396 grain 45-70 with gas checks and am thinking of using H4198 as a go to load. I had went mid range to max on it and kind of a bruiser out of the Marlin Guide gun for a woman my size. I am going to be deer hunting and occasional black bear with it and wondered if anyone else uses the H4198 as a hunting go to powder. With jacketed bullets my husband reloads the Marlin 450 at almost max with imr 30301 and is way too much for me and downloading imr 3031 doesn't seem to back off the quick snap of the rifle. I've tried 31.5 grains of the 4198 and it's not too bad. Not sure about killing power and haven't had a chance to chorograph yet.

[retread]

Might want to look in Castpics. Below if some data they list for 45-70 levers. The loads are max for the weights listed but with your lighter bullet these would be toned down a bit. 425 gr versus your 396)



45-70 Govt (Lever) 311 RCBS 45-300-FN 311gr imr 4895 54.0 1790 0.000 CastData R1
45-70 Govt (Lever) 311 RCBS 45-300-FN 311gr imr 4198 45.0 1894 0.000 CastData R1
45-70 Govt (Lever) 311 RCBS 45-300-FN 311gr sr 4759 32.0 1681 0.000 CastData R1
45-70 Govt (Lever) 311 RCBS 45-300-FN 311gr 2400 29.0 1655 0.000 CastData R1
45-70 Govt (Lever) 425 RCBS 45-405-FN 425gr sr 4759 28.0 1409 0.000 CastData R1
45-70 Govt (Lever) 425 RCBS 45-405-FN 425gr imr 4198 41.0 1703 0.000 CastData R1
45-70 Govt (Lever) 425 RCBS 45-405-FN 425gr imr 3031 47.0 1543 0.000 CastData R1
45-70 Govt (Lever) 425 RCBS 45-405-FN 425gr reloder 7 48.0 1694 0.000 CastData R1
45-70 Govt (Lever) 507 RCBS 45-500-FN 507gr imr 4227 27.0 1342 0.000 CastData R1
45-70 Govt (Lever) 507 RCBS 45-500-FN 507gr imr 4198 32.0 1337 0.000 CastData R1

[Char-Gar]

Many folks think if a cartridge can be pushed faster, that is reason enough to do it. I don't hold that opinion. The 45-70 helped wipe out the Western Buffalo (Bison) herds. It also did a good job on the Native American's as well. The loads pushed a bullet out the muzzle at 1,100 to 1,200 feet per second.

Today we don't have anything any tougher to kill, so a load driving the bullet 1,400 - 1,500 fps is gobs a plenty stomp for everything in North America.

[Tatume]

I've tried 31.5 grains of the 4198 and it's not too bad. Not sure about killing power ...

Your 400 grain bullet should make about 1400 fps, which puts the power at about the same level as a 454 Casull revolver. Since the revolver has been used to take everything up to and including elephants, I don't think you should worry about killing power.

[richhodg66]

Last Fall my deer load was one of my Dad's cast bullets which weighed about 330 grains and 30 grains of 5744. Shot clear through a good sized doe almost lengthwise from maybe 60 yards which is about what my normal range is or less. That load is well within Trap Door levels, but shot well through my little H&R. The .45-70, more than any other cartridge its eems, attracts the types who want to hot rod a cartridge. No need in my opinion.

[Grmps]

try trail boss 12.5

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have a BPCR that I load with 695 Gr Creedmore lead boolit that utilizes a Buffalo Arms boolit mold. This honking chunk of lead alloy has a diameter of .513 and my loading of 104 Gr of Swiss 1 1/2 powder with a lubed wad moves out at 1250 FPS from my Winchester Model 1885 HiWall 50-90 Sharps rifle. The recoil is stout to say the least but the results downrange are insane. I have a AR500 steel plate target (18"x12") mounted on a 2"x2" pole and it has a rebar stand that is quite heavy and has a footprint of 2'deep and 18" wide. At a range of 350 yds this loading not only hits the target with a loud clang but it usually knocks the whole shebang backwards and to the ground. I have yet to calculate the foot pounds of energy that this loading produces but I am looking for a boolit mold that will produce a lighter boolit. I do not fire more than 20 of these rounds a day as I would rather distribute pain than be the receiver of such. However as I have over 100 these rounds loaded once I get a right mold I will probably break them down, remelt the lead boolits, save the powder and primed cases for use with a lighter boolit and powder charge...

[Jeff Michel]

I've used 40 grains of IMR4198 with a 330 grain HP for years. Mild and accurate. Good deer load.

[Hamish]

Considering that the .45 Govt. load was designed to shoot LENGTHWISE through a horse,,,,,,,,.:holysheep

[500Linebaughbuck]

h4198, 2400, varget or rel7 doing 1200-1400fps and a 380 - 450gr cast boolit is all you need.

i can't remember the load(s) but i like a 405gr fn in my handi rifle going about 1300fps.

[centershot]

h4198, 2400, varget or rel7 doing 1200-1400fps and a 380 - 450gr cast boolit is all you need.

i can't remember the load(s) but i like a 405gr fn in my handi rifle going about 1300fps.

^^^^ This, exactly! As stated above, the original loads were designed to shoot a horse out from under whoever needed to be stopped. Buffalo? Seen any buffalo lately? That 400 grain bullet rolling along at a leisurely 1200 fps will shoot through any critter you're going to encounter in Georgia. You don't need to turn your rifle into an elephant rifle, 1200 fps will knock down any deer or black bear, without beating up your shoulder! And, at 1200 fps, you probably won't need the gas check.

[wendyj]

I've got to load and chronograph some this weekend. I've got plenty of 4198-3031-2400-unique -4895--Varget. I'm thinking same thing at around 1200 to 1400 fps max will do sufficient for anything here. I took a Fallow deer several,,many years ago with a Guide gun and some cor bons. Deer died and so did my shoulder. May try a big bear hunt in Canada next year with it but even the extra 200 lbs verses here should go down quick enough. My longest range in mountain area here will be around 125 yards. Canada won't be 50-75 at best according to guide I spoke with. Mold should cast at 400 but not with alloy I'm using. Average is 396 to 397. Al told me at Noe that's what I could expect and I'm ok with that weight.

[Tatume]

The Guide Gun is an amazingly capable rifle. Is yours any early one with ports?

[webfoot10]

15 grs. Unique. a 1/4 square of toilet paper on the powder, topped off with a Lee 420 gr. bullet as cast,(If it will chamber)
will go through a deer lenght wise. Will shoot to same point of aim as 30 grs. imr 3031. No recoil and very accurate.
Shot 15 shots at deer, 15 dead deer. What's not to like.

[knifemaker]

Wendyi, go to the Hodgdon reloading site and check the loads for the Trapdoor 45-70. They will list several of your powders for that caliber. The reloading data is free to view and use. Here is the link: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

[Rufus Krile]

A 405gr Lee bulet at 1400fps will pass through a buffalo, side to side through the shoulders, and you'll never recover the bullet. The 1400fps should be the TOP of your loads. Someone else mentioned TrailBoss @ 12.5gr... Try up to 16.0 and that'll give you about 1200fps. One of the better powders for 45/70 is Accurate Arms 5744... 27gr would give you just about that 1400fps mark.

[wendyj]

The Guide Gun is an amazingly capable rifle. Is yours any early one with ports?

It was ported. I sold it years ago. Just a 22 inch Remlin now. That's one gun I wish I had never let go. Lesson learned. Been bidding on one on gunbroker got another week left.

[Rick Hodges]

My deer load is a 300gr. Hornady or 300 gr. Ranch dog at 1800 fps out of a Marlin Guide Gun. The recoil is not excessive....at that velocity I have a 150yd. point blank range. The lighter faster bullet flattens trajectory. It has been an impressive deer stopper.

[JimB..]

My deer load is a 300gr. Hornady or 300 gr. Ranch dog at 1800 fps out of a Marlin Guide Gun. The recoil is not excessive....at that velocity I have a 150yd. point blank range. The lighter faster bullet flattens trajectory. It has been an impressive deer stopper.

I’m with Rick, drop the mass of the projectile to 300gr at least for the deer, or better yet get something in 30cal for the deer. There are very good and inexpensive lever guns in 30-30 that are more than adequate for deer, even big Michigan deer.

[TCLouis]

Wendyj
Give us some hints
How far will be your longest shots?
What is your load now?

I always find it interesting the answers one gets when there is no starting point.

[wendyj]

Wendyj
Give us some hints
How far will be your longest shots?
What is your load now?

I always find it interesting the answers one gets when there is no starting point.

Right now I've been using 43.5 grains of 4198. Longest shot in mountain area around 125-150 yards in our Northern zone. Southern zone maybe 75-400 yards but I use 7-08 and 7 mag for that hunting. A 300 grain mold would have been ideal but I wanted one from Noe and all Al had at time was the 395. I know',,, I could have waited but casting is my favorite hobby now next to reloading and shooting.
Eyes are not good enough for open sights so using a 1-8 vortex with bdc reticle. Using Starline Brass with a CCI BR2 match primer. Recoil at max loads are not so bad hunting with adrenalin high while hunting but I like to shoot several rounds a month. If I'm going to shoot at the bench I'd like my practice loads same as my hunting loads. I see you are middle Tn and I'm originally from East Tn on Va border so our hunting here not much different altitudes and mostly mountains and valleys until you get about an hour south. Not valleys; Hollers.

[EMC45]

I shot and killed 3 deer with the Lee 405gr. cast from straight COWWs over 15gr. Unique. Mild load and accurate. Never recovered a bullet. NEF Handi Rifle.

[Tatume]

Any load that emulates the 45 Colt will kill deer like the hammer of Thor. The only restriction is range.

[sghart3578]

I must be a wimp. I like the Lee 405, sized to .459" and lubed with TAC-X, loaded over 11 gr of Unique. 1000-1100 fps out of my 1895CB. Rocks the steel plates at 100 yards. Very accurate also.

It is all I need and easy on the shoulder.


Steve in N CA

[wendyj]

Any load that emulates the 45 Colt will kill deer like the hammer of Thor. The only restriction is range.

The 45 colt and 44 mag are my other short range rifles.

[redhawk0]

Just as a guestimate when working up a load. I have a Henry 45-70 with the 18.5" barrel. Whatever you're load data is listed at you will likely not get. They are tested from a 24" barrel. With the 45-70 you will loose approx 25fps per inch below the 24" test barrel. So...if you load for 1500fps load data...you'll be in the 1350fps range real world out of that shorter barrel. I use H4198 out of my Henry with 330gr and 405gr bullets. I keep mine in the 1200-1400fps range as well. Its a stiff recoil but nothing you can't handle for 50-100 rounds at a time.

redhawk

[wendyj]

Just as a guestimate when working up a load. I have a Henry 45-70 with the 18.5" barrel. Whatever you're load data is listed at you will likely not get. They are tested from a 24" barrel. With the 45-70 you will loose approx 25fps per inch below the 24" test barrel. So...if you load for 1500fps load data...you'll be in the 1350fps range real world out of that shorter barrel. I use H4198 out of my Henry with 330gr and 405gr bullets. I keep mine in the 1200-1400fps range as well. Its a stiff recoil but nothing you can't handle for 50-100 rounds at a time.

redhawk

I'm using a 22 inch barrel. I'll be happy with 1300 fps. I loaded up about 20 with 30 grains of 4198. Loaded a few stouter with 41 grains. May try some 3031 in some. Going to ladder up in 2 grain increments on the 4198 and go from 30 to 40 grains. Most of my levers are Henry's and I wish I had bought the Henry in this. Still got bids on gun broker for a Ruger#1. Was what I wanted when I got this one.

[Rick Hodges]

My experience with 3031 has not been good. It is extremely dirty with lots of unburned powder until It is loaded up stiff. I never got acceptable accuracy with it in my rifle with 300 or 385 gr. projectiles except as I neared maximum loads.
I use H-322 burns clean and accurate. They are stiffer loads than what you are looking for.

[Tatume]

At the time it was introduced, IMR 3031 was considered a very slow powder. Elmer Keith raved about the "new" 3031 when it came out. While we have powders now that are much slower, it is still a fairly slow burner. That means it will perform best when stiff loads are used.

[redhawk0]

I'm using a 22 inch barrel. I'll be happy with 1300 fps. I loaded up about 20 with 30 grains of 4198. Loaded a few stouter with 41 grains. May try some 3031 in some. Going to ladder up in 2 grain increments on the 4198 and go from 30 to 40 grains. Most of my levers are Henry's and I wish I had bought the Henry in this. Still got bids on gun broker for a Ruger#1. Was what I wanted when I got this one.

Like others have mentioned...3031 is dirty until you load up a bit stiffer. I've run 340gr with 46.5gr of 3031 and they were ok...just not as clean as my H-4198. Out of a 22" barrel you should be in the 1350 fps range with 30gr of H-4198. I think I may get a can of 2400 next....I see that 20gr of 2400 for a 340gr gives 1300fps...so that's ~1150fps from my Henry. Its supposed to be a very accurate load.

I really like my Henry. I like that it has no crossbolt safety and I do like the tube magazine. The Henry has a transfer bar safety for the hammer. I figure, if I can't get a deer in the 5 shots available to me (then I shouldn't be shooting)...and I shouldn't be trying to quickly reload for more shots. I do however like being able to pull the tube out and dump my shells instead of cranking each through the action to unload. Many don't agree...but that's ok...I bought what I wanted....others can buy what they want.

redhawk

[Rick Hodges]

Like others have mentioned...3031 is dirty until you load up a bit stiffer. I've run 340gr with 46.5gr of 3031 and they were ok...just not as clean as my H-4198. Out of a 22" barrel you should be in the 1350 fps range with 30gr of H-4198. I think I may get a can of 2400 next....I see that 20gr of 2400 for a 340gr gives 1300fps...so that's ~1150fps from my Henry. Its supposed to be a very accurate load.

I really like my Henry. I like that it has no crossbolt safety and I do like the tube magazine. The Henry has a transfer bar safety for the hammer. I figure, if I can't get a deer in the 5 shots available to me (then I shouldn't be shooting)...and I shouldn't be trying to quickly reload for more shots. I do however like being able to pull the tube out and dump my shells instead of cranking each through the action to unload. Many don't agree...but that's ok...I bought what I wanted....others can buy what they want.

redhawk

Henry's are fine, but you don't have to crank rounds through the action to unload a Marlin either. Just the round in the chamber, the rest slide out the loading gate just as easy as can be once you learn how.

[wendyj]

So for trial and error I loaded up some with 42 grains of h4198 and just wore my sissy pad and it's been manageable for 20 rounds so far. 1.89 3 shot groups at 100 and I can live with that. I wont need the pad for hunting but was perfect for bench work.

[redhawk0]

Henry's are fine, but you don't have to crank rounds through the action to unload a Marlin either. Just the round in the chamber, the rest slide out the loading gate just as easy as can be once you learn how.

Great to know...I stand corrected...I've never owned a Marlin...I guess I assumed it was like my Winchesters where I have to crank them through.


So for trial and error I loaded up some with 42 grains of h4198 and just wore my sissy pad and it's been manageable for 20 rounds so far. 1.89 3 shot groups at 100 and I can live with that. I wont need the pad for hunting but was perfect for bench work.

Oh yeah...42 grains is a little stiff...but not too bad. Sounds like its in the 1700fps range. I load a little lower than that...I keep mine in the 31gr with my 405s which puts me in the range for 1400fps. (1250fps at 19.5" barrel) The recoil is still quite manageable at the range for 50-100 rounds.
For deer...I like as much meat as I can get so I keep my velocities down a little. The Henry is my walking gun so I keep it open sights for super fast target acquisition...so...I likely won't get a shot more than 100 yards. The 1200-1400fps range works fine for my needs.

redhawk

[Iowa Fox]

My favorite in my Marlin 1895 CB or 24" Encore is the old Lyman 456192 sized to 460 with 13 grains of Unique.

[Ramjet-SS]

Like many here I do not subscribe to magnum level,loads in the 45-70. I like the 325-350 grain WFN cast GC in the 1200 FPS range kills game quickly easy on me and my shoulders. I am fan of Unique and a puff of pillow ticking for clean shooting accurate loads in the 45-70.

[T-Bird]

I use 29-30 gr IMR 4198 in my 1895 CB with Dacron and get 1350ish with the 330 hp

[starnbar]

I load my 45/70 down in Fl the deer are mostly small I have shot some big ones but most are around 140 # but I got some hogs over 300# and that takes a good sized boolit or a 12 ga slug. My shoulder is shot and I need the whole thing rebuilt I have put it off for years because it sucks being laid up and cant do anything but being over 65 if I dont do it soon I guess it wont get done.

[Rick R]

My wife killed her first deer (a small buck) with her Guide Gun loaded with a 400gr commercial cast boolit over 14gr of Unique. The range was only about 20 FEET in thick brush. Toppled him right over.

Don’t forget it’s perfectly acceptable to have a “Hunting” load and a “Plinking” load that’s easier on your shoulder. The .45/70 is a grand old cartridge that graciously shoots everything from gallery loads to fire breathers.

[wendyj]

I fooled around with some Unique since I had cast more than I can shoot this year. I found around 15.5 grains was my best accuracy and recoil very manageable.

[Rick R]

I fooled around with some Unique since I had cast more than I can shoot this year. I found around 15.5 grains was my best accuracy and recoil very manageable.
I always seem to do the reverse and shoot more than I can cast. ;)
Your 15.5gr load should put any deer ever born in the freezer if you do your part.

[Dusty Ed]

RICH
That is the most sensible load I have seen on these post.
I don't know if these fellers are trying to kill them selves or a DEER

[craneman]

I shoot a lot of BPCR and love to plink with my 1886 too. Pushing a 45-70 fast to flatten the trajectory is folly. Unless hunting large dangerous game a faster 45-70 will only make a larger hole in the ground on the off side of whatever you just shot.
A mild recoiling easy shooting 45-70 will kill anything that walks the North American continent.
IMHO
That being said I don't have access to my loading data at the moment but really like reloader 7 for 45-70 hunting loads, from 330gr to 405gr bullets.
Todd

[edp2k]

400 gr @ 1300 fps will go lengthwise thru a whitetail and keep on going.
easy on the shoulder, less than a 12 ga slug.
any faster and it just increases the speed it has when it exits the back side of the deer.

[irishtoo]

i think ive settled on my pa deer/bear load. noe 315-.460 15gr unique. im guessing 1200fps. it groups best in a ruger#3 and a handi rifle. but i have not killed anything with it yet. good luck on your hunt. irishtoo

[Texas by God]

I would suggest the Lee 340fp over Unique at around 1400 fps. Fun to shoot, will kill whatever quite dead. Maybe try it next year since you've figured out your 4198 load already. I'm learning 38-55 and in my 6.5 lb Win 94 the recoil difference between between a max load of Unique and a mild load of 3031 is wierd- the 3031 load is only about 150 fps faster but kicks a LOT more. Good hunting to you, WendyJ. And your husband lol.
Thomas

[wendyj]

Thanks all. Seems 15.5 is my accuracy load also using Unique. Jump to 16.5 and looks like shotgun pattern instead.

[NorthMoccasin]

I have had great results using 15.0 Unique and the RCBS 310 gr GC or Lyman 457191 at 295 gr. very accurate and easy on the shoulder. Will drop any deer or black bear. Good luck with your hunt.

[wendyj]

I have had great results using 15.0 Unique and the RCBS 310 gr GC or Lyman 457191 at 295 gr. very accurate and easy on the shoulder. Will drop any deer or black bear. Good luck with your hunt.
Plan on trying it out this Saturday. Hey North Moccasin , I couldn't help but notice your user name. My husband is from Hilton area. I noticed the Moccasin in you name which would be Moccasin Gap to him in SW VA. You anywhere near there. I think he graduated from Gate City High back in late 70s.