The Ideal 357 Magnum Self Defense Round?

[am44mag]

I know I'm going to get a ton of different answers here, but what do you think it the ideal 357 mag self defense round? A lot of people seem to prefer 125gr HPs, some prefer 158 HPs, others say there penetrate too much. Some are fine with 158gr SWCs, but again, people think over penetration will be an issue.

I'm kind of leaning towards a 125gr Gold Dot HP at about 1400-1500 FPS.

[jmort]

170 grain WFN at 950 fps

[dbmjr1]

I don't think it makes much difference, so long as it's a full house load.

I think a load of belly button lint doing close to 2K fps would put two holes in most two legged varmints.

[Char-Gar]

Self defense where? What you would use in a rural residence would be different from what you would use in church or a crowded mall. Over penetration, with a non-expanding bullet, is pretty much guaranteed with a full snort 357 Mag load.

If you insist on one do-all everywhere load then a good 125 HJP would be my pick. But one shot with that load in my bedroom at right would leave everybody deaf and blind. I would step it down to a +P 38 Special JHP.

[jmort]

Agree
Just depends
My load is mild, 340 foot pounds, but may shoot through a Goblin

[Beagle333]

Heavy boolit, 170gr to 200gr, round or flat nose, 800-900 fps.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

self defense against what?

I prefer heavy...like the Ranch Dog RF 190gr cast with a hard alloy and Hot load for MAX penetration...you never know when you might need to disable a Chevy V8, LOL.

[Char-Gar]

Heavy boolit, 170gr to 200gr, round or flat nose, 800-900 fps.

That is still going to sail on through the bad guy and takeout whoever it behind him or her. Some years ago, there was a big prison riot when a guard shot an inmate with the old 38 Special 158 grain rounds nose and took out another inmate across the yard.

Over penetration is no joke. Nobody wants to survive a bad guy and then go broke in court when the innocent bystander takes you to the cleaners, which they will do.

[Beagle333]

You are definitely going to have do all you can to pick your shot. You don't know what the bad guy will be wearing or how heavy he is or how much of him is muscle or how far away he will be or how many bones you'll hit, nor if they are at skin level or deep within the meat. So there's no magic boolit that will penetrate effectively and never come out the other side. You just have to get one that will punch through his clothes and into him and do your best to make sure the backstop is clear. Try not to take shots in a movie theater or while in line at the grocery store if you can help it, but I'd rather have a lengthy court battle than be dead. While I haven't had to shoot anybody, I do expect it will be in a more private setting when they come for me personally.

[rintinglen]

I used heavy , 180+ grain boolits for hunting or bear protection, but in town, that's too much of a good thing when it comes to penetration. When the LASO adopted the Beretta 92's, one of the first officer-involved shootings resulted in a bullet traversing a robbery suspect and killing a pregnant women and her fetus. The county of Los Angeles settled for what was then a very large sum. (Got to love those deep pocket laws.) These days I would tend towards a 135 grain Gold Dot Speer 357 load, but a 158 grain LHPSWC Remington 38 +p would more likely make the cut.

[Char-Gar]

You are definitely going to have do all you can to pick your shot. You don't know what the bad guy will be wearing or how heavy he is or how much of him is muscle or how far away he will be or how many bones you'll hit, nor if they are at skin level or deep within the meat. So there's no magic boolit that will penetrate effectively and never come out the other side. You just have to get one that will punch through his clothes and into him and do your best to make sure the backstop is clear. Try not to take shots in a movie theater or while in line at the grocery store if you can help it, but I'd rather have a lengthy court battle than be dead. While I haven't had to shoot anybody, I do expect it will be in a more private setting when they come for me personally.

I admire your confidence that you can pick where you will need to shoot in self defense. Me, I am not so confident. The brown noxious stuff hits the ventilator quite often unexpected, inconvenient. Maybe I am just unlucky.

As for being dragged into court goes goes, that sound like the fellow who smokes three packs a day and tells folks, that everybody is going to die of something. I have spent many a long day in the court room representing either the Dragor or Dragee to know the toll it takes on the people involved.

Bottom line is do as you wish, for that is part of our essential liberty in this great land.

[Gray Fox]

How about a plated DEWC at about 1,000-1,100 fps? Also, what barrel length are you going to shoot the boolit out of? A 2" J frame, a 4" K frame, or an 8 3/8 Model 27? You'd be hard pressed to get a 125 JHP moving that fast in anything shorter than 6", especially if it is a chronographed load, not what is expected from a load book. Also, what is your most probable threat, a 250 lb. thug dressed for winter in upstate NY, or a skinny drugee dressed for summer in Atlanta? Not trying to be snide since all of us CCW folks face many of the same questions. GF

[Beagle333]

I didn't say that I had confidence..... I said that you have to do all that you can, not to kill the pregnant mom standing behind the bad guy, if you can see one there.



As for being dragged into court goes goes, that sound like the fellow who smokes three packs a day and tells folks, that everybody is going to die of something. I have spent many a long day in the court room representing either the Dragor or Dragee to know the toll it takes on the people involved. Obviously it is much better to be dead than to have made an errant shot while trying to defend yourself. Just don't pull that trigger. There's too much to risk.


Apparently the only answer is a +P 38 Special JHP. Therefore I will change my answer to that and go clean some of this tar and feathers off of me.

[357Mag]

AM44 -

Howdy!

I’ve read up on it. I personally wrote to Jeff Cooper, Chuck Taylor, Ed Sanow....even argued nicely on the topic of .357Mag revolver vs .45 ACP M1911 ...... in handgun defense class w/ Clint Smith.

The FBI’s handgun cartridge “ effectiveness” chart for years had the Remington 125g JHP load rates as #1.
The similar Federal 125gr JHP load also was rated up there.

A cursory review of the proven effective calibers/ cartridges shows they achieve around 425ft lbs, or more.
The 125gr JHP loads listed run upwards of 525ft lb, if memory serves.
* Thing is.....John and Jane Doe have face a good deal of challenge in controlling “ fult-tilt “ .357Mag loads.... of any grain wt; in anything like a readily concealable gun. *

What I did ( works for me and my build/ stature ) is go w/ a custom 4” heavy- barrelled “N” frame w/ fixed sights. I have variously carried the Rem 125gr HP and sometimes the FED125gr HP.
This has been my “go to” carry set-up for 43yr.

RX -
Custom Herrett’s stocks, and practice, practice, practice !!

I myself don’t see any bennies in using a lead 158SWC in a .357Mag for self defense.
But hey... that’s just me. And, all I cast are 158 - 172gr lead SWCs ( Lyman ). JMHO.


With regards,
357Mag

[RED BEAR]

whatever you carry i would think any 357 load would work pretty well. i plan on getting a 357 fo carry in the future but i am on a tight budget and prefer a three inch barrel there is just too much vel loss in a 2 inch barrel.

[bob208]

358429 6gr. unique in .38 spl. cases. I loaded a lot of that load for police officers. also dropped a deer with it. it will work just fine as a defense round.

[GhostHawk]

I don't see overpenitration as a problem. Inside the house its 12 ga all the time.

Outside, well I really don't care a whole lot if that slug makes 2 holes vs one.

All depends on the situation, what you consider acceptable and what is not.

For me, everything centerfire goes through too many layers of sheet rock, plaster, lath. Possible exception is the .32sw long.

12 ga and 5 rounds of 7.5's. I don't need to hit him at 50 yards, I'm inside the living room and not wanting loads to go through walls into the bedroom.

Just like I don't really need those 7.5's to penetrate much. He's going to take a heck of a wallup. Heck he could be wearing a vest. Either way you have time for a nice aimed down at the floor head shot. Right? That ain't going to go into the bedroom.

I could be wrong, but I don't think so. In 65 years I have yet to see much that can stand up to a 12 ga.

[charlie b]

I know I'm going to get a ton of different answers here, but what do you think it the ideal 357 mag self defense round? A lot of people seem to prefer 125gr HPs, some prefer 158 HPs, others say there penetrate too much. Some are fine with 158gr SWCs, but again, people think over penetration will be an issue.

I'm kind of leaning towards a 125gr Gold Dot HP at about 1400-1500 FPS.Yep, you got a wide range of answers. In the old days many of the state cops out here in the west swore by the 125gn JHP. So much so that Sig developed the .357Sig to match that round in order to get contracts for semi-autos with the states.

But, that was quite a few years ago and the ammo mfgs have made huge strides in developing rounds for LEO and self defense. Look at Hornady's development of the Critical Duty line of ammo, made specifically to mee the FBI ammo performance requirements. And the Critical Defense line for the 'civilian' customer (less penetration after penetrating things like car windows). Other mfgs have the same kind of ammo so look around.

My old standard was 140gn Silvertips, mainly cause of personal testing for expansion after penetrating several layers of denim (Gold Dots did not do well back then). Now days I use the Critical Defense when in the house. When I go outdoors the 'target' is more likely not human so I will have a snake shot round first and then some heavy flat nose solid bullets. Overpenetration is not an issue in that arena.

Basically there is no one answer. Figure out what your likely scenario will be and choose accordingly.

[Bill*B]

I think that RED BEAR nailed it. Any .357 Magnum load is going to get the job done, and pronto.

[lefty o]

the one that you can put where you desire.

[Bigslug]

Over penetration is no joke. Nobody wants to survive a bad guy and then go broke in court when the innocent bystander takes you to the cleaners, which they will do.

Soooo. . .#9 snakeshot then? :kidding:

I dunno. . .if you're worried about exits more than effective performance, I've kinda always felt that carrying may not be for you. The "what if this other guy kills me" is a much higher priority than the "what if there's somebody behind him?", the "what if the round still has some juice left when it's finished?", and the "Oh crud! I survived and ended up in court" There is some heat in that there self defense kitchen, and there is no asbestos suit to guard against all of it. Certainly, .357 is probably not the round of choice for the penetrationally timid in any event.

I've always leaned heavy toward the 145gr. Silvertip for that round. Probably a fair choice for a "one-bullet-for-all-cirumstances"

[Gray Fox]

10 years ago on a Federal contract deal I dealt with the required weapon was a fixed sight 4" heavy barrel .38 and the ammo was Remington +P 110 grain HP. The rationale for the latter was some FBI study that said it was good to prevent over penetration. The contracted guards were to be used in Social Security Offices and Federal district court rooms. To the best of my knowledge a round was not fired in response to a threat during the 5-year contract so I have no report as to the round's effectiveness. A humorous side note is the contract was held up for a couple months because the first issued request for contract proposals called for the above handgun and 180 grain .40 S&W ammo. Bureaucrats, got to love them. GF

[wl620]

I carry 158 xtp’s in my 3”sp101 another option would be a 358156 hollowpoint in 38 special case with 13grs. 2400 crimped in the lower crimp groove it worked for Skeeter and it shoots good in my guns. But i mostly use 200gr xtp’s in 45 auto cases running out of the gun around 950fps, dont know how they work on 2 legged varmints but they kill deer like lightning if you put them in the right place, probably less chance of over penetration also,if you dont have a 45 its a good excuse to get one!

[Livin_cincy]

I am going to give you an option for "urban carry". One thing to keep in mind is a revolver is easy to reload and change ammo. If you carry a speed loader full of "bear loads" you can handle anything not expected.

With that said, look at the old 38 Spacial FBI loads. A soft lead 158 grain hollow point moving at 900-950 fps. Keep in mind that load data is for long barrels and not a snubby. It seems that 900 is a magic number for HP expansion. So to get the velocity of a 7" 38 Special out of a 2" snubbie you will need to load to a +P or even a light 357 load.

When going up from 38+P load data the grains "jump" to fill a 357 case for a given powder. You will just have to look at your powder data and select a charge to start with. You can see it if you list the load data for a bullet going from 38, 38+P, to 357 load data.

The soft lead 158 grain bullet will expand and deliver all of its energy if it stays in the target. A blown out 4" exit hole from a 357 Magnum is devastating. But so is the bullet when it hits another target.

A lot of people get worried about getting two holes per shot. If you think about you standard bad guy silhouette target you are shooting straight at the target. This is in contrast to a Deer shot "broadsides" thru one side, two lungs, and out the other side. So if you puncture a lung you have eliminated its function. The exit/second hole does less critical damage. Think of your handgun bullets as a rapier making holes and not a brick with knock down & explosive tissue ability.

Here is a target ready soft lead 158gr:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/258551/speer-bullets-38-caliber-358-diameter-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-box-of-500

To keep it simple, look at Hodgdon HP-38 LSWC powder data:
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
HP-38 is an olde powder designed for the 38 Special case & Bullseye shooting.

Using a 357 Magnum Case a 10" barrel produced a max of 1109 fps.
If you loose 25fps for each of the 8" you loose 200fps and get about 900 fps.

If you switch to Universal Powder you get 1250 out of that 10" test barrel.
So a you can get your 900-950 with this powder much easier.

You can look at all the manufactures and find similar examples.

These are also inexpensive components... so you can become very proficient.

[azrednek]

I used to carry a 357 until hearing a case while sitting on a grand jury. The defendant shot a man in self defense. Without revealing much detail about the incident. The prosecutor told us he was cleared and it was justifiable. The problem was the bullet going through the bad guy striking a woman that was not in any way involved. The justifiable shooter was charged with a serious assault felony for hitting the woman. The only details about the woman was surgery and an overnight hospital stay. I was the first juror to ask a question "what kind of gun" cop got 357 out of his mouth. The prosecutor interrupted telling cop "don't answer that question". I then got a lecture from the 300lb+ female prosecutor. "This is not CSI, you are jurors" then on and on about we are only to decide based on the evidence presented. Despite mine and one other juror's no vote the indictment went forward.

That night I removed the 357's and loaded 38's in my revolver. Now days I carry a 9MM loaded with Silvertips worrying about over penetration.

[Petrol & Powder]

As expected, this thread produced a lot responses and we're not done yet.

From the old revolver days of LE, we got a pretty large body of data based on actual shootings. All handguns are poor choices for self-defense when compared to long guns but long guns are not practical all of the time. Of the handguns that are available, the 4" .357 magnum is no joke. It is one of the most effective handgun rounds when it comes to self-defense.

The .357 mag round that achieved the best street results back in the 1970's and 1980's was the 125 grain, semi-jacketed, semi-wadcutter, hollowpoint. Various manufactures produced versions of the round but the classic was probably the Federal 357B
223696

Many large metropolitan police departments used the 125 gr round and reported excellent results. One mid-western city PD reported nearly 100% success in stopping bad guys with that round and that included a lot off-duty shootings with short barreled revolvers. The track record of the .357 mag 125gr, HP is one of the best of all of the handgun rounds.

Normally with a 38 Special I want to be right in that 150-160 grain range but the .357 mag velocities are so much greater that you can drop the bullet weight to 125 grains and still get all of the penetration you want. The 158 grain slugs fired at .357 mag velocities are going to penetrate excessively even with soft lead and big hollowpoints.

HOWEVER, I'm with Car-gar in terms of home defense. I wouldn't want to shoot that magnum round in a confined space, like my house. I do not like handguns for home defense. There's no need for a small concealable weapon in your home; just use a shotgun. If I was going to rely on a 4" DA revolver for home defense, I'd probably go with a 38 Special +P 158grain LSWC [aka - The FBI Load].

[Jeffrey]

CorBon's Glaser Safety Slug is my choice for carry ammunition in warm weather or indoors. Cold weather: Federal HydroShock. The Glaser is a pre-fragmented projectile that will not over penetrate. "Blue" uses #12 shot compressed as a core. "Silver" uses #6 shot. Pricey ammo. https://shopcorbon.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=417

[rfd]

for urban carry, mild preferred over wild, 125g hi-tec over 5g of w231 for me. easy on everything but its target.

223699

[Petrol & Powder]

CorBon's Glaser Safety Slug is my choice for carry ammunition in warm weather or indoors. Cold weather: Federal HydroShock. The Glaser is a pre-fragmented projectile that will not over penetrate. "Blue" uses #12 shot compressed as a core. "Silver" uses #6 shot. Pricey ammo. https://shopcorbon.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=417

Although the bullet is different, I suspect the current 125 grain Federal Hydroshock .357 is very close to the old Federal 357B load.
Some things never change.

[OS OK]

You are definitely going to have do all you can to pick your shot. You don't know what the bad guy will be wearing or how heavy he is or how much of him is muscle or how far away he will be or how many bones you'll hit, nor if they are at skin level or deep within the meat. So there's no magic boolit that will penetrate effectively and never come out the other side. You just have to get one that will punch through his clothes and into him and do your best to make sure the backstop is clear. Try not to take shots in a movie theater or while in line at the grocery store if you can help it, but I'd rather have a lengthy court battle than be dead. While I haven't had to shoot anybody, I do expect it will be in a more private setting when they come for me personally.

When those stinkin lawyers are done with you you'll wish you were dead...what's the difference?

[Petrol & Powder]

When those stinkin lawyers are done with you you'll wish you were dead...what's the difference?

The difference is you must be alive in order to be able to wish you were dead.

[am44mag]

To answer a few questions, the gun if for predators of the two legged variety, and it will be carried everywhere from the woods to a college campus. My gun is a 3" Ruger SP101.

I did a little research and found this gem. https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

The FBI standard for penetration is 12"-18"

125gr Gold dot at 1200 FPS (2"barrel) penetrated on average 29.5" Expansion was not great.

https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/geltest/860/357Mag125JHP23920SpeerGD-2in-01.jpg

125gr Gold Dot at 1427 FPS (4" barrel) penetrated on average 19.3". Expansion was great.

https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/geltest/860/357Mag125JHP23920SpeerGD-4in-01.jpg

The 135gr Gold Dots actually looks better. They were trucking along at 1069 FPS and 1184 FPS for a 2" and 4" barrel. Expansion was similar on both. The 1069 FPS load penetrated 13" while the 1184 FPS load penetrated 15.6". As far as the FBI standard goes, that's right in the sweet spot. In fact, a lot of other loads hit right around this sweet spot. It seems like the issue with the 125gr gold dots was that they needed a lot of speed to work right, and they're not getting that speed in a 2" revolver. The 135gr doesn't seem to have that issue as they expand fully at lower velocities.

https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/geltest/860/357mag135jhpSpeerGDSB-2in-01.jpg

The Remington Semi Jacketed bullets also seems to be a good choice, and is certainly a proven one too. It's been around for quite some time. The 125gr version would certainly work. The round out of a 2" barrel gets 1209 FPS and penetrates 10.5".

https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/geltest/860/357Mag125SJHPRemUMC-2in-01.jpg

Out of a 4" barrel, it's smoking at 1473 FPS, and penetrates 13.6". It should be noted though that the round did lose more than 20% of it's weight.

https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/geltest/860/357Mag125SJHPRemUMC-4in-01.jpg

The 158gr version of the Remington SJHP looks promising if you keep the velocity down a bit. It's getting 1115 FPS and 14.2" of penetration out of a 2" barrel, and 1287 FPS and 19.9" of penetration out of a 4" barrel. It does not have a issue with shedding weight. A load giving around 1200 FPS or less would probably be ideal.

https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/geltest/860/357Mag158SJHPrtp357m2Rem-2in-01.jpg

The nice thing about them is that they're cheap and available. They're $5 or $6 less per 100 than most other hollow points, and the 135gr Gold Dots appear to be unavailable right now. Midway USA, Midsouth Shooters Supply, and Grafs were all out, and back order wasn't available.

For the sake of comparison, Here's the results for some other calibers. https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

124gr 9mm penetrates around 18"-20" and 230gr 45 ACP penetrates around 14.5"-18". Certain loads in both can over penetrate and even .380 can over penetrate. Most of it's loads either barely made it to the FBI standard, or were just under it, but a few blew right past it into the 20" range.

After reading these results, I don't have much faith in the over-penetration argument. All of these rounds are fully capable of over penetrating. With the right bullet at the right speed, I don't believe it would be an issue. At lease not any more so than any other common self defense round.

[Texas by God]

Based on cattle water trough tests of mine, I liked the Hornady Critical Defense the best.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Petrol & Powder]

Perfectly mushroomed bullets may sell ammunition but 40 years worth of empirical data derived from actual street shootings seems like a better yardstick to me. And, I've never been attacked by a block of gelatin. You are free to use whatever data you like.

[jmort]

You should call the FBI and offer your services as their ballistics expert. Tell them their testing protocols are flawed and worthless. Seriously, unless we revert to testing on goats, ballistic gelatin offers a unform testing medium along with the barrier tests. I think wet newspaper to be a good test medium, but who reads newspapers any more???

[UKShootist]

Some observations from a man in a country where firearms are prohibited to ordinary people for self defence.

When talking about defending yourself you can always up the ante on the size of the villain. You can end up wanting a .50 cal machine gun firing armour piercing bullets and laying land mines in the hallway and by the back doors and still find a reason to have more.

What is the main risk you are likely to face? I read an interesting article on handgun stopping power a while back. Rather than talking about terminal ballistics it spoke in terms of "did the gun stop the attack?". Statistics were taken from incidents reported. The overall conclusion is that shooting back with almost anything will mostly stop attacks. Scumbags don't like to be shot at, it gives them the impression that they are not in charge.

My vote goes for a shotgun in the home, loaded with probably lightish shot. At close range it will still cut a perpetrator near in half. At any range inside a home it will hit and do serious enough damage to put just about anyone off their plans, not to mention deafening everyone in the room. Outside the home, I would favour a revolver with a fairly lightweight round, possibly a .22 Magnum shooting sort point ammo. Again, that will do a lot of damage, won't be too loud and disorienting for the shooter, and remember, you aren't limited to one round. Revolvers rarely jam whereas semi autos do, and if competitions I have engaged in are anything to judge by, only when you really don't want them to.

How'm I doin'?

[Texas by God]

Spot on, UKshooter. The shotgun is first choice no matter the varmint. Most rooms in our house feature one(at least).

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Petrol & Powder]

You can be as flippant as you wish but back in the days of LE revolver and before the 1986 Miami Shootout that resulted in the creation of those FBI ballistic standards; actual results were the primary standard to evaluate a cartridge used for self-defense.
While I don't think the FBI terminal ballistic standards are necessarily bad, I do think they should only be a part of the evaluation rather than the sole basis for evaluation.

If someone is trying to do serious harm to you, I can assure you that stopping that person is far more important to you than producing beautifully consistent mushroomed bullets.
Somewhere along the line ammunition manufactures realized that consumers have been conditioned to think that perfectly mushroomed spent projectiles are a sign of quality.
Factors such as penetration, frontal area and weight retention ARE important but the only real test is - "does the bullet do enough damage to incapacitate the attacker before he/she harms me".
Pictures of perfectly mushroomed bullets are A sign of potential performance but actual results are the other important half of that evaluation.

I'm not going to go back and forth about this bullet or that bullet. Cartridge wars are pointless. I will stand by what I said earlier: back when revolvers were common in American law enforcement, departments than allowed the use of the .357 magnum saw excellent actual results from the 125 grain, JHP in .357 magnum.
Just because something is old, doesn't mean it is bad or outdated.

[lefty o]

Some observations from a man in a country where firearms are prohibited to ordinary people for self defence.

When talking about defending yourself you can always up the ante on the size of the villain. You can end up wanting a .50 cal machine gun firing armour piercing bullets and laying land mines in the hallway and by the back doors and still find a reason to have more.

What is the main risk you are likely to face? I read an interesting article on handgun stopping power a while back. Rather than talking about terminal ballistics it spoke in terms of "did the gun stop the attack?". Statistics were taken from incidents reported. The overall conclusion is that shooting back with almost anything will mostly stop attacks. Scumbags don't like to be shot at, it gives them the impression that they are not in charge.

My vote goes for a shotgun in the home, loaded with probably lightish shot. At close range it will still cut a perpetrator near in half. At any range inside a home it will hit and do serious enough damage to put just about anyone off their plans, not to mention deafening everyone in the room. Outside the home, I would favour a revolver with a fairly lightweight round, possibly a .22 Magnum shooting sort point ammo. Again, that will do a lot of damage, won't be too loud and disorienting for the shooter, and remember, you aren't limited to one round. Revolvers rarely jam whereas semi autos do, and if competitions I have engaged in are anything to judge by, only when you really don't want them to.

How'm I doin'?

your somewhat ok, except the "lightish" shot doesnt really cut it. ive shot enough small animals with 7.5, and 8 shot to know firsthand it doesnt kill very well.

[megasupermagnum]

your somewhat ok, except the "lightish" shot doesnt really cut it. ive shot enough small animals with 7.5, and 8 shot to know firsthand it doesnt kill very well.

I always get a kick out of the whole over penetration thing with walls. Anything that has the ability to stop a person, will go through drywall. Even #8 will go through a wall and could seriously hurt or kill a person on the other side. I wouldn't advise FMJ rifle ammo in a city apartment, but most buckshot sizes are a good choice.

As for bullet over penetration for a carry gun. I've gone back and forth on that issue, and I just don't know. Again, anything that will stop a person right now is going through both sides of a person. What's the fastest way to stop an attacker? A CNS hit. I definitely don't want bullets to stop inside a person, I want them going through the spine if possible. A much more real threat to me is the 4 legged variety. Deer attack way more people than anything, at least where I live, as well as dogs, and I'm often in bear territory. If I were to carry a 357 mag, I would use a 170 grain SWC cast semi-soft or a 158 grain soft point.

[tazman]

I have given this topic a lot of thought over time. Since I don't know your circumstances or how good a shot you are, I can't give a recommendation. I can only tell you what I do and why.
For home defense, I have a 12 gauge pump loaded with duck loads of steel BBs next to the bed. It seems to be a nice compromise between buckshot and light pellets. Nothing else to recommend that size other than my choice.
I also have a 9mm loaded with 124 grain hollow points with an extra mag. The reason for this is, if the bad guy gets behind family member, I want something more precise than a shotgun. If the bad guy gives me an eyeball or more to shoot at across my house, that will be all I need. I am not a superb shot but at close range I am good enough. I don't worry about over penetration since the closest house is over 100 yards away.
There are other handguns stashed in appropriate places in the house where I tend to spend time.
For carry outside, I have a number of choices that range from an XD-E in 9mm to a S&W model 60 which I carry with 38 special 125 grain hollow points as well as a couple of larger size handguns. I use these because I can shoot them accurately and I shoot them often enough that I don't have to think about what to do to make them work.
For carry when hunting, I have a 686 with a 6 inch barrel. It is usually loaded with 158 grain soft nose depending in part on where I am. The biggest threat where I go hunting are packs of dogs and coyotes. There is an occasional cougar around but you never see them.
All my semi-auto pistols use the same manual of arms. I don't want to have to think about which pistol I am using that day. That is why I went with Taurus PT92 instead of a Beretta 92FS.
I have a couple of 22 pistols for target shooting that work differently but they will never be used for defense.
This is what I have chosen because of my circumstances. You will need to decide what works for you in your circumstances.

[am44mag]

You should call the FBI and offer your services as their ballistics expert. Tell them their testing protocols are flawed and worthless. Seriously, unless we revert to testing on goats, ballistic gelatin offers a unform testing medium along with the barrier tests. I think wet newspaper to be a good test medium, but who reads newspapers any more???

Not sure where you came to the conclusion that I was any kind of expert in anything. The FBI standards may be flawed in some ways (no test isn't without it's flaws), but it's certainly a useful tool. Primarily in showing how much a specific round will penetrate compared to others. If a 357 load and a 9mm load both penetrate about the same in a uniform medium, then under similar circumstances in a human body, they should penetrate about the same amount. Of course there are always things that can happen as the human body is not uniform. Bones, organs, air space, ect, can effect a round. Of course at the point that you argue what if scenarios about how a round could hit the right spot and pass straight through, the tests stop meaning much. At that point, a 45 ACP and a 357 magnum are both likely to over penetrate.

Wet newspaper is a great medium, but it's more or less a uniform one much like ballistic gelatin, only a lot more dense. As you said, short of testing the rounds on pigs or goats, we can only speculate about what the rounds will actually do.

[am44mag]

Based on cattle water trough tests of mine, I liked the Hornady Critical Defense the best.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

The Critical Defense stuff is good. I've carried in in my 1911 before, and it packs a punch. The gel tests looked great on it too. The only down side was that I can't find those bullets for sale. I have to buy loaded ammo, which can be an issue if you like to thoroughly test a round and practice with it. That stuff can be a bit pricey.


Perfectly mushroomed bullets may sell ammunition but 40 years worth of empirical data derived from actual street shootings seems like a better yardstick to me. And, I've never been attacked by a block of gelatin. You are free to use whatever data you like.


You can be as flippant as you wish but back in the days of LE revolver and before the 1986 Miami Shootout that resulted in the creation of those FBI ballistic standards; actual results were the primary standard to evaluate a cartridge used for self-defense.
While I don't think the FBI terminal ballistic standards are necessarily bad, I do think they should only be a part of the evaluation rather than the sole basis for evaluation.

If someone is trying to do serious harm to you, I can assure you that stopping that person is far more important to you than producing beautifully consistent mushroomed bullets.
Somewhere along the line ammunition manufactures realized that consumers have been conditioned to think that perfectly mushroomed spent projectiles are a sign of quality.
Factors such as penetration, frontal area and weight retention ARE important but the only real test is - "does the bullet do enough damage to incapacitate the attacker before he/she harms me".
Pictures of perfectly mushroomed bullets are A sign of potential performance but actual results are the other important half of that evaluation.

I'm not going to go back and forth about this bullet or that bullet. Cartridge wars are pointless. I will stand by what I said earlier: back when revolvers were common in American law enforcement, departments than allowed the use of the .357 magnum saw excellent actual results from the 125 grain, JHP in .357 magnum.
Just because something is old, doesn't mean it is bad or outdated.

Absolutely. I never said or thought the FBI tests were be all end all of testing. I plan on doing a bit of testing myself. Short of testing the rounds on something living, any test will nothing more than an educated speculation about what will actually happen. I certainly don't plan on getting into enough gun fights to prove the effectiveness of these rounds. The Remington 125gr has quite the pedigree though. From what I understand, back in the day it was considered premium stuff, and still to this day performs well enough to be a serious contended for self defense ammo. Likewise, Speer Gold Dots are extremely well tested and proven rounds. So much so that many consider them an industry standard for good self defense ammo.

As for being flippant, who? Me? I don't think I have been at any point, and I certainly never intended to be.


Some observations from a man in a country where firearms are prohibited to ordinary people for self defence.

When talking about defending yourself you can always up the ante on the size of the villain. You can end up wanting a .50 cal machine gun firing armour piercing bullets and laying land mines in the hallway and by the back doors and still find a reason to have more.

What is the main risk you are likely to face? I read an interesting article on handgun stopping power a while back. Rather than talking about terminal ballistics it spoke in terms of "did the gun stop the attack?". Statistics were taken from incidents reported. The overall conclusion is that shooting back with almost anything will mostly stop attacks. Scumbags don't like to be shot at, it gives them the impression that they are not in charge.

My vote goes for a shotgun in the home, loaded with probably lightish shot. At close range it will still cut a perpetrator near in half. At any range inside a home it will hit and do serious enough damage to put just about anyone off their plans, not to mention deafening everyone in the room. Outside the home, I would favour a revolver with a fairly lightweight round, possibly a .22 Magnum shooting sort point ammo. Again, that will do a lot of damage, won't be too loud and disorienting for the shooter, and remember, you aren't limited to one round. Revolvers rarely jam whereas semi autos do, and if competitions I have engaged in are anything to judge by, only when you really don't want them to.

How'm I doin'?

Well a shotgun won't fit in my pocket so I can't carry it with me. :p

The whole rifle vs shotgun vs handgun argument is worth it's own debate. Where I live, I can use anything I want without worrying about over penetration. That said, I still choose a 1911 in 45 ACP over a long gun for the simple reason that it's faster and easier to maneuver. For my home, that is what I need.

[megasupermagnum]

I've always held the opinion that a good self defense cartridge should be capable of hunting medium size game, or large if you are in grizzly territory. Deer are plentiful, and if you were going to hunt anyway, it's a good way to test out your bullets. 357 mag and 45 acp are plenty for whitetail, assuming you are are a good enough marksman.

Lots of people will argue that wild animals are tougher than a person. I say no way, but that's beside the point. If you expect a bullet to IMMEDIATELY STOP a human being, who can get well over 300 pounds, why wouldn't you expect that bullet to also harvest a deer humanely? You only need the deer to die in a reasonable amount of time, yet you need to stop an attacker (animal or otherwise) in its tracks.

[Forrest r]

Actually the "fbi" tests are an excellent place to start & end for that matter.

What 99+% of the people that type about the "fbi" testing don't get is there's actually 6 different tests with 4 of them dealing with some type of barrier/material that simulates real world issues/results. So when you see someone typing about the "fbi" testing with gel, they're doing real good because they got 16% of what they're talking about correct. Oddly enough awhile back I brought up testing concerns about shooting into cars. Several people on this website thought that type of testing was way over the top/extravagant and was not needed. Hate to say it but the fbi does 1 gel test and 2 tests for cars (that use barriers + gel). The metal part of the test carry's over to metal clad doors/thin metal barriers and the window test is just that, bullet vs window. And yes other things use/have glass besides cars.

As usual there's the perfect eye candy mushroom thing in this thread. Why would sd ammo want/need a hp that mushrooms and retains it's weight??? A bigger wound channel/cavity comes to mind. The expanded/mushroomed bullets slows the bullet down. The weight retention ='s momentum so when a bullet stays intact it carries more momentum/has greater penetration.

The 16 %er's talk about the gel test, great!!! Then that same ammo (if it passes the gel test) get tested with the drywall test. If that ammo doesn't pass the drywall test it isn't even considered for use.

drywall test ='s:
Two pieces of ½ inch standard gypsum board are set 3.5 inches apart. The gelatin
block is placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of gypsum. This test event simulates a typical building
interior wall. Just for the heck of it they put cloth on the gelatin block used in the drywall test. Tests 3-6 utilize light clothing (e.g. the cotton t-shirt and dress shirt materials above),
in addition to the mentioned intermediate barrier.

Sorta makes ya wonder when you see a post with the "fbi gel test" and "but the bullet goes thru drywall" in the same post. How about the "fbi" test wants the bullet to go thru drywall and the clothed gel block.

125gr bullets were/are nothing more than a band aid/quick fix for the 357. HP/bullet design has come a long way since the adoption of the fbi/125gr combo. Bullets that pass "all" of the fbi tests costs $$$, Hornady has an excellent line of sd ammo that does pass all 6 tests.

Myself, I carry a 586 l-comp when I carry a 357 with a 158gr cast lead hp/1200fps load. I don't want the hp to open/mushroom/stay intact. I cast that bullet hard enough so that the hp explodes/shatters with the 1200fps load.

[sniper]

NOPE! But, through the years of reloading, and reading " the experts": Marshall & Sanow, Ayoob, Harris, Skelton and others, several things have stuck in my mind.

1. You shoot best what kicks and deafens you least. Few people can handle well the 125gr./1400+ fps 357 Magnum cartridges, or afford to practice regularly with them! So, a good "mild magnum, like Remington's oold SJWC load at ~1200 fps, current Golden Saber rounds, or C.E. Harris' recommendation of a "full Wadcutter" load, or even a .38 Spl +P load by one of the major manufacturers might be a better choice for most people.

2. Shot placement is paramount! "You can't miss fast enough to win"...or survive!

3. Overpenetration is a real fact. The first I even considered it a problem was watching an old Robert Blake movie "Electra
Glide In Blue", or something similar to that. He either shot at and missed or had a complete penetration of a bad guy, and iirc, an old man in the slightly out-of-focus background was hit.Of course, it was only a movie! But, it did cause me to think!

4. According to an article in Handloader magazine, Speer jacketed boolits must reach 850 fps or so for reliable expansion to take place, and probably other brands of ammunition/boolets will display similar characteristics.

5. Although there will be many who will disagree with me, handloaded ammunition for self-defense is never a good idea! Prosecutors and juries nowadays being who they are, just one more negative to overcome, or as Ayoob says, "an uphill fight." Good, reliable ammunition from a major manufacturer that has a documented success history will cover that base, and increase confidence.

6. It is terribly expen$ive to shoot with the premium, major manufacturer's ammunition. Experience shooting even the humble .22 Long rifle carries over to other areas of shooting! If you reload, try to duplicate the recoil and blast effects of carry ammunition, so it will not be a big surprise when you do shoot the real stuff. Then, practice/receive as much training as you can afford. Competition...IPSC or the like, Bowling Pin matches, etc, can provide experience, and if you are like me, raises the stress level significantly!

Mt opinion(s), worth exactly what you paid for them. :mrgreen:

[LUCKYDAWG13]

5. Although there will be many who will disagree with me, handloaded ammunition for self-defense is never a good idea! Prosecutors and juries nowadays being who they are, just one more negative to overcome, or as Ayoob says, "an uphill fight." Good, reliable ammunition from a major manufacturer that has a documented success history will cover that base, and increase confidence.



Mt opinion(s), worth exactly what you paid for them. :mrgreen:[/QUOTE]

I see this brought up a lot and I agree that it may come up in court But has it ever ?

[Char-Gar]

5. Although there will be many who will disagree with me, handloaded ammunition for self-defense is never a good idea! Prosecutors and juries nowadays being who they are, just one more negative to overcome, or as Ayoob says, "an uphill fight." Good, reliable ammunition from a major manufacturer that has a documented success history will cover that base, and increase confidence.



Mt opinion(s), worth exactly what you paid for them. :mrgreen:

I see this brought up a lot and I agree that it may come up in court But has it ever ?[/QUOTE]

No, it has never been an issue in any court in the land. It is a total myth fabricated by Ayoub to give him something to write and speak about. It has been so thoroughly discredited over the years, that I am surprised it still comes up.

[am44mag]

5. Although there will be many who will disagree with me, handloaded ammunition for self-defense is never a good idea! Prosecutors and juries nowadays being who they are, just one more negative to overcome, or as Ayoob says, "an uphill fight." Good, reliable ammunition from a major manufacturer that has a documented success history will cover that base, and increase confidence.



Mt opinion(s), worth exactly what you paid for them. :mrgreen:

I see this brought up a lot and I agree that it may come up in court But has it ever ?

Nope, and considering the number of people who do it anyways like me and numerous others on this board, I would say that if it was an actual issue, we would have seen cases about it by now. That argument MIGHT hold some water in California where common sense ain't so common, but not in Texas, Oklahoma, or probably most other states.

[Gray Fox]

You know, the worst part of all this discussion is that if we consider a 3" Charter Arms .44 special loaded with either a 240 SWC or a 200 WC boolit at about 825 fps we don't have to worry about if the projectile will expand at all. Then there's the Charter .45 acp Pitbull loaded with a 200-225 grain RNFP or SWC with only a little more size and recoil. Don't get me wrong, I have more S&W .357s than anyone needs, but I ought to just carry the 3" Charter .44 and not be concerned about the recoil and muzzle blast. It sure does keep threads like this active, though, and gets the blood moving. GF

[farmerjim]

Nobody has listed Liberty civil defense. I use them mixed with my cast loads in my 9 and 380. They are both 50 grain deep hollow points that break off into 5 parts. 4 from the tip spread and the one from the base penetrates. The 9 has a muzzle velocity of 2,000 FPS.

[megasupermagnum]

You know, the worst part of all this discussion is that if we consider a 3" Charter Arms .44 special loaded with either a 240 SWC or a 200 WC boolit at about 825 fps we don't have to worry about if the projectile will expand at all. Then there's the Charter .45 acp Pitbull loaded with a 200-225 grain RNFP or SWC with only a little more size and recoil. Don't get me wrong, I have more S&W .357s than anyone needs, but I ought to just carry the 3" Charter .44 and not be concerned about the recoil and muzzle blast. It sure does keep threads like this active, though, and gets the blood moving. GF

You might have something with the full wadcutter, but a non-expanding 44 caliber is still not a very big hole in my experience. I've only seen a few deer shot with hard cast, and it was not impressive. It depends, but a meplat on a 44 SWC is somewhere in the ballpark of .280" maybe a bit bigger for some. Any hollow point 357 mag that opens up is going to be way over that. I prefer soft points which still expand to well over .280". I like a soft SWC, it just kind of rivets into a full wadcutter, or a little bigger, while still loading quicker.

[Forrest r]

Nobody has listed Liberty civil defense. I use them mixed with my cast loads in my 9 and 380. They are both 50 grain deep hollow points that break off into 5 parts. 4 from the tip spread and the one from the base penetrates. The 9 has a muzzle velocity of 2,000 FPS.

+1 ^^^^

Hence the nose of the hp that frags/same affect. There's a +/- 125gr body of the bullet left that's nothing more than a 125gr wc that keeps going. The lighter 125gr wc looses momentum fast but is still effective. Testing in clothed wetpack resulted in a entry hole, a couple of inches of permanent wound channel the size of a quarter with spreading trails & the wc/body ended up at +/- 7 1/2" of penetration.

[Groo]

Groo here
The first thing is : What do you want to do? To stop a deer requires you to hit bone to stop a person requires you to make him/her to give up..........
This could take a pin in the thumb, or a 12ga to the chest.
Most all bullets are built to the FBI spec and perform the same. In my mind,poorly.
You need to make "pain" [Keith said SLAP or reaction to the shot] this means damage the most nerves.
Modern bullets are made to cause bleeding[takes up to 2 min to work] and are just backwards.
We should damage skin first make much pain, then drive in to cause bleeding.
Larger bullets [ the larger the flat nose the better] do this ,or high speed lighter bullets [like 357 125gr with a large amount of lead out side the jacket] that start to deform on the surface.
This is where the auto is at a disadvantage.
The HP must go from the mag ,hit the feed ramp, slide up that, hit the top of the chamber and rattle onto the chamber.
The revolver need only resist handling and dropped into the chamber.
So the revolver CAN always be made to deform quicker.
If you can't shoot a load with an impact speed of 900 to 1000fps [to insure deformation] get the largest flat nose you can find.

[Mr_Sheesh]

I don't know where some people get their info on Semi-Auto pistol reliability. My experience with the 1911 has been pretty darned good, once they are set up right. If you feed it bad ammo (overcharges, undercharges, or wadcutter boolits) it won't be as reliable and you'll get stovepipes or (in the case of overcharges) the magazine blown out the bottom of the gun - So don't DO any of those. Other than those I get maybe 3 FTF's in 10k rounds? (Family member gave me some of their ammo, without telling me, and friend borrowed it to use up his handloads, sigh.) And I'm counting the 45ACP shotshells I've fired here. I've had revolvers be about as reliable (but then I shoot some low powered loads in them and have primers back out, not that hard to fix those, tho annoying as it's harder than fixing a semi auto FTF.) I've been listening since 1965 for any court case against anyone loading handloads, never heard of one; If you loaded something like a shot capsule with the shot soaked in cyanide, or Ricin, or other toxins, I can see how you COULD / WOULD get in trouble, but if you just load cast hardball RN or TC 230 grain at a reasonable pressure, that's not going to go badly I'd think. Or even a J-word HP bullet. Unless you run it at 50k PSI or something, and THEN its going to be Murphy kicking you in the face! Let's stay with the truth about Semi-Autos, please, they're dang reliable, if you do your part.

[maglvr]

Full wadcutter, 160gr or more @ 1000fps, game over!

[Lance Boyle]

Agreed. The handgun is inferior to a long gun in most people’s hands.

For indoors at home the venerable shotgun is probably handier. You will like blast your own ears with any gun indoors. After the shotgun the old days the M1 carbine was recommended because it was very handy sized and sufficient. Loaded with Remington soft points. Still going to over penetrate. The evil black AR 15 or more political acceptable mini 14 with frangibles like typical ballistic tip types will actually be less of a secondary over penetrator. It will come apart in the illegal agressor, it will break up while going through a full dry wall interior or exterior wall. The fragment are a lower threat and will lose momentum much faster takin to the B.B. shotgun load previously brought up. Which people may laugh at the steel B.B. goose load for defense. Those BBs will zip through a coyote and are no joke. In close on a two legged coyote and I would hazard you are not saving the pelt on that one. An ER doctor also would have his hands full if that hit the vermin while in close in a tight pattern. Not enough healthy cohesive tissue to stitch back together if it was a close shot.

All of these arguments in the thread are a fine discussion but you will have a hard time predicting the tragic scenario you might encounter. You may be home, you may be in the store, you may be fully or half in your vehicle while approached, you may be on the river bank fishing or deep in the woods. Heck it might be a man or it might be a moose with a calf trying to stomp you or a mountain lion sizing you up for dinner.


ETA to back up to the OP’s question I do not carry my .357s much at the moment but I do lean to a jacketed 158. I know it’s not perfect but it is sufficient. I do have some hornady critical defense that came with the colt python deal of the century but I probably wouldn’t re buy them. I shy away from the 125s due to the old issue in k frames and cracking cones. The internet whizdom says it’s the short shank that isn’t supported from the throat into the forcing cone and gets tilted then violently straightened. The 158s bridge the gap making a better transition so I go with that.

No one argument we have discussed will fit every scenario. Somebody mentioned freedom before and that’s appropriate, we have the freedom to take stock of our own little world and what information we have like we kicked around here and make our best guess for carry for us. Yay freedom.

[arlon]

I know I'm going to get a ton of different answers here, but what do you think it the ideal 357 mag self defense round? A lot of people seem to prefer 125gr HPs, some prefer 158 HPs, others say there penetrate too much. Some are fine with 158gr SWCs, but again, people think over penetration will be an issue.

I'm kind of leaning towards a 125gr Gold Dot HP at about 1400-1500 FPS.

Self defense against what?

[Mr_Sheesh]

I'd think with the current political situation, sadly, it's 2-legged wolves mostly, with occasional ticked off deer or black bear thrown in just to muddy the situation.

[LAH]

If I had to carry a 357 for self defense it would be a 4" sixgun using a 125 JHP at 1200 FPS.

[Jtarm]

That is still going to sail on through the bad guy and takeout whoever it behind him or her. Some years ago, there was a big prison riot when a guard shot an inmate with the old 38 Special 158 grain rounds nose and took out another inmate across the yard.

Over penetration is no joke. Nobody wants to survive a bad guy and then go broke in court when the innocent bystander takes you to the cleaners, which they will do.

Or worse, take out the bad guy and one of your kids in another room.

[Jtarm]

I a 158 grain LHPSWC Remington 38 +p would more likely make the cut.

That’s my carry load.