Need advice on 1887 Winchester 10 Gauge ASAP!

[Kev18]

So I walked into a gun shop last week and the man asked me if I was interested in a 10 gauge. I said yes. He goes in the back and comes out with an 1887! I had been looking for one for a really long time. He said it wasnt for sale yet because the gunsmith hadn't looked at it. He showed me the gun with his little tag on it... It had the serial number, and 50$ on it. He paid it 50$ ! I told him to keep it in back for me until the gunsmith comes back ( hes on vacation until this Tuesday). So I need to head there at 2pm to check it out again. Anyways, I have questions.

Whats a decent price? He paid it 50$... I have the Gun Value book but Id like a more realistic price from someone who possibly owns/bought one. I saw some go from 1000-15,000.
I think if its over a grand il pass. It looks pristine condition though. :(

What shells can I feed it? I heard for the 10 gauge I would need to cut my own shells...?

Smokeless safe or BP only?

Will it give me trouble? Feeding, action problems... etc?



I cant sleep at night im really excited. The only thing bothering me is the price he'll throw at me once the gunsmith loks at it. The owner is more of a fishing guy so im sure he has no idea. Im probably just getting my hopes up :'(

[smkummer]

2 7/8” shells which most cut down themselves today. It’s my understanding not nitro proofed until the 1901 model so low pressure smokeless or blackpowder. I am loading low pressure smokeless for a 1878 Colt double barrel 10 gauge. I am only shooting 1 1/4 oz. shot though. So while you can get one of these old dinasours back shooting, their usefulness is really limited. But nothing wrong with getting a smile on your face shooting black powder at clay pigeons.

[Kev18]

2 7/8” shells which most cut down themselves today. It’s my understanding not nitro proofed until the 1901 model so low pressure smokeless or blackpowder. I am loading low pressure smokeless for a 1878 Colt double barrel 10 gauge. I am only shooting 1 1/4 oz. shot though. So while you can get one of these old dinasours back shooting, their usefulness is really limited. But nothing wrong with getting a smile on your face shooting black powder at clay pigeons.

Well if I load them up with BP they'd be good enough for hunting. Thats what they were designed for. Same thing with smokeless if I can get load data hopefully.

[Speedo66]

Sounds nice, good luck for a fair price! Be sure and let us know.

[Kev18]

Sounds nice, good luck for a fair price! Be sure and let us know.

Il post on here or il make a new thread for sure if I end up buying it! I hope he wont sell it at a ridiculous price :(

[MOA]

The 1887 models, both the 10 and 12 gauge were made for black powder. Winchester did not start using fluid steel until the 1901 model, that model is made for smokeless powders. I am working on data for both the 10 & 12 gauge. I have one of each arriving next week. I plan on trying to work up safe loads for both in bird shot and in buck shot. If your 10 is in good shape, and you can get it for under 1000, I'd be on it like stink on a skunk. Be sure to show up with the intent to at least spend that much. Combined mine cost a little over 2700. I'm going to be using bp supplies from BPI and Circle fly for the fillers and wadding, and Goex 2F for my powder. I have a few paper shells both ten and twelve gauge from back in the eighties when they were still sold, but I will take on a active hunt for new paper ten gauge hulls, twelve gauge paper will not be a issue.

Good luck on securing your ten. Not a lot of them out there, and they will only get more expensive in the future. That's a fact.

https://s19.postimg.cc/f2pnha7gz/2018-07-13_19_00_32-winchester_1887___Simpson_Ltd.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://s19.postimg.cc/3qd1zm1dv/2018-07-14_17_24_12-WINCHESTER_1887___Simpson_Ltd.png (https://postimages.org/)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Collectors go wild on original condition, rare variations and factory engraving sometimes. I think it would be a very exceptional 1887 that would sell for anywhere near the top end of that estimate. Dealers price to cover expenses, profit and having their cash tied up for a while, and sometimes they price them on the chance of what salmon fishermen term a blind one or a daft one, intending to lower the price if none shows up. To get a good idea of what they sell for, look at www.gunbroker.com and watch them till they sell. Bidding so far isn't much of a guide.

Still, your gun shop could charge a pretty massive markup on that $50 (if it isn't a label from a few decades ago), before you would be getting a bad deal on a sound 1887. It is an extremely usable gun. They perfected the double shotgun with that kind of barrel steel, in the days when smokeless powder was less predictable than it is now, and a single, with the need for weight to control recoil, is almost invariably stronger in the barrel than a double. The advantage in patterning of the 10 over a magnum 12 has taken a knock with the introduction of shot-cup wads and steel shot (and steel, by the way, shouldn't be used in this gun if it still has a choke.) But with the 2⅞in. shells and black or moderate smokeless loads, it is still an extremely effective firearm.

It looks clumsy, but the real measurement of how well a shotgun handles is the moment of inertia. Hang a shotgun horizontally by its point of balance, depress and release either end, and the fewer and briefer oscillations before it comes to rest, the lower its moment of inertia. A lot of people are surprised to find that such singles as the Greener GP Martini, the humble Stevens bolt-action box-magazine 12ga and the two-shot Browning when it has the alloy barrel, rank up there with the best hand-made doubles. The 1887, with those big shells in a tube magazine, won't be that good. But it is a whole lot better than it looks.

[Drm50]

Back in 60s when deer hunting took off big time in Ohio most guys just used their everyday shot
gun to hunt with. A guy using a 12g Win LA blew up the gun with a rifled slug. Luckily he wasn't
hurt seriously. He claimed it had been shot for years with modern 23/4" ammo. I was just a kid
then but I never forgot it. I have owned so nice BP shotguns, the last a beautiful Colt SxS. I don't
Subscribe to anything but BP in them. There are a lot of them around besides being twist are
badly pitted. The pressure curve on BP vs Smokeless is not the same and people not smart enough
to even know about chamber length are accidents waiting to happen. I have seen more than one
BP Twist ruptured by smokeless ammo. If I was into it and had a expensive gun I would use nothing but BP. Seems God protects fools and little children. I'm neither so I go for the safe way.

[MOA]

Drm50

I think you hit it on the head. It's so easy to think that I'll just use a lite load of smokeless and it will be ok. I'm sure it is tempting to many, but if you want to shoot smokeless, than the best way to do it is to buy a firearm made for smokeless powder.

[Kev18]

The 1887 models, both the 10 and 12 gauge were made for black powder. Winchester did not start using fluid steel until the 1901 model, that model is made for smokeless powders. I am working on data for both the 10 & 12 gauge. I have one of each arriving next week. I plan on trying to work up safe loads for both in bird shot and in buck shot. If your 10 is in good shape, and you can get it for under 1000, I'd be on it like stink on a skunk. Be sure to show up with the intent to at least spend that much. Combined mine cost a little over 2700. I'm going to be using bp supplies from BPI and Circle fly for the fillers and wadding, and Goex 2F for my powder. I have a few paper shells both ten and twelve gauge from back in the eighties when they were still sold, but I will take on a active hunt for new paper ten gauge hulls, twelve gauge paper will not be a issue.

Good luck on securing your ten. Not a lot of them out there, and they will only get more expensive in the future. That's a fact.

https://s19.postimg.cc/f2pnha7gz/2018-07-13_19_00_32-winchester_1887___Simpson_Ltd.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://s19.postimg.cc/3qd1zm1dv/2018-07-14_17_24_12-WINCHESTER_1887___Simpson_Ltd.png (https://postimages.org/)

If you have any progress on load data, can you post it here? IM talking like I already bought the gun, but im really excited! Thanks alot!

[Kev18]

Drm50

I think you hit it on the head. It's so easy to think that I'll just use a lite load of smokeless and it will be ok. I'm sure it is tempting to many, but if you want to shoot smokeless, than the best way to do it is to buy a firearm made for smokeless powder.

I have many rifles of the BP era, 1873 and an 1886. I use smokeless in all of them but i do some heavy research before adding any type of powder.
https://i.imgur.com/bjoArCT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DvofRUW.jpg

[MOA]

Kev, I know many do that. For myself I will stick to black on those guns made and ment for black. I wish you continued success in your endeavors with substituting smokeless.

[KCSO]

No heavy smokeless loads!!!! The receiver WILL crack. With the shorter b/p equivlant loads they are a hoot to shoot and it the extractors are good they work well but you have to get use to the long lever throw or you will be short stroking it. Even thought they are rated for smokeless after 1901 they are still not the strongest action and hence the lighter loads whatever you do don't slip in a modern long shell.

[Marlin356]

Back issues of Double Gun Jrnl have a HUGE series on modern smokeless in Damascus bbls.

I use the data for my 10 ga Ithaca cannon breech (2& 7/8) and my 12 ga 1894 Rem.

100s fired no issues.

NOTE: bores MUST be perfect. Any pitting is like tooth decay, small on the outside, bigger where you can't see.

[richhodg66]

There's a fella on here who posts in the shotgun forum a lot who has several old Damascus ten gauge doubles he shoots buck shot though. Can't remember what his screen name is at the moment, but he seems to have it figured out pretty well.

[MOA]

Well I think the op was specifically speaking to the 1887 model, NOT the Winchester model 1901. 1901 IS the model number in this case that Winchester used different steel in than what was used in the 1887 model. Easy to tell which model you have. That model 1901 has a two piece lever handle, and it was only made in 10 gauge. The 1887 was made in both 10 and 12 gauge, but when Winchester came out with the new an improved model 1901 they did not produce one chambered in 12 gauge. If it is a 1887 model, it is a black powder cartridge firing shotgun.

[MOA]

Kev18, I will post my work up and components along with my methodology so a complete grasp of my approach to these loading can be discerned.

[Kev18]

Kev18, I will post my work up and components along with my methodology so a complete grasp of my approach to these loading can be discerned.

Thanks alot!

[Kev18]

Went to the bank today and took out 500$ il see what he wants for it. Definitely not paying more than 1000$. He literally paid 50$ for it. Even 500$ is a 10x profit.

[Drm50]

I read somewhere that 87 is wire twist 12 or 10g. The 1901 was avaible with choice of barrel steel
and 10g only. I have several Levers and Single Shots from BP days. I load all them with light
loads of smokeless and cast bullets. A steel barrel is a different animal than a wire or ribbon twist
shotgun barrel but you still have to use common sense. I don't know anyone who blew up a old
rifle. I know several guys who blew up twist barrels. I hear the same old story they shot store
bought shells in it for years. That may be true but it finally lets loose and one could at any time.
I have also seen revolvers from BP days with cracked cylinders from smokeless loads.

I had a beautiful Austrian SxS 16g wire twist. I turned a couple dummy shells out of stainless and
bored them for 410. I have a buddy that has a German 10g single barrel. It's got steel barrels
but short chambers. I believe he was able to buy shells off a specialty outfit in Minn.

[Kev18]

I read somewhere that 87 is wire twist 12 or 10g. The 1901 was avaible with choice of barrel steel
and 10g only. I have several Levers and Single Shots from BP days. I load all them with light
loads of smokeless and cast bullets. A steel barrel is a different animal than a wire or ribbon twist
shotgun barrel but you still have to use common sense. I don't know anyone who blew up a old
rifle. I know several guys who blew up twist barrels. I hear the same old story they shot store
bought shells in it for years. That may be true but it finally lets loose and one could at any time.
I have also seen revolvers from BP days with cracked cylinders from smokeless loads.

I had a beautiful Austrian SxS 16g wire twist. I turned a couple dummy shells out of stainless and
bored them for 410. I have a buddy that has a German 10g single barrel. It's got steel barrels
but short chambers. I believe he was able to buy shells off a specialty outfit in Minn.

Well I noticed that track of the wolf has 10 gauge 2 7/8 shells for sale but way over, my price range! I guess il buy normal 3 inch high brass and unload, and cut them to length. The add bp!

[Kev18]

Also I was wondering, why do they say 2 7/8 shells. Wouldnt 2/34 work also? Unless they dont make any in 10 gauge. First 10 I ever owned...

[Marlin356]

Okay, my last comment on this.

Here are the facts. As I mentioned DGJ is the absolute bible on the subject.

"I know a lot of people online that shoot damascus-barreled shotguns. Some of them shoot thousands of rounds a year, year after year. Yet the conventional wisdom holds that this is inherently unsafe; damascus barrels blow up! Others will reluctantly concede that if you really must shoot these old guns you should only use Black Powder, because modern propellants are stronger than black powder. That much is true; they are more powerful… but all that really means is that you need to use less of them to produce the same pressure/velocity.

Of course not all black powder is created equal. Load 3-1/2 drams of FFFFg black powder under a 1-1/4 ounces of shot and you could be courting disaster. The same amount of FFg and shot and it will probably be as safe as anything would be. This is because the smaller grains of FFFFg have more surface area so they ignite more quickly, resulting in higher pressures that build faster.

But smokeless powder has a different pressure curve! Well, yeah… unless it doesn’t. The following test was performed with modern, state of the art equipment.

“The Double Gun Journal, Volume Seventeen, Issue 4, Winter 2006. “Wall Hanger Rendezvous & The Slow Powder Myth” pages 39-40 by Sherman Bell.

Sherman Bell pressure tested a 1 1/4 ounce load of 3 3/4 drams GOEX FFFg vs. Blue Dot both at 1240fps – results:

@ 1″ from breech – black = 5900psi Blue Dot = 6000psi
@ 6″ from breech – black = 4100psi Blue Dot = 4300psi
@ 12″ from breech – black = 2100psi Blue Dot = 2300psi ”

In the remainder of the article he discusses down-bore pressure curves in detail; it’s worth reading. Back issues can be obtained from http://Doublegun.com

Considering that proof loads run 16,000 to 18,000 psi a difference of two hundred this low in the range is trivial. Several other powders yield similar pressure curves, others- notably powders tailored for pistols- yield higher pressures, but then these are not powders people normally load into shotgun shells.

Manufacturers could and did ‘Nitro Proof’ damascus shotgun barrels. So where did the folklore of damascus barrels being unsafe come from? Well, like any steel these barrels have elastic limits, and if you overcome those the steel will split. Apparently back at the dawn of the twentieth century some reloaders loaded shells with the same volumes of powder they were used to using when they switched to smokeless powder. As noted nitro powders are more powerful, and loading this way could easily produce pressures that could cause a barrel to fail. This was common enough that catalogues and literature of the period specifically warned against this.

Of course any barrel can fail even with safe loads if the barrel is obstructed. A squib load can leave a barrel blocked and if not noted the next shot will almost certainly cause a catastrophic failure.

Another culprit can be extending the chamber to accommodate longer shells- this can place the forcing cone in a thinner, weaker portion of the barrel. Not a good thing. Similarly guns were sometimes over-honed to remove pitting or for some other dubious advantage. If the steel is too thin it’s going to split, no matter what kind it is.

But perhaps the biggest culprit in spreading this rumor were the manufacturers themselves. ‘Fluid steel’ (homogenous steel) barrels were a great deal less expensive to produce, and manufacturers were eager to claim they were an improvement- less because they were than because if they were ‘better’ they could charge the same price that they did for more expensive damascus barrels and thereby increase their profits. There are numerous ads from these manufacturers- who just a decade before had sworn by damascus barrels- that suddenly claimed that they were unsafe. Ah, marketing; thou art a fickle beast.

The last argument I have heard, usually from people that really should know better, is that smokeless powders are unsafe because they are a ‘High Explosive.’ A high explosive has a burn-rate that exceeds the speed of sound. Touch it off and it goes BOOM even if in an open, unconfined area. Smokeless powders have combustion inhibitors to prevent them from doing this. They are most definitely not high explosives.

This is not to say that all guns are safe with all loads, and any 100 year old gun should be carefully evaluated before firing it. It is also prudent to restrict these old guns to low-pressure loads, though less because of concerns about splitting the barrels than to avoid accelerating wear on a gun that has already had a full working life- or two, or three. Any antique firearm should be carefully inspected, ideally by a competent gunsmith, before use.

Honestly while I could tell you how to test an antique I dare not. In this litigious age if someone was injured through mis-applying those instructions I could easily be sued. I can tell you a few things to check to see if it is worth having it examined by a competent gunsmith. Examine the bores inside and out. If it is severely pitted, if there are any visible rings, bulges or dents you have a problem. If the barrels are loose on the frame when locked you have a problem. If you separate the barrels and ‘ring’ them you should not hear any vibration or buzzing; this would indicate that the rib was separating from the barrels. Not only is this commonly caused by bulging a barrel, it can allow moisture to enter and corrode the barrels unseen. Examine the rib and make sure there are no gaps in the solder for the same reason. If the gun appears sound by this inspection it could be worth actually paying someone to examine it further.

One thing to check is the chamber length- in some gauges standard shells were shorter than today’s ammunition, and using modern-length shells can cause an unsafe pressure condition in these old guns. A gunsmith can determine this for you. This doesn’t mean that you cannot use the gun; if there is enough metal ahead of the chamber a gunsmith can lengthen the chamber for you. Another option is to load your own ammunition to the proper length.

Damascus, Fluid Steel or whatever, respect the gun, it’s limitations, your own safety and that of those around you. If you have any doubts, well, it’s far less troublesome to consign a gun to ornamental status than it is to live without a hand or an eye.

Addendum: RST specializes in low-pressure shells, including 2, 2-1/2 and 2-3/4 inch shells specifically for use in old guns. http://www.rstshells.com/store/default.aspx "

[Kev18]

Turns out I wont be buying this thing anytime soon. The guy said he looked online... on gun broker and he saw one for 15,000$ so he's pretty aroused by high prices now. I told him id be interested in the 1000$ range. He wants to put it online for 4-5 thousand. keep in mind he paid it 50$. He has a"gunbroker" looking a the gun for him and his gunsmith is supposed to come in today.

[KCSO]

The real weakness in the 87 01 leverguns is not so much the twist barrels but the thin walled receiver and how the stress is applied to them. Invariably the cracks occur through the thin side walls right through the big W. I have a special fixture made up to held the cracked receivers from warping as we weld them up. I have had and shot a lot through these old guns and they are good shooters albeit somewhat dangerous as the hammer spur is guaranteed to slip from your thumb sooner or later. I only lever in a round when I am on target and then leave the empty in place till the next shot. The other reason the old guns blew up was Dupont semi smokeless powder, It deteriorated whit age and was not particularly stable, showing a lot of shot to shot variation. I worked with it some and in a modern gun velocities would vary as much as 3-400 fps with the same measured loads.

[MOA]

Kev18, sorry to hear about the gun shop owner going brain dead on you. I just looked at GB and they only list two winchesters in the configuration you are desiring. One is a 1887 in ten gauge, the other is the model 1901 in ten gauge. The 1887 is looking at around 1,100 and the 1901 around 1,000. The model 1901 is made for smokeless powder. Why not get the 1901 from Gun Broker and let this dude stew in his long time no sell gun he thinks is going to net him a bunch of money. After you get it take it down to his store like your looking for a gun case, of course he just doesn't have what your looking for so you will have to try cabelas or somewhere else and just watch him simmer. Be sure to tell him to have a great day when you leave.

My just arrived today about two hours ago.
223919

[Kev18]

Kev18, sorry to hear about the gun shop owner going brain dead on you. I just looked at GB and they only list two winchesters in the configuration you are desiring. One is a 1887 in ten gauge, the other is the model 1901 in ten gauge. The 1887 is looking at around 1,100 and the 1901 around 1,000. The model 1901 is made for smokeless powder. Why not get the 1901 from Gun Broker and let this dude stew in his long time no sell gun he thinks is going to net him a bunch of money. After you get it take it down to his store like your looking for a gun case, of course he just doesn't have what your looking for so you will have to try cabelas or somewhere else and just watch him simmer. Be sure to tell him to have a great day when you leave.

My just arrived today about two hours ago.
223919

Nice! They look great. And I like the way you think too. I definetly would go back if id buy some.

Also I cant buy from GB im Canadian and I think those are american... Its really hard to find sites in Canada that have vintage firearms. I know one or two but you'll pay double or triple for the gun because "its in canada""You know how much these sell for in the states!? like atleast totally 1500$ so 4000$ Canadian is a bargain!" The struggle of being a canadian firearm enthusiast. If you want a cheap price I need to go to gun stores and get lucky on a clerk that dosent know anything aboutt eh gun and rip them off. Sounds like im an **** but its how it is. Of course some are reasonably priced, but 90% of people have feelings for their guns even if its a store. Sorry I cant afford and/or want to buy your feelings.

[MOA]

Well Kev,
Here's my pair. I wouldn't mind running across a model 1901 in 10 gauge, but I think it will be awhile so I'll just be working on my loads for these two.

https://s19.postimg.cc/grlif0jxv/20180724_103731.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/s3y3wssmn/)