Wipe or Blow

[WALLNUTT]

I'm getting geared up to shoot a BPCR match and am quite new to black powder although I've loaded smokeless for over forty years. Should I blow or use a wiping rod? How do I use a wiping rod? How much should I compress my powder?

[garandsrus]

You have opened two different cans of worms. Sorry, can't give you a better answer.

When shooting at the bench, my choice is to wipe. I have never shot a BPCR match.

As far as compression, powder size and type will require different amounts. See what your rifle likes using the powder you have. Start with just about no compression and then go up from there. The only way to increase compression and keep the same bullet seating depth is to increase the powder charge. Use 1 or 2 grain increments.

[Deadeye Bly]

I've been shooting BPCR matches for 26 years. I generally use a blow tube but I have used wiping and should have used wiping a few times when I didn't. Heat, humidity and the number of shots fired for score make a big difference. With moderate temps here in the east with our humidity and a 10 shot match blow tubing generally works. If shooting in the hot sun in low humidity with a 15 shot for score match wiping would be the best choice.

There are many ways to do either. With blow tubing the number of breaths should vary with the conditions. If some shots go off call you probably need more breaths. Be sure to stay hydrated. In a silhouette match where time is limited most shooters only wipe once between shots with a wet patch or a bore pig. In a target match where you have more time most shooters wipe more than once. Paper patch shooters must make sure the bore is clean between each shot and are the most meticulous.

Your rifle will tell you how much compression is best and only by shooting it. Generally Swiss powder likes less compression, somewhere in the neighborhood of .050". Goex many times shoots best with heavy compression even up to about .300". Start with little compression and work up until your groups tighten. You may find fouling decreases with more compression as the powder burns hotter and more completely.

Best of luck to you. Where do you plan to shoot, Friendship or Ashland or elsewhere? Maybe I'll meet you along the way.

[25ring]

As far as wiping or blow tubing,it depends on the temperature of the barrel.If the barrel gets so hot that you can't keep the fouling soft by blow tubing you'll have to wipe.Relative humidity,air temps and whether or not the barrel is in full sun or shade all contribute to the problem.

[RPRNY]

First, good on you for getting in there and shooting a BPCR match!

As is usual in such things, there are zealous advocates for either approach, but 25ring boils it down to basic rather well. I wipe, but not to a shiny barrel. A little bit of moist sludge in the barrel is a good thing, in my opinion.

[country gent]

I blow tube and in dry weather have a bottle of water on the line with me. I take a swallow of water every 2-3 shots. This keeps me hydrated and my vison better along with keeping the moisture up in my breaths while blow tubing. A lot depends on loads, temps, humidity and rate of fire. Best is to experiment with both and see what works for you and your rifle best. SOmetimes there is a big difference.

[rfd]

i do both and my nose appreciates the extra effort. [smilie=1:8-) :-D

try both, see what floats yer boat best for the gun, and you, and the climate yer shooting in. i used to blow when i loaded greasers but these dayze wiping is not only better, it's pretty much mandatory for paper patched bullet cartridges.

for wiping, it's just about pushing a wet or damp patch down and out the muzzle, followed by a dry patch down and out the muzzle. i do believe that wiping is more consistent than blowing, that's my personal take. you really need to spend a bit of range time to suss this fouling control thing out and get into a shooting rhythm of sorts before going to a match. for your first match, it's not about winning or even competing, it'll be about knowing what you need to do so that yer not fumbling around at the shooting line, but rather spending time learning the ropes of the game.

as far as compression is concerned - again, you need to put in some time to see what cartridge load will work best for your gun. this is all part of the bpcr game. it is what it is, and that's a good thing indeed.

bottom line is, welcome to the bpcr game, and do have fun! 223509

[WALLNUTT]

I will be shooting at Friendship. You have all been helpful. I know things must be tried and I don't plan to shoot for a couple of months(too hot). I'm just looking for a place to start and will be shooting with an old pro but can't bug him all of the time so thought I would bug you guys some. Thanks for the help. I have a long row to hoe and a short time to do it.

[Lead pot]

I have a couple friends that have been twisting my arm that shoot at Friendship to join them. Now that my Daughter relocated around the Louisville area makes the friendship match a better probability :)
Wiping or blowing, both can be effective and also have a downside if not done properly. Range time will get this sorted out for you.
As far as compression, load two or three rounds starting with slight compression starting with about .050" and increase the amount by one grain for two or three rounds of the same weight. Five or six one grain increase of the two or three rounds will usually show you what will work well with a little more work. I call this working up a ladder load and usually 21 rounds fired you will see a load that has tightened up.
Swiss powder or the Olde Eynsford you will usually see between .120" to .250" compression that will be workable then work on the primers and wad stack that will tighten the group more.

All this is good range time to learn your rifle.

[rfd]

I will be shooting at Friendship. You have all been helpful. I know things must be tried and I don't plan to shoot for a couple of months(too hot). I'm just looking for a place to start and will be shooting with an old pro but can't bug him all of the time so thought I would bug you guys some. Thanks for the help. I have a long row to hoe and a short time to do it.

honestly, if you don't sort out yer load, gun, fouling and shooting processes before doing so at a match, yer not only wasting your time but the time of others. just get out and get some shooting done, even at a short range of 50 to 100 yards, so you can at least work on a fouling control process. you can arm chair all this stuff just so much to get yer thinking ducks in a row, but hoeing that row means getting to the range and doing rather than thinking.

you didn't mention the cartridge. i'll assume some .45 flavor for now. load up some standard LRP primed brass with black powder (1f, 1-1/2f, or 2f) and a single .025 to .060 card or veggie wad, and just light .030 to .060 compression and shoot them up. go to the hardware store and get a foot or so of 7/16" neoprene tubing and use it as a blow tube. take yer jagged cleaning rod with ya, a bottle of water, and a gaggle of patches to try wiping for fouling control, too. one range trip will teach you more than all the posts in this thread, for sure.

talk is cheap, doing is the proof of the pudding. i'm 72yo and will be shooting this afternoon in 90f+ bright sunshine because i need marks with a new sharps for a get-together shoot on friday. you do what you gotta do to make things work at least reasonably well. get out and shoot.

[Don McDowell]

I will be shooting at Friendship. You have all been helpful. I know things must be tried and I don't plan to shoot for a couple of months(too hot). I'm just looking for a place to start and will be shooting with an old pro but can't bug him all of the time so thought I would bug you guys some. Thanks for the help. I have a long row to hoe and a short time to do it.

Work up your best loads at home, and what you think is going to be your favored fouling control method. Then head to a match, you'll learn more shooting in a match about how your stuff is working, than you can figure out at home in a year.

[rfd]

... you'll learn more shooting in a match about how your stuff is working, than you can figure out at home in a year.

no truer words typed, as long as the shooter does his before-match homework.

[country gent]

Another thing I recommend highly is attend a match or 2 as a spectator, not a competitor. This gets you used to range commands and whats expected. Also gives you a good idea of what goes on and hw its accomplished. Last is it puts you a little more at ease with the first match and being there

[WALLNUTT]

I didn't think everything would get worked out on this forum. I have planned to do all the range time I can before I waste anyone's time at a match. might not get it all worked out this year. As I stated, I'm not new to shooting just the use of black powder so was looking for a few friendly pointers and have received some. A 40-65 is the cartridge I will be using. Thank you all.

[Don McDowell]

You won't be wasting anybodies time at a match, but you will be on a good track to learning. Shooting under match conditions is a whole different world than shooting at home.

[WALLNUTT]

I've shot other matches in the past so I agree it's a lot different than testing and such. I asked about wiping because I have seen old SS with wiping rods under the barrel but I assume may take too long under match conditions. I will be a spectator before shooting a match. I have a friend to help me who has been shooting BPCR for at least a couple of decades but it doesn't hurt to get other opinions. Thanks

[Don McDowell]

Wiping is just as fast as blow tubing, maybe faster if you have your stuff laid out in an orderly fashion, and leaves a much more uniform bore condition than blow tubing no matter what the ambient temperature and humidity. Blowtubing if done properly works very well it takes some effort.

[kokomokid]

I see many new shooters that think they have to get all ten shots for score and rush . Learn to do it correct if you only get 7 or 8 shots and speed will come later. go ahead and shoot a match and see what you need to do to get better organized.
I wipe with a delrin rod and a short pistol brush on it. A quick spin of the rod flips the damp patch off the brush.
Get your mat and cross sticks set so you are comfortable .

[rfd]

i prefer wiping as well. blow tubing hopefully keeps the bp residue soft, whilst wiping removes it for the very most part and therefore is more consistent so that the shooting environment hot/cold/dry/wet climate becomes almost a non-issue.

yes, you will be wasting time, creating concerns and losing out on the fun aspect for yerself and yer fellow competitors if yer fumbling on the shooting line with cartridge build issues, sight setting problems, fouling control gremlins, and all the fun stuff in between. i've seen that happen many times over, have seen competitors drop out of the match as a result, and it can all easily be avoided. bpcr/tr is not the same as a high power event. it's one thing to say yer gonna try wiping for fouling control and another to actually do it, have yer rod handy and keeping it clean, be able to grab those wet and dry patches at the line and in a wind, where and how to prop the gun and use the rod, etc. attending a match type you've never shot at before as a spectator is a good learning experience, too, but if you've put in yer range time, have a good shoot process down that's reasonably accurate, and you understand the rules and flow of the match, just shoot the match. it's all about knowledge and process. this should all be a very interesting, satisfying, and fun thing - do enjoy!

[John Boy]

Should I blow or use a wiping rod?
* Rule of Thumb: Relative Humidity less than 40% - high temperature - high (FFFg) grain & poor quality of powder - Wipe. Conversely, blow tube a minimum of 10 times
How do I use a wiping rod?
* From the breech to the muzzle
How much should I compress my powder?
* the Black Powder Cartridge News -2009 Fall - "Some Black Powder Compression Data" article by Bob Woodfill:
Caliber - 45-70
Lyman 457124
Constant volume of FFg powder used
Compression tested: 0" - 1/8" - 1/4" - 3/8" and 1/2"
Best 3 Shot Groups 100yds ... 5 shot groups were tested also, with the same compression values except for Goex (1/4") and Schuetzen (1/2")
Goex - 0.62" with 1/8" compression
Goex Express - 0.26" with 1/4" compression
Schuetzen - 0.61" with 1/4" compression
Swiss - 0.56" with 1/2" compression
KIK - 0.65" with 0" compression

[MT Chambers]

Wipe first then blow.

[indian joe]

Wiping is just as fast as blow tubing, maybe faster if you have your stuff laid out in an orderly fashion, and leaves a much more uniform bore condition than blow tubing no matter what the ambient temperature and humidity. Blowtubing if done properly works very well it takes some effort.

Don
I think I have missed something basic here
Had assumed blow tube was something to assist with grease boolits - most of which dont haul enough lube to do the job in longer barrels and the few that do - you fellers seem to not like because of stability issues at longer ranges. So we come back to grease boolits a bit scanty on lube and 0 1 2 3 breaths through the tube depending on conditions will keep that rifle shooting - ok that fits my picture - been there done it some - it works ok - gotta pay attention to how much .

Had also assumed that a switch to paper patch meant a mandatory switch to cleaning between shots ? did I get that wrong ? are some shooters getting away with a blow tube on PPB loads ? how does that work ? does the load include a grease cookie underneath ? I thought (assumed) the whole point of it was a dry clean bore and zero lead to barrel contact -- somebody mentioned ten puffs through the blow tube between shots ? two things would happen me 1) dribble would run out one or other end of the barrel 2) I couldnt hit the target till my pulse settled back down:grin:

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=kokomokid;4409446]I see many new shooters that think they have to get all ten shots for score and rush . Learn to do it correct if you only get 7 or 8 shots and speed will come later. go ahead and shoot a match and see what you need to do to get better organized.


Man that is a hard lesson to take on board ! only the most seasoned shooters can restrain themselves like that in time limit events (they are usually the winners) - its a simple equation 10x2=20 2x10=20 ----so hard to do it !!

[ian45662]

blow tubing can work if the conditions are favorable for it but wiping will work great in any condition. You will also find that once you get a system down wiping is actually faster. In a 7:30 second relay I can get off 10 shots with time to spare and thats with paper patch! If we are shooting 10 at a time then 15 shots is a walk in the park. When ya try wiping try to fight the urge to cram a patch down the bore asap. This is especially hard to do when under the clock. Take your time when pushing your patch down the bore. Go from breach to muzzle in about 3 seconds. Be deliberate and through. Some shooters do very well blow tubing but once you start going to silhouette matches I think you will find that most of the time people who win are wiping. Also the very BEST way to figure out how a load will preform at a match is to just belly up and go. Your not going to set the world on fire. Odds are your not going to shoot as well as you think you should but in spite of that no one will make fun of you or talk about you and you will absolutely be wasting no ones time in the slightest. I have seen people work up their best load then finally head out to a match only to be more than frustrated. Load up the best ammo you can and get out to a match and start tweaking from there. It is a waste of time to do otherwise.

[kokomokid]

I shot a match last sunday and the two master shooters I was squaded with shot their 10 for score in just under 7 minutes while blow tubing. I only got 9 shots on turkeys wiping with 6min 40sec after sighters but the epoxy tip on my pistol brush came off and patches were sticking to my brush. End of the match was 112*F and both blow tube shooters got thru without fouling out.

[ian45662]

Any idea what the humidity may have been?


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[kokomokid]

At that temp humidity was low but shooting under a covered shade helped. I was shooting a mini groove bullet and 3F powder so no choice but to wipe.

[jednorris]

Do not believe the stories that Black powder is too messy and waste your time with smokeless. Black Powder cleans easily out of a conditioned bore. These calibers were meant for B.P. and shoot best with it. I wipe my bore after every shot with "Moose Milk", a mix of 20% Ballistol and water. Make sure you center your cleaning patch, otherwise you will scrub one side of the inside barrel more than the other.

[WALLNUTT]

I've been gettin' stuff together and am almost there. I've switched from Goex Express to Old Eynsford with an improvement in accuracy. To make further improvement, do I make changes both up and down in charge and compression or is one direction better to try first? I might be able to add one more grain of powder before running over. Everyone's advice has been very helpful. thanks

[country gent]

I normally start at no compression no air space on the powder and then add the wad. work up from there in 2 grn increments adding powder and increasing compression. When 2 steps give the best accuracy I then test at the mid point. IE 63 and 65 grns both show best groups in the work up I then test at 65 grns.

Chronographing test groups can show likely points of best accuracy and optimum compression with the Standard Deviation and Extreme Spreads numbers. I have seen es slow drop as compression increases to a point then start increasing again past this point.

By starting at no compression no air space you have one direction to work adding powder and compression as you go to the sweet spot.

[WALLNUTT]

Thanks Gent, makes sense.

[Chill Wills]

I'm getting geared up to shoot a BPCR match and am quite new to black powder although I've loaded smokeless for over forty years. Should I blow or use a wiping rod? How do I use a wiping rod? How much should I compress my powder?

This week I am at the NRA BPCR silhouette National Championships in Raton,NM - Whittington Center. Today is the first day of the BPCR (iron) Championships. As it happens, most of the highest scores were shot today by people that blow tube. Tomorrow, it could be the other way around.

Jumping to the conclusion that either the blow tub or the wiping rod is the better road to accuracy is a rookie mistake. The devil is in the details and clearly each has a time and place. Each has an advantage and disadvantage. I chose to blow tube today as I have all week. It wasn't a mistake.

It wouldn't hurt to learn how to use both.

[Don McDowell]

Who won today?

[Chill Wills]

Who won today?

Gullo with a 47
Lee Wolff, Brad Rice and I all shot 46

[Don McDowell]

Thanks. Really wish I could of made it.

[Chill Wills]

Here are a few data points to chew on - FWIW.

The NRA Championship BPCR match is over. The two day iron sight silhouette match was shot in warm, dry, summer Raton, New Mexico.
I can't tell you what each of the top ten finishers did, wipe or blow tube, but of the top three, match winner Brad Rice used a blow tube and second place Dave Gullo used a blow tube and third place Rick Moritz wiped. First master, Cody Smith also wiped.

It was likely close to split in the top 10 finishers, either wiping or blowtube. Two of the top ten used Eagle Lube, two used Rice lube, and the rest, I don't know. I can tell you that if you wipe, lube choice may not be as important, but a good lube and a blowtube go well together when shooting in hot summer weather.

This next bit is mostly anecdotal. Those wiping were cleaning between stages of animals. Leading was the concern. Many of those blowing did not clean all day, about 80 shots ( 60 record plus sighters).

No one in the top 10 shot paper patch, which of course prevents leading too when all goes as designed. There are very few at the National Match shooting PP bullets in the silhouette game. I am sure if the PP bullet shooters were the major, and GG bullet were but a few percent, it would be almost all PP shooters in the top ten. Until then, grease groove bullet rule the BPCR game.

[Don McDowell]

A good blow tube routine combined with a high quality lube works very well. Problem is most folks don't get into that good routine until they've had a bunch of trigger time.
Wiping the lube isn't as important , but proper solution on the patches and wiping routine then becomes the big bugaboo.

I would bet a Grape Nehi that less than 1 percent of the entrants at the silhouette nationals used paper patch rounds.
But then you turn around and look at some of the target rifle matches and some of those, Lodi Ws for example and the number of paper patchers goes up, and the number of folks shooting patched in the top 10 goes up accordingly.
It all comes down to how much time and effort a shooter puts into fouling control, load development, and actual time shooting the type of matches their greatest interest follows. AND never leave out the spotter factor, a good spotter can keep a good shooter in the running, a great spotter can move a good shooter up in the standings, and a bad spotter or a spotter having a bad day can put even the best of shooters in the bottom half of the final scores.. Then couple in the luck of the draw as to weather conditions during any given relay, but that's all stuff for consdiration in another discussion.

[sharpsguy]

10-4 on the spotter.

[kokomokid]

Thanks for the great report. How many of those blow tubers will wipe at the Creedmoor match?

[ian45662]

Chill Wills Thanks for the info.... Really flies in the face of what I will usually tell people. I still think wiping may be faster but as you can see I have been wrong before!! :P Any idea how things shook out in the scope match as far as wiping vs blowtubing? Does anyone know if a Paper Patch shooter has ever came in the top 10 at least?

[Chill Wills]

Thanks for the great report. How many of those blow tubers will wipe at the Creedmoor match?

Good question. Most of us have moved to wiping when shooting with our barrels under the hot summer sun like you do in BPTR. However this year the NRA BP Target Rifle Nationals will be held in October at the Whittington Center (Raton, NM) I will be there. My guess is that old habits change hard, and many will wipe. Although, I will bet you a Dunk'n doughnut Dave Gullo will be using the blow tube and so will I AS the cool air and overcast sky's allow.

Don, I agree with all of what you wrote.

Cody, Jack and I won the Iron Sight over-all high 3 rifle team score. It has been a few years since I won it and that was back when Brian Chilson, Mike Patterson and I shot as a team.225055
Sorry, just a little braggin'.

[Don McDowell]

Its ain't bragging if it's the truth :drinks:
Altho I was disappointed to see that three some didn't have to have a shoot off to determine 1,2 and 3 overall...:wink:

[BrentD]

Does anyone know if a Paper Patch shooter has ever came in the top 10 at least?

This is the first time in quite a few years where at least one PPB shooter has not been in the top 10 in either BPCR scope or irons or both. Keep in mind, there are VERY few paper patchers. Sometimes only one or two.

Another thing to keep in mind when looking at this year's matches in isolation is that it was pretty humid and cool by Raton Nationals standards.

[Lead pot]

There has been several shooters finishing in the top 10 or better shooting paper patch at the Quigley with over 600 competitors.

[maxiblu]

I have been shooting at Friendship for the last two years and have tried both wiping and blowtube. Best advise I got this year is blowtubing is cheaper then buying patches and leaves ya more time to BS between relays.