Paper patching and Forensic Ballistics

[Keith]

As most of us know firing a bullet through a barrel leaves a unique "fingerprint" from microscopic striations in the bore transferring to the bullet.
This enables experts to use a comparison microscope to match a sample bullet to an unknown bullet to determine if they were fired by the same gun.
By paper patching this paper jacket would seem to isolate the bullet from the bore and prevent the transfer of these striations.
Also as this paper jacket removes itself from the bullet upon exit from the muzzle (unlike a copper jacket) it also prevents comparison with any imprints.

I wonder if any homicides were committed with paper patched bullets?
Just a thought from a sleepless night.

[John McCorkle]

If a person was of interest there would be tons of other forensic evidence they could reference. If it were a cast paper patching bullet they could reference metals of what the bullet was made of and other cast bullets (or even uncast ingots) to see if the composition was the same. It would take a significant lab to run those tests and of course all this is hypothetical...but your alloys are just as much of a finger print as your rifling.

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[dbosman]

My murder mystery scenario uses .30 sabots to shoot a previously fired .22 j bullet. One that has the framee's fingerprint on it. Law would jump on the obvious finger print solution.
Or not.

[kens]

How can they prove the gun the bullet came from when all the major barrel makers use button rifling.
The same button makes untold numbers of barrels that would all share the same button.

Same can be said for hammer forged process. No ???

[Rcmaveric]

As the button is used it wears. Each barrel will have its own finger print. I think the alloy sitting under your bench would give you away. Dont forget the bolt face has its owne unique print on the brass they can match aswell. Saw that on Forensic Files. Honestly now adays, they will find you. All it takes is one hair.

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[Hardcast416taylor]

Sounds like there is an interest in the movie `Shooter` here.Robert

[Harter66]

Use a Savage . Choose a cartridge like the 6.8 SPCII . Form 10 cases from 22 NOS . Install a 223 bolt head . Cast 1# of one time alloy with isolated alternative source metal bullets . Use 1 sheet of random source paper . Dry wrap in tight nitrile gloves from the Drs office . Same for any contact with cases , primers or the bullet . Do the shoot . Swap the bolt head out dispose of it in a corrosive environment . Dump the brass separately far away from the bolt in a range box . Dispose of the left over bullets and paper before the shoot where berms are mined . Patch long over the nose . Don't use a ported or suppressed rifle . Shoot a box of jacketed . Don't talk about it to anyone ever . Don't be a serial . One and done . Oh yeah dump the mould and sizer if you used a sizer . Do it from way off or way close to mimic a long shot .

[Bazoo]

I would think that if one was to use a gun for murdering, then to remove the evidence it would be as easy as
fire lap the bore, And lightly use some 1500 grit sandpaper in the chamber and on the breech face.

Id also think that if they used some range brass... it'd have enough marks to cause forensic problems in itself. And if a person was into salvaging range lead, a lot of those FMJs could be reloaded with other rifling marks already imprinted, that'd boggle some minds.

[jcren]

How about black powder sabots to run a previously fired .40 out of a .45. Fake can or a taped on bottle to catch the sabot maybe?

[303Guy]

But does the bore leave a fingerprint on a patched boolit? Mine do. The patch wears through in places. So the investigators would need to do is fire an identical patched boolit in my gun at the same velocity and they would have me. All of which would be moot since they would have to first catch me to even start testing my gun.

Then again, I do have a particular patched boolit that when fired in a particular gun, stays on right to the target so that boolit will have no core to bore contact at all. All I'd have to do then is make sure there is no evidence of me doing paper patching. That could be a challenge.

I once paper patched a jacketed bullet and fired it and the rifling land impressions were there but then the bullet was larger than bore diameter. The patch disappears from between the lands and the jacket.

https://s19.postimg.cc/9csenovr7/20180316_163200.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://s19.postimg.cc/h3bg7m9yb/PRESSURE_VS_ALLOY_HARDNESS.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The top photo shows boolit core to bore contact and the bottom photo shows only impressions. Those two bottom boolits were of different hardness but same load, hence the fill out of the waist in the lower one. Higher velocity breaks through the patch.

The patched jacketed bullet.
https://s19.postimg.cc/medwr6o43/20180409_174459_(3).jpg (https://postimages.org/)

It would be hard to match this boolit to any bore. It was patched.

https://s19.postimg.cc/e6rezy6tf/MVC-618_F.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[AllanD]

If I recall correctly from past performance law enforcement is between 5 & 7 more likely to get a conviction based upon examples of Virgin brass cartridge cases than from bullets, bullets tend to run into things damaging any information the rifling may contain about the firearm that launched it.

The FBI lab in a statement long ago said ballistics from soft alloy bullet engraved markings lead to false leads as often as they reveal anything useful. Jacketed bullets are another story.


remember though overlaid tool-marks from bolt face impressions and magazine lip scrapes from previous markings can be separated by microscopic examination, but this may or may not result in findings to a scientific certainty.


As far as fingerprint information according to the RCMP convictions based on shoe or footprints are eight times more
common than those from fingerprints.

So If you murder someone BURN YOUR SHOES!

[mcdaniel.mac]

This is all premised on ballistic fingerprinting being reliable. Like regular fingerprinting, it's really only useful for exoneration (e.g. determining that two samples could not have the same origin) but not for confirming conclusive evidence of an exact match (e.g. two fired projectiles must have come from the same origin). Even DNA "matching" is largely about key genetic factors.

[barrabruce]

I wonder if any homicides were committed with paper patched bullets?
.
Probably some buffalo shooters or others accquanted with the art up until around 1910 or so.
After they stopped producing store bought projectiles.
Who knows.
People have been patching a long time.

Now patching a used jacketed bullet from a left hand twist barrel in a right hand twist barrel could be intriguing.

[one-eyed fat man]

Why would you want to keep a murder weapon? A souvenir?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHzh0PvMWTI

[Stephen Cohen]

My murder mystery scenario uses .30 sabots to shoot a previously fired .22 j bullet. One that has the framee's fingerprint on it. Law would jump on the obvious finger print solution.
Or not.

I like your evil sense of humour, well I assume your joking LOL. Regards Stephen

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Why would you want to keep a murder weapon? A souvenir?



I suppose because people know you've got it. An off-the-record gun which you might not even have the opportunity to test, puts you in a situation where informing is a legal and remunerative business.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Use a Savage . Choose a cartridge like the 6.8 SPCII . Form 10 cases from 22 NOS . Install a 223 bolt head . Cast 1# of one time alloy with isolated alternative source metal bullets . Use 1 sheet of random source paper . Dry wrap in tight nitrile gloves from the Drs office . Same for any contact with cases , primers or the bullet . Do the shoot . Swap the bolt head out dispose of it in a corrosive environment . Dump the brass separately far away from the bolt in a range box . Dispose of the left over bullets and paper before the shoot where berms are mined . Patch long over the nose . Don't use a ported or suppressed rifle . Shoot a box of jacketed . Don't talk about it to anyone ever . Don't be a serial . One and done . Oh yeah dump the mould and sizer if you used a sizer . Do it from way off or way close to mimic a long shot .

Oh, and do it to someone you don't have the sort of motive to murder, which sends the police to you first. There are a lot of sleepless nights in the complications you describe. Psychopaths don't show nerves like us boring old normals, and perhaps neither would a robber who has suddenly had a liquor-store proprietor go for his hardware. But a planned and motivated murder is different. The sort of police interrogator that gets you, would detect things in your manner and voice that would justify a massive reallocation of manpower.

I've got a couple of Martini-Henry bullets I picked up on a long-forgotten battlefield of 1929, in central Saudi Arabia - the one where they got on top of Islamic fundamentalism for a few decades. The twisted tail of paper is imprinted in the concave base, and I sometimes think an individual can leave his own distinctive style there, recognisable by the expert in the way other experts authenticate valuable paintings.

Robert Churchill of the gunmaking family, and a long-term consultant to Scotland Yard, said that nobody with the brains to get away with murder would ever do it with a gun.

[KVO]

If the ballistics lab finds some residual patch material and Googles "green bar printer paper" that'll narrow down the suspect list pretty quick ;-)

[Old Coot]

Forensics are only good for proving that someone could or could not have done something. Most people get caught because they could not keep their big mouths shut. For example: I could tell you several ways to smuggle drugs into LA Harbor. The chances of getting caught would be next to nill but, that isn't where you get caught from. You have to sell the the stuff. Whoever buys it has to sell it, and so on. Eventually someone down the chain gets into trouble and guess who they rat on to get their sentence reduced, and so on and so on.

You might also consider just how many law enforcement people (and ex law enforcement) enjoy this forum.

All that being said, and we have only been speaking hypothetically here; I am sure just about everyone has a list of folks they believe would make the world a better place by their absence. It is kinda fun to think about these things, but who would really want to do them.

By the way the .....22 sabot for 30cal cartridges was dropped because they were horribly inaccurate. Brodie

[DIRT Farmer]

I was involved in compiling evidence and investigating exactly one murder in 34 years, two rounds of 40 to the back of the head. The case was solved the old fashion way. The perp was drinking in a local bar and started bragging about it.

[Harter66]

If I were to do it I might spend the extra buck for money paper .
The ideal of course is for all of the evidence that has to or might be dropped or lost at the scene or anywhere near it or connected to you to be so impossibly generic that it could be as easily connected to any 5-6 or 50 others . If you're old or ill enough going in or when you confess your deeds even if you're convicted it might be a life quality enhancement .

As far as a list of better off in a world without them in it , it's a short list . Really there probably enough other people the appreciate those on my as much as I do to get a person off on a justifiable . An investigation would bring out all of the dirt I suspect , just to find a motive . By that time I think the average CSI , beat cop , and judge would wonder how they lived so long without going to jail . In my case mostly it wouldn't be jail time but probably restitution with a pain and suffering addendum and I never see a dime anyway .

Fear of incarceration is what separates us that visualize and and remove minutia details from the deed in our minds from those that will/have done the deeds . I know that those on my list will one day meet they're return on life investment and when they do I'll just smile knowingly and have a celebratory dinner for about a week .

[sutherpride59]

I could think of a hundred different ways to do it and 1,000 more ways that I would get caught lol. I have always found it funny why people that calculate murder with a gun just never buy the parts that would leave evidence at a gun show with cash, install, use and then destroy them with a torch, bleach bath or other means. GI 1911 barrels, slides and firing pins are a dime a dozen.

[303Guy]

I could never cold bloodedly kill a man as in premeditated murder so I have difficulty even contemplating how I might do it. Self defence - Now that's different kettle of fish. I was prepared to kill more than once when I thought my life was being threatened and indeed, I was once expecting to be attacked and killed once (but nothing happened). No thought of paper patching to prevent linking it to me. 8-) I would have been dead next to the dudes I had just killed! Or tried to (it was a mob). I was probably in less danger than what I had imagined.

[9.3X62AL]

Having been both a forensic firearms witness and a homicide investigator for a long time, most of what is posted above is pretty good info. In homicide cases--which are thoroughly and vigorously defended--a prosecutor better have a whole lot more than ballistic impressions tying the arrestee to the commission of the course of conduct. The poster who stated that physical evidence is more often used to exclude persons than to accuse persons is right on the money. This includes the polygraph--which saves untold thousands of taxpayer dollars every month by separating the wheat from the chaff fairly efficiently. No single factor "makes' or "breaks" a case. DNA evidence comes close to being a "Deus ex machina", but your core investigation still must place this powerful evidence in its proper context--the old balancing act of "Probative vs. Prejudicial". "Proof Beyond Reasonable Doubt" is a tall standard--you better have your act wired tight if you plan to charge someone. And DO NOT beiieve for a second that using a paper-patched bullet or a sabot round will insulate you from culpability. One person might be a really smart cookie, smarter than the officer assigned to a given case. Not too many crooks can out-think a bureau of detectives, 10-15 strong with between 200-300 years' collective experience. It is not a good bet.

[Blacksmith]

I wonder if any homicides were committed with paper patched bullets?
Just a thought from a sleepless night.

Quigley shot paper patched bullets.[smilie=1:

I always figured leaving fake forensic evidence could point the finger in so many directions your defense could get you off on reasonable doubt.

Use a revolver but scatter range pickup semi auto brass at the scene. Use ammo that couldn't be traced to you, say a partial box from a garage sale of a brand you never bought and deep six the left overs. Deliberately abrade the bore and breach face so any comparison would look obviously different.

A good defense lawyer will have his own experts who will have plenty of other evidence to draw different conclusions which will raise doubt in the jurors mind.

[Outpost75]

When Col. E.H. Harrison at the NRA was doing his paper patched bullet experiments, we took samples over to the FBI lab and fired a bunch under different conditions. Shreds of the paper can be distinctly identified, as can powder residues on the paper and xrf analysis of the bullet alloy. The bullet will not have specific tool marks to identify a specific firearm, but does yield general rifling characteristic to help identify caliber and type. There was a paper published in the AFTE Journal back in the 1970s if your lab keeps back issues.

[John McCorkle]

When Col. E.H. Harrison at the NRA was doing his paper patched bullet experiments, we took samples over to the FBI lab and fired a bunch under different conditions. Shreds of the paper can be distinctly identified, as can powder residues on the paper and xrf analysis of the bullet alloy. The bullet will not have specific tool marks to identify a specific firearm, but does yield general rifling characteristic to help identify caliber and type. There was a paper published in the AFTE Journal back in the 1970s if your lab keeps back issues.Ding ding ding... bingo

Be sure, your sins will find you out

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[jmorris]

A sabot would be better isolation from the lands and groves.

I remember reading a book as a kid where someone used an “ice” bullet that left nothing.

Lots of people have died from a round ball fired from a smooth bore.

A few of these would forever change the “finger print” of a bore from before/after firing them.
http://www.davidtubb.com/final-finish-bullet-kits

A Plasma cutter or oxy/act torch can turn a barrel into tiny particles of slag in no time.

[Geezer in NH]

If a person was of interest there would be tons of other forensic evidence they could reference. If it were a cast paper patching bullet they could reference metals of what the bullet was made of and other cast bullets (or even uncast ingots) to see if the composition was the same. It would take a significant lab to run those tests and of course all this is hypothetical...but your alloys are just as much of a finger print as your rifling.

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Lead comparisons of the alloy got the FBI into serious problems when the courts over turned them for cause of not a real science around 10 years ago. Many cases got reversed by it.

[Outpost75]

Lead comparisons of the alloy got the FBI into serious problems when the courts over turned them for cause of not a real science around 10 years ago. Many cases got reversed by it.

This wasn't because the science was "bad" but because the lead industry produced large 100-ton heat lots which were commonly sold to multiple users, such that a batch of lead in any particular lot of ammunition wasn't "unique to the exclusion of all others". XRF and NAA are simply tools in the tool box which must be evaluated in the context of surrounding other evidence, residues and toolmarks, for example.

[AllanD]

If a person was of interest there would be tons of other forensic evidence they could reference. If it were a cast paper patching bullet they could reference metals of what the bullet was made of and other cast bullets (or even uncast ingots) to see if the composition was the same. It would take a significant lab to run those tests and of course all this is hypothetical...but your alloys are just as much of a finger print as your rifling.

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The problem with this is Just the alloy's exact composition is not "to a scientific certainty" by simple "Assay" or XRF or other quick tests, for REAL scientific certainty, you need to precisely measure both trace elements as well as the isotopic components of them...
and that is EXPEN$IVE testing.

[UKShootist]

Too much fuss. Just use poison or a car to run your victim over.

[am44mag]

Well geeze, it seems we have quite a few criminal masterminds on this forum. :p

[Geezer in NH]

By the way the .....22 sabot for 30cal cartridges was dropped because they were horribly inaccurate. Brodie
Ah still being made AND sold.
http://www.eabco.com/remington-accelerator-sabots.html

[9.3X62AL]

I was involved in compiling evidence and investigating exactly one murder in 34 years, two rounds of 40 to the back of the head. The case was solved the old fashion way. The perp was drinking in a local bar and started bragging about it.

I was involved in a whole lot more homicide cases over a number of years. It always amazed me just how much perps wanted to "Sign their handiwork", and it amazed them just how often people would get up in court and swear under oath to having heard what the perp said, to include details only known to investigators or those present at the occurrence. The "Mr. Churchill" mentioned above made good points about how using a firearm is not wise practice if concealing your guilt was part of the motive.

Yes--forensics has the ability to tie crime objects to crime perpetrators. This ability (or lack thereof) varies from case to case. Frankly--if you hinge your case on some forensics findings other than DNA matches, your case is at best incomplete. The forensics must be weaved into the subtleties and nuances of each course of conduct of any involved parties, or juries 'hang up' a la O.J. Simpson. It isn't what you believe--it isn't what you 'know'--it IS about what you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt. And DNA is well-nigh unassailable if chain of custody is kept strictly controlled and handling standards are adhered to.

[17nut]

gallium or chilled mercury!

[Huvius]

I suppose that anybody who has read or watched murder mysteries has pondered the hows, wheres and whens of ending another's life.
Human nature to some extent.
But, humans being so similar to each other, my bet is that you are rarely the ONLY person contemplating the demise of a particular individual.
As I grow older, my theoretical 'short list' just seems to somehow of take care of itself and age instructs you to be more wary about your associations moving forward.

[John Van Gelder]

There is quite a bit more forensic evidence to be gleaned from cartridge cases than bullets, once a bullet passes through something it confuses any barrel marks, there is still a lot that can be learned from the bullet. Using a paper patch cast bullet, immediately narrows the suspect range down to a handloader.

[OverMax]

Those who tried bushwhacking some other with a paper patched bullet likely grew old in the hoosegow. a_Yup

[Traffer]

I would imagine that a very VERY small percentage of shootings are solved by matching bullets to a gun. Prolly a much higher percentage are solved from the casings.

[JBinMN]

I am chuckling over the "criminal masterminds on this forum" comment.
;)

Interesting & entertaining topic for sure.

Thanks for the fun!
:)

[Rcmaveric]

I have watched enough of those to know i wouldnt get away with it. The one with the shot gun almost got away with, but again it was the case that got him busted. They matched the breach face. I have seen alot of things tried. One guy even replaced his barrel untill they found his new barrel receipt and they built the case off that.

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[John Van Gelder]

Definitely cases, not too long ago you used to get a fired casing with a new firearm, another casing went into a national database. So at the end of the day pick up your brass, it will be good for another "project"..!

[LynC2]

I am chuckling over the "criminal masterminds on this forum" comment.
;)

Interesting & entertaining topic for sure.

Thanks for the fun!
:)

True. :lol: I guess I must be easy going as I can't think of a single person I would put on a list that I would even dream of killing. However if a number of politicians were to choke while having supper I would think the world would be a better place for it. [smilie=1:

[StrawHat]

I’ve got a little list!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1NLV24qTnlg

Kevin

[John Van Gelder]

I worked on a multiple homicide case, two victims both shot with a .45ACP, five shots were fired all of the bullets were recovered, and three of the cases. The shooting was inside of a house, so it seems that the shooter found two cases. The most compelling evidence was the retrieved cases, that matched with other fired cases found at the suspects residence.

A strong case for the revolver..

[Optimist]

I worked on a multiple homicide case, two victims both shot with a .45ACP, five shots were fired all of the bullets were recovered, and three of the cases. The shooting was inside of a house, so it seems that the shooter found two cases. The most compelling evidence was the retrieved cases, that matched with other fired cases found at the suspects residence.

A strong case for the revolver..

Now if that ain't a double barreled shot pun....

It's only evidence if they can find and test it.

However, places like this are usually filled by the law abiding, and we generally will aid our local law enforcement if they run across something that is making 'em scratch their heads.

[pashiner]

my vote (in this hypothetical business) goes to a hardcast .690 ball loaded inside a 12 gauge shotcup. Booger the ball up real good by rolling it around on a sidewalk before you load it, and burn the plastic shell after the shooting, or ditch it at your local skeet club.
That ball will fly right through the victim, and have next to no forensic evidence on it if it's ever found. There'll be a wad left behind though, unless you find and burn that too.
you better have a good alibi
nobody better see you anywhere near the scene.
you better not have a history with the victim.
you better never let anything slip.
Nobody should ever know you're a reloader.
bottom line is you gotta try really hard and/or be uncommonly lucky to get away with shooting somebody.
by writing this, I've already disqualified myself from being the hypothetical hitman.

[nicholst55]

Personally, I find it difficult to believe that using a cartridge case for 'ballistic fingerprinting' is particularly useful - by itself, anyway. The state of Maryland was one of the first to require a fired case be provided by the manufacturer with a new handgun so that they could establish a database. Decades later, the Maryland State Police admitted that they had solved exactly ZERO homicides with this database. Yet they continued to require submission of a fired case with the sale of new handguns.

There would have to be additional evidence linking the shooter to the victim. And as stated, all it takes is one hair or fiber linking the two people to reveal the murderer's guilt. I suppose that committing the 'perfect murder' is technically possible - just highly unlikely.

[popper]

If your assassin's bullet is PP, make sure the paper used doesn't have your name or SSN on it.

[salty dog]

I just stumbled on this thread and had to chuckle at the idea that we could outsmart the ballistic trail. I know the folks here are probably among those least likely to ever kill someone, but we're still missing the forest for the trees. Of all the people the victim knew, YOU are likely to be the only reloader, and likely the only one remotely knowledgeable enough to even understand some of the details of the ballistic evidence. Before they try to narrow down what killed the guy, they will try to narrow down who killed the guy, and all those fancy ballistic work arounds point right to you. I have the same imaginary ideas, but I know I wouldn't get away with it.

[Stephen Cohen]

If your assassin's bullet is PP, make sure the paper used doesn't have your name or SSN on it.

Criminals by nature are fools, Your post reminds me of the fool who handed a hold up note to bank teller, which was written on the back of self addressed envelope. Why would one would use a gun to murder when a burnable 2x4 would work. Regards Stephen

[Black Beard]

If the paper patches are made with cheap paper and shot on a wet day they might disintegrate. Or they might just be wet evidence.

All your reloading tools probably mark the cases in unique ways.

[Outpost75]

When Col. E.H. Harrison was doing his experimentation with full-charge paper patched bullets in the .308 Winchester, the Technical Staff also worked with the FBI Laboratory in providing test samples of ammunition and having evidence techs gather debris from the floor of the test range.

Shards of shredded paper patch material yielded identifiable rifling characteristics, as well as specifics to the type of paper used. While bullets did not bear identifiable tool marks from the rifling, they did upset sufficiently upon firing to identify general rifling characteristics as to the number and width of grooves and pitch of rifling, sufficient to identify the make, model and caliber of rifle.

These tests were replicated several times, by having multiple samples submitted to the FBI Washington Field Office, the FBI Academy at Quantico, VA and also to the ATF Firearms Technology Branch.

Nuclear analysis of the bullet alloy can identify projectiles having originated from the same source of lead, and electron microprobe analysis of powder residues on the paper shards can identify the specific propellants. This all occurred in the late 1980s. The technology available to law enforcement and military is very much better now and I have not kept up with new developments in common use after about 2000. Evidence-quality assessment can be performed now with much smaller samples than were required to stand scrutiny in court 20 years ago. The database of identified known samples is also profoundly expanded since 9/11.

I would view use of paper patched bullets to hinder forensic analysis as a wonderful "Dumb Crook of the Month" technique which should be widely encouraged in movies and comic books where the gang bangers learn their tradecraft.

[Huvius]

...This all occurred in the late 1980s.

You mean back when law enforcement actually tried to solve crimes?

A friend's truck was stolen last month and found about 25mi away from his home.
It was eventually found abandoned at a hospital and returned.
In the cab was a baggie of drugs and the prison release papers of the car thief!
There were numerous phone numbers in marker on the headliner.
The police didn't even search the truck!

[DonHowe]

Matching alloy to your stash would be icing on the cake but would not prove you or your gun fired the bullet.

[RU shooter]

Well judging by this thread if most of us on the forum were taken if for questioning and the detective started talkin about a cast bullets we would all be like , So what alloy is that ? Air cooled or water quench ? Bet I can tell the lube if you let me sniff it ! Lol and I can tell that was cast with a Lee mould but there's some wrinkles so the mould or alloy probably was too cold . Yep that gas check was made from a beer can . Ok just cuff me and read me my rights

[Lonegun1894]

Interesting thought experiment, and while this is fun in terms of if one of us was writing a mystery novel, in practice, it's a crapshoot. For example, I have friends in different agencies, and depending on which agency we are talking about, you wouldn't believe the difference in resources available. I have seen cases solved that I wouldn't have believed solvable if I hadn't read the reports on all the testing and everything myself, and then on the other end of the spectrum, is the report of a suicide where the guy shot himself twice in the back of the head with a shotgun, left much of the contents of his skull in his living room, and then got up, walked to his bedroom, tucked himself into bed, and then died. No, I didn't work that suicide case, and neither did my agency, but the DA signed off on the report. You would have a hard time making up some of the crap some of us have seen solved, or not solved. Either way, I wouldn't try it, because I have learned that most people who would tempt you to kill them are the same people that will amaze you with the kind of misery they will bring on themselves, so why would I risk prison when all I have to do is sit back and wait, and they will do MUCH worse to themselves than I possibly could have. I'm talking about the kind of misery where killing them would have been doing them a favor, and instead, I have my freedom, and they have the kind of self-inflicted misery that I probably wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Sun Tzu said that if you wait by the river long enough, you will see the bodies of your enemies floating past you. Just be patient instead of being stupid.

[Don Purcell]

[QUOTE=DIRT Farmer;4409300]I was involved in compiling evidence and investigating exactly one murder in 34 years, two rounds of 40 to the back of the head. The case was solved the old fashion way. The perp was drinking in a local bar and started bragging about it.[/QUO
A woman I worked with told me about her aunt and uncle that were murdered by a burgler when they returned home from an evening out and surprised him. Many years later she said "Hey, they caught the guy that murdered my aunt and uncle. Do you know how they caught him?" I said "Yeah, bet he finally got to running his mouth and somebody ratted him out". She got a surprised look on her face and said "How did you know?" Told her "Debbie, that's how it usually happens. You keep your mouth shut and you will very likely never be caught". The forensic shows are interesting to watch but only show the successful ones. Have had federal agent's tell me the same thing.

[Three44s]

I suspect that firing pin marks and then bolt face stirations are number one and two where it comes to casing forensics.

Three44s

[robg]

if i knew the answer im not telling might need it sometime.

[9.3X62AL]

I could write for hours about the things that get crooks caught, whether it is a homicide or a catalytic converter theft.

A lot of it boils down to planning, or more correctly a failure to do so or to plan completely. This becomes obvious fairly early in an investigation. A lot of crimes aren't planned at all, or only up to a point where the intended act is completed. After that, they are winging it--and it REALLY shows.

I've been retired for 16 years now. There isn't much that I miss about cop work, especially now that media propagandists are doing their best to cast us in the most negative possible light to boost ad rates. One thing I do miss--hunting armed predators. That was the best.

[John Van Gelder]

9.3X62AL

I worked case one time, the perpetrator had stolen a transmission out of a parked car, as he was crawling out his wallet and ID came out of his pocket.

There is a lot more forensic evidence in cartridge cases than bullets, making a revolver a better murder weapon.

[Outpost75]

I suspect that firing pin marks and then bolt face stirations are number one and two where it comes to casing forensics.

Three44s

Extraction and ejection marks also rank right up there.

[Tar Heel]

And jails are chock full of *Brilliant* criminals. Two words: Digital Fingerprint.

[John Van Gelder]

In a double homicide case the victims were shot with a .45ACP, the ammunition was some cheap commercial lead bullet rounds. Five rounds were fired the bullets were pretty well deformed. Three cases were found at the scene, a weapon was never found so the bullets were of no evidentiary value, however the crime scene cases were compared with other empty cases at the suspects residence and were confirmed to have been fired in the same gun.

[9.3X62AL]

The greatest disservice done by these CSI-centered TV shows is to create the impression in the minds of viewers that forensic examinations are some kind of Deus ex machina--that these Miracles Of Modern Science can conclusively point the finger of guilt at a given perpetrator, and can stand alone and unsupported by surrounding circumstances to direct justice. That just isn't reality.

Firearms forensics is NOT new science. Parts of it have been amended by scientific advances, but a lot of the foundation elements are close to 100 years old.

GOOD convictions are a holistic amalgam--science, witness statements, suspect admissions, physical evidence processed with that science, and dogged confirmation of every possible detail of all the elements listed above.

[dirtball]

Most homicides would go unsolved if the perp simply disposed of the weapon (in a thoughtful manor) and kept their mouth shut!

[wbbh]

This thread is very interesting. I have read about many crimes and most often, as has been said several times, the criminal cannot keep his mouth shut, especially to their ex-partners.

So far I've learned the weapon should be a revolver, the bullets salvaged and riding in a sabot, the powder and cases should be from various sources and the weapon should be disposed of, i.e., melted into slag and buried. Then have your, ears and eyes poked out, your tongue removed as well as your hands so you cannot listen, talk, write or sign language.

[Lonegun1894]

This thread is very interesting. I have read about many crimes and most often, as has been said several times, the criminal cannot keep his mouth shut, especially to their ex-partners.

So far I've learned the weapon should be a revolver, the bullets salvaged and riding in a sabot, the powder and cases should be from various sources and the weapon should be disposed of, i.e., melted into slag and buried. Then have your, ears and eyes poked out, your tongue removed as well as your hands so you cannot listen, talk, write or sign language.

That sounds like it about covers it.

[John Van Gelder]

Perhaps even better is not to do anything that might raise concerns about forensic evidence.

[Lonegun1894]

That’s the absolute best and easiest solution, and while I think the people we have here will agree and are more interested in the science than actually having any intention of doing anything, it’s still an interesting discussion. And let’s not forget that criminals aren’t exactly known for being geniuses.

[John Van Gelder]

The genius thing is not always correct, I worked a homicide one time, the defendant in the case had a 150+ IQ.

[Lonegun1894]

John,
That’s surprising to me, but then again, I’m kinda spoiled because most of the criminals I deal with are average at best, and some I don’t think know how to spell “average”, so I’ll count my blessings and leave the smart ones to you. Thank you for picking up my slack.

[John Van Gelder]

In my 35 years in the business that was the most "intelligent" criminal, I dealt with, he had some mental issues. It isn't always the case that intelligence and smart share the same "room"..

I was in the the Canadian Legion in Prince Rupert, I was there to testify on a homicide case I managed to get involved in on the wrong side of the Alaska/Canada border., I was chatting with the resident RCMP superintendent, we were talking about "intelligent v smart" constables. The RCMP at one time had a requirement that their constables had to have a degree prior to being hired. The term the superintendent used was that these were the best educated intelligent dumb b------s he had ever dealt with.

A bit far afield from paper patched bullets.

[Lonegun1894]

I’ve only got 12 years in, and the only paper patched bullets I’ve dealt with were ones I fired into a bullet trap and gelatin to give the forensics guys something different to play with.

[wbbh]

The genius thing is not always correct, I worked a homicide one time, the defendant in the case had a 150+ IQ.

No matter how intelligent one person is, or worse, how intelligent they believe themselves to be, they still don't know everything. And if they are angery, even the smartest will make mistakes. I've read several stories about MDs that committed murder, it takes a pretty sharp mind to be a doctor, but they still made stupid mistakes that got them caught.

[John Van Gelder]

Back to paper.. When you shoot .38 spls. in your .357 you always get a ring in the cylinder, not so much with gas checks and none with paper patched bullets.

I have recovered some paper patched bullets, shot into deep snow, they had no identifiable marks on them.

[Three44s]

Have two targets, manage to get them hating one another enough to do one another in.

Three44s

[warren5421]

Shoot a lot of black powder in a .45-70 Sharps or .38-55 Winchester High Wall but have never paper patched, also shoot a lot of cap & ball using paper cartages i.e. Sharps, Naviy 51's & Army 60's. With the C&B very seldom is there any paper to be found so my questions are how much paper is found with the use of a paper patch bullet if fired outside? Will the patch stay intact size wise or is it reduced to very small pieces that the wind can blow away? How many people working in forensics would even notice a paper patch paper when working an outdoor area where the shooter was?

[Lonegun1894]

Shoot a lot of black powder in a .45-70 Sharps or .38-55 Winchester High Wall but have never paper patched, also shoot a lot of cap & ball using paper cartages i.e. Sharps, Naviy 51's & Army 60's. With the C&B very seldom is there any paper to be found so my questions are how much paper is found with the use of a paper patch bullet if fired outside? Will the patch stay intact size wise or is it reduced to very small pieces that the wind can blow away? How many people working in forensics would even notice a paper patch paper when working an outdoor area where the shooter was?

This isn’t a direct answer to your question because I honestly haven’t looked, but it may be relevant, I hope. I have two things that may help. Shooting paper patched .30-06, .44, and .45-70, I have never recovered a bullet that still had the patch attached. So I don’t think it stays on, but that may just be my loads. My second thing, which is probably even less helpful, is shooting cloth patched round balls out of muzzleloaders, in which the patch is usually about 10-20 feet in front of the muzzle, depending on wind conditions and who knows what else, but either way, they don’t go far. So I think it would depend on what distance our hypothetical character in the OPs novel fired his weapon from. I mean, if the muzzle is pressed against the victim, I’m sure the patch will be there, but I don’t know in what condition it will be. My ML cloth patches are all kinds of frayed at the edges, but that doesn’t translate to paper patches, I don’t think. But if the shot was taken from a distance, I would think the investigators would have to locate the spot the shot was taken from and do it quickly enough before wind, rain, etc blows away the patch or patch fragments, dissolves them in a puddle, etc.

[303Guy]

Maybe I can help.

https://i.postimg.cc/nr2qRPgp/DSCF8914.jpg (https://postimg.cc/N2yyLpQz)

https://i.postimg.cc/VLp4MyCb/Untitled.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/sD8f9bMd/001.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/HsNfjyxd/MVC-795F.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/RV8pRxwB/Patch-Base-on-Fired-Boolit.jpg (https://postimages.org/) https://i.postimg.cc/NG4svJRC/DSCF8751.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/dVq1N82R/1917_SMLE_217gr_5gr_AS30N.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The answer would be - it depends. To avoid the tail nub being recoverable, one can use a tailless patch. It's not difficult do develop a patch that will break up into small fragments but really, the patch is going to do whatever it does when the load is developed for accuracy.

[BJK]

So much of this thread I didn't read, sorry. Interesting thread just to exercise the grey matter.

Sorta on subject, there was lead bulleted ammo sold by some big company that had a heavy plastic jacket. This was quite some time ago, maybe 30 years or more. It was removed from the market because the jacket was so thick the forensics were completely useless. Hmmm, a coated bullet with many coats of coating might simulate that bullet. I think if one was to do it, 2 coats as is normal, then sized. Then (experimentation would need to happen) additional coats, maybe sized after each one until a sufficient thickness is achieved.

It's all coming back... It was S&W Nyclad. Today it either is made or was discontinued by Federal.

I like the .30 sabot idea. It would be like the S&W Nyclad but with far more velocity. When I was playing with sabots I got 3400fps with a 55gr bullet in a 15" .308 handgun but accuracy was only 3" @ 100 yards and the manufacturer told me that was about all I could expect. I dropped the project. It was a completely odd ball loading, using a very fast powder for the cartridge. Muzzle flash and blast was spectacular.

[MUSTANG]

Concerning the Nyclad - somewhere in the Steel Shipping container in the back 40 is a 2/3 full box of 38 Special Nyclads I picked up maybe 40 or more years ago when I went dumpster diving at some forgotten range. The previous post brought this back from the back files of my memory. Never shot them as at the time I thought "Gee, must not work very well if someone threw them out at the range." I thought at the time I would pull the cycled bullets and must some cast boolits in the brass.

Found this link that indicated that in 2009 Federal was going to "Reintroduce" the Nyclad bullet. https://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2008/10/29/federal-nyclad-ammunition-in-38-special-to-be-reintroduced-at-2009-shot-show/

Not sure how thick the nylon clawing is - doubt it is thick enough to result in the rifling not engraving on the lead projectile. Same applies to trying to build up enough thickness with Powder Coating to keep the lead from engraving; besides with powder coating the powder coat if done properly adheres to the lead all the way to the target - as I would assume the Nyclad would also do. This would result in the coatings carrying the engraving signature that the Thread is reputed to explore as potentially not occurring.

For me - I like to Paper Patch and will continue to do so. I would theorize that under microscope and other forensic tools; the rifle engraving from a properly patched boolit would be there under forensic evaluation. The barrel of a .308 Winchester for example is .308, and a properly fitted boolit for paper patching would be .309 or .310 - allowing the grooves to be slightly ironed into the boolit when fired. Just my thoughts/observations.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

A good night's sleep is more precious than gold.....

[Black Beard]

It isn't just the case itself. The firing pin can give distinctive marks. But that is easily replaced.

If you run a paper patched bullet through a sizer you will see distinctive patterns from the paper to. They might be identifiable.

If you soaked the paper in potassium nitrate it might form a slow match and incinerate itself after leaving the barrel. Don't test this inside or on a tinder dry range.

[FrankJD]

I have recovered black powder fired .443 and .444 slicks (.45-70 Sharps and Rollers) that were patched with 7# and 8# paper and nary a rifling or muzzle mark on any. The paper patching blew out the muzzle as small shards of confetti. Since a key for PPBs is the fit of the slick and paper for either black or white powders, a very tight fit to bore with black and an over groove fit for white could/should engrave the slick (or bullet), I'd think.

As far as PPB forensics are concerned, if the slick is unmarked, the paper and cartridge are retrieved, all that might be left could be the retrieved slick dimensions and its metallic composition. I think. See the film "Shooter" and the scene with Levon Helm, it's up on YouTube. :)

[GregLaROCHE]

I suppose because people know you've got it. An off-the-record gun which you might not even have the opportunity to test, puts you in a situation where informing is a legal and remunerative business.

With an off the record gun, you don’t know where it’s been or done before. You could have a murder weapon and not know it.

[popper]

Just take some NiQil nd get a good nite sleep.

[Lead pot]

I know that you guys try to get these PP shooting with smokeless. Just cram some Black in the case and go for it and you might see those groups tighten up.
I just shot these three targets at close range and off sand bags.

Sorry I just had to do this :D :D don't slap me too hard :D
Y'all stay well.........Kurt


301826

[barnetmill]

You guys missed on very intriguing still open case of the murder of a federal prosecutor on the west coast that was murdered by a pistol chambered for the 9.27 makarov cartridge.


https://seattlemag.com/news-and-features/who-killed-tom-wales
Holt didn’t yet know that her back-fence neighbor, Assistant U.S. Attorney Tom Wales, 49, lay dying on his basement floor with gunshot wounds to his neck and upper body. He probably didn’t see his attacker as he sat at his desk answering e-mail in the basement office of his restored 1905 Craftsman on the 100 block of Hayes Street.
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/wales-weapon-flyer.pdf/view
301893

The barrel was after market and so from the online vendor they got a list of people that had purchased that gun. The problem was .380 ACP ammo was fired through the gun. 380 fires a .355" bullet and the mak fires a bullet nominal in excess of .360"
Goggle says:
Bullet diameter 9.27 mm (0.365 in)
Land diameter 9.00 mm (0.354 in)
They had a suspect, but were apparently were not able to make a good ID on the match between barrel and recovered bullets. I am not sure what happened to the cartridge cases.

[barnetmill]

If the police have enough reason to go searching and looking in your direction, whether they can match a gun and bullet to you or not will only be part of what gets you convicted. The gun and any spare ammunition must be made inaccessible or completely useless for evidentiary use. A paper patch bullet will point investigators in the direction of someone with a lot of knowledge about ammunition. You must use something common like the very old revolver that killed vince foster that used common ammo and that cannot be readily traced.