What is the point of a Wadcutter?

[78CJ]

I know that they are for target shooting to cut a nice clean hole but they just seem odd to me.

I have a brand new Lyman single cavity .357 wadcutter mold that is pretty old and still in the box and I am trying to decide weather or not to use it. I plink just as much as the next guy but I also like to be able to kill varmints with my loaded ammo.

I assume just because of its shape it would probably knock the snot out of a porky?

Anyone load these for pest control?

Ryan

[Ricochet]

Yep, at close range they do lots of damage. At long ranges they may tumble.

[78CJ]

I would think out of a 2 1/4" SP101 I would not get much past 15 yards...maybe 25

[GabbyM]

They will fly straight to the 50 yard line on the bullseye course. It's out past that they start to go unstable. Depending on variables.
They do hit hard with that blunt nose and will perform well on critters.

[Echo]

Don't knock short barreled guns - good ones will keep them in your hat @ 50 yds. At the rational range of the shooter, and gun, and ammo, wadcutters will do the job. For that matter, I recommend them for self-defense loads for the ladies. Not much recoil, and make a nice round hole in the miscreant.

Although I have no experience with cast wadcutters, hollow-based wadcutters go crazy after 50 yds. Can't keep 'em on the paper @ 100 yds, and have a hard time keeping them on the range @ 200! But within 50 yds, super accurate. I assume the cast might be better beyond 50, and will check it out. I have a mold for the 358495 Lyman that I haven't used yet. Will do so and report...

[GrizzLeeBear]

I assume just because of its shape it would probably knock the snot out of a porky?

Anyone load these for pest control?

Ryan

Cast boolits for hunting usually depend on a flat wide meplat to do their damage. You can't get anymore meplat than on a WC! Since cast WC don't have a hollow base they can be seated longer and loaded to full potential, or at least to a good bit more velocity than you would use for target shooting. This makes them particularly effective for short range pest control, say 50 yards or less. Many of the well known handgun writes favored the WC for such tasks.
A WC going 1,000+ fps ought to knock a porky, coon or grinner right out of a tree top.:Fire:

[Dave Berryhill]

I know that they are for target shooting to cut a nice clean hole but they just seem odd to me....

Making nice clean holes really helps when your bullet hits at the edge of a scoring ring. In most organized target shooting, if the bullet touches the edge of a higher scoring ring then you receive the higher point value of that ring. If the edges of the hole are jagged, such as a round nose bullet will leave in a paper target, it can make scoring more difficult on close shots like that.

[AZ-Stew]

A WC going 1,000+ fps ought to knock a porky, coon or grinner right out of a tree top.

OK, Grizz. It's my day to learn something. What's a "grinner"?

Regards,

Stew

[docone31]

A tree frog.

[montana_charlie]

Why would anybody shoot a tree frog???

[78CJ]

I was thinking possum

Ryan

[lead_her_fly]

There is no "point" on a wadcutter! ;)

[AZ-Stew]

I was thinking Cheshire Cat, but I understand they're scarce.

Regards,

Stew

[GrizzLeeBear]

78CJ got it, possum.

Shot a big one last year with my .22 contender pistol, dead center head shot at about 20 yds. Imobilized him, but still took 2 more at point blank to finish him. They can soak up some lead. A .357 should be a little better at it.

[AZ-Stew]

If I had been challenged to "guess or die", that's what I'd have guessed, but I've never heard them called "grinners" before.

Regards,

Stew

[dk17hmr]

Need to hollow point those wadcutters and gas check them....than they MIGHT work on grinners.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/dk17hmr/wadcutter.jpg

Alot of people that trap call them grinners, when they are in a leg hold and you come up to them they tend to smile a little and talk a bit to you.
http://www.chillphil.com/hunting/Trapping_Jan2005/DCP_1469.JPG

[oso]

The point is in the bearing length.

[Down South]

dk17hmr, Nice looking wadcutters. I've got a Lee TL wadcutter for 38/357 but I haven't loaded any of them yet to see how they do. I think that I would like one with lube grooves like yours better.

[Ricochet]

I was thinking Cheshire Cat, but I understand they're scarce.
See? Wadcutters work.

[Thumbcocker]

Well......... a Lyman 358495 over 4.9 of 231 out of a M27 Smith will shoot through a big boar possum long ways when his foor is in a trap and will end his chicken killing for good. IT will also make your ears ring for a week when you shoot inside a hen house where the tin roof is about 4' from the floor. Guess how I know. [smilie=1:

[Jim]

I assume just because of its shape it would probably knock the snot out of a porky?Ryan

Turn that wadcutter backwards and it'll knock a helluva lot more than just snot out of him!:-D

[crowbeaner]

I use the Lyman 35891 BBWC over 3.2 of Bullseye. Seat it to the top crimp groove to keep things neat. It has done in scores of red treerats; especially the ones that try to climb up my pantsleg while I'm sitting in a stand. The 358495 is a flatbase IIRC, and you don't have to wipe the lube off the base as much.

[hydraulic]

Took the wife out to the ranch today and burned up a hundred rounds of .38 special wad cutters over 2.7 grains of bullseye. The wife has a three inch Model 36 S&W, and I usually have a tough time getting her to practice. She is sensitive to recoil, and though she is a good shot, doesn't shoot much. Since I started her using these cartridges she looks forward to our shooting sessions. I have her shooting bullseye targets at 15 yds, and a twelve inch gong at 25.

[mooman76]

W/Cs can shoot better some times. I had a short barrel revolver that wouldn't shoot hat great. Good enough but I wanted it to shoot better and full W/Cs shoot the best!

[missionary5155]

This is my Desert loafing revolver S&W model 13 357 mag. I generally load this with boolits cast 20-1 from an old Ideal mold 358432 WC which drop at 162 grains backed by 6 grains Unique. Very accurate and hits hard. This is why I load WADCUTTERS. :)

[montana_charlie]

Shot a big one last year with my .22 contender pistol,
Would you share your possum recipe?

CM

[78CJ]

It looks like there is hope for this mould after all.

On a side note, my grandfather always talks about how back in the 40's and 50's you never saw a possum north of Detroit. He said that since then they just kept on moving north.

Ryan

[Bret4207]

I have WC's in 32, 38 and 44 cal. They work very well on game and really good on snapping turtles. BTW- Take that little 2.5" 38/357 and start plinking at 50 yards. Once you get the trigger and sight alignment down you'll be surprised how you can lay them in there.

[44man]

Don't give up at 50 yd's either. We have sent a lot down to 100 yd's with satisfaction. Bearing length and twist rate will keep them straight very well if it is a good match.
I hear the same stories about the WFN boolits but you can't prove it by me after sending them down to 500 meters and clanging steel.
Talking about possum's, I shot one in the head at close range with a heavy bow using heavy wood arrows years ago. I was using a blunt and when it hit the possum, the point broke off and I could hear it going a long distance whistling like a bullet. Did no harm to the little monster but my arrow was trash.

[bobk]

Colts had a faster twist, AIRC.

[bishopgrandpa]

Wadcutters are definitely for targets. If you have another need, whatever it is, you will find a bullet to cover it. There is a hugh selection of bullets for this caliber because there is so many different needs. If you find a need not covered, go to Mountain molds and design your own. It's done every day.

[Trapshooter]

Hydraulic!

I'd be very careful with a gong at 25 yards if I were you. I've had a low velocity wadcutter bounce back and hit me in the shin. Didn't bother me a lot, but would turn my wife off if it happened to her! (I did quit shooting it at close distances!)

Trapshooter

[Larry Gibson]

Back in my LEO days I competed in PPC and TRC matches in which you shoot out to 50 yards. A gajillian .38 WCs have been shot in those matches. I'd compete with a 2" M10 in the snubnose class. Even with the slower twist of S&Ws they kept the WCs (about 650 fps in the 2") stable and accurate to 50 yards. They do lose it shortly there after. I also shot lots of varmints (squirrels, rabbits, porkys <porcupines) and others) with WCs. That mondo meplat of soft lead kills all out of proportion to the velocity. A HB WC loaded backwards can be pretty accurate to 20+ yards and is quite deadly. I used to cast a Lyman GC'd WC of recovered .22 lead, quite soft. I HP'd these when loaded with a Forster HP tool. In a Ruger 4 58" barreled BH over 6.5 gr Unique they were very accurate to 100 yards and quite deadly on vermin. BTW; they do punch nice neat holes in paper targets.

Larry Gibson

[missionary5155]

Wadcutters are definitely for targets. If you have another need, whatever it is, you will find a bullet to cover it.
WEll yes and no...
I did a comparison (May) between molds as to which Boolit gave me the most favorable expansion out of my 3 inch S&W .357 model #13. This has become my desert loafing and car and office tool. Using the same lead mix (20-1) I cast from my old Ideal 358432 (160 WC) with 6 grains Unique and my Lyman 357446 (160 SWC). The 160 SWC needed .7 grains MORE Unique to expand to the same diameter as the WC boolit. This was fired into a gallon plastic sand filled jug at 20 feet. The SWC nose was expanding first absorbing energy before the body of the boolit whereas the WC just expands. So why do I want to burn more powder for the same effect? Sure I can spend the money for an LBT Large Metplate ($70) but would it really give me any better results ?

[Hipshot]

You want to do some damage-------seat one of those hollow base wadcutters backwards in a case-----mild load, in a well tuned revolver and blast away! Can't load it too hot as the force MAY blow through the nose of the boolit!

Hipshot :castmine:

[jhalcott]

why not just turn those hollow bases over and have a ready made hollw point? This should open a "grinner" quite well!
gee whiz! I guess I should have read the "REST of the story" before posting.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I found a slight velocity edge using 358091s and 358087s in my Mod 60 .38 with 1&7/8" barrel. After lots of chronographing it came down to the fact that the boolit base of a wadcutter is about an 1/8 inch farther from the muzzle when loaded than is a SWC. That translates to about 5% more distance for the boolit to travel and accelerate before leaving the short barrel. Hence I'd see about 5% more velocity or roughly 40 fps over what I could push a SWC of same weight.

Right now my Mod 60 is loaded with 358091 that will run just under 900 fps over the chronograph and I believe that is the ultimate in "force" that can be generated with a .38 Cheif.

I also run that boolit in my 4&5/8 Blackhawk at 1100 fps and have pushed it past 1300 with ease ( and a little leading, hence backing off to 1100 for general use).

My carry SP101 2&1/4 inch has a very close POI with 7.5 grs of Herco pushing 358091, as my carry load of 158 Gold Dots over 10.7 grs BlueDot. So I usually shoot 4 to 5 hunderd of them (358091s) per month through my carry gun for practice. In reality, the wadcutters would be decent choice for my carry load in .357, but I chose the GoldDots for less penetration.

Long post, but I'm a wadcutter fan, especially in .357 bored revolvers.

[35remington]

"it came down to the fact that the boolit base of a wadcutter is about an 1/8 inch farther from the muzzle when loaded than is a SWC."

The difference in velocity is primarily due to the fact that the wadcutter takes up more case volume. Higher pressures result (less room for gasses to expand initially), and the bullet goes somewhat faster.

You could probably trim that 1/8" off the barrel length and the wadcutter would still be 40 fps faster. If one eighth inch of barrel travel actually boosted velocity 40 fps, an additional inch should go 320 fps faster, which it certainly will not. The eighth inch of barrel travel doesn't mean much in terms of velocity gain.

It's the loading density.

[Ricochet]

On a side note, my grandfather always talks about how back in the 40's and 50's you never saw a possum north of Detroit. He said that since then they just kept on moving north.
Global warming. There'll be polar possums before long.

[wills]

Would you share your possum recipe?

CM

For the sake of discussion, there are a few here.

http://www.yumyum.com/recipe.htm?ID=19895

http://www.cdkitchen.com/recipes/recs/628/Baked-Possum84305.shtml

http://www.redneckpossum.com/PossumRecipes.htm

http://recipes.recipeland.com/recipes/recipe/show/Roast_Possum_45600

http://members.aol.com/TexTater/raccoon.htm

[Thumbcocker]

Don't really have a possum recipe. Don't matter they aren't picky eaters and will gerenrally eat watever is set in front of them. [smilie=1:

[Dale53]

I have loaded wadcutters for a very long time (as have a lot of the greybeards on here). Mostly, I have used either the commercial HBWC's or cast solid base wadcutters.

NOTE:
You must be very careful when loading hollow base wadcutters - it is NOT prudent to exceed normal target loads with them (my limit is 3.0 grs of Bullseye) as I have personally seen at least three fine guns seriously damaged when the skirt separated in the barrel, staying in the barrel, while the nose printed on the target. The next shot bulged the barrel. That is BAD MOJO!

I have also seen a nice custom PPC revolver nearly destroyed by shooting reversed hollow base wadcutters at higher than normal velocities (it was theorized that the base, due to "high for the bullet" pressures expanded excessively in the transition from cylinder to barrel. At any rate, THAT one took a new cylinder to restore.

The other caution is to realize that wad cutters severely reduce case capacity and you cannot rely on powder charge recipes for the same weight in a "normal" bullet. This can raise pressures enormously unless you are using a SOLID BASE wadcutter and seating it out so that the powder capacity is not changed from the "same weight NORMAL" bullet.

I shoot a lot of wadcutters in .32's and .38/357's and like them for several reasons (accurate, cut nice holes in a target, and they pretty much eliminate "powder position" sensitivity of the correct powders). After some preliminary experiments on "hotter than normal" loads many years ago, I settled on Wadcutter loads at "normal" levels. There are many excellent bullet designs for defense and I use them as intended.

I might mention that target wadcutters in the .38 Special with either HB or Plain base work extremely well on small game (instant "stops" and little collateral meat damage) at the ranges you normally shoot them (generally under 25 yards). Of course, others have mentioned this above.

I also like the fact that since I ALWAYS load them at target velocities, I am not apt to get them mixed up with heavy loads that are so visually different. I appreciate that little fact...

Dale53

[44man]

Dale, WONDERFUL information. They must NOT be loaded hot.

[Dale53]

44man;
Thank you, kind sir!:drinks:

Dale53

[Bass Ackward]

Dale, WONDERFUL information. They must NOT be loaded hot.



I load them hot all the time. I just start low and come up. With the hollow based ones, you can seat a check around backwards to strengthen the base (which is the nose really) since they are so soft and it helps out too against sizing down s much.

I have been contemplating making a wadcutter with wider bands that COULD be pushed to extremes and hold up. Maybe seat it out more too.

All wadcutter designs are meant for low velocity accuracy and you simply get what you get out of them. When a wadcutter loses accuracy for me, it is stripping cause of the narrower bands. But I don't want to harden too much and slow obturation unless I put a check on it. I might do that one too but it does seem kind senseless.

But widen them first bands out keeping the same lube capacity and I should be able to drive them soft. :grin:

I know, always bass ackward.

[dardascastbullets]

We have had several customers tell us how well our wadcutters will 'work' on varmints, squirrels, possums, and rabbits. We make our wadcutters to win matches but we have found out in the process that they are sought after for their varmint/tablefare ability! :) Our .32 caliber 98 grain wadcutter will be a welcome addition to those that shoot the .32 for competition or for varmints/tablefare!

[44man]

Now let us get carried away for a while! [smilie=1: Why not make a wad cutter with a crimp groove so the nose sticks out of the case like a Semi wad cutter or LBT, cast it harder and knock the crap out of what you shoot? :Fire: Might have to make it longer and a little heavier.
Why does a wad cutter need to be so deep in the case? It sure does not need a hollow base or nose if it fits the throats.
Darn, I might have to make a mold! :mrgreen:
Then we could load them to magnum velocities.

[GabbyM]

You'd have to size it so it would push fit into the cylinder throats.
But as you know what you are refering to is simply a WFN.

Part of the advantage of the WC is that it does take up more space in the case.
All you need do to shoot a WC fast is cast them from harder alloy. My lyman book shows a 357mag 141gr WC cast from Lino at over 1300fps. at 40K c.u.p. I'd use something softer than lino.

Someone earlier mention a singlge lube grove WC. Saeco makes one. You could also run that one out just short of you throats and crimp it in the band. I personaly don't think that would gain much but who knows until you try.

[missionary5155]

Now let us get carried away for a while! [smilie=1: Why not make a wad cutter with a crimp groove so the nose sticks out of the case like a Semi wad cutter or LBT, cast it harder and knock the crap out of what you shoot? :Fire: Might have to make it longer and a little heavier.
Why does a wad cutter need to be so deep in the case? It sure does not need a hollow base or nose if it fits the throats.
Darn, I might have to make a mold! :mrgreen:
Then we could load them to magnum velocities.

Take a look at Lyman 358432 160 grain SOLID base WC (Same as my old Ideal 358432) All you need to do is crimp it in the upper grease groove for more powder capacity or seating closer to the chamber mouth. This is an EXCELLENT shooting and Smacking boolit in my 357 S&W Model 13. I have not tested it out past 50 yards but 6 grains Unique and with WC seated normal is one GREAT plinking / critter stopper.

[EDK]

Now let us get carried away for a while! [smilie=1: Why not make a wad cutter with a crimp groove so the nose sticks out of the case like a Semi wad cutter or LBT, cast it harder and knock the crap out of what you shoot? :Fire: Might have to make it longer and a little heavier.
Why does a wad cutter need to be so deep in the case? It sure does not need a hollow base or nose if it fits the throats.
Darn, I might have to make a mold! :mrgreen:
Then we could load them to magnum velocities.

The GLL GROUP BUY 200 grain 44 full wadcutter shoots very well in everything I've tried it in...and with 'most every level of loads. Only problem is a 200 grainer shoots low in assorted VAQUEROS/BISLEY VAQUEROS and I don't want to file the sights for elevation and be stuck on one boolit weight. They sure make some nice square and unmistakable holes in targets.

Look at BLAMMER'S GROUP BUY for the 250 grain full wadcutter in 44 caliber....looks d--- near perfect to me...4 cavity brass mould from Old West Bullet Moulds. My money order for it will be in the mail by Saturday.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[KCSO]

They don't have points! They are flat on the front, and with a good mould the back too. In fact I have a mould that maked them the same on both ends so I can't get mixed up at the loading bench.

Really the idea is to leave a neat hole for scoring as if you cut the line you get the next higher score. Say you cut the 8 ring line it counts as a 9. If you were shooting a round nose bullet you might lose a point. For any other shooting thye have no practical purpose unless you like rabbits with plumb perfect holes on both sides.

[Ricochet]

Now let us get carried away for a while! [smilie=1: Why not make a wad cutter with a crimp groove so the nose sticks out of the case like a Semi wad cutter or LBT, cast it harder and knock the crap out of what you shoot? :Fire: Might have to make it longer and a little heavier.
Why does a wad cutter need to be so deep in the case? It sure does not need a hollow base or nose if it fits the throats.
Darn, I might have to make a mold! :mrgreen:
Then we could load them to magnum velocities.That's the Lyman #358432 162 grain for .38 & .357. Seated out to the crimp groove, I load it with standard 158 grain lead data in .38 Special with good results. I don't have a .357, or I'd load 'em to Magnum velocities.

[44man]

My smallest gun is a .44 but I can make a mold so it is no problem. I think a slight curve to the nose would meet the forcing cone better. Not quite a WFN or a full wad cutter either. Just a gentle rounding of the edge. Maybe a 95% nose.
When I think of a regular wad cutter, I think of the dead soft store bought things. Those are the ones to be careful about speed with. The hollow base ones would be a problem too like Dale said.
I can see where a hard cast, flat base, seated to a GG could be driven fast.
I haven't shot a wad cutter for over 50 years! I remember though how badly they leaded a barrel and the front of the cylinder even at the slow speeds. Darn things were turning to putty and squirting lead out of the gap. Store bought crap. :bigsmyl2:

[theperfessor]

Any opinions on a full WC with the front section reduced to bore diameter for a short distance?

Have enough length to size to say .358 with the nose reduced to .350/.351. Leave enough sticking out of the case to line up properly in the cylinder mouths. Sort of a bore-rider design for a pistol.

Anybody try this? Are there any commercial mold like this?

[GabbyM]

Just go to http://www.mountainmolds.com/ and draw it up.
The part above the crimp grove is refered to as front band. you can set the diameter. chose a SWC nose and adjust the length down to a button nose then set % meplat.

I drew a 155gr up with a .230" nose and .150" front band. The front band is part of that nose length. If you don't want a wc shoulder chose a secant nose. Knock yourself out.

Used WC molds seam to sell at a discount. Must not be popular anymore.
I've a coule for 38's already and have a 200gr Saeco RNFP Traditional bullet for my 44 mag. So unless the 200gr doesn't shoot well I'm covered. That Saeco #446 has a .370" meplat so I think that'll do it.

[Bret4207]

My smallest gun is a .44 but I can make a mold so it is no problem. I think a slight curve to the nose would meet the forcing cone better. Not quite a WFN or a full wad cutter either. Just a gentle rounding of the edge. Maybe a 95% nose.


You'd be reinventing the B+M style, which is about what Verals WFN is anyway.:holysheep

[44man]

I guess! I shoot a lot of WFN boolits with my largest at just short of an 80% nose for my .475. It shoots good enough for 5/8" groups at 50 yd's and to hit a tin can at 200 yd's.
It would be fun to test a 95% nose at distance to see what happens.
I just don't like a sharp front edge on a boolit, my thinking being that the nose should engage the forcing cone instead of the nose entering all the way before a little edge tries to straighten the boolit. I would carry that to the wad cutter too by just rounding the foreward edge.
I would not make the nose a bore rider with a smaller size, thats just a semi wadcutter but I would make a snug fit in the throats for the whole boolit.
There probably is something like it somewhere so it would not be a new idea, there being no such thing anyway with cast boolits! [smilie=l:
That is a failing with a lot of semi wad cutters that have a nose actually smaller then the bore size so it doesn't ride the lands as the boolit is going through the cone. If you measure all of our guns, it is rare to find bore sizes the same so most SWC's just don't match close enough and will shoot great from one gun but be a total failure in another. If the unsupported nose tips a little when the edge hits the cone you lose the accuracy. Really bad if throats are oversize or the boolit too small.
I feel the SWC is a great boolit but really needs to be fit to an individual gun perfectly.
A nice long WC fully supported by the throats should go straight and would be fun to play with.
And then, what would it do to a deer? :smile:

[Ricochet]

Any opinions on a full WC with the front section reduced to bore diameter for a short distance?

Have enough length to size to say .358 with the nose reduced to .350/.351. Leave enough sticking out of the case to line up properly in the cylinder mouths. Sort of a bore-rider design for a pistol.

Anybody try this? Are there any commercial mold like this?

Once again, that's the Ideal/Lyman #358432.