Why am I having trouble chambering cartridges in my 1886?

[Kev18]

Im making ammo and the batch I jsut finished has issues chambering. It feeds up the ramp and into the chamber until the bolt stops about 3/4 inch away from the receiver. As you can see in the picture, I sharpied the cartridge to see where it was rubbing. There is a clear ring around the neck of the cartridge. Im not sure what it means? Is that part of the bullet to fat for the chamber itself? I slugged my barrel to .409 so I beagled my .406 mold to get decent boolits. ANY HELP IS APPRECIATED. :)

https://i.imgur.com/5vkB3Q0.jpg

[bigted]

Looks to me that the boolit is too fat for the chamber. Take a fired case from this rifle and measure the fired case mouth inside just below the crimp. This is the full size that your chamber will accommodate bullet diameter wise.

Normally this is the diameter your particular rifle/cartridge wants to shoot best.

Your picture shows one of two things;

1 ... the crimp is too severe and bulged your case ... or

2 ... the boolit is too large and bulged the case ... OR

3 ... i know i said 2 but here is a third possibility, the boolit is seated crooked in the case and bulg's the case on one side.

Prolly a few other things it could be but these come to mind first.

[bigted]

My guess on second look is too severe a crimp and results in a bulged case where it begins to wrinkle from too much pressure on the case mouth while seating AND crimping in the same operation.

Normally i seat all my boolits first, then adjust a crimp to just grip in the crimp groove. Trying to crimp into a bullet that has no crimp groove or missing the crimp groove can result in this very problem.

[Kev18]

My guess on second look is too severe a crimp and results in a bulged case where it begins to wrinkle from too much pressure on the case mouth while seating AND crimping in the same operation.

Normally i seat all my boolits first, then adjust a crimp to just grip in the crimp groove. Trying to crimp into a bullet that has no crimp groove or missing the crimp groove can result in this very problem.

I dont have a crimp groove so that might be it. Is there dies that just crimp? I have a reddings die set for these cartridges. It says it can do a taper crimp but the instructions arent very clear.

[Hootmix]

Ditto ,, Ditto ,, to bigted .

[MyFlatline]

Also could be the shape of the bullet ogive, just saying..

[country gent]

Try one of your bullets in a fired case ( unsized) it should enter and seat easily. if not you may have thick brass or slightly big bullets.

[Kev18]

Try one of your bullets in a fired case ( unsized) it should enter and seat easily. if not you may have thick brass or slightly big bullets.

Im using starline brass. its for 40-82. I've been trying to reload one cartridge that would chamber properly all day. I shot the rifle hundreds of times but ive always had reloading issues. I have buffalo arms cartridges and they fall in the chamber with no friction at all. But when I drop in one of my bullets in a fired case, it dosent want to chamber for some reason. Hers what i've been doing all day.

Some fired brass doesnt want to enter the chamber like I mentioned. And again... this is just the brass(no bullet)
I pass it through a resizing die
It then decides to fall into place, similar to the Buffalo arms cartridges.
Now I load a bullet in. Dosent work.

I had this **** issue before. Some times I'd reload and out of maybe 20 cartridges. 2-3 wouldn't chamber.

[atr]

bigted correctly pointed out the two major sources of chambering problems...
good call

[Kev18]

Even if I dont crimp it, it dosent go in. I really dont know what to do. I even used a reloading tool made for 40-82. And it dosent chamber properly still.

[pietro]

I really dont know what to do.




What don't you understand about "the boolit is too large and bulged the case ... "…………………


.

[Kev18]

What don't you understand about "the boolit is too large and bulged the case ... "…………………


.
My bore is .409, I cant see how I'm supposed to chamber anything smaller then that . I was shooting a .406 dullest before beagling my mold and I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn ten yards away .

[Drm50]

There is also 3b. If these bullets are loaded as cast, could your Beagling job resulted in out of
round bullet? Would be similar to bullet being seated slightly crooked. I have seen same trouble
with 38/55 in a original 94.

[Kev18]

There is also 3b. If these bullets are loaded as cast, could your Beagling job resulted in out of
round bullet? Would be similar to bullet being seated slightly crooked. I have seen same trouble
with 38/55 in a original 94.

Maybe but I passed them through the resizer on the tool. And they still dont work.
Fully resized brass= works, drops in, no friction.
Bullet in resized brass crimp/no crimp dosent work.
pulled the bullet, retried the brass. Dosent work.

Even if I get a really nice mold, if the **** bullet is to big, it still wont chamber...
How come the buffalo arms cartridges drop in with no friction. I pulled the bullet out of one, and added my bullet. Dosent work. Il try adding their bullet in one of my cases, see what happens. I've literally been trying all day.

[2152hq]

I suspect the brass cases are too long.
Either the cases are too long or the chamber perhaps a bit short up front.

New brass often needs a trimming to at least put some uniformity to the OAL on the lot.
Many can be too long and that may be the cause of the problem.
Sometimes you have to trim to a bit less than the 'spec' for these old ones.

[smokeywolf]

Im using starline brass. its for 40-82. I've been trying to reload one cartridge that would chamber properly all day. I shot the rifle hundreds of times but ive always had reloading issues. I have buffalo arms cartridges and they fall in the chamber with no friction at all. But when I drop in one of my bullets in a fired case, it dosent want to chamber for some reason. Hers what i've been doing all day.

Some fired brass doesnt want to enter the chamber like I mentioned. And again... this is just the brass(no bullet)
I pass it through a resizing die
It then decides to fall into place, similar to the Buffalo arms cartridges.
Now I load a bullet in. Dosent work.

I had this **** issue before. Some times I'd reload and out of maybe 20 cartridges. 2-3 wouldn't chamber.

Kev, have you miked the diameter of the Buffalo Arms cartridge cases in the same place that you're seeing rub marks on your cartridge in the supplied picture? I suggest you mike diameters of both the Buffalo Arms cartridge cases at that spot, and your own.
If the Buffalo Arms bullets are working for you figure out which one they're using, buy a box and mike them.

[Kev18]

Kev, have you miked the diameter of the Buffalo Arms cartridge cases in the same place that you're seeing rub marks on your cartridge in the supplied picture? I suggest you mike diameters of both the Buffalo Arms cartridge cases at that spot, and your own.
If the Buffalo Arms bullets are working for you figure out which one they're using, buy a box and mike them.

Il need to measure exactly the dimensions tommorrow. It must be my bullets. I pulled the Buffalo arms bullet out, expanded case mouth, and dropped my bullet in. Dosent work.

[Walks]

Starline brass has very thick necks. I use the BERTRAM BRASS from AUSTRALIA. Yea, I know It's soft, but it works great in my 1886 in .40-82, my bore is .405dia. I cast the LYMAN #403169 of 1/20 , it drops at .406, so I'm really only Lubing them in a .406 die. I use White Label Lube's BAC on everything now. Except for Black Powder. My 1886 is a std 28" Octagon bbl MADE IN 1889.

And I bought those 5 boxes of BERTRAM BRASS 25yrs ago from GRAF&SONS, I think they were less than $30 A box. They are still working great. Loaded them 6-8 times haven't lost a case yet. Trimmed twice I think. Light charge of IMR3031. And I use a LYMAN Taper Crimp Die.

[garandsrus]

I don’t know if your boolit is too large, but your crimp is definitely not correct. You can see a lot of lead that is shaved/deformed near the case mouth.

Are you expanding the case mouth before seating the bullet? A taper crimp should remove the flair and that’s about it. The case is not rolled into the bullet.

To correct your die setting, you will need to screw out the seating die several turns. Run a case in with a bullet and get the correct seating length. The case flair will still be there. After the bullet is the correct depth, turn the seating stem out by 4 or 5 turns. You can even completely remove it. Now, turn the seating die in by about 1/2 turn and see if the case flair is removed. It probably won’t be. Keep turning the die in by 1/2 turn and check the flair until it is removed. This is your taper crimp. Then, run the case back into the die and turn the bullet seating stem back down until it touches the bullet and stops. This should seat a bullet and set the proper crimp.

It is never a bad idea to seat and crimp in a different step but both can commonly be done at the same time.

I have also run loaded rounds partially through the sizing die with the decapping stem removed. The die is started high and the cartridge is run into the die. It shouldn’t touch anything. With the round in the die, screw the die into the press until the case is contacted. Lower the ram, then screw the die in about 1/2 turn, run the case into the die and see if your round will chamber freely. Keep screwing the die in and testing the fit in the rifle. It will probably take a couple revolutions of the die after the contact is made before the round chambers freely. This should produce the equivalent of a taper crimp. It could also size the bullet where it contacts the case walls, so go slow.

[Kev18]

Starline brass has very thick necks. I use the BERTRAM BRASS from AUSTRALIA. Yea, I know It's soft, but it works great in my 1886 in .40-82, my bore is .405dia. I cast the LYMAN #403169 of 1/20 , it drops at .406, so I'm really only Lubing them in a .406 die. I use White Label Lube's BAC on everything now. Except for Black Powder. My 1886 is a std 28" Octagon bbl MADE IN 1889.

And I bought those 5 boxes of BERTRAM BRASS 25yrs ago from GRAF&SONS, I think they were less than $30 A box. They are still working great. Loaded them 6-8 times haven't lost a case yet. Trimmed twice I think. Light charge of IMR3031. And I use a LYMAN Taper Crimp Die.

I measured the neck yesterday and it showed up as 0.08 I think. And I looked at the brass you mentioned from Australia but it is very expensive.

[Kev18]

I don’t know if your boolit is too large, but your crimp is definitely not correct. You can see a lot of lead that is shaved/deformed near the case mouth.

Are you expanding the case mouth before seating the bullet? A taper crimp should remove the flair and that’s about it. The case is not rolled into the bullet.

To correct your die setting, you will need to screw out the seating die several turns. Run a case in with a bullet and get the correct seating length. The case flair will still be there. After the bullet is the correct depth, turn the seating stem out by 4 or 5 turns. You can even completely remove it. Now, turn the seating die in by about 1/2 turn and see if the case flair is removed. It probably won’t be. Keep turning the die in by 1/2 turn and check the flair until it is removed. This is your taper crimp. Then, run the case back into the die and turn the bullet seating stem back down until it touches the bullet and stops. This should seat a bullet and set the proper crimp.

It is never a bad idea to seat and crimp in a different step but both can commonly be done at the same time.

I have also run loaded rounds partially through the sizing die with the decapping stem removed. The die is started high and the cartridge is run into the die. It shouldn’t touch anything. With the round in the die, screw the die into the press until the case is contacted. Lower the ram, then screw the die in about 1/2 turn, run the case into the die and see if your round will chamber freely. Keep screwing the die in and testing the fit in the rifle. It will probably take a couple revolutions of the die after the contact is made before the round chambers freely. This should produce the equivalent of a taper crimp. It could also size the bullet where it contacts the case walls, so go slow.

I havent throught about running a round thrrough the sizing die. Smart! Il give it a try.

[Kev18]

I suspect the brass cases are too long.
Either the cases are too long or the chamber perhaps a bit short up front.

New brass often needs a trimming to at least put some uniformity to the OAL on the lot.
Many can be too long and that may be the cause of the problem.
Sometimes you have to trim to a bit less than the 'spec' for these old ones.

Definetly will check that out. It would make sense that the brass is trying to almost enter where the boolit should be.

[Chill Wills]

Can you accurately measure:
The Buffalo arms bullet diameter?
The diameter of the bullet you cast?
The buffalo Arms loaded round (diameter) at the neck (around the case with bullet in the case)?
and then your loaded case/bullet diameter at the case neck?

These are the critical areas. Case length should be measured too but if you have new cases, that may be fine, but measure it too!

Post them.

The two most used items on a handloaders bench should be a small flashlight and an accurate dial caliber OR (and) micrometer. Measure stuff, take notes, so you know what you are doing.

[Kev18]

OK GUYS. I finally got something going here. Someone mentioned to run a cartridge through the sizing die to make a taper crimp and it worked. Sometimes I need to pass one cartridge more then once, and its clear now that when I do this, the case has a bulge right where the boolit ends. Im guessing the sizing die pushes that bulge back in. My only concerns now are:
Will my bullet get sized down with the case? I think my resizing die is for .406 but I need a bullet thats at least .409-.410.

And just a question again. The cartridges chamber nicely now, but they have issues getting into the chamber itself. Meaning that when they are on the feeding ramp, they seem a tad lower then the chamber so the lead scrapes off abit from the bullet. I also need to wiggle the gun for it to get the right angle.
Anyone know why?
Thanks alot for all the help!

[MyFlatline]

Sounds as if they are to long.

[garandsrus]

Make sure you adjust the seating die. You don’t have it set up correctly. Once you have it set correctly, you may not need to use the sizing die for the crimp.

Yes, the sizing die can size the bullet down.

How do they shoot? Might be better than you expect.

[Outpost75]

I would also check your chamber diameter from a cast. Some old guns have tight-necked chambers combined with large groove diameters, which prevent loading a bullet of large enough diameter to fit the barrel. The possible solutions are to either use a heeled bullet, turn the case necks to reduce their thickness, or ream the chamber neck slightly to provide the needed release clearance. MANY .44-40s in the black powder era were made this way and work fine with paper-thin old brass, but not with heavier modern brass. Read the sticky on bullet fit. A dummy cartridge with seated bullet should not be any larger than 0.0015" SMALLER than the chamber neck diameter determined from a cast.

A solution which "works", but is not perfect, is to resize the loaded rounds just enough so that they enter into the chamber without resistance. Once you know the chamber diameter you can look for a Lee Factory crimp die or profile sizer which reduces the loaded cartridge neck diameter no more than necessary, so as to avoid damaging the bullet.

[smokeywolf]

I measured the neck yesterday and it showed up as 0.08 I think. And I looked at the brass you mentioned from Australia but it is very expensive.

I can't think of what might measure .080 (80 thousandths) anywhere on or around the neck of a 40-82 cartridge. Could you be more specific regarding exactly what you measured?

[Kev18]

Make sure you adjust the seating die. You don’t have it set up correctly. Once you have it set correctly, you may not need to use the sizing die for the crimp.

Yes, the sizing die can size the bullet down.

How do they shoot? Might be better than you expect.

I didnt go shoot yet. Hopefully il be able to tomorrow.

[Kev18]

I can't think of what might measure .080 (80 thousandths) anywhere on or around the neck of a 40-82 cartridge. Could you be more specific regarding exactly what you measured?

The thickness of the brass around the neck is 0.008. I just went to measure it again. Im using starline brass and people say it is thick. I dont know how thick brass should be?

[Kev18]

I would also check your chamber diameter from a cast. Some old guns have tight-necked chambers combined with large groove diameters, which prevent loading a bullet of large enough diameter to fit the barrel. The possible solutions are to either use a heeled bullet, turn the case necks to reduce their thickness, or ream the chamber neck slightly to provide the needed release clearance. MANY .44-40s in the black powder era were made this way and work fine with paper-thin old brass, but not with heavier modern brass. Read the sticky on bullet fit. A dummy cartridge with seated bullet should not be any larger than 0.0015" SMALLER than the chamber neck diameter determined from a cast.

A solution which "works", but is not perfect, is to resize the loaded rounds just enough so that they enter into the chamber without resistance. Once you know the chamber diameter you can look for a Lee Factory crimp die or profile sizer which reduces the loaded cartridge neck diameter no more than necessary, so as to avoid damaging the bullet.

I passed the laoding cartridge in the resizing die and it seems to work now. People are saying it will down size the bullet in the case?

[Outpost75]

I passed the laoding cartridge in the resizing die and it seems to work now. People are saying it will down size the bullet in the case?


Yes, it will. With a very soft bullet and black powder, it may still shoot OK, but what you want is a die which represents maximum cartridge, rather than minimum chamber, which the sizing die does..Won't hurt to try a few, but they may not shoot well.

[smokeywolf]

The thickness of the brass around the neck is 0.008. I just went to measure it again. Im using starline brass and people say it is thick. I dont know how thick brass should be?

To be honest, I'm not sure what what you brass thickness should be at the neck. I buy 40-65 brass from Starline and have never had a need to measure them.

[country gent]

I use the sizing dies for a light crimp ( just enough to set bullet tension ) after hand seating a bullet. I have a spacer made that's roughly .400 thick. when setting the tension this ring goes under the sizing dies lock ring. this set tension to where the bullet stays in but still turned by hand.

For what your wanting to do you may not need to run the round all the way into the die. Just enough so the taper compresses it to chamber. easier measurements to compare is loaded neck size between the working and sticking rounds. this should be around .430 dia on your round depending on brass and bullet dia.

On my BPCR rounds fired in single shot rifles I deprime by hand and clean. reprime by hand. add powder and desired wad stack. compress to depth. hand seat bullet onto wads. last I run into sizing die partial to set neck tension where I want it. bullet stays in case handling but can still be turned by hand.

[Chill Wills]

To be honest, I'm not sure what what you brass thickness should be at the neck. I buy 40-65 brass from Starline and have never had a need to measure them.

smokeywolf, I am not sure the OP will be able to measure the neck wall accurately with what ever tool he is using to measure. I believe you and country gent might get an accurate reading but the average guy with out a tube mic is whistling in the wind. Do you agree?

Kev18 - I think the advice of both measuring and posting those number on her so we can see them too, as well as trying to put an unfired bullet into a fired Starline case, will reveal if the problem is too large a bullet in too thick a case.
Outpost75 outlined the sometimes problem of tight case neck/large bore and groove; and for that, these old BP rifles worked fine with BP and lead back in the day. The first owner might never have know he had a problem.:wink:

Thinning out case walls sounds advanced and maybe it is a little intimidating, BUT it is the correct fix.
I have done a bunch so I didn't have to mess up an old rifle chamber. Forester makes a great little tool for doing this, and it is easy to do a bunch of cases. Then you will be set up and can shoot! Plus, you will have learned a few things in the process. If you have, say, 0.011" thick necks and turning them down to 0.009" fixes everything, it is a best case fix, and sorry about the bad pun.

One more thing, I would check again the bore/groove measurements! An error there, then proceeding on bad assumptions will compound failure. Just like carpenters say; Measure twice (carefully) and cut once.

[bigted]

Maybe i was too vague about a step i feel you have overlooked. That is a poor mans way to determine what your chamber is asking for.

1 ... shoot tow or three shells in your rifle.

2 ... witthout touching the case mouth with any tool, measure the inside diameter just below any crimp that is left on the case mouth.

3 ... this measurement is final and till something gets changed in the chamber/throat area, this measurement is the LARGEST boolit able to work in your rifle , period .

No matter what the bore and groove numbers are, your chamber is not going to change into what you want/need for the barrel measurements .. rather the needs for the functioning of your rifles action.

This leaves you with the possibility of a tight chamber which will not allow the needed diameter of boolit that will give accuracy a decent chance.

The FIX if this is indeed the problem, is to open the chamber neck area to accept the proper size boolit that when loaded, will function thru the action and chamber as well as be proper for the groove needs of the barrel

Check the fired cases first before doing anything. If the measurement is too tight for your boolits then a chamber cast is going to be required for a for sure diagnosis of your problem.

Good luck and I'm hoping for you that the cure is easy and fast.

[country gent]

While not as common today. some rifles were cut with small chamber for paper patch bore riding bullets. Ive seen several of the single shots like this but never a lever action with this style chamber. Several ways to get an idea of what you have are:

1) a chamber cast of the chamber throat and leade. this will give an easy to measure image of these areas.
2) measure a fired unsized case neck dimension this is harder to do and requires a better feel of the "touch"
3) compare loaded neck dias from working rounds to the ones sticking this gives a comparative measurement between the rounds
4) neck wall thickness is tricky to measure with out a ball mike or gage. even then a burr or bad edge gives a skewed dimension.

Thinning the neck can be done in 2 ways ream or neck turn. Both require some specialized tools. both accomplish the same thing in the end. On Straight walled cases I prefer reaming over turning. Actuallynota super big job it needs to be done right and with care.

Neck turning requires a properly sized mandrell in a holder with a single point cutting tool that's adjustable for the cut, normally turned by hand. cases are sized to this mandrel and then the cutter is set to remove the amount needed when turned this remove material from the outside of the neck. On a shouldered case the cut is blended in to the neck shoulder junction leaving no steps or ridge. Done right and with care .0002 can be held. Bench reaters use this with fitted necks and may hold ,0005-.001 neck clearences on loaded rounds.

Reaming is done with a cutter that runs inside the case and removes material there. For best accuracy the case is supported in a die, this keeps the neck from expanding around the reamer. The case is ran in the die in the press and the reamer supported straight and square in a bushing. the reamer is turned thru by hand. on straight wall cases the body taper allows the reamer to fade out better. Not a big a step or ridge when reaming to below seating depth. .001 increment reamers are available
and a couple passes with a fine stone on the flutes will make a 1/2 size. Once you determine the right size reamer and get it theres no setting for size it cuts to size. pin gages are a big help here. as the die can be ran into the die and pin gages used to measure id in the die. then the reamer purchased to remove the amount needed. IE if you need to remove .001 then a reamer pin gage size and .001 is purchased. The reamer can be driven with a tap handle and will cut to size or very closely.

[cwtebay]

I'm certain that this may be a wrong way - but I encountered a similar situation in an 1876 - 45/75 - full length sized the case, expand back to "just fired" size, barely seat the bullet, then gently chamber the (powerless, primerless) round. If it's the bullet it will bulge or buckle the case (hence the g... e... n... t... l... e). The bullet should seat to near normal seating depth. Rules out the crimp, bullet cant.
I'm really liking reading this thread!! Learning lots!!

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[Kev18]

Maybe i was too vague about a step i feel you have overlooked. That is a poor mans way to determine what your chamber is asking for.

1 ... shoot tow or three shells in your rifle.

2 ... witthout touching the case mouth with any tool, measure the inside diameter just below any crimp that is left on the case mouth.

3 ... this measurement is final and till something gets changed in the chamber/throat area, this measurement is the LARGEST boolit able to work in your rifle , period .

No matter what the bore and groove numbers are, your chamber is not going to change into what you want/need for the barrel measurements .. rather the needs for the functioning of your rifles action.

This leaves you with the possibility of a tight chamber which will not allow the needed diameter of boolit that will give accuracy a decent chance.

The FIX if this is indeed the problem, is to open the chamber neck area to accept the proper size boolit that when loaded, will function thru the action and chamber as well as be proper for the groove needs of the barrel

Check the fired cases first before doing anything. If the measurement is too tight for your boolits then a chamber cast is going to be required for a for sure diagnosis of your problem.

Good luck and I'm hoping for you that the cure is easy and fast.

Im going to shoot tomorrow. Il keep a couple case and measure the inside diameter as best I can.
And im not sure if there is any confusion, but I have owned this rifle for 3 years. And I have shot it plenty. It just was hard to chamber with my reloads so I am now looking for a fix.

[BK7saum]

Regardless of whether your chamber is too tight or not, it seems that your seating/crimping die is not set up correctly. You are OVER crimping and the bulge below the bullet is very likely due to the OVER-crimping. Too much crimp bulges the case and keeps cartridges from chambering.

[Walks]

25+yrs ago there was no neck turning option available. And a neck reaming setup was more than 1/2 again the price of 5 boxes of BERTRAM BRASS. A REDDING 3 DIE SET was expensive enough. Add a mold & SIZING DIE w/ top punch to the BERTRAM brass price and 100 Starline .45-90 cases I couldn't use. And I'd spent almost the price of the rifle, before firing a shot.

A couple of years later Ken at TEN-X AMMO made a limited run of .40-82 PBFP Smokeless ammo. At $60 bucks a box it wasn't cheap. The loads used B.E.L.L. reformed brass. I shot one box and kept the other. That B.E.L.L. brass reloaded fantastic. It functioned perfectly and shot very well too.

[Kev18]

Kinda unrelated, but can someone tell me what the proper sight picture is for a tang sight ? I have a layman tang right on the 86 and I've been trying to figure out what the sight picture should be. Should I see the whole front sight , or just the blade through the hole?its really bugging me.

[Texas by God]

Kinda unrelated, but can someone tell me what the proper sight picture is for a tang sight ? I have a layman tang right on the 86 and I've been trying to figure out what the sight picture should be. Should I see the whole front sight , or just the blade through the hole?its really bugging me.Your eye will automatically center the front sight- don't fight it. On a post front I like to sight the gun in to where the bulĺet strikes right on top of the post.

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[Texas by God]

Try casting with soft lead without beagling, use soft lube like LLA, and use Unique to get that BP like "bump up" on the bullet base.
A Ruger Vaquero 44-40 with .426" cyl throats and a .430" barrel taught me so.

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[Kev18]

Your eye will automatically center the front sight- don't fight it. On a post front I like to sight the gun in to where the bulĺet strikes right on top of the post.

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I think that's what my problem is . I fight it too much . For example when I shoot really fast . Il get a really good three shot group. Then when I take my sweet time to make an accurate shot , I wont hit a 20 inch target . Doesn't make any sense to me . How am I supposed to go hunting if I can't take time to shoot... I'm surely not going to rapid fire on a deer. :/

[Kev18]

Try casting with soft lead without beagling, use soft lube like LLA, and use Unique to get that BP like "bump up" on the bullet base.
A Ruger Vaquero 44-40 with .426" cyl throats and a .430" barrel taught me so.

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Il try unique . I've been told smokeless powder doesn't bump up bullets. I'm not to good with powders . I now reload with 3031. Will unique have low pressures? I need to keep it under 1500 fps. And where could I get load data for my cartridge?

[EDG]

Just turn your brass if you need a smaller neck.
Once a friend had a Remington Hepburn in 40-70 Sharps Straight with the paper patch chamber. When loaded with .410 grease groove bullets the chamber required .003 thick case necks. The foil like necks just crushed when bullets were seated. He had a long skinny boring bar made and removed his barrel. I bored the neck out to give .004 clearance over his brass. The modified rifle was exceptionally accurate.

[zymguy]

The thickness of the brass around the neck is 0.008. I just went to measure it again. Im using starline brass and people say it is thick. I dont know how thick brass should be?

Starline doesnt sell 48-82, what brass are you using ?

[Kev18]

Starline doesnt sell 48-82, what brass are you using ?

45-90. I ordered cartridges from buffalo arms at least 6 boxes , and got more made from gad customs . All of them used starline brass . Its just a 45-90 trimmed a bit and necked down. Although I would really like to have some stamped 40-82 cases . Might order from grafs one day .
I have original cartridges but those are really rare and expensive so I dorn feel like shooting and reloading them.:)

[indian joe]

45-90. I ordered cartridges from buffalo arms at least 6 boxes , and got more made from gad customs . All of them used starline brass . Its just a 45-90 trimmed a bit and necked down. Although I would really like to have some stamped 40-82 cases . Might order from grafs one day .
I have original cartridges but those are really rare and expensive so I dorn feel like shooting and reloading them.:)

Kev
Starline brass - necked down - boolit a little fat - maybe crimp a bit too severe - little stuff adds up
I just shot my sons 38/40 this morning and had a similar problem as you - its a 73 rebarreled - chamber is pretty neat - starline brass - booits shot as cast - 4 out of ten tight to chamber - upon examining this it was straight down to overdoing the crimp - could see that little swelling about 2mm worth just below the crimp just like on your rounds.
I have the same problem with my 76 Uberti using reformed 348 cases - neck is a little fat - chamber is neat - it likes a fattish boolit (459.5) - there is NOTHING to spare up there at all - I made a die for the 76 and use that after the crimping operation - it squishes about a tenth inch of the case just a touch - just enough to allow easy chambering.
If you switched to blackpowder or a duplex load in your 86 that would do away with the need for a heavy crimp - I would consider having a die made to gently swage just the area causing the problem - would make that myself here - make a 7/8 thread blank, bore it 13/32 - by time you polish that out smooth enough to work your brass is gonna be awful close to correct size for OD of the case neck - and the polishing will leave a tiny taper at the mouth - load em - crimp em - put em back through that neck swage die till they JUST chamber comfortably - thats been my process for the 45-75 Uberti and works well.

[Kev18]

I've been shooting all day yesterday. I probably shot well over 50 rounds . I kept all the brass untouched, to measure the diameter inside the neck . So far all the cartridges I shot were passed through the sizing die to "taper" crimp them. The chambered and ejected fine so far. Il need a way to seat the bullet without crimping so I could put it in the sizing die.
Il also need to experiment with the winchester reloading tool. It was made for 40-82 in 1884. So it must not crimp a lot of it was made for the single shot rifles?
Anyways, I'm glad we're making progress here ! Thanks for all the consistent help. :)

[garandsrus]

Il need a way to seat the bullet without crimping so I could put it in the sizing die.

The statement you wrote shows that you don’t understand the seating die and how it works. Please re-read what I and others have written about adjusting the seating die. It is designed to seat the bullet and optionally crimp the case mouth. YOUR SEATING DIE IS NOT ADJUSTED PROPERLY! It needs to be unscrewed a couple turns.

The sizing die is probably just fixing the problem you created with an improperly adjusted seating die. We can talk if this is confusing. Send me a PM with your phone number and I will call you.

Here is a video from Hornady that shows the process of setting up a seating die without crimping the round: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4l5qM6AQqRQ#fauxfullscreen

If you want to remove the case bell or add some crimp, simply screw the die in 1/4 turn and see what the result is. You may do this a couple times. Make sure you have unscrewed the seating stem so that the bullet is not being pushed deeper in the case.
Were the loads accurate? Any leading in the barrel?

[Kev18]

The statement you wrote shows that you don’t understand the seating die and how it works. Please re-read what I and others have written about adjusting the seating die. It is designed to seat the bullet and optionally crimp the case mouth. YOUR SEATING DIE IS NOT ADJUSTED PROPERLY! It needs to be unscrewed a couple turns.

The sizing die is probably just fixing the problem you created with an improperly adjusted seating die. We can talk if this is confusing. Send me a PM with your phone number and I will call you.

Here is a video from Hornady that shows the process of setting up a seating die without crimping the round: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4l5qM6AQqRQ#fauxfullscreen

If you want to remove the case bell or add some crimp, simply screw the die in 1/4 turn and see what the result is. You may do this a couple times. Make sure you have unscrewed the seating stem so that the bullet is not being pushed deeper in the case.
Were the loads accurate? Any leading in the barrel?

I know I can seat a bullet without crimping, I've done it plenty times. Il just need to do a taper crimp or light crimp. I did a couple light crimps some time ago, but just by pushing the cartridges in the loading gate, the bullets would fall inside the case.

And honestly its hard to tell how accurate the loads are . Im still trying t oget used to my peep sight on the rifle. My whole life I have shot with buckhorn style sights. Il aim down the tang sight and miss everything. Then ten seconds later il load up three more shots and do a one inch group. I have trouble finding what the right sight picture should be for the peep sight. Should I put my face up close and only see the top of the sight blade? The whole sight blade? The whole front sight? The whole front sight and the barrel?
Iv'e been told peeps are super accurate sights so I bought a Lyman, I have yet to see the accuracy even after a year.

[country gent]

Kev 18, sizing 45-90 down to 40 - 82 will thicken necks in 2 ways. 1) as you go down the case length wall thickness get thicker. 2) sizing down the added brass makes necks thicker. So your 45-90 with ,.008-.009 neck wall is probably becoming .009-.010 thru sizing down from 45-40 cal and another .001 or 2 for the shortening. I would go back to the original mould unbeagled and cast from a soft alloy load in the 1250-1300 fps range you will probably be surprised.

How are you sizing this brass down from 45-90 to 40-82 ? taking a 45-70 down to 40-65 takes some pretty good leverage and force to do in 1 pass. This is do to the full body taper and size reduction both.

For a make shift taper crimp die try a 10mm auto sizing die, set it too just touch the case mouth with the ram raised and adjust down for the desired crimp needed. For this you only need the die body no decapper or rods. Just the die body. The 40 S&W and 10mm use a .401 dia bullet and the tapers pistol case in these dies the tapered case body area becomes your taper crimp die. Adjust down 1/8-1/4 turn at a time from touch on case mouth

[Kev18]

Kev 18, sizing 45-90 down to 40 - 82 will thicken necks in 2 ways. 1) as you go down the case length wall thickness get thicker. 2) sizing down the added brass makes necks thicker. So your 45-90 with ,.008-.009 neck wall is probably becoming .009-.010 thru sizing down from 45-40 cal and another .001 or 2 for the shortening. I would go back to the original mould unbeagled and cast from a soft alloy load in the 1250-1300 fps range you will probably be surprised.

How are you sizing this brass down from 45-90 to 40-82 ? taking a 45-70 down to 40-65 takes some pretty good leverage and force to do in 1 pass. This is do to the full body taper and size reduction both.

For a make shift taper crimp die try a 10mm auto sizing die, set it too just touch the case mouth with the ram raised and adjust down for the desired crimp needed. For this you only need the die body no decapper or rods. Just the die body. The 40 S&W and 10mm use a .401 dia bullet and the tapers pistol case in these dies the tapered case body area becomes your taper crimp die. Adjust down 1/8-1/4 turn at a time from touch on case mouth

I didnt do any of the case work myself. All my cases are from loaded cartridges I bought from buffalo arms or GAD customs.
And all my bullets that I cast are pure lead. (old lead pipes) I only started experimenting with wheel weights this month.
I reload with 34 grains of 3031 to get 1495 fps. A user in this thread mentioned using Unique to Bump up the bullet like Black powder. My issue is where would I get load data for my rifle/caliber? My loads need to be under 1500fps so I dont fry my barrel. With low pressures also... Any suggestions?

[garandsrus]

I know I can seat a bullet without crimping, I've done it plenty times. Il just need to do a taper crimp or light crimp. I did a couple light crimps some time ago, but just by pushing the cartridges in the loading gate, the bullets would fall inside the case.

Ok. You asked how to seat the bullets without a crimp.

By the way, the light crimps you mentioned where the bullet easily slid into the case were not due to a light crimp. They were more than likely insufficient case neck tension due to the sizing die not resizing the cases enough to create case neck tension. Could also be undersize bullets. The crimp alone doesnt hold the bullet in the case.

Some people shoot single shots with no neck tension but it’s not commonly done with any other action types that I know of.

Good luck....

[snowwolfe]

Is your rifle a reproduction Winchester 1886? Even though you might have the issue fixed suggest you have a gunsmith examine the rifle for a short throat. Trying to chamber a long bullet in a short throated chamber could continue you to have issues down the road.

[uscra112]

I would also check your chamber diameter from a cast. Some old guns have tight-necked chambers combined with large groove diameters, which prevent loading a bullet of large enough diameter to fit the barrel.

Those guns were intended for paper-patched boolits. The boolits were dead soft lead, and with the patch in place were smaller than groove diameter. This enabled them to fit into a fouled throat easily. On firing they would bump up to fill the grooves. Standard practice for the Mauser 71 and 71/84 military rifles, and I've read also for Sharps rifles in the period. I've pulled down enough original Mauser paper-patched ammo to know that this is indeed the case. Shooting naked boolits in these rifles is always a problem, because the naked boolit has to be bigger than the patched boolits were.

PROPER solution is to read up on paper patching, cast some boolits of the correct diameter and alloy, patch them, load them, and shoot them. You'll be pleasantly surprised, if not amazed.

BTW if Starline is shipping brass with neck walls thicker than maybe .008" at the mouth, this will be an issue also. Brass from the 1880s tended to be very thin there, compared to what we expect to see today. So it's a good bet that you'll have to thin the necks on the brass no matter what boolit you are using.

[Kev18]

Ok. You asked how to seat the bullets without a crimp.

By the way, the light crimps you mentioned where the bullet easily slid into the case were not due to a light crimp. They were more than likely insufficient case neck tension due to the sizing die not resizing the cases enough to create case neck tension. Could also be undersize bullets. The crimp alone doesnt hold the bullet in the case.

Some people shoot single shots with no neck tension but it’s not commonly done with any other action types that I know of.

Good luck....

Well I try as much as possible to not run my cases through the sizing die. I have been told that it really shortens the life of the cases?

[Kev18]

Is your rifle a reproduction Winchester 1886? Even though you might have the issue fixed suggest you have a gunsmith examine the rifle for a short throat. Trying to chamber a long bullet in a short throated chamber could continue you to have issues down the road.

Not a repro. It was made in 1889.

[uscra112]

Then I stand by what I posted - you have a rifle with what would today be considered an abnormally small neck. Mike a fired case from one of your factory rounds. Compare with your reloads. Post both numbers for us. Interim solution will be to thin the neck walls to maybe .005", use a smaller boolit, until your reloads have a neck dimension small enough to enter the chamber. Take apart one of the factory rounds and measure the neck wall and boolit diameter, too. Post the numbers for us.

Any boolit you use in this rifle will have to be very soft, so that will obturate quickly. The original factory rounds that I have examined were not only dead soft, they were swaged, not cast. Much cheaper process for manufacturing them in military volume. ('course the patching added cost, but....)

Powder should be Holy Black, or a fairly fast smokeless. (Here finally is a use for Trail Boss, which I otherwise abhor.)

[Kev18]

Then I stand by what I posted - you have a rifle with what would today be considered an abnormally small neck. Mike a fired case from one of your factory rounds. Compare with your reloads. Post both numbers for us. Interim solution will be to thin the neck walls to maybe .005", use a smaller boolit, until your reloads have a neck dimension small enough to enter the chamber. Take apart one of the factory rounds and measure the neck wall and boolit diameter, too. Post the numbers for us.

Any boolit you use in this rifle will have to be very soft, so that will obturate quickly. The original factory rounds that I have examined were not only dead soft, they were swaged, not cast. Much cheaper process for manufacturing them in military volume. ('course the patching added cost, but....)

Powder should be Holy Black, or a fairly fast smokeless. (Here finally is a use for Trail Boss, which I otherwise abhor.)

What do you mean by "Mike"? Do I need a special measuring tool? I have calipers, im not really fancy. And im pretty much a beginner in the reloading world.
And even if I would pull apart original cartridges, it still wouldnt tell me what I need. Original 40-82 1886's were know for varying bores. From .406 to .410.

[uscra112]

Micrometer. If you have a digital caliper, that will be good enough for this job. But you might think about adding an economy model 1" micrometer to your tool set.

I can guess that Winchester wasn't too fussy about groove diameters because the soft lead boolits everybody used (usually patched) could be expected to "slug up", (i.e. expand their diameter), under the pressure of the powder explosion, to fill the grooves, no matter what size. As I wrote earlier, boolits for black powder rifles had to be smaller than we normally use for smokeless, because they had to fit into the barrel throat when it was choked with fouling, and they were soft lead, so they could expand as necessary. Rifle chambers were cut accordingly.

The only shooters who used boolits sized to right up to groove diameter were target shooters, but they cleaned their barrels obsessively after every shot.

Sizing that kind of case doesn't hurt it enough to matter. But the sized case mouth should be just small enough so that the boolit slides in easily, and doesn't fall out if you turn the round upside down and shake it gently. That's how I do it for my single shots. If your die is sizing smaller than that after the expander plug has done its' thing, you need a bigger expander, or maybe a different die. We won't know until you can provide us with some measurements.

In any case, you will be crimping aggressively to keep the boolits in place when they're in the magazine tube, and that will be the limiting factor for case life, not the sizing. Crimping the lip inward and then having it blown out on firing, and then flared for boolit seating, and then crimped inward again on the next reload, will cause the lip to start cracking long before anything goes sour from sizing.

[Kev18]

Micrometer. If you have a digital caliper, that will be good enough for this job. But you might think about adding an economy model 1" micrometer to your tool set.

I can guess that Winchester wasn't too fussy about groove diameters because the soft lead boolits everybody used (usually patched) could be expected to "slug up", (i.e. expand their diameter), under the pressure of the powder explosion, to fill the grooves, no matter what size. As I wrote earlier, boolits for black powder rifles had to be smaller than we normally use for smokeless, because they had to fit into the barrel throat when it was choked with fouling, and they were soft lead, so they could expand as necessary. Rifle chambers were cut accordingly.

The only shooters who used boolits sized to right up to groove diameter were target shooters, but they cleaned their barrels obsessively after every shot.

Sizing that kind of case doesn't hurt it enough to matter. But the sized case mouth should be just small enough so that the boolit slides in easily, and doesn't fall out if you turn the round upside down and shake it gently. That's how I do it for my single shots. If your die is sizing smaller than that after the expander plug has done its' thing, you need a bigger expander, or maybe a different die. We won't know until you can provide us with some measurements.

In any case, you will be crimping aggressively to keep the boolits in place when they're in the magazine tube, and that will be the limiting factor for case life, not the sizing. Crimping the lip inward and then having it blown out on firing, and then flared for boolit seating, and then crimped inward again on the next reload, will cause the lip to start cracking long before anything goes sour from sizing.

I just used my electronic calipers and the outside of the case , right under the crimp is .427 and a bit lower is .430. The inside diameter varies, but I'm guessing it's because my cases aren't 100% round , I picked out two that looked round. I took the calipers and skinned then around inside the neck . It varies from .407 to .410.

[John Boy]

Remove the decapper pin on the FL sizing die - run the round into the die to reduce the case diameter

[Kev18]

Remove the decapper pin on the FL sizing die - run the round into the die to reduce the case diameter

I did that already, gives me my taper crimp.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That cartridge looks like it could stand less of a crimp, but I think the interference begins just a shade further back than that would cause. While Winchester were probably quite good about chamber dimensions in these rifles, I suppose it isn't tight in the neck? I have Winchester drawings of 1912 and 1910 in front of me, which make the minimum chamber neck diameter .4283 at the rear and .4273 at the front, and the maximum cartridge neck .4278 at the rear.

Those are extremely close dimensions, offering .0005in. interference if there was no taper in brass thickness from rear to front, as was quite likely. If your brass is .008in. thick (which is what I think you mean, as typos like that happen to me all the time), it ought to be enough for the bullet diameters you mention.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Micrometer. If you have a digital caliper, that will be good enough for this job. But you might think about adding an economy model 1" micrometer to your tool set.


The caliper should be fine for this job, but it is a low pressure cartridge, and firing it may not entirely iron out the effect of the crimp. I would anneal the neck and go through a couple of cycles of using the sizing die and expander button. But any inaccuracy incurred that way isn't your present problem.. It would only make the brass seem thicker than it actually is.

The class act for this job is a tubing micrometer, which measures the thickness against a sort of spigot at right angles to the thimble.

For some lever-action cartridges an alternative to the mouth crimp may be a cannelure pressed into the case behind the bullet. But the bottle-necked 1886 rounds are a bit too short in the neck, and critical on cartridge overall length, to do this.

[Kev18]

The caliper should be fine for this job, but it is a low pressure cartridge, and firing it may not entirely iron out the effect of the crimp. I would anneal the neck and go through a couple of cycles of using the sizing die and expander button. But any inaccuracy incurred that way isn't your present problem.. It would only make the brass seem thicker than it actually is.

The class act for this job is a tubing micrometer, which measures the thickness against a sort of spigot at right angles to the thimble.

For some lever-action cartridges an alternative to the mouth crimp may be a cannelure pressed into the case behind the bullet. But the bottle-necked 1886 rounds are a bit too short in the neck, and critical on cartridge overall length, to do this.

I just taper crimped some. I reloaded about 20 an hour ago. And they all feed really nice. No friction in the chamber. Now I will need to make it as accurate as possible. Im guessing a beagled mold isnt the best. An actual .409 bullet mold will be better.

[garandsrus]

Did you adjust your seating die to not crimp the round? If so, can you post a picture of your current round, near the case mouth? It should look quite a bit different than your original picture.

[Kev18]

So I decided to post pictures of what the cartridge and the process in making them looks like:

Fired/ Untouched case.
https://i.imgur.com/HD0BSo5.jpg

Primed, and flared mouth
https://i.imgur.com/Ij7Cqzx.jpg

Bullets
https://i.imgur.com/O1bsA7z.jpg

Bullet in
https://i.imgur.com/Asc9YKB.jpg

Seated bullet NO CRIMP
https://i.imgur.com/kwCRpBj.jpg

Crimping set up. Sizing die with decapping pin removed.
https://i.imgur.com/M84CJV0.jpg

Taper crimped from the sizing die.
https://i.imgur.com/AYN7LcZ.jpg

Then I thought it would be a good idea to test if it fit in the chamber. So I opened the lever and fed it manually. closed the lever and opened it again.
https://i.imgur.com/ly4tQCd.jpg

Frustrated, I pulled the bullet out a bit, and tried recrimping it with the sizing die. I would only push it abit with my finger and it would fall back in. So stuck it in my reloading tool. I wanted to see if it was going to chamber with the light crimp it gives. Turns out it goes in with alittle force. Definetly not as good as the taper crimp. It sticks out of the chamber by alittle more than an 1/8th inch.
https://i.imgur.com/QU1fuHU.jpg

[Kev18]

So in conclusion, I wasnt allowed to post more then 10 images in one post. So here is my beagled mold on the reloading tool.
https://i.imgur.com/0lILgNB.jpg

And here on the left is my cartridge and on the right is an original round from Winchester.
https://i.imgur.com/SPARg1r.jpg

[garandsrus]

If you compare the final bullet to your first one, you have made a lot of progress! The loaded round looks a LOT better.

My guess is that you are not sizing the case enough so you will want to turn the sizing die in a little more and check another round. Move the ram to the top of the stroke then turn the sizing die in until it contacts the shell holder. This should be pretty close to what you want/need to hold the bullet with neck tension. The flair is larger than it needs to be also.

I would stick with the dies on your press and not use the reloading tool for loading operations. Should be higher precision and more repeatable. Someone can correct me if I am mistaken, but I don’t think the loading tool full length sizes the brass. Not sure how much it neck sizes, but apparently not enough if that’s what you used.

[Kev18]

If you compare the final bullet to your first one, you have made a lot of progress! The loaded round looks a LOT better.

My guess is that you are not sizing the case enough so you will want to turn the sizing die in a little more and check another round. Move the ram to the top of the stroke then turn the sizing die in until it contacts the shell holder. This should be pretty close to what you want/need to hold the bullet with neck tension. The flair is larger than it needs to be also.

I would stick with the dies on your press and not use the reloading tool for loading operations. Should be higher precision and more repeatable. Someone can correct me if I am mistaken, but I don’t think the loading tool full length sizes the brass. Not sure how much it neck sizes, but apparently not enough if that’s what you used.

No, the tool doesn't resize. But I find it more precise then the press . The tool is more consistent too I find but it doesn't work for my rifle. It also makes ammo the way it was 150 years ago . Too bad it doesn't taper crimp .

[country gent]

The one pic shows the case belled with a lot more bell than is actually needed. You only need enough for the bullet to enter and square up good. You may want to raise the stem a little. If the bullets can be pushed into the case by hand look at the expander stems dia in comparison o the bullets dia. A lot of new dies sets in 40 cal are set up for .410 -.411 bullets the expander should measure .002-.003 under bullet dia for good neck tension. Mist dies size the neck small and set size with the expander stem expanding it back up

[Kev18]

The one pic shows the case belled with a lot more bell than is actually needed. You only need enough for the bullet to enter and square up good. You may want to raise the stem a little. If the bullets can be pushed into the case by hand look at the expander stems dia in comparison o the bullets dia. A lot of new dies sets in 40 cal are set up for .410 -.411 bullets the expander should measure .002-.003 under bullet dia for good neck tension. Mist dies size the neck small and set size with the expander stem expanding it back up

Well I expand the mouth more then it needs to so I dont shave lead off. Thats what I have been told to do.

[garandsrus]

No, the tool doesn't resize. But I find it more precise then the press . The tool is more consistent too I find but it doesn't work for my rifle. It also makes ammo the way it was 150 years ago . Too bad it doesn't taper crimp .

I have a hard time believing that a loading tool can produce more consistent rounds than a modern press and set of dies.

If you look at your picture of "seated bullet, no crimp" you can see that quite a bit of the case bell has been removed so you have started to apply the taper crimp in the seating die. If you re-read the instructions in previous posts, you might be able to complete the crimp in the seating die and remove the sizing die as the final step.

Are you using your die set to expand the cases or the loading tool? What is the diameter of the expander you are using and what is the diameter of your sized bullets? As country gent said, the bell on the case mouth is a lot more than what you need. I set up my die so that a bullet just barely sits on the case without falling off. If it wants to fall off, bell a little more and check again. It doesn't take much and the bell is barely noticeable. You can have 1/3 to 1/2 the bell your picture shows and not have any lead shaving problems.

The bell is the biggest cause of case neck splits (excess expanding of the case) so people try to minimize the amount of bell. You have to have enough, but too much will just ruin cases pretty quickly and you won't get many reloads from them. You will know when the case is ruined by the crack in the case neck.

[Kev18]

I have a hard time believing that a loading tool can produce more consistent rounds than a modern press and set of dies.

If you look at your picture of "seated bullet, no crimp" you can see that quite a bit of the case bell has been removed so you have started to apply the taper crimp in the seating die. If you re-read the instructions in previous posts, you might be able to complete the crimp in the seating die and remove the sizing die as the final step.

Are you using your die set to expand the cases or the loading tool? What is the diameter of the expander you are using and what is the diameter of your sized bullets? As country gent said, the bell on the case mouth is a lot more than what you need. I set up my die so that a bullet just barely sits on the case without falling off. If it wants to fall off, bell a little more and check again. It doesn't take much and the bell is barely noticeable. You can have 1/3 to 1/2 the bell your picture shows and not have any lead shaving problems.

The bell is the biggest cause of case neck splits (excess expanding of the case) so people try to minimize the amount of bell. You have to have enough, but too much will just ruin cases pretty quickly and you won't get many reloads from them. You will know when the case is ruined by the crack in the case neck.

I said that about the loading tool because there are no adjustments like a set of dies.
I use the dies to flare the mouth open . And I haven't measured the expander plug, but il surely try to adjust it if it's to much. Id say I already reloaded those cases at least 8 times if not more .

[indian joe]

Kev
You are getting so much good advice here its all getting a bit confused
If you loaded a full case of black powder some problems would go away - If you are worried about fouling ? 5 grains of 4227 under the black will take care of that
1) That old mold makes a good boolit but it has no crimp groove - its a blackpowder mold - so in trying to crimp for smokeless so the boolit wont disappear down in the case you always run the risk of that little bulge at the casemouth that started all this - with a full charge of blackpowder - the boolit has a base to sit on and all it needs is a light crimp on the ogive just ahead of the last lube groove to stop it falling out of the case - a light taper crimp is enough = no case bulging, maybe it chambers ok - If Not - run it in the resizer die until it will chamber.
2) from your initial post it seems like the rifle needs that fatter boolit to shoot accurate
3) I believe you are right in not wanting to work your brass too much - I dont hardly ever full length resize anything - I dont neck size my blackpowder cases either unless they will not chamber - most dies reduce the neck diameter way too much and then expand it back = neck tension - ya dont need neck tension with blackpowder . Those old guys reloaded many many times with tong tools just like you have - if the round will chamber ok is all the sizing you need.
One thing I would pick on - the boolits in your picture are not lubed very well - lots of gaps in the lube grooves with no lube in there and then lube all over the place where it dont belong - that stray lube will clog up your dies in time and you get uneven seating depth - at the same time I believe that incompletely filled lube grooves takes away from accuracy. Pan lube em - use a cookie cutter - then store em carefully

[Kev18]

Kev
You are getting so much good advice here its all getting a bit confused
If you loaded a full case of black powder some problems would go away - If you are worried about fouling ? 5 grains of 4227 under the black will take care of that
1) That old mold makes a good boolit but it has no crimp groove - its a blackpowder mold - so in trying to crimp for smokeless so the boolit wont disappear down in the case you always run the risk of that little bulge at the casemouth that started all this - with a full charge of blackpowder - the boolit has a base to sit on and all it needs is a light crimp on the ogive just ahead of the last lube groove to stop it falling out of the case - a light taper crimp is enough = no case bulging, maybe it chambers ok - If Not - run it in the resizer die until it will chamber.
2) from your initial post it seems like the rifle needs that fatter boolit to shoot accurate
3) I believe you are right in not wanting to work your brass too much - I dont hardly ever full length resize anything - I dont neck size my blackpowder cases either unless they will not chamber - most dies reduce the neck diameter way too much and then expand it back = neck tension - ya dont need neck tension with blackpowder . Those old guys reloaded many many times with tong tools just like you have - if the round will chamber ok is all the sizing you need.
One thing I would pick on - the boolits in your picture are not lubed very well - lots of gaps in the lube grooves with no lube in there and then lube all over the place where it dont belong - that stray lube will clog up your dies in time and you get uneven seating depth - at the same time I believe that incompletely filled lube grooves takes away from accuracy. Pan lube em - use a cookie cutter - then store em carefully

Thanks, it is abit confusing . I have pyrodex and goex. True black powder is hard to find. I used to only reload with that but my bore isn't new. It has pits. I was told to not use black because it gets stuck in all the pits. And the cleaning process takes forever.
I would also like to know how to identify smokeless powder , i have no idea what all the numbers even mean. I thought you weren't supposed to mix smokeless and BP?

[upnorthwis]

The smokeless doesn't get "mixed" with the black. It is put in first then the black is put on top. Has to be filled at least up to the bullet base so it doesn't get mixed. A little compression is advisable.

[indian joe]

Thanks, it is abit confusing . I have pyrodex and goex. True black powder is hard to find. I used to only reload with that but my bore isn't new. It has pits. I was told to not use black because it gets stuck in all the pits. And the cleaning process takes forever.
I would also like to know how to identify smokeless powder , i have no idea what all the numbers even mean. I thought you weren't supposed to mix smokeless and BP?

Kev
I shoot lever guns with black powder regular - the cleaning process is so easy its kind of a joke - takes me all of five minutes. I made a wood cleaning cradle so I can rest the rifle in upside down and a flush bottle with a plastic spout (made from a small coke bottle) - cleaning rod with an appropriate sized jag and some flannelette patches. Cleaning a blackpowder gun is several orders of magnitude easier than cleaning a smokeless gun - major difference is you cant put the blackpowder gun away dirty - but the actual cleanup is a snap.
I have no idea on smokeless numbers meanings either - much of it goes back to military batching I think - each company has a different set of numbers - some go in sequence - some dont - as far as I can see there is not a system as such - and trying to learn to identify them visually could easily lead to a hospital attendance.
Only way to be sure with smokeless is buy a new can , keep it in the original container with the make and number on it .
Duplex loads - experimenting over many years has given anecdotal evidence that IMR 4227 does well as a duplex (starter) for blackpowder cartridges - common use is 3 grains in smaller cases (pistol calibre blackpowder rounds like 44/40) and 5 grains in larger rifle cases 45/70 etc - the smokeless is put in the empty case at the base - then without disturbing or mixing at all the case is filled with blackpowder and compressed as you would normally. Its not done for the purpose of increasing velocity only to ensure a cleaner burn and reduce fouling buildup from the blackpowder charge. It works really well for that purpose - there are a couple of others that work but IMR 4227 is the go to smokeless for duplex loading under black.

Switching to blackpowder is maybe a fix for some of the hassles you are having with oversized/ bulging cases - fat boolits or whatever it is - But I would think this could be cured by using the full length size die to just swage enough of the case to allow it to chamber - I have done that on more than one occasion with my 38/40 - 45/70 - and a 1876 Uberti - all three have very close chambers and allow no margin for error at all with reloaded ammo - I shoot cast boolits one or two thousands over size - brass is a little thick in the neck (starline 38/40 and the Uberti takes shortened, reformed 348 Brass) --- so I get what your problem is .....i would just love to get my hands on a decent condition 1886 in 40/82

[Kev18]

Kev
I shoot lever guns with black powder regular - the cleaning process is so easy its kind of a joke - takes me all of five minutes. I made a wood cleaning cradle so I can rest the rifle in upside down and a flush bottle with a plastic spout (made from a small coke bottle) - cleaning rod with an appropriate sized jag and some flannelette patches. Cleaning a blackpowder gun is several orders of magnitude easier than cleaning a smokeless gun - major difference is you cant put the blackpowder gun away dirty - but the actual cleanup is a snap.
I have no idea on smokeless numbers meanings either - much of it goes back to military batching I think - each company has a different set of numbers - some go in sequence - some dont - as far as I can see there is not a system as such - and trying to learn to identify them visually could easily lead to a hospital attendance.
Only way to be sure with smokeless is buy a new can , keep it in the original container with the make and number on it .
Duplex loads - experimenting over many years has given anecdotal evidence that IMR 4227 does well as a duplex (starter) for blackpowder cartridges - common use is 3 grains in smaller cases (pistol calibre blackpowder rounds like 44/40) and 5 grains in larger rifle cases 45/70 etc - the smokeless is put in the empty case at the base - then without disturbing or mixing at all the case is filled with blackpowder and compressed as you would normally. Its not done for the purpose of increasing velocity only to ensure a cleaner burn and reduce fouling buildup from the blackpowder charge. It works really well for that purpose - there are a couple of others that work but IMR 4227 is the go to smokeless for duplex loading under black.

Switching to blackpowder is maybe a fix for some of the hassles you are having with oversized/ bulging cases - fat boolits or whatever it is - But I would think this could be cured by using the full length size die to just swage enough of the case to allow it to chamber - I have done that on more than one occasion with my 38/40 - 45/70 - and a 1876 Uberti - all three have very close chambers and allow no margin for error at all with reloaded ammo - I shoot cast boolits one or two thousands over size - brass is a little thick in the neck (starline 38/40 and the Uberti takes shortened, reformed 348 Brass) --- so I get what your problem is .....i would just love to get my hands on a decent condition 1886 in 40/82

Thanks for all the info. Im doing all of this because I would like to go hunting this year for the first time. My grandpa said he might want to come too. He got a heart surgery years ago for a clogged artery so he cant really walk long distances or stay outside when Its really hot. He always says he misses hunting. He hunted his whole life, but now he's getting older, in the late 70's. He said he wants deer meat to put in the sausages he makes every year, but no one in the family is a good enough hunter to catch a big buck so he keeps saying he needs to get bnack out there again and show us how its done! ;)
Long story short, I want my 1886 to be as accurate as possible. So far I really appreciate all the help im getting. Thanks!

[Walks]

I use the same load of IMR 3031 in my 1886, made in 1889 too. But I have a smaller bore diameter then you do. I had my chamber polished bright & I spent MANY HOURS lapping my bore. Unfortunately that Gunsmith & CUSTOM Caster have both passed on. With their guidance I managed to master my RIFLE.

The RIFLE TAPER CRIMP DIES are no longer cataloged by LYMAN.

I took the 80 .45-90 starline I hadn't used and sold them to a guy that had a 1886 in .45-90. Interesting enough PMC made a run of .45-90 in the mid 1990's. He had trouble with thick case necks. But you could get a set-up to ream .45cal Rifle necks for a reasonable price, at least back then.

I wish I could could offer any kind of worth while help, sorry.

[Kev18]

I use the same load of IMR 3031 in my 1886, made in 1889 too. But I have a smaller bore diameter then you do. I had my chamber polished bright & I spent MANY HOURS lapping my bore. Unfortunately that Gunsmith & CUSTOM Caster have both passed on. With their guidance I managed to master my RIFLE.

The RIFLE TAPER CRIMP DIES are no longer cataloged by LYMAN.

I took the 80 .45-90 starline I hadn't used and sold them to a guy that had a 1886 in .45-90. Interesting enough PMC made a run of .45-90 in the mid 1990's. He had trouble with thick case necks. But you could get a set-up to ream .45cal Rifle necks for a reasonable price, at least back then.

I wish I could could offer any kind of worth while help, sorry.

How did you improve the bore? Mine is pretty pitted.

[Walks]

I used J-B Bore Cleaner. I twisted some four ought (0000) steel wool around a .40cal fiber brush & coated it with the J-B. Ten passes & pull off the old steel wool & replace it with fresh & more J-B. Between passes I ran 3 patches soaked in KROIL OIL. I wore out 9 brushes & 4 pads of steel wool. Almost a full jar of J-B & 2 cans of KROIL OIL. I stopped counting the passes with the brush about 2000. That RIFLE sat on my bench for 3 months. Ten passes before work, twenty passes after dinner, twenty passes before bed. It has some bright spots, but it's mainly dark & there are still some pits. After about 20rds accuracy starts to fall off. I clean the same way but with the newer J-B BORE BRITE. Not as abrasive.

I wouldn't even think about a project like that today. Did this all before I got busted up. And I don't know of any Competent Gunsmiths in my area that will work on old rifle. Got a GREAT handgun only Smith.

[Kev18]

I used J-B Bore Cleaner. I twisted some four ought (0000) steel wool around a .40cal fiber brush & coated it with the J-B. Ten passes & pull off the old steel wool & replace it with fresh & more J-B. Between passes I ran 3 patches soaked in KROIL OIL. I wore out 9 brushes & 4 pads of steel wool. Almost a full jar of J-B & 2 cans of KROIL OIL. I stopped counting the passes with the brush about 2000. That RIFLE sat on my bench for 3 months. Ten passes before work, twenty passes after dinner, twenty passes before bed. It has some bright spots, but it's mainly dark & there are still some pits. After about 20rds accuracy starts to fall off. I clean the same way but with the newer J-B BORE BRITE. Not as abrasive.

I wouldn't even think about a project like that today. Did this all before I got busted up. And I don't know of any Competent Gunsmiths in my area that will work on old rifle. Got a GREAT handgun only Smith.

That didnt damage or dull out the rifling? I Imagine it would be like buffing compound to polish metal?

[indian joe]

That didnt damage or dull out the rifling? I Imagine it would be like buffing compound to polish metal?

Kev
I have done similar to what Walks describes - took an old brass brush and wrapped steel wool around as tight as I could get it in the bore - soaked it in "Brasso" ----another time I used jewellers rouge on the steel wool - didnt take as many passes as Walks - maybe two sessions of half an hour going at it as hard as I could. They come up mirror shiny even with the deeper pitting in there still.

[rockrat]

Another thing you might try, is to not seat your boolit so deep and try a regular roll crimp in the top of the top grease groove. Not seating the boolit so deep might help with the case bulge too.

[Kev18]

Another thing you might try, is to not seat your boolit so deep and try a regular roll crimp in the top of the top grease groove. Not seating the boolit so deep might help with the case bulge too.

Already tried that, dosent seem to work to well. I feel like the tip of the bullet tries to enter the rifling.

[Kev18]

Ok, so I also tried something new when I got home from work. I reloaded 18 rounds with the boolits in the pictures I posted. And today, I beagled my mold more. Added more aluminium tape, did two test boolits and they dropped at around .413 and .415. I ran them through a .410 resizer and reloaded cartridges. They still chambered fine. So il reload a good number of those and test out the difference of accuracy.

[Walks]

Kev,
My bore had the raised part of the pits ground down, it also rounded the edges of the lands a tiny bit. I'm not really sure about that because it was hard to tell the lands from the grooves when I started.
Now I will keep the first 3rds into 3" at 100yds from the bench. And I can hit a 12" gong off hand at 100yds 4 out of 5 times for the first 15-20 shot's. After that It's cleaning time.
Good Luck.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I know there are a lot of guys on here that don't like the Lee Factory Crimp die but I would give it a try. I don't use it on all the calibers I have but it is convenient at times and it won't bulge the case. They are very reasonably priced. From looking at your picture it looks to me like the boolit is pushed up to tight when the crimp is applied and bulging the case. Like others have said size your boolits a little smaller. You probably won't see much difference in accuracy .

[Kev18]

I know there are a lot of guys on here that don't like the Lee Factory Crimp die but I would give it a try. I don't use it on all the calibers I have but it is convenient at times and it won't bulge the case. They are very reasonably priced. From looking at your picture it looks to me like the boolit is pushed up to tight when the crimp is applied and bulging the case. Like others have said size your boolits a little smaller. You probably won't see much difference in accuracy .

I cant size my bullets smaller. I actually just made a big batch of larger boolits. Im hopefully going to go test it out tomorrow. Big boolit, taper crimp, no problem.. so far.

[Geobru]

Kev,
You are where I was in 2008. My 40-82 was made in 1887 and the bore is a .409 just as yours is. I went through the .406 cast bullets keyholing at 50 yards and .406 Jacketed bullets shooting a 4-5" group at 50 yards. I spent two years testing different things until I finally figured this puzzle out.


The problem is the Starline brass plus the bullet is too big for the chamber. PERIOD! If you measure a loaded cartridge without doing anything other than what you originally did, ie. resize and trim the 45-90 brass to 40-82, expand the brass, load powder, insert a .410 bullet and run it through the crimp die, the diameter of the brass and bullet will be about .432-.434 if my memory serves me correctly. The maximum diameter that will go into my 40-82 chamber is .430. I'll go out on a limb and say that yours will be about that size too.


There are two options to solve this as have been discussed earlier in this thread. Neck reaming and neck turning. Reaming requires a reamer sized for this particular application to remove brass from the inside of the case. I don't know what that measurement is because I didn't try it due to cost. To turn the outside of the case, there is a Forester outside neck turning tool you can buy for around $70, or a lock and load neck turning tool for $110, or you can buy a Lee three jaw chuck for $14 and get the spinner for another $4 and a bastard file for $5 and turn the cases down with this setup in your electric drill.


I opted for the latter. The three jaw chuck securely holds the LOADED cartridge while you turn it in the drill and use the file to carefully turn the brass down to .429 to .430. You only have to take brass off where the bullet is.

I test each turned cartridge in my rifle to make sure that it chambers correctly. If its a little tight, I take off another thousandth. You do this one time and the cases will chamber for many reloadings. Sometimes the brass flows a bit and you will have to touch up cases that get too thick again. I have gotten up to 16 reloads out of one case so far. After 10 reloads, I recommend that you anneal the cases because the brass that is crimped will harden and break off after 14 loads or so. This pic is of my reloads with two types of .410 bullets that I have used. The cases have been turned.

223908

I switched to a tang sight too. To use a peep sight, look through the hole in the rear sight and put the top of the front sight where you want to hit. You will see the whole front sight when you look through the sight, but your eye will automatically center the top of that sight in the middle of the peep because that is where the image is brightest and most clear. Trust your eyes!


The only other thing that I'll say is that you will want to use some type of filler on top of the smokeless powder. I use coarsely ground corn meal, other materials used are cream of wheat, kapok and TP. Use whatever your gun prefers. The additional length of the 40-82 case over the 45-70 and 40-65 is just enough to allow the powder to flatten out and get uneven ignition without the fillers, which really screws accuracy.

Keep your velocity around 1500 fps to mimic black powder load pressures. My preferred powders are 5744 and Reloader 7. (Per the manufacturer, 5744 isn't supposed to need fillers, but accuracy is greatly improved with the use of fillers in the 40-82.) This is a pic of a load with and without filler. Shot at 85 yards with a load of 5744. The hole in the lower right was a flyer from a different target.

223907

The 40-82 is the most difficult round to reload with smokeless that I have run across. I can attest that the methods I described here will solve your issues with this round. Once you get used to the tang sight, you should have a great rifle to hunt with.


This is a 100 yard target I shot with my rifle. It is equipped with a Marbles tang sight and the group was shot using a Lead Sled. The upper 5 shots measure 1.26" but it measures 2.5" with the flyer. I never dreamed that I would ever get that kind of accuracy out of this old rifle when I started out in 2008!

Enjoy the journey!


223899

[Kev18]

Kev,
You are where I was in 2008. My 40-82 was made in 1887 and the bore is a .409 just as yours is. I went through the .406 cast bullets keyholing at 50 yards and .406 Jacketed bullets shooting a 4-5" group at 50 yards. I spent two years testing different things until I finally figured this puzzle out.


The problem is the Starline brass plus the bullet is too big for the chamber. PERIOD! If you measure a loaded cartridge without doing anything other than what you originally did, ie. resize and trim the 45-90 brass to 40-82, expand the brass, load powder, insert a .410 bullet and run it through the crimp die, the diameter of the brass and bullet will be about .432-.434 if my memory serves me correctly. The maximum diameter that will go into my 40-82 chamber is .430. I'll go out on a limb and say that yours will be about that size too.


There are two options to solve this as have been discussed earlier in this thread. Neck reaming and neck turning. Reaming requires a reamer sized for this particular application to remove brass from the inside of the case. I don't know what that measurement is because I didn't try it due to cost. To turn the outside of the case, there is a Forester outside neck turning tool you can buy for around $70, or a lock and load neck turning tool for $110, or you can buy a Lee three jaw chuck for $14 and get the spinner for another $4 and a bastard file for $5 and turn the cases down with this setup in your electric drill.


I opted for the latter. The three jaw chuck securely holds the LOADED cartridge while you turn it in the drill and use the file to carefully turn the brass down to .429 to .430. You only have to take brass off where the bullet is.

I test each turned cartridge in my rifle to make sure that it chambers correctly. If its a little tight, I take off another thousandth. You do this one time and the cases will chamber for many reloadings. Sometimes the brass flows a bit and you will have to touch up cases that get too thick again. I have gotten up to 16 reloads out of one case so far. After 10 reloads, I recommend that you anneal the cases because the brass that is crimped will harden and break off after 14 loads or so. This pic is of my reloads with two types of .410 bullets that I have used. The cases have been turned.

223908

I switched to a tang sight too. To use a peep sight, look through the hole in the rear sight and put the top of the front sight where you want to hit. You will see the whole front sight when you look through the sight, but your eye will automatically center the top of that sight in the middle of the peep because that is where the image is brightest and most clear. Trust your eyes!


The only other thing that I'll say is that you will want to use some type of filler on top of the smokeless powder. I use coarsely ground corn meal, other materials used are cream of wheat, kapok and TP. Use whatever your gun prefers. The additional length of the 40-82 case over the 45-70 and 40-65 is just enough to allow the powder to flatten out and get uneven ignition without the fillers, which really screws accuracy.

Keep your velocity around 1500 fps to mimic black powder load pressures. My preferred powders are 5744 and Reloader 7. (Per the manufacturer, 5744 isn't supposed to need fillers, but accuracy is greatly improved with the use of fillers in the 40-82.) This is a pic of a load with and without filler. Shot at 85 yards with a load of 5744. The hole in the lower right was a flyer from a different target.

223907

The 40-82 is the most difficult round to reload with smokeless that I have run across. I can attest that the methods I described here will solve your issues with this round. Once you get used to the tang sight, you should have a great rifle to hunt with.


This is a 100 yard target I shot with my rifle. It is equipped with a Marbles tang sight and the group was shot using a Lead Sled. The upper 5 shots measure 1.26" but it measures 2.5" with the flyer. I never dreamed that I would ever get that kind of accuracy out of this old rifle when I started out in 2008!

Enjoy the journey!


223899

Hey, im pretty sure you sent me alot of data on 40-82 last year I think? im not sure if you'll see this but I tried sending you a pm but I had trouble sending it.Il definitely try some of the stuff you suggested. thanks!

[Geobru]

Hey, im pretty sure you sent me alot of data on 40-82 last year I think? im not sure if you'll see this but I tried sending you a pm but I had trouble sending it.Il definitely try some of the stuff you suggested. thanks!


Yea that was me.

Out of curiosity, what is the outside diameter of your cartridges over the base of the bullet?

[Kev18]

Yea that was me.

Out of curiosity, what is the outside diameter of your cartridges over the base of the bullet?

.425 is my biggest diameter in the neck. I use starline brass, 3031,pillow material or my dogs fur rolled up in a ball as a filler, with cast bullets in a beagled mold.What bullets did you use in your loads? Did you cast them yourself or buy them?

[Kev18]

A little unrelated to the thread but anyone know what the original sight was on 1886's? What type of rear sight did they come out of the factory with. I put a peep on mine and added the sight that was with the rifle at the time of purchase.I read the standard models came out with buckhorns (semi buckhorns?) and that the other models/custom orders had different sights added, like peep or ladder? Hers a pic of what I have now.
https://i.imgur.com/WJMityz.jpg

[Geobru]

.425 is my biggest diameter in the neck. I use starline brass, 3031,pillow material or my dogs fur rolled up in a ball as a filler, with cast bullets in a beagled mold.What bullets did you use in your loads? Did you cast them yourself or buy them?

Is this .425 after you ran the loaded round in the sizing die to reduce the diameter?

I bought bullets from Bullshop on line. I'm set up for casting my own now, but have some more to use first.

[Geobru]

A little unrelated to the thread but anyone know what the original sight was on 1886's? What type of rear sight did they come out of the factory with. I put a peep on mine and added the sight that was with the rifle at the time of purchase.I read the standard models came out with buckhorns (semi buckhorns?) and that the other models/custom orders had different sights added, like peep or ladder? Hers a pic of what I have now.
https://i.imgur.com/WJMityz.jpg


There were quite a few options. I don't have a sight book, but my gun has a semi buckhorn sight with the serrations on the ears. There also was a ladder sight like yours that was stamped 1886 that I have seen.

[Kev18]

Is this .425 after you ran the loaded round in the sizing die to reduce the diameter?

I bought bullets from Bullshop on line. I'm set up for casting my own now, but have some more to use first.

Yes I ran it through the sizing die. I cant reload unsized cases, the bullet falls down the case. I need to resize the neck every time. If I remember correctly, a fired case is .434

[bigted]

Kev, use the drill/file to reduce your loaded case necks INSTEAD of running them back in the size die. May be what is happening is by re running them up the size die is you are inadvertantly sizing your .410 back to too small of a boolit by doing so. I would recomend taking not more then 6 or 7 cases to turn down the neck area with your file and drill. These will tell you if this will result in useable functioning accurate rounds.

Also that rear sight looks very familiar. My Sharps has an identical sight except mine is a full buckhorn. I like mine a lot. I use it with a higher blade on the front. In this manner i use the rear as a barrel mounted peep sight with the full buck horn ears. When i require further range i hold the blade top directly between the ears of the rear and this allows a fast 150 yard direct hold. It is fun to use the ladder to lob in the further shots and surprising how good it works.

[BK7saum]

Yes I ran it through the sizing die. I cant reload unsized cases, the bullet falls down the case. I need to resize the neck every time. If I remember correctly, a fired case is .434

STOP. Dont thin the necks yet. IF A BOOLIT DROPS INTO A FIRED CASE, YOU DO NOT HAVE A TIGHT NECK CHAMBER. Size and expand a case...dies it chamber? Seat a boolit with no crimp...then in small increments turn the seater die in with expander backed out until the crimp is just removed...will it chamber.

I still believe that your problem was overcrimping causing the case to bulge/buckle. I think if you set up your seater correctly, your problem will go away.

[indian joe]

STOP. Dont thin the necks yet. IF A BOOLIT DROPS INTO A FIRED CASE, YOU DO NOT HAVE A TIGHT NECK CHAMBER. Size and expand a case...dies it chamber? Seat a boolit with no crimp...then in small increments turn the seater die in with expander backed out until the crimp is just removed...will it chamber.

I still believe that your problem was overcrimping causing the case to bulge/buckle. I think if you set up your seater correctly, your problem will go away.

This reply makes a lot of sense - I believe you got it !

[Kev18]

STOP. Dont thin the necks yet. IF A BOOLIT DROPS INTO A FIRED CASE, YOU DO NOT HAVE A TIGHT NECK CHAMBER. Size and expand a case...dies it chamber? Seat a boolit with no crimp...then in small increments turn the seater die in with expander backed out until the crimp is just removed...will it chamber.

I still believe that your problem was overcrimping causing the case to bulge/buckle. I think if you set up your seater correctly, your problem will go away.

What do you mean expand a case? Flare the mouth? If I drop a fired case in the chamber it will go in. I know why issue was that I over crimped. Even if I resized the case, seated the bullet with a light crimp it still has a chance of falling in the case, not with the recoil, but when I feed the rounds through the loading gate. The bullets get pushed back in.

[BK7saum]

I apologize as I cant remember your setup for loading.

In regard to your previous post, tube fed rifles dont necessarily need ammo heavily crimped to keep boolits from setting back. Sufficient neck tension (brass inner diameter 0.001-0.002" less than boolit diameter) is plenty to hold boolits firmly. For tube fed rifles, neck tension plus a light crimp is plenty to keep the boolit from setting back under spring tension.


Do you have a full length sizing die set? Assuming you do, screw the sizing/decapping die into your press until it touches the shell holder. Then size the case and decap the fired primer.

We dont need to prime or add powder, lets just load a dummy round.

At this point the case is resized, a boolit should not enter the case mouth due to the "sizing down" of the case. If a boolit will enter the case after it has been sized, we need to address that problem.

Now we need to expand the case mouth. I use an expander with a lower sectioned that is 0.001-0.002" smaller in diameter than the boolit I want to shoot. The expander has a section near the top with a flare and larger step that is 0.002-0.003 larger than my boolit diameter. When I "expand" the case neck, I adjust the expander so that the larger step enters the case mouth by 0.020" or so. That way the "flare" allows me to seat a boolit without shaving lead.

To go over what we've set up so far...you have to size the case so that the ID is 0.002-0.010" less than boolit diameter. This gives neck tension to firmly hold the boolit. If too small, we have to expand and flare the case so we can seat a boolit without shaving lead.

As long as the expander is less than boolit diameter, the case will have enough grip on the boolit that a crimp may not be necessary.

You should have some sort of flaring die or expanding die with your die set.

Now that we have a sized case that we have neck expanded and flared to accept a boolit, let's seat a boolit with no crimp. Back your seating die out 2-3 turns from your normal setting. Then start your case and boolit into the die. Adjust the seating plug downward, but not the die body until you get the desired boolit seating depth. Check to see if it will chamber. It may or the "flare" might bind up if excessive.

Now let's remove the "flare" on the case mouth. Back out the boolit seating stem a lot. We don't want it to contact the boolit at all in this step. With the dummy cartridge in the shellholder and the press ram raised to the top, screw the die body down until it contacts the dummy cartridge. Make sure the seating stem isnt making contact, only the die body. Now, screw the die body down 1/8 turn. Remove the dummy and check the flare/crimp with caliper and looking at it. If the flare hasn't been removed or a sufficient crimp achieved, screw the die body down another 1/8 turn and keep checking. Once the flare is removed, your dummy cartridge will chamber.

By making and keeping a dummy cartridge, you can set up your die easily so that you can seat a boolit in one operation and crimp in a second operation.

This crimping and seating in separate steps works really well when the boolit used doesn't have a crimp groove.

Without a crimp groove, during seating, the brass case mouth digs into the boolit and as the case is crimped further, the brass case mouth is pushed down with the boolit. The brass has to go somewhere, so it bulges the case outward below the case mouth (exactly what has happened to your cartridges previously).

I am typing this on a smart phone, so please forgive the typos.

Setting up the dummy cartridge and seating without crimping, then crimping in a separate step will solve the bulged case issue.

If you still have questions, we can address them individually.

I don't know anyone who hasn't overcrimped a case and bulged the neck or shoulder starting out as a newbie. Been there myself. Well get you going. Just be patient.

[Walks]

BK7saum,
That was a very good set of step by step instructions.

[Kev18]

I apologize as I cant remember your setup for loading.

In regard to your previous post, tube fed rifles dont necessarily need ammo heavily crimped to keep boolits from setting back. Sufficient neck tension (brass inner diameter 0.001-0.002" less than boolit diameter) is plenty to hold boolits firmly. For tube fed rifles, neck tension plus a light crimp is plenty to keep the boolit from setting back under spring tension.


Do you have a full length sizing die set? Assuming you do, screw the sizing/decapping die into your press until it touches the shell holder. Then size the case and decap the fired primer.

We dont need to prime or add powder, lets just load a dummy round.

At this point the case is resized, a boolit should not enter the case mouth due to the "sizing down" of the case. If a boolit will enter the case after it has been sized, we need to address that problem.

Now we need to expand the case mouth. I use an expander with a lower sectioned that is 0.001-0.002" smaller in diameter than the boolit I want to shoot. The expander has a section near the top with a flare and larger step that is 0.002-0.003 larger than my boolit diameter. When I "expand" the case neck, I adjust the expander so that the larger step enters the case mouth by 0.020" or so. That way the "flare" allows me to seat a boolit without shaving lead.

To go over what we've set up so far...you have to size the case so that the ID is 0.002-0.010" less than boolit diameter. This gives neck tension to firmly hold the boolit. If too small, we have to expand and flare the case so we can seat a boolit without shaving lead.

As long as the expander is less than boolit diameter, the case will have enough grip on the boolit that a crimp may not be necessary.

You should have some sort of flaring die or expanding die with your die set.

Now that we have a sized case that we have neck expanded and flared to accept a boolit, let's seat a boolit with no crimp. Back your seating die out 2-3 turns from your normal setting. Then start your case and boolit into the die. Adjust the seating plug downward, but not the die body until you get the desired boolit seating depth. Check to see if it will chamber. It may or the "flare" might bind up if excessive.

Now let's remove the "flare" on the case mouth. Back out the boolit seating stem a lot. We don't want it to contact the boolit at all in this step. With the dummy cartridge in the shellholder and the press ram raised to the top, screw the die body down until it contacts the dummy cartridge. Make sure the seating stem isnt making contact, only the die body. Now, screw the die body down 1/8 turn. Remove the dummy and check the flare/crimp with caliper and looking at it. If the flare has been removed or a sufficient crimp achieved, screw the die body down another 1/8 turn and keep checking. Once the flare is removed, your dummy cartridge will chamber.

By making and keeping a dummy cartridge, you can set up your die easily so that you can seat a boolit in one operation and crimp in a second operation.

This crimping and seating in separate steps works really well when the boolit used doesn't have a crimp groove.

Without a crimp groove, during seating, the brass case mouth digs into the boolit and as the case is crimped further, the brass case mouth is pushed down with the boolit. The brass has to go somewhere, so it bulges the case outward below the case mouth (exactly what has happened to your cartridges previously).

I am typing this on a smart phone, so please forgive the typos.

Setting up the dummy cartridge and seating without crimping, then crimping in a separate step will solve the bulged case issue.

If you still have questions, we can address them individually.

I don't know anyone who hasn't overcrimped a case and bulged the neck or shoulder starting out as a newbie. Been there myself. Well get you going. Just be patient.

Thanks for all the info. Il give it a try tomorrow! You aren't the firs tone to mention my expander plug in the die set. Someone told me to measure the diameter of it. If its to large, it could open up the neck again and that could cause the boolits to drop back in the case. Il take calipers and measure it tomorrow. Its 1am for me now, I need sleep. :)

[BK7saum]

One other thing. I noticed that you are not fully resizing the cases because someone said it will shorten case life. While excessive sizing can, you still have to size the case enough to reduce the ID of the brass to at least 0.002" under boolit diameter.

Once we have a dummy round created, we can get your sizing operation set to size the case just enough so the the expander of a proper diameter has light resistance entering the case.

[garandsrus]

What do you mean expand a case? Flare the mouth? If I drop a fired case in the chamber it will go in. I know why issue was that I over crimped. Even if I resized the case, seated the bullet with a light crimp it still has a chance of falling in the case, not with the recoil, but when I feed the rounds through the loading gate. The bullets get pushed back in.

Kev - BK7saum said "then in small increments turn the seater die in with expander backed out until the crimp is just removed...will it chamber. " What he meant was: "then in small increments turn the seater die in with the seating stem backed out until the crimp is just removed...will it chamber."

The expander is not part of the seating die and is used before you seat the bullet, which might have added to your confusion.

There are several things you were going to check or were asked to check. Can you post the results?
1. What is the diameter of your bullet now?
2. Will the bullet drop into a fired but not resized case?
3. What is the diameter of your expanding plug?
4. Have you checked the adjustment on your sizing die?
5. Can you push a bullet into the sized case, but not expanded, just by pushing on it with your fingers?
6. Can you push a bullet into the sized and expanded case just by pushing on it with your fingers? This might be a new one, but is related to 1 and 3.

[BK7saum]

Garandsrus,

Thanks for the catch. Yes I meant seating stem, not expander. Sorry for the confusion.

[Kev18]

Kev - BK7saum said "then in small increments turn the seater die in with expander backed out until the crimp is just removed...will it chamber. " What he meant was: "then in small increments turn the seater die in with the seating stem backed out until the crimp is just removed...will it chamber."

The expander is not part of the seating die and is used before you seat the bullet, which might have added to your confusion.

There are several things you were going to check or were asked to check. Can you post the results?
1. What is the diameter of your bullet now?
2. Will the bullet drop into a fired but not resized case?
3. What is the diameter of your expanding plug?
4. Have you checked the adjustment on your sizing die?
5. Can you push a bullet into the sized case, but not expanded, just by pushing on it with your fingers?
6. Can you push a bullet into the sized and expanded case just by pushing on it with your fingers? This might be a new one, but is related to 1 and 3.

1. They drop out of the beagled mold at .415. I resize them to .410.
2. the bullets will not drop in the case, unless i push them with my finger. Gently. just the spring tension in the mag tube pushes them back in, and its a pretty weak spring.
3. Its .402 and the step where it flares out is .415
4. no.
5. I cant. The bullet does not fit.
6. i might. If i tried hard. Never tried it before.

[garandsrus]

Kev,

For #6, If you can’t push a bullet in with your fingers with reasonable pressure, the magazine spring shouldn’t be able to either.

How deep do you flair the case to .415? It should be less than 1/8”. Basically just enough to set the bullet on the case. You may be inserting the expander too deeply in the case, losing your neck tension.

With the other measurements and answers you provided, the case tension should be fine for holding the bullet with or without a crimp.

[indian joe]

Kev,

For #6, If you can’t push a bullet in with your fingers with reasonable pressure, the magazine spring shouldn’t be able to either.

How deep do you flair the case to .415? It should be less than 1/8”. Basically just enough to set the bullet on the case. You may be inserting the expander too deeply in the case, losing your neck tension.

With the other measurements and answers you provided, the case tension should be fine for holding the bullet with or without a crimp.

I wouldnt bet the farm on that working ! need to add recoil to the equation also the impact of the column of rounds in the magazine when the cutoff releases one - ther is a distinct kerlunk there - for one reason or another boolits with no crimp groove are a failure more times than they work in tube magazines with smokeless powder -frustrating and dangerous when a case swallows the projectile .

[BK7saum]

1. They drop out of the beagled mold at .415. I resize them to .410.
2. the bullets will not drop in the case, unless i push them with my finger. Gently. just the spring tension in the mag tube pushes them back in, and its a pretty weak spring.
3. Its .402 and the step where it flares out is .415
4. no.
5. I cant. The bullet does not fit.
6. i might. If i tried hard. Never tried it before.

When you expand, the .402 section is your expander (ideally with .410 boolits you'd want a .409 or .408), the 0.415" step is for flaring the case mouth. The boolits should not be able to be pushed in by finger pressure at all after sizing or after expanding.

It is the boolits job to expand the case up from 0.402" (ideally 0.408 or 0.409) to hold the boolit. The 0.415 step is just to open the case neck 1/16" +/- to aid in starting the boolit into the case and to keep from cutting or shaving lead from the boolit. If you were using a soft alloy, your boolit may be swaged or squeezed down from 0.410 to a slightly smaller diameter. That is where a harder alloy or an expander of 0.410, or 0.409 would be a huge benefit.

If you can push boolits into the case after expanding, but not after sizing, and your expander is 0.402 with a 0.415 flare step, something is up and we need to figure it out.

[Kev18]

I can't push the bullets in with my fingers. And I barely flare the mouth. They chamber fine. Now my only concern will be accuracy. I should go shooting this weekend hopefully.

[BK7saum]

Congrats, diagnosing problems with loading ammo is all about breaking it down into steps and determining where the issue is. Kinda like a big puzzle. You have to know what should take place at each step and be able to measure or determine when its not correct. Next time something comes up, you'll be well on your way to figuring it out. Good job.

[garandsrus]

I can't push the bullets in with my fingers. And I barely flare the mouth. They chamber fine. Now my only concern will be accuracy. I should go shooting this weekend hopefully.

Are you saying that you can now use the magazine without the spring pushing the bullet in the case? If so, what are you doing differently? Sizing more, expanding less, or both?

[Geobru]

Might want to consider spending the money to get the right expander for your rifle. You can order it for under $20 with the shipping IIRC.

[uscra112]

Might want to consider spending the money to get the right expander for your rifle. You can order it for under $20 with the shipping IIRC.

Unfortunately, therein lies a problem. Die makers, even Lyman for their M dies, do not offer anything like an adequate range of expander sizes. Which is why I had to take to making my own, as I posted earlier. Needs a lathe, (even a very small benchtop will do). Buy lengths of 9/16-18 threaded rod (McMaster-Carr #98957A407) and have at it. (9/16-18 is the internal thread in the M-die body. My plugs replace the Lyman adjuster screw and the separate screw-in expander with a single piece. Lots easier to make that way.) Believe it or not, I have three different expanders just for the .38 Special, because brass temper affects the springback and hence the final size. I pick the one that gets me the best fit for the batch of brass I'm using for my wadcutter target loads. It DOES make a difference.

[Kev18]

I went shooting for a bit last weekend. It wasnt so much of an accuracy test. I just usually shoot off hand. Id need to get a table in the backyard with a sand bag or something, but anyways... Some bullets dropped in the cases still. Only about 3 in 30 though. And maybe one or two hard to chamber but thats probably because I didnt crimp/resize the neck enough. Pretty succesful. Next time I need to see what the accuracy is like.

[Kev18]

I made 27 rounds. Went shooting again. Maybe I didnt make the round properly but I was having serious accuracy issues. At about 15 ft from the target hole in hole accuracy. I moved back maybe 35 ft. Still grouping just off center. And at about 100ft or more. Dont even bother.
Are my sights bad? The barrel to hot?
I took large rifle primers, 34 grains of 3031, added some of my dog's fur as a filler. Instead of dacron. I thought it would work. And topped it off with a 260gr beagled bullet as mentioned somewhere above, and that was covered in Lee liquid Alox. My issue here is that I didnt lube them, I usually take Tc bore butter but I didnt add any.
Why is it shooting bad?
Should I add a 40 cal fiber wad to help as amakeshift gas check underneath?

[Texas by God]

Sell that gun. I mean my gosh even hair of the dog didn't help!

[uscra112]

You didn't lube them??? Your barrel is now so badly leaded that it will take a week to clean.

Liquid Alox is for low pressure pistol rounds to be shot through short barrels.

Bore Butter is for cloth patched muzzleloaders, although it does work OK in my Old Army when I keep the load mild and shoot only 1 or 2 cylinders.

[Kev18]

Sell that gun. I mean my gosh even hair of the dog didn't help!

I know. What's good filler that I could use. I have dacron, but I'd like something more consistent. I think people said cornmeal, but wouldn't that compress the powder?

[Kev18]

You didn't lube them??? Your barrel is now so badly leaded that it will take a week to clean.

Liquid Alox is for low pressure pistol rounds to be shot through short barrels.

Bore Butter is for cloth patched muzzleloaders, although it does work OK in my Old Army when I keep the load mild and shoot only 1 or 2 cylinders.

Naah,its fine. I passed a bore snake in between shots nearing the end. It looks pretty good. I'd like to make my own lube but people say to use beeswax with some type of oil. Beeswax is really expensive... I have alot of melted candle wax, but I read that it can cause issues with scented candles, and the different types of wax used.

[uscra112]

I know. What's good filler that I could use. I have dacron, but I'd like something more consistent. I think people said cornmeal, but wouldn't that compress the powder?

With that load you should not be using any fillers at all! Stop it!

[uscra112]

Naah,its fine. I passed a bore snake in between shots nearing the end. It looks pretty good. I'd like to make my own lube but people say to use beeswax with some type of oil. Beeswax is really expensive... I have alot of melted candle wax, but I read that it can cause issues with scented candles, and the different types of wax used.

You can buy excellent pre-mixed lubes for just a few $$. I use White Label 2500 a lot, but for your application the old NRA 50-50 formula will do nicely.

http://www.lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1

A couple of solid sticks will cost you less than a cup of Starbucks.

Learn to pan lube. Or just soften the stuff in hot water and fill your lube grooves with your fingers.

Paraffin wax is a poor bullet lube, although it IS used to harden up mixtures which are too soft. Forget it for now.

Pulling a bore snake through will not tell you whether your bore is leaded. Nor will a quick eyeball. You will need a bore brush wrapped with fine steel wool.

Has that gun ever been fired with jacketed bullets? If so, the deposited copper must be completely removed. Copper will grab lead like nobody's business. Until that bore is squeaky clean, free of all metal fouling, you are just chasing your tail.

[Kev18]

With that load you should not be using any fillers at all! Stop it!

I dont really have a choice. I have made alot of threads in the past and everyone uses fillers for 40-82. The powder dosent even fill the case half way. The case is to long. So the powder dosent even burn. I've tried it.

[Kev18]

You can buy excellent pre-mixed lubes for just a few $$. I use White Label 2500 a lot, but for your application the old NRA 50-50 formula will do nicely.

http://www.lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1

A couple of solid sticks will cost you less than a cup of Starbucks.

Learn to pan lube. Or just soften the stuff in hot water and fill your lube grooves with your fingers.

Paraffin wax is a poor bullet lube, although it IS used to harden up mixtures which are too soft. Forget it for now.

Pulling a bore snake through will not tell you whether your bore is leaded. Nor will a quick eyeball. You will need a bore brush wrapped with fine steel wool.

Has that gun ever been fired with jacketed bullets? If so, the deposited copper must be completely removed. Copper will grab lead like nobody's business. Until that bore is squeaky clean, free of all metal fouling, you are just chasing your tail.

Never been fired with jackets as far as I know, not from me atleast. And il definitely get lube when I get home. Is there any product that helps with removing lead or is it just a standard brush? I think I have solvent that says it helps with copper and lead but do those things even work?

[uscra112]

The only thing that REALLY removes lead is mercury, which is impossible get now because it's potentially so toxic. Hoppe's makes a "Lead Remover" which helps a little when using the steel-wool-on-a-brush trick. Unfortunately lead is one metal that is immune to most solvents. If the fouling isn't too gross, I usually clear it by firing half a dozen jacketed bullets, and then clear the copper out with Hoppe's or Shooter's Choice.

My Quickload software says that your load of 3031 fills 64% of the available case volume. Your problem with it not burning cleanly is the light bullet. It doesn't put up enough resistance to let the powder build up to it's optimum pressure. QL calculates just 12000 psi., and 3031 wants to work at 20000+ psi. 34 grains is a fairly light load even for the more usual 400 grain bullets used in the .40-82. Try another powder.

Is your bullet gas checked or plain base? If not gas checked, you kinda have to keep it down to 1400 fps or so. Which means you need a powder that does like the 10,000 / 15000 psi. range. That puts you in the realm of the magnum pistol powders - Blue Dot, 2400, AA#7, HS-6, Ramshot True Blue. Reasonable starting loads around 12-14 grains. These do not fill past 50%, so you have the be HYPER vigilant about avoiding double charges. Do that just once and you won't have a gun anymore. A 2cm. square of toilet paper will help keep the powder close to the primer, if the load proves to be position sensitive. Do not EVER use a card or felt wad!!! I used to use kapok, a vegetable fiber that doesn't melt and gum up the gun and the cases like dacron. You can usually find it online. A few ounces will last almost forever, you use so little.

This also looks like an application for Trail Boss, although you'll only get to 1200 fps or so before you hit the SAAMI recommended pressure limit of 18000 psi.

Honestly, if I were working with the .40-82, I'd be using Holy Black, with 3 grains of smokeless pistol powder next to the primer to keep the fouling manageable. It's such a PITA to clean those Winchester lever guns.

[Kev18]

The only thing that REALLY removes lead is mercury, which is impossible get now because it's potentially so toxic. Hoppe's makes a "Lead Remover" which helps a little when using the steel-wool-on-a-brush trick. Unfortunately lead is one metal that is immune to most solvents. If the fouling isn't too gross, I usually clear it by firing half a dozen jacketed bullets, and then clear the copper out with Hoppe's or Shooter's Choice.

My Quickload software says that your load of 3031 fills 64% of the available case volume. Your problem with it not burning cleanly is the light bullet. It doesn't put up enough resistance to let the powder build up to it's optimum pressure. QL calculates just 12000 psi., and 3031 wants to work at 20000+ psi. 34 grains is a fairly light load even for the more usual 400 grain bullets used in the .40-82. Try another powder.

Is your bullet gas checked or plain base? If not gas checked, you kinda have to keep it down to 1400 fps or so. Which means you need a powder that does like the 10,000 / 15000 psi. range. That puts you in the realm of the magnum pistol powders - Blue Dot, 2400, AA#7, HS-6, Ramshot True Blue. Reasonable starting loads around 12-14 grains. These do not fill past 50%, so you have the be HYPER vigilant about avoiding double charges. Do that just once and you won't have a gun anymore. A 2cm. square of toilet paper will help keep the powder close to the primer, if the load proves to be position sensitive. Do not EVER use a card or felt wad!!! I used to use kapok, a vegetable fiber that doesn't melt and gum up the gun and the cases like dacron. You can usually find it online. A few ounces will last almost forever, you use so little.

This also looks like an application for Trail Boss, although you'll only get to 1200 fps or so before you hit the SAAMI recommended pressure limit of 18000 psi.

Honestly, if I were working with the .40-82, I'd be using Holy Black, with 3 grains of smokeless pistol powder next to the primer to keep the fouling manageable. It's such a PITA to clean those Winchester lever guns.

What software are you using? My cases definitely arent halfway full. And never heard of anyone using 400grn bullets for 40-82. No way. The most ive seen is 300, and apparently causes accuracy issues since the barrel has a very slow twist.
My bullet is plain base, no gas check. And I dont have a choice to keep it lower than 1500 fps. SOmeone told me any hotter than that and the barrel will get damaged.
And I have trail boss, but when I shoot it feels like a .22 . Dosent have any power what so ever.
Alot of people told me to use BP and that it would solve alot of issues. Someone mentioend a specific powder to put on top of the primer for less fowling, il need to go back up the thread.
What do you think would be better? Pyrodex 2f. Or goex 2f. Thats what I have, but pyrodex has smaller grains that don't fill up the case as much.

[uscra112]

I'm using Quickload, Ver, 3.6. Over nine years that I've been using it, I have yet to find a significant error in its' database, but there's always the possibility.

QL defaults to a 400 grain bullet. That might be wrong. I have never played with the .40-82 myself, so have no other data.

It shows a maximum case volume of 79 grains of water, or 5.129 cc. Can you measure and verify? If that needs correcting I can do it and re-run the models.

Quick troll thru the Innertubes got me this URL https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shooting-and-hunting/40-82+W.C.F.+reloading+data/

There the posters are saying AA5744 and 4198, with bullets around your weight. I have burned a lot of both in .30 and .35 caliber cartridges, but with gas checked bullets at 1600-1800 fps. Still, if you can get them, would be worth a try. Mike Venturino was very big on 5744 for large cases. I did not get good consistency until I got it up to 18-20,000 psi, however. 4198 is said to perform at lower pressures, but I have no quantitative data for large cases. It is one of the default powders for the much smaller .22 Lovell, which a pet of mine, and the .222 Remington. But there we are hammering jacketed bullet out the muzzle at 2700-3000 fps, pressures 40-45,000 psi. When I did reduced loads in the .222, I used Red Dot. Do not try that in your .40-82.

I object to cornmeal type fillers because they raise pressures, sometimes by a lot. That may however explain how you found loads using 3031 with a filler. The filler could/would have pushed the pressure into the range that 3013 likes.

I hold no brief whatever for Pyrodex in any form, because it deteriorates with age. I haven't shot black for a number of years now, but when I did I went to great lengths to obtain Swiss. 2F would be the right granulation of Goex. 3 to 5 grains of any sort of pistol powder, then fill the case with your black. Do not weigh, just fill the case to the base of the bullet.

Generally speaking, plain base bullets will start leading the barrel at about 1500 fps, unless cast pretty hard. No permanent damage, though. Many years ago I shot hundreds of commercial "hard cast" .35 caliber pistol bullets through my Dad's .35 Remington. They were miserable until I learned to push 'em to 1800 fps with XMP5744. I don't know how hard they actually were, but today I'd guess Br 15 to 18.

[indian joe]

What software are you using? My cases definitely arent halfway full. And never heard of anyone using 400grn bullets for 40-82. No way. The most ive seen is 300, and apparently causes accuracy issues since the barrel has a very slow twist.
My bullet is plain base, no gas check. And I dont have a choice to keep it lower than 1500 fps. SOmeone told me any hotter than that and the barrel will get damaged.
And I have trail boss, but when I shoot it feels like a .22 . Dosent have any power what so ever.
Alot of people told me to use BP and that it would solve alot of issues. Someone mentioend a specific powder to put on top of the primer for less fowling, il need to go back up the thread.
What do you think would be better? Pyrodex 2f. Or goex 2f. Thats what I have, but pyrodex has smaller grains that don't fill up the case as much.

Kev
Not pyrodex !!!! use proper blackpowder - FFGoex is good - if you want to use duplex - I have shot duplex in my Uberti 1876 with good results 3 to 5 grains of 4227 works good down at the primer then fill up with black - just need to be a bit carefull that the smokeless goes in first and stays down over the flash hole (not mixed with the black you got two layers) also used SR4759 but liked the other better - I reckon this is a lot easier than trying to figure out safe smokeless loads in these old large capacity cases - you get all the benefits of BP loading and at the same time you dont foul out from it - still can NOT put the gun away dirty though - cleanup is easy once you figure out a system - water - brush - gun belly up so the magazine dont get wet - patches and oil - must have a muzzle protector on your cleaning rod - it dont take long at all.

[Kev18]

Kev
Not pyrodex !!!! use proper blackpowder - FFGoex is good - if you want to use duplex - I have shot duplex in my Uberti 1876 with good results 3 to 5 grains of 4227 works good down at the primer then fill up with black - just need to be a bit carefull that the smokeless goes in first and stays down over the flash hole (not mixed with the black you got two layers) also used SR4759 but liked the other better - I reckon this is a lot easier than trying to figure out safe smokeless loads in these old large capacity cases - you get all the benefits of BP loading and at the same time you dont foul out from it - still can NOT put the gun away dirty though - cleanup is easy once you figure out a system - water - brush - gun belly up so the magazine dont get wet - patches and oil - must have a muzzle protector on your cleaning rod - it dont take long at all.

Ok no pyrodex, is it because it wont fill up the case?
Il get 4227 this week, and il order lube.
And how many shots do you think will start to affect accuracy? How much time do I have before the BP starts to eat away the barrel? I go shoot at the cottage for the weekend and usually come back sunday night. Would I need to clean it right away or can I wait til the day after?

[indian joe]

Ok no pyrodex, is it because it wont fill up the case?
Il get 4227 this week, and il order lube.
And how many shots do you think will start to affect accuracy? How much time do I have before the BP starts to eat away the barrel? I go shoot at the cottage for the weekend and usually come back sunday night. Would I need to clean it right away or can I wait til the day after?

Pyrodex ? is extremely difficult to clean well enough to stop it from rusting the steel of your gun - it looks clean but the stuff gets into the molecular structure of the steel and initiates rusting (it leaves a perchlorate residue - very bad stuff)
How many shots ? how long is a piece of string ? in a new barrel 38/40, duplex 3grains 4227, under full case of black, RCBS cowboy projectile, plenty of good lube - - I have shot 50 with no effect whatsoever - could shoot that rifle with that load indefinitely I think.
Your barrel is a bit spotty (pitted) it will be ok till it starts to pick up some lead I think. Make sure your lube is either a proper bought BLACKPOWDER lube or make it yourself with beeswax and tallow or neatsfoot oil or olive oil or some other natural oil. most Smokeless lubes are next to worthless with blackpowder. the secret with blackpowder is keeping the residue soft in the bore and it will form a soft smudge at the muzzle. That little bit of smokeless in a duplex load burns most of the blackpowder residue up.
Blackpowder residue dont "eat away the barrel" - the residue attracts moisture and there is some salts in it - that combination starts the rusting process - if you can keep it dry (like Arizona desert dry) it takes quite a while. normal conditions tomorrow is fine , the day after is ok , a week later maybe, the trouble is after a couple days we forget that we didnt do it and come back two months later in a humid environment ------ouch !!!!! rusty barrel!!! Make yourself a cleaning cradle (I will post a pic tomorrow - cradle - flush bottle - muzzle protector)

[garandsrus]

What type of accuracy are you getting with the Buffalo Bore Arms ammo?

[Texas by God]

What type of accuracy are you getting with the Buffalo Bore Arms ammo?Exactly. And shoot from a good rest -or you are wasting time and money. I've read in the past that the .40- 82 is a problem child best fed with softish lead/lube and Unique powder. I would sell it to a collector or have it rebored to 45-70 but that's just me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Kev18]

Pyrodex ? is extremely difficult to clean well enough to stop it from rusting the steel of your gun - it looks clean but the stuff gets into the molecular structure of the steel and initiates rusting (it leaves a perchlorate residue - very bad stuff)
How many shots ? how long is a piece of string ? in a new barrel 38/40, duplex 3grains 4227, under full case of black, RCBS cowboy projectile, plenty of good lube - - I have shot 50 with no effect whatsoever - could shoot that rifle with that load indefinitely I think.
Your barrel is a bit spotty (pitted) it will be ok till it starts to pick up some lead I think. Make sure your lube is either a proper bought BLACKPOWDER lube or make it yourself with beeswax and tallow or neatsfoot oil or olive oil or some other natural oil. most Smokeless lubes are next to worthless with blackpowder. the secret with blackpowder is keeping the residue soft in the bore and it will form a soft smudge at the muzzle. That little bit of smokeless in a duplex load burns most of the blackpowder residue up.
Blackpowder residue dont "eat away the barrel" - the residue attracts moisture and there is some salts in it - that combination starts the rusting process - if you can keep it dry (like Arizona desert dry) it takes quite a while. normal conditions tomorrow is fine , the day after is ok , a week later maybe, the trouble is after a couple days we forget that we didnt do it and come back two months later in a humid environment ------ouch !!!!! rusty barrel!!! Make yourself a cleaning cradle (I will post a pic tomorrow - cradle - flush bottle - muzzle protector)

Thanks for all the info. Il go buy powder tommorow for sure! And id like some pictures too, Il try to make a cradle if its not to hard.

[Kev18]

What type of accuracy are you getting with the Buffalo Bore Arms ammo?

Buffalo arms ammo? I have boxes and boxes of them still never opened. The bullets are .406 dia . My bore would need .410 thats why i beagled my mold. And all the BA ammo is black powder and I have two boxes from GAD customs. Literally can't hit the side of a barn at 10 yards.

[Kev18]

Exactly. And shoot from a good rest -or you are wasting time and money. I've read in the past that the .40- 82 is a problem child best fed with softish lead/lube and Unique powder. I would sell it to a collector or have it rebored to 45-70 but that's just me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Naah, not gonna sell 'er. Il figure it out.

[Kev18]

I put solvent in the barrel with a brush and steel wool wrapped around it like someone mentioned above. So far its cleaning.
https://i.imgur.com/ivscoQk.jpg

[garandsrus]

Kev,

You don’t want to use steel wool, it is too hard and could damage the barrel. You want to use copper wool like from a Chore Boy pad. Here’s a link to them: https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=chore+boy+copper&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=241926913635&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17356200003635567698&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9016840&hvtargid=kwd-303018889898&ref=pd_sl_8gtbbaijaa_e_p37

You should be able to find them at the grocery store also.

I don’t see any lead flakes on your patch so you don’t appear to get any leading.

Did you shoot any of the BA ammo? The bullet might bump up and shoot well. Is the GAD custom ammo smokeless? You shot it and it didn’t shoot well, right?

[Kev18]

Kev,

You don’t want to use steel wool, it is too hard and could damage the barrel. You want to use copper wool like from a Chore Boy pad. Here’s a link to them: https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=chore+boy+copper&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=241926913635&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17356200003635567698&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9016840&hvtargid=kwd-303018889898&ref=pd_sl_8gtbbaijaa_e_p37

You should be able to find them at the grocery store also.

I don’t see any lead flakes on your patch so you don’t appear to get any leading.

Did you shoot any of the BA ammo? The bullet might bump up and shoot well. Is the GAD custom ammo smokeless? You shot it and it didn’t shoot well, right?

Both are black powder. I shot a couple boxes from both companies with no success. I feel like BP bumps up the bullet alittle, but not enough for me. 40-82 were known to have bores ranging from .406 to .410. Both companies had .406 bullets.

[Kev18]

I'm using Quickload, Ver, 3.6. Over nine years that I've been using it, I have yet to find a significant error in its' database, but there's always the possibility.

QL defaults to a 400 grain bullet. That might be wrong. I have never played with the .40-82 myself, so have no other data.

It shows a maximum case volume of 79 grains of water, or 5.129 cc. Can you measure and verify? If that needs correcting I can do it and re-run the models.

Quick troll thru the Innertubes got me this URL https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shooting-and-hunting/40-82+W.C.F.+reloading+data/

There the posters are saying AA5744 and 4198, with bullets around your weight. I have burned a lot of both in .30 and .35 caliber cartridges, but with gas checked bullets at 1600-1800 fps. Still, if you can get them, would be worth a try. Mike Venturino was very big on 5744 for large cases. I did not get good consistency until I got it up to 18-20,000 psi, however. 4198 is said to perform at lower pressures, but I have no quantitative data for large cases. It is one of the default powders for the much smaller .22 Lovell, which a pet of mine, and the .222 Remington. But there we are hammering jacketed bullet out the muzzle at 2700-3000 fps, pressures 40-45,000 psi. When I did reduced loads in the .222, I used Red Dot. Do not try that in your .40-82.

I object to cornmeal type fillers because they raise pressures, sometimes by a lot. That may however explain how you found loads using 3031 with a filler. The filler could/would have pushed the pressure into the range that 3013 likes.

I hold no brief whatever for Pyrodex in any form, because it deteriorates with age. I haven't shot black for a number of years now, but when I did I went to great lengths to obtain Swiss. 2F would be the right granulation of Goex. 3 to 5 grains of any sort of pistol powder, then fill the case with your black. Do not weigh, just fill the case to the base of the bullet.

Generally speaking, plain base bullets will start leading the barrel at about 1500 fps, unless cast pretty hard. No permanent damage, though. Many years ago I shot hundreds of commercial "hard cast" .35 caliber pistol bullets through my Dad's .35 Remington. They were miserable until I learned to push 'em to 1800 fps with XMP5744. I don't know how hard they actually were, but today I'd guess Br 15 to 18.

I'm not sure what you mean with water grains but the new case capacity is around 75 grains of 2f BP. And the max weight for a bullet I have seen actually work, is 310 grains from an old west mold. A user on here sent me alot of articles, some by Mike Venturo. He specifies that the barrel twist is to slow to stabilize anything above that weight.

[garandsrus]

Fill a case with water (spent primer in place) and then see what the weight of the water is. The easiest method is probably to weigh the dry case and then weigh the same case filled with water. The difference is the weight of water, in grains, if that is the units you are using.

[uscra112]

Hard to weigh a 40-82 case full of water if all you have is a beam balance scale. But for a big case like that you'll get close by just dumping the water into the pan to weigh it.

I'm eager to know what you find so I can correct my Quikload database.

[Kev18]

Before water
https://i.imgur.com/jqVtHcv.jpg

After Water
https://i.imgur.com/19nFeBd.jpg

[uscra112]

Is that full to the top? I'm not seeing a meniscus there.

73 grains is a lot less than the 79 grains that's in the Quickload database.

[Kev18]

Is that full to the top? I'm not seeing a meniscus there.

73 grains is a lot less than the 79 grains that's in the Quickload database.

Cant add a single drop more.
Keep in mind the new cases are thicker. The cases in the early years were thin.

[uscra112]

Well, that's a first. Never before have I seen any parameter in the QL database be so far off.

They must have measured a balloon-head case. And what you have are solid-head, of course.

In any case (bad pun) I've adjusted my parameter, so my results will be closer to what you observe from now on.

Didja buy any more powder yet?

[Kev18]

Well, that's a first. Never before have I seen any parameter in the QL database be so far off.

They must have measured a balloon-head case. And what you have are solid-head, of course.

In any case (bad pun) I've adjusted my parameter, so my results will be closer to what you observe from now on.

Didja buy any more powder yet?

Got some 4227 to put on top of primers, 4198 to use as a smokeless load. Although il probably use cornmeal as a filler. Il copy loads from Mike Venturo.

[uscra112]

OK, good.

I'm still opposed to fillers, even moreso with 4198. What is Venturino saying about that?

[Kev18]

OK, good.

I'm still opposed to fillers, even moreso with 4198. What is Venturino saying about that?


255 gr bullet
28gr 4198 ( cornmeal filler)
1478 fps
2 1/4 inch group.

255gr bullet
34 gr 3031 ( cornmeal filler)
1458 fps
2 1/4 inch group.


He also tested 280 and 310 grain bullets. 310 being the heaviest and most accurate bullet that can be used.
I have articles from Mike, Larry O'connell and couple others about the 40-82. Everyone uses fillers, without them the powder does not ignite or causes hang fires.

[Kev18]

I'm at the cottage shooting. I made 20 rounds. 10 70 grains of Goex 2f and 4227 on the primer. And another 10 rounds of the same thing just 68 grains of goex. I was barely hitting my paper so I made a big back board to see where the bullets were landing. Put of twenty rounds I barely hit it at about 50 feet.
When I only had 4 rounds left I took the target out to the swamp. I put it 45 feet and shot. I got hole in hole accuracy. I have no idea what I did but it was accurate. The only thing I could think of was that I backed my head up on the stock because my peep sight got stamped in my cheek due to heavy recoil. Once I moved my head back I hit all of the 4 rounds in the target. Il post pictures when I get home. I have no idea how to do it on my phone.

[Kev18]

https://i.imgur.com/P3U0QYt.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9FVRRqg.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/2CRP6EW.jpg

[Texas by God]

You've got too many rear sights on that rifle[emoji16]

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[uscra112]

OK, not stellar, but progress all the same. Especially changing your hold!

My final comment on fillers, then I'll shut up:

I hang out (figuratively speaking), with the guys on the ASSRA website. In theory at least dedicated to the preservation of the 19th century Schuetzen game. The best of these guys can keep every shot on a salad plate at 200 yards, offhand, using iron sights. On the bench it's more like a silver dollar, AND they shoot for score, which means a tight group out in the 7-ring does you no good at all. The rules say plain base bullets. Everybody breech seats, rather than seating the bullet in the case. Cartridges vary from .25-20 Single Shot to .32-40, with a rare individual who can take the recoil of a .38-55 all day. (Many matches are 100 shots.) Top shooters do tend to use powders faster than 4198; AA#9, 4227, AA4100, etc. Case volume probably has something to do with it - the .32-40 is only 41 grains of water.

To the point: NOBODY today uses fillers. Some do use a tiny tuft of kapok or toilet tissue to keep the powder close to the primer, and it is very popular to use a thin wad of floral foam at the case mouth, just to avoid spilling powder. (Wads down on the powder cause chamber ringing!)

I'm a natural skeptic. Even the Gun Gods of my youth published some strange and even dangerous loads. Especially Elmer and his infamous "OKH duplex loads" scheme. Those were the days! No cheap electronic instrumentation, no computers, just load it up and tie a string to the trigger!

http://elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/1982_10_Compressed_Rifle_Charges.pdf Read this through - he has a little to say about fillers.

But then he also advocated a card wad down on the powder, which has now been proven to be THE prime cause of ringed chambers.

I cannot factor fillers into my QL models, so you're on your own in re: pressures. Do you have a chronograph? That'll give an indirect estimate.

Cheers!

Phil

[Kev18]

You've got too many rear sights on that rifle[emoji16]

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I have a peep and a normal V style folding ladder sight.

[Kev18]

OK, not stellar, but progress all the same. Especially changing your hold!

My final comment on fillers, then I'll shut up:

I hang out (figuratively speaking), with the guys on the ASSRA website. In theory at least dedicated to the preservation of the 19th century Schuetzen game. The best of these guys can keep every shot on a salad plate at 200 yards, offhand, using iron sights. On the bench it's more like a silver dollar, AND they shoot for score, which means a tight group out in the 7-ring does you no good at all. The rules say plain base bullets. Everybody breech seats, rather than seating the bullet in the case. Cartridges vary from .25-20 Single Shot to .32-40, with a rare individual who can take the recoil of a .38-55 all day. (Many matches are 100 shots.) Top shooters do tend to use powders faster than 4198; AA#9, 4227, AA4100, etc. Case volume probably has something to do with it - the .32-40 is only 41 grains of water.

To the point: NOBODY today uses fillers. Some do use a tiny tuft of kapok or toilet tissue to keep the powder close to the primer, and it is very popular to use a thin wad of floral foam at the case mouth, just to avoid spilling powder. (Wads down on the powder cause chamber ringing!)

I'm a natural skeptic. Even the Gun Gods of my youth published some strange and even dangerous loads. Especially Elmer and his infamous "OKH duplex loads" scheme. Those were the days! No cheap electronic instrumentation, no computers, just load it up and tie a string to the trigger!

http://elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/1982_10_Compressed_Rifle_Charges.pdf Read this through - he has a little to say about fillers.

But then he also advocated a card wad down on the powder, which has now been proven to be THE prime cause of ringed chambers.

I cannot factor fillers into my QL models, so you're on your own in re: pressures. Do you have a chronograph? That'll give an indirect estimate.

Cheers!

Phil

My issue is exactly what you said, and is everyone else issue when reloading 40-82. The case capacity is to large. Smaller cases have no issues. And if my rifle wouldnt be an original it would save alot of problems. I need to keep the pressures and fps relatively low compared to today's standards.

[uscra112]

My issue is exactly what you said, and is everyone else issue when reloading 40-82. The case capacity is to large. Smaller cases have no issues. And if my rifle wouldnt be an original it would save alot of problems. I need to keep the pressures and fps relatively low compared to today's standards.

Funny how guns that gave people trouble into the smokeless era are now better preserved than others. They got packed away in an attic and became time capsules for us to discover. And to try to figure out.

BTW I reminded myself that some people tried Grex, (also known as Puff-Lon), which is a very lightweight synthetic filler used to buffer the shot load in shotguns. I still have a jar, from back when I tried stuff like that. I also have half a bushel of kapok, which would last me six lifetimes even if I were shooting at the rate I was fifteen years ago! Puff-Lon did nothing for me one way or the other, so there it sits on a shelf.

[Texas by God]

Perhaps the 40 - 82 cartridge is obsolete for good reason! That's what I'm getting out of all of this...

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[Kev18]

Funny how guns that gave people trouble into the smokeless era are now better preserved than others. They got packed away in an attic and became time capsules for us to discover. And to try to figure out.

BTW I reminded myself that some people tried Grex, (also known as Puff-Lon), which is a very lightweight synthetic filler used to buffer the shot load in shotguns. I still have a jar, from back when I tried stuff like that. I also have half a bushel of kapok, which would last me six lifetimes even if I were shooting at the rate I was fifteen years ago! Puff-Lon did nothing for me one way or the other, so there it sits on a shelf.

I dont feel like testing out fillers and such anymore, or for now atleast. So i am just running goex with 5 grains 4227 on the primer. Apparently that helps fouling. Ive had my best group with that. Il go shooting again this weekend.

[Kev18]

Perhaps the 40 - 82 cartridge is obsolete for good reason! That's what I'm getting out of all of this...

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It's obsolete like hundreds of others. No fun for me in new cartridges... No cool guns are chambered in them. I just reloaded some .32 Remington. Thats one that gave me abit of trouble. Now thats obsolete considering the .32 Winchester special survived, and they are literally the same cartridge. Except the .32 rem does not have a rim. Even if it's obsolete I just slapped a bullet in the case along with powder and it works fine. Some are just more complicated than others.
Did some .44 mag also for one of my newer dated levers. Not a fan of remlins.

[indian joe]

I dont feel like testing out fillers and such anymore, or for now atleast. So i am just running goex with 5 grains 4227 on the primer. Apparently that helps fouling. Ive had my best group with that. Il go shooting again this weekend.

Kev
That is a simple solution - you will be getting very very close to original factory ballistics, case is full so you can use the original style of boolit without crimping problems, if that is the best group stick with it, you might improve accuracy a bit with a wad under the boolit (juice box wad or some of the long range gurus use LDPE - plastic milk jug) - Enjoy that old rifle you are lucky to have it!

[Kev18]

Kev
That is a simple solution - you will be getting very very close to original factory ballistics, case is full so you can use the original style of boolit without crimping problems, if that is the best group stick with it, you might improve accuracy a bit with a wad under the boolit (juice box wad or some of the long range gurus use LDPE - plastic milk jug) - Enjoy that old rifle you are lucky to have it!

Thank you! I use a fiber wad from Buffalo Arms. I still need to run the brass through the resizing die to "thin out" the neck. I might just do what a user on here told me to do. He has been shooting 40-82 for far longer then me and he had every problem I had/ have. Il need to file the necks down of the cases. Thinning out the necks= bigger bullet in the chamber.

[bigted]

Just read this whole saga. Are you turning in some acvurate shooting now?

Some time back in this post, you wrote of having trouble with the wrist mounted peep sight ... did you get this festered out?

Got a need to know. I have had a 45-120 sharps for years. That is a 45 cal in a 3 1/4 inch case and time to time i get energetic and try some new to me info. I find this whole post to be beneficial to my situation. Have you tried 1 Fg powder? I finally got some regular GOEX 1Fg powder and i am going to load some of my rather long cases with it.

So whats up Kev?

[Kev18]

Just read this whole saga. Are you turning in some acvurate shooting now?

Some time back in this post, you wrote of having trouble with the wrist mounted peep sight ... did you get this festered out?

Got a need to know. I have had a 45-120 sharps for years. That is a 45 cal in a 3 1/4 inch case and time to time i get energetic and try some new to me info. I find this whole post to be beneficial to my situation. Have you tried 1 Fg powder? I finally got some regular GOEX 1Fg powder and i am going to load some of my rather long cases with it.

So whats up Kev?

Im all fixed up now! I reload with smokeless . Alot simpler for me. Powder was not my issue, it was just the load in general. I explained it a bit on the other post from the guy with accuracy issues in his 1892. I saw you commented on there to.
Basically, the loads I was trying weren't right for me. Old cartridges are "special" and need alot of attention! Im assuming your 45-120 is or might be in the same boat... Keep in mind its the little things that matter. People give alot of useful info but unless its for that specific cartridge, its almost not going to work. For example people were trying to give me advice on the 40-82 but they had only shot 45-70. Its all good and useful information... for the 45-70 not mine.
I was shooting pretty much every load in the book for this caliber. Wasn't working. Black powder, smokeless, Black powder substitutes... I tried everything. No accuracy. People recommended to use fillers. Some said toilet paper, others cornmeal. Toilet paper wasnt great but improved. Meaning that 5 yards away I could hit a paper. After trying everything I felt like giving up but like you said I got energetic and positive about the situation, so I reloaded more and went shooting every weekend.

After everything I tried, the only option left was cornmeal filler. I tried it and it drastically improved. I GOT AN ACTUAL GROUP!
Still wasnt crazy accuracy to today's standards but I could hit paper and a target at 25-30 yards.

Now at this point my issue thats mentioned in this thread was rounds not chambering. I was told to file the cases down on the outside because on old rifles the chambers could be smaller than the bores. So I did... bought all the tools for that! And it worked, but caused my brass to be way to thin at the neck. So that wasnt normal.

Last weekend I reloaded original .406 diameter bullets. Before hand, I was loading the same bullets just beagled to .410 because I was sure my bore was to small due to the accuracy issues i was having because that is what someone told me when I first purchased the rifle and asked about my problem. Turns out the .406 bullets shoot just fine and even better than the other ones. So the over sized bullets are what caused most of the chambering issue. 50% of the problem solved. Now the cartridges went in but I had to apply an uncomfortable amount of force. So something else was wrong. My **** brass was to long from shooting it to much. So I purchased a lyman case trimmer. Now my cases slide in the bore with no friction.

Keep in mind all of this went on for 3 years. Every day I am doing research, and trying to gain knowledge on the 40-82 and rifle itself.

Last week I went shooting and I was hitting clay pigeons with the rifle. Good enough for me.

As for the sights, I put the original front sight and rear sight back on. The peep sight is still on also. It seems to work well even with my rear ladder sight. SO it'll stay there for now. :)

Im glad to help and share my boring, aggravating story with you and any tips I might have! If you want real solid info you could check for older forum posts and articles written by people who studied and shot the rifle for years. And by old articles I mean from the 70's-90's. I got some good ones on my rifle and caliber.

Ask away if you have questions! :D

[samari46]

Ever consider inside reaming of the case necks?. Might give you a few thousandths to play with and help solve your problem.Your only two options after that would be reaming the outside of the case necks or run a chambering reamer up the barrel to open up the chamber. Frank

[Kev18]

Ever consider inside reaming of the case necks?. Might give you a few thousandths to play with and help solve your problem.Your only two options after that would be reaming the outside of the case necks or run a chambering reamer up the barrel to open up the chamber. Frank

Im all fixed now.It took me awhile to find out all my issues but she shoots! :)