.38/.357 Magnum brass differences, et cetera ?

[sniper]

Given: You can fire .38 Special ammunition in a 357 Magnum, but not the reverse.

Many of the "old timey" gun writers, notably a fellow by the name of Skeeter Skelton, who was a Border Patrol Officer, back when they weren't paid much. He was on the pistol team, and could get all the fired .38 Special brass he wanted....free! That's why he used it, but for his Heavy Loads, he recommended and used "expen$ive" 357 Magnum brass. I even loaded up a few of his "Medium" load...13.5 gr. 2400/158 gr. swc...One range session was enough, thank you very much!:shock: I was younger then.

I use 357 brass exclusively, but am now trying to load .38 Spl +P level "FBI equivalent" rounds in my 357 revolvers, with velocity from 900-1,000 fps. That's lively enough for me, as I age towards 80. 8-) I have heard the old saw;" For 357, take the top load from a .38 special manual., add 5-10%", and FEAR NOT!

My once standard IPSC and everything load was 357 brass, CCI standard Pistol primer, home cast 150gr SWC (RCBS mold) sized .357, 5.5 gr. Unique, chrono'd 860 fps. Nice to shoot, accurate.

In my research, I have found opinions from "shoot 'em like it says in the manual", to "add .01-.03 grain to compensate for the extra space",going from .38 Spl. to Magnum brass.(?)

At present, I have Unique, Universal, Trail Boss and a little 2400, which I won't replace when it is gone. I'm looking for a powder of the same or greater case-filling bulk as Unique and Universal, and I am thinking about Herco, AA#5, HS-6 or maybe Blue dot, using 125-135 gr cast, plated and JHP, 148-150 gr Wadcutters, and 158-165 gr. cast and "J Word" boolits. Low flash would be good. Buy one of each? Not possible on a fixed income, and, at ~ $30 a can, If I buy mistakenly, it will get expen$ive!

O.K., so now, to the questions...
1. I'm not worried about overpressure in my 357, sooo...6gr. Unique being below the start load for .357, that should be a safe and reasonable load for 150-160 gr. lead boolits, do you think? Personal experiences with any of the above powders, or maybe something I haven't considered?

2. I read once that ball powder, as in HS-6, will erode a forcing cone faster than flake....true?

3. If I use Small Pistol Magnum primers, or Winchester SP, which are said to be sufficient for hard-to-ignite powders, too, how will it change the dynamics of the load, if at all? Will a change of primers increase/decrease accuracy or pressures?

Thanks for letting me ramble!:-)

[johniv]

I think you answered your own question with the 5.5 gr of unique load. I have shot 6.0 gr of unique in .357 brass and 158 gr swc and like it a lot. As for your other questions , a mag primer is not needed with unique, and I have not used HS6 in the .357, so I don't know anything about it. However I agree with you about Skeeters load, I made it to 12.5 gr of 2400 with the Thomson boolit and threw in the towel. FWIW

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I have used starting loads of Unique 6.3 gr under 158gr swc in my 3" Ruger sp101 and 6" 686 shoots well but a lot of Flash out of the
3" barrel

[9.3X62AL]

6.0 grains of Unique or 6.5 grains of Herco under a cast #358429 give about 975-1000 FPS in my S&W 686 x 4". 357 Magnum cases are used. These make up about 90% of my 357 Magnum shooting these days. Tractable recoil, reasonable bark, and a bit more OOMPH downrange when a surly badger or sneaky coyote needs processing.

[salvadore]

I am or was a big Skeeter fan and don't remember a 13.5 load for .357 brass but do know the classic Skeeter load of 13.5 2400 a 358156 in .38 cases. I recently bought some .357 cases for the first time in 40 years for a Miroku 92 although .38 cases work fine. So I still use a modified Skeeter load and a modified Keith load for my heavy cartridges. Everything else also goes into .38 cases with BE and and 148gr wadcutters. I Don't see a reason for .357 brass.

[sniper]

salvadore;
Skeeter's recommendation for 357 brass was published in an article in Shooting Times in 1988. http://www.darkcanyon.net/MyFriend_The357.htm It's just a short sentencepart of a paragraph preceeding the load tables.

When I started reloading in the '70s, I had the choice of really cheap .38 or the more expen$ive 357 brass, and I decided to go with the longer stuff. Haven't had reason to question the decision, although once I did have some Sellier and Bellot .38 brass that I got from somewhere, that I tried to shoot to failure, rather than throw it away. :shock: I gave up!:wink:

LUCKYDAWG13, johniv and 9.3X62AL; Thanx for the suggestions! That is what makes this forum so interesting and valuable! :grin:

[salvadore]

Sniper
Thanks for the article, I blame Skeeter for my major interest during my adult life, shooting.

I noticed Skeeter didn't want anyone casting aspersions (sp) whatever that is, concerning his .357 sixgun, not the cartridge and later tells us his favorite reload is the .38 cased 358156/2400 load.

I know I am picking nits and a personal choice is a personal choice. While I am pushing seventy, I aspire to someday be pushing eighty and still putting rounds down range like you.

[Petrol & Powder]

I think you've already answered your own question.

As for: "......I use 357 brass exclusively, but am now trying to load .38 Spl +P level "FBI equivalent" rounds in my 357 revolvers, with velocity from 900-1,000 fps......"

I'm assuming you are looking for a 900-1000 fps load in a .357 mag casing with a soft lead, SWC HP ? That would be a little hotter than the "FBI Load" with is a 158 gr LSWCHP +P 38 Special but it's not significantly hotter given the .357 magnum chambering. You should have NO problems getting a 160ish grain LSWC to 1000 fps in a .357 mag. and stay well within pressure limits.
6.0 grains of Unique will easily get you in that range with a 160 grain LSWC.
I use Unique in some loads but I don't care for the way it meters in an automated powder measure on a progressive press, so I use other powders on a progressive press.

[tazman]

In my 357 cases, I have been using 14 grains of IMR 4227 with the Lyman 358156 with gas check or the 358429 plain. The load gives me right at 1200 fps with either boolit and is very accurate in my revolvers.

[popper]

OK, question - 38 sp in 357 mag snuby. Does the longer cylinder give any 'barrel length ' advantage over a 38 sp, same length barrel? I can't handle 357 snubby but 38 is OK - is there an advantage to the 38/357 setup? Just factory ammo.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

OK, question - 38 sp in 357 mag snuby. Does the longer cylinder give any 'barrel length ' advantage over a 38 sp, same length barrel? I can't handle 357 snubby but 38 is OK - is there an advantage to the 38/357 setup? Just factory ammo.

No, is the short answer.

[tazman]

Bubba is correct. The extra length of chamber allows the gasses to expand a bit and lose pressure thereby removing any extra zip you would get from an extra 1/8 inch of barrel.
The gap variations between the cylinder and the barrel will have a greater effect than the cylinder length would.

[popper]

Thanks. Saves me $100.

[Gray Fox]

Have any of you substituted an equal amount of Universal Clays for the Unique? If so, how did it shoot? GF

[Geezer in NH]

That to me may make the cylinder bulge. USE published data not off the net , not I do this load.

Wonder why manufactures warranty goes away with reloads?

[maglvr]

From that Skeeter article..........
"My favorite handloads, made from a recipe of the 358156 hollowpoint bullet held in its lower crimping groove by a Remington .38 Special case."

[Low Budget Shooter]

Here's one data point that might help: In many chrony readings from 6" barrel Model 19-3, I learned that with a 158-ish grain bullet, it takes .5 grain more Red Dot powder for a round in a .357 Magnum case to have the same velocity as a round in a .38 Special case. The velocities in the .38 Special case will be more consistent. As Skeeter observed, 5.0 grains Red Dot in a .357 case, or 4.5 grains in a .38 Special case, is a great load.

[Walks]

I grew up in a time when a much heavier charge of 2400 was used in a .357MAG case under a Thompson Gas Check bullet.
My DAD wouldn't load the "SKEETER LOAD". He considered it a dangerous practice. With so many of us in the Hardcore Family group & his LODGE Brothers and others joining us.
There was too much danger of some uninformed individual slipping one of those "SKEETER LOADS" into a small frame S&W or COLT.
Of course that didn't stop me from doing it on my own, once I got out of the Service and started building my own Reloading Setup. I shot enough of the "SKEETER LOAD" in my NM BLACKHAWK & S&W 19 to fill a 55 gal drum.
These days the hottest .357MAG Load I shoot is the #358429 over 6.0grs UNIQUE.
If I feel the need for the #358156, I load only 14grs of 2400 in a magnum case.
Once in a while I'll load 4.5grs UNIQUE under #358429 for a Post-War OFFICIAL POLICE.
That's all the hot I need anymore.
.38SPL brass for .38SPL Loads.
.357MAG brass for .357MAG Loads.
It's just easier, and there's no cost difference anymore.

[charlie b]

Most of the time I shoot downloaded .357 loads in my revolver. Yep, max loads can be fun and they are what I keep loaded in it next to the bed. When it comes to range time I use a .38 Spl +P loading in .357 cases.

How can I tell the difference between my max loads and range loads? Easy. The max loads are all factory loads, either Silvertips or Hornady Critical Defense. My reloads are all reduced.

[salvadore]

I have moderated my .45, .44 loads but am not having any trouble with Skeeters load even out of my model 60-10. I'm even getting decent accuracy with the Miroku 92 even with my pathetic eye sight. I may not bother with the other 50 pieces of .357 brass if 92 accuracy is sustained. that means l will have half a box of jacketed bullets laying around also. For the safety first peeps, I Don't load anything but Skeeter and Elmer loads with those bullets. If someone helps themselves to one of those loads and puts it in their .38, sinloi.

[stubshaft]

I love Unique but hate the way it meters in a measure. Years ago I switched to AA#5 which gives me similar load densities and velocities with much better metering.

[Bookworm]

I've been using 6.0 grains of Universal under 150-160 grain lead anything in my 357 Mags. It goes at or just above 1000fps from a 6" barrel revolver.

Nice load. Accurate, with enough ooomph to tell it's a 357, but no ear-splitting crack, or uncivilized behavior.

[El Bibliotecario]

I began shooting the .357 when Skelton was still alive. I loaded 13.5 grains of Hercules 2400 in .38 Special cases with a Lyman 358156 gas check linotype bullet, using the _lower_ crimping groove as per Skelton's guidance to provide additional case capacity. Obviously one would not want to use such a load in a .38 Special weapon, but the high seated bullet offered a clear safety check. This load shot better in my Models 19 and 28 S&W revolvers than I could hold.

As I became more affluent, I began using this same load in .357 cases. I could tell no difference.

I might mention that after two decades of virtually exclusive use of this load in both .38 and .357 brass, the Model 19's cylinder axis pin became stretched, battered, or whatever to where the cylinder became difficult to close. I had the pin replaced and switched to Skelton's load of 11.0 grains 2400 with the aforementioned bullet. Another two decades have since passed, with no further issues.

[robertbank]

I ran 6 gr Unique under the Lyman 358430 201 gr bullet for 1,031fps avg with a Standard Deviation of 8 using my 4.2" GP-100. Very accurate.

Bob

[salvadore]

Didn't know Skelton ever mentioned an 11 gr. load. Was it with .38 brass and 358156 bullet? Did he mention velocity or such?

[bob208]

my go to load has been 6gr. unique with the 358429 bullet in .38 cases. I loaded that for police depts. they had .357 guns but the city fathers would not let them use mag ammo. I used .38 brass for myself because I could buy 3-4 hundred .38 cases for the price of 100 .357mag. as time went on .357 brass got cheaper and more plentiful. but then .38 got cheaper so I still use .38 most of the time.

[Potsy]

Come fall, or whenever it cools off, I'm casting up a big batch of Lee 158 RF's for my .38 and a couple of Pard's .357's. I'll be using .357 brass.

My plan was to drop 6 grains of Universal (or Unique, whichever I have the most) for 950-1000fps out of a 4" barrel (one is a 4" 19 and the other is an older 4" Dan Wesson). I sort of SWAGGED that load from gun rags and the fact that 9.0 grains of Universal gives right on 1000fps out of my .45 Colt with a 270SAA out of a 5-1/2" barrel. Brian Pierce says this load churns up 20,000PSI or so in a .45 Colt so I figured the 6.0 grain load would run around the same pressure.

Now the weird part, when I cross referenced my guess with real world data, Hogdon lists 6.2 grains as max for 1247fps out of a 10" barrel (I guess they tailored their data to all the TC contender guys) at 33,400CUP. Alliant lists 6.0 grains Unique as MAX at 1034fps out of a 6" barrel (they don't list pressure). Both list these loads with a 158 Cast Semi Wad Cutter.

I was thinking 6.0 grains of Unique or Universal in .357 Brass with either a 158SWC or a Lee 158RF would have been a real "easy on the gun +P.38" type of load, but according to the manuals, these are fire breathing top end .357 loads!

What's the deal?

[Maynard Shooter]

I am or was a big Skeeter fan and don't remember a 13.5 load for .357 brass but do know the classic Skeeter load of 13.5 2400 a 358156 in .38 cases. I recently bought some .357 cases for the first time in 40 years for a Miroku 92 although .38 cases work fine. So I still use a modified Skeeter load and a modified Keith load for my heavy cartridges. Everything else also goes into .38 cases with BE and and 148gr wadcutters. I Don't see a reason for .357 brass.

One reason is it makes it easier to clean your cylinder when you use 357 brass as it fills the holes.

[Soundguy]

Given: You can fire .38 Special ammunition in a 357 Magnum, but not the reverse.

Many of the "old timey" gun writers, notably a fellow by the name of Skeeter Skelton, who was a Border Patrol Officer, back when they weren't paid much. He was on the pistol team, and could get all the fired .38 Special brass he wanted....free! That's why he used it, but for his Heavy Loads, he recommended and used "expen$ive" 357 Magnum brass. I even loaded up a few of his "Medium" load...13.5 gr. 2400/158 gr. swc...One range session was enough, thank you very much!:shock: I was younger then.

I use 357 brass exclusively, but am now trying to load .38 Spl +P level "FBI equivalent" rounds in my 357 revolvers, with velocity from 900-1,000 fps. That's lively enough for me, as I age towards 80. 8-) I have heard the old saw;" For 357, take the top load from a .38 special manual., add 5-10%", and FEAR NOT!

My once standard IPSC and everything load was 357 brass, CCI standard Pistol primer, home cast 150gr SWC (RCBS mold) sized .357, 5.5 gr. Unique, chrono'd 860 fps. Nice to shoot, accurate.

In my research, I have found opinions from "shoot 'em like it says in the manual", to "add .01-.03 grain to compensate for the extra space",going from .38 Spl. to Magnum brass.(?)

At present, I have Unique, Universal, Trail Boss and a little 2400, which I won't replace when it is gone. I'm looking for a powder of the same or greater case-filling bulk as Unique and Universal, and I am thinking about Herco, AA#5, HS-6 or maybe Blue dot, using 125-135 gr cast, plated and JHP, 148-150 gr Wadcutters, and 158-165 gr. cast and "J Word" boolits. Low flash would be good. Buy one of each? Not possible on a fixed income, and, at ~ $30 a can, If I buy mistakenly, it will get expen$ive!

O.K., so now, to the questions...
1. I'm not worried about overpressure in my 357, sooo...6gr. Unique being below the start load for .357, that should be a safe and reasonable load for 150-160 gr. lead boolits, do you think? Personal experiences with any of the above powders, or maybe something I haven't considered?

2. I read once that ball powder, as in HS-6, will erode a forcing cone faster than flake....true?

3. If I use Small Pistol Magnum primers, or Winchester SP, which are said to be sufficient for hard-to-ignite powders, too, how will it change the dynamics of the load, if at all? Will a change of primers increase/decrease accuracy or pressures?

Thanks for letting me ramble!:-)

Just looking at the load and pressure differences in 357 vs 38 varieties shows you how tame 38 is vs 357.

[gwpercle]

Accurate arms #5 , 6.1 grains , 357 magnum Starline case, 155 grain SWC GC (Lyman 358156) sized .358 , in my 1971 Ruger Blackhawk , 15 shots went into a group 3/4 inch wide and 1 inch high . 25 yards .
You might want to give AA #5 a good look see.....It's a new powder to me but at the moment ...I'm Impressed with it ! I've been loading Unique for 50 years....but in the 357 mag. this AA #5 might give Unique a run .
Gary

[fecmech]

I was thinking 6.0 grains of Unique or Universal in .357 Brass with either a 158SWC or a Lee 158RF would have been a real "easy on the gun +P.38" type of load, but according to the manuals, these are fire breathing top end .357 loads!

What's the deal?

An older 2005 ALLIANT Manual lists a 158 swc 6.8 Unique/1295/33,900 psi as max so your 6.0 load will be very easy on the gun. With 34KPSI loads now being max for .357's IMO the max are not hard on good .357's.

[salvadore]

Maynard, I don't use .357 brass, but do kee the chambers clean on all my revolvers.

[Groo]

Groo here
What many miss is the 38 spec and the 357mag were the same length cylinder and neer the same length oal.
Keith designed the "Keith boolet" to fill the cylinder [they were the shorter ones] and allow more powder room.
If you check the oal you will find the 357mag and the 38 with the keith boolet are the same.
So the "Keith load " and the 357 load are not that far off.....
If you want heavy "magnum" 38 loads be sure to pick a boolet that seats far out of the case.
Usually found with 2 crimp groove cast boolets.

[beemer]

I posted this a while back but this looks like it might fit here. The load is 6 grains of Unique, standard CCI small pistol and a LEE 158 SWC GC with Lee tumble lube in a 357 case. I fired a cylinder from three Security Sixes across the Chrony. I might play with other loads but this is my standard load till I find something better.Also tried in a Taurus 605 with a 2" barrel, it was 820 fps and quite a handful so I cut that one back.

2 3/4" 924 fps

4" 948 fps

6" 985fps

Dave

[salvadore]

I put a new shorter front sight on the miroku 92 and am taking some Skeeter loads and will try my usual six oclock hold, maybe I'll get a better group. Will try some 358429s too. Would like to try some jacketed 357s but like to clean the barrel first. Maybe drag the chronograph out.

[salvadore]

BTW, does anyone know what the pressure is for the Skeeter load? I've heard around 30,000cup, but think it may be somewhat higher.

[Clark]

231851

I told the late gunsmith, Randy Ketchum, in ~1999 that I had shortened some 357 mag brass to fit in 38 specials for high pressure experimentation. He responded that 38 special brass was plenty strong. I realized immediately he was right. 38 special brass does not have a weak extractor groove like 270 Winchester, so there will never be loose primer pockets.

This is Remington Rolling block No. 5 ethier a 1905 or 1910 version.
I bought it off a gunshow table. The seller did not know the cartridge identity or even the bore size.
It turned out to be 38 special chamber.

For 357 magnum the max charge Alliant listed for 158 gr JHP was 6.7 gr Bullseye 33,100 psi

In this rifle I have shot 11 gr Bullseye with 38 special brass.
The brass does not fail, but the small rifle magnum primer does at that charge.

[Texas by God]

When the gas leaks past the side of the primer, it ruins the brass and flame cuts the breech face as well. Too late then to sneak up on max.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[ddixie884]

I shoot 11gr 2400 under commercial 160gr swc in .38spl cases in my M-15 S&W. It is a good load, needs a firm crimp.

[Soundguy]

Depends, how many psi are in a cup?

;)

[robertbank]

The Lyman 42nd edition Reloading manual lists a max load of 8.0 gr of Unique for the Lyman 358156, and gives a velocity of 1250 fps for the 357 magnum. It also lists a max load of--- gr Herco, for 1388 fps. I really wonder what the pressures are for those loads.

The 4th Edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook lists 7.5 Grains of Herco as the MAXIMUM with a pressure if 41,000CUP 1151 FPS. Not sure why the variance but is seems to be significant. The 7.5 MAX is also listed in the 3rd Edition as well.

Take Care

Bob

[Minerat]

My Lyman cast bullet #4 lists max Herco load for the 358156 as 7.5 gr at 41000 cpu's in a 357 mag. I'd question the 11gr.

[robertbank]

That 11 grain of 2400 in 38 Special with a 158 grain boolit comes right out of the Lyman 44th handbook. It also lists 15 grains of 2400 for the same boolit in a 357 mag.
My 49th edition lists 8.3 grains as max for a 38 special and 14.0 grains for the 357 mag using the same boolit.
The early numbers have been lowered due to new testing standards.

Tazman go back and read the referenced post. He isn't talking about 2400 he is talking about Herco.

Take Care

Bob

[tazman]

Tazman go back and read the referenced post. He isn't talking about 2400 he is talking about Herco.

Take Care

Bob

My mistake. Post deleted.
I referenced the wrong post.

[tazman]

I shoot 11gr 2400 under commercial 160gr swc in .38spl cases in my M-15 S&W. It is a good load, needs a firm crimp.

That 11 grain of 2400 in 38 Special with a 158 grain boolit comes right out of the Lyman 44th handbook. It also lists 15 grains of 2400 for the same boolit in a 357 mag.
My 49th edition lists 8.3 grains as max for a 38 special and 14.0 grains for the 357 mag using the same boolit.
The early numbers have been lowered due to new testing standards.