Need help with throat/leade slug

[scrapcan]

I have been trying to get a good slug of a Chech 22/98 Mauser in 8x57 and am havinga devil of a time. I have a great slug of groves/lands from one end to the other, barrel seams pretty good no real tite or loose spots, or atleast there may be so much fouling remaining that is appears to be in good shape (that is a question for another post). Diameters as mic'd are .325 grooves and .312-.314 lands.

The trouble I am having is that I cannot get the slug to expand and give good definition when using the pound slug method. I was using straight lead wire of .25 inch bumped to just fit in barrel about 1 inch long. Am I using to long of a slug? Is there a better way to do this, like using a tapered slug or???

Just need some help. I thought I would use the old surp rifle to gete over my fear of putting soething in the barrel and poundign with a Hammer! I have 3 other barrels in 8x57 incase I really screw up.

Thanks for your help.

[JDL]

manleyjt,
If you mean it projects 1" out of the case, it is probably too long. Here's the way I do a lead slug of the throat.
(1)I use a case that has been fired in the rifle and cut a hardwood dowel, of a size that will just fit into the case mouth, the length of which only leaves about half of the neck to start the slug in.
(2) I use a pure lead slug, usually cast from one of my molds, put it into the neck and lightly oil it. This helps removal but, don't overlube. Close the action and insert a brass or steel rod into the muzzle, that has duct tape at intervals so the rod won't contact the bore.
(3) Use light taps with a fairly heavy hammer to upset the slug, giving an impression of the throat and about 1/4" of the bore. When the rod kind of bounces, it is ready.
(4) Open the action and it is possible you will have to lightly tap the rod to get it to open fully to free the slug. -JDL

[StarMetal]

To get a true picture of what your leade in and throat looks like you may need a longer slug then the suggested pure lead 8mm bullet. Here's what to do. find a drill bit that is close as possible to the bore diameter (not grooves ) That would be something like you stated you measured .312 to .314. Drill a hole in the a piece of wood that is deep enough that the sluge will get the impression of the throate, leade in, some of the beginnning rifling. Pour it in the hole you drilled and if it overflows a bit don't worry just file that flush after it has cooled. Then whap the board hard on a hard surface to extract your pure lead slug by inertia. Then process as JDL stated. You might use a metal dowel inside the case though or fill the case with molten alloy to halfway up the neck. Then go ahead and seat your slug and chamber and pound on the rod. You might want to put a mark on the rod just ahead of the muzzle to see how much it compresses the lead slug. You can tell when you got it pretty compressed, the rod feels solid when you pound on it. Don't worry about doing alot of easy taps on the rod, you're not going to hurt anything.

Let us know how it works out.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

Have you pounded on the slug until the lead tries to squeeze in between the rod and the bore wall?

If not -- get a bigger hammer.

I use a six pound steel sledge hammer and I do mushroom the "hitting end" of the 7/32 rod before I am done. It ain't no gentle pounding -- not at all. I do put a bevel on the end of the rod where it hits the slug and I space the first tape row up the rod about a quarter of an inch to allow for the lead "blow by" that will take place when you properly pound a slug.

Take care to tape your rod to be real good slip type fit at bottom (2 rows) middle (2 rows) and top (2 rows) such that your rod CANNOT possibly contact your rifling as it bows under the force of the blows.

Some folks do like cerrosafe castings instead, they can't see pounding on their favorite gun all that much .....

[SharpsShooter]

fill the case with molten alloy to halfway up the neck.


I like the idea of filling the case with alloy. That would sure give you a solid platform to perform the job.

:D

[StarMetal]

Yeah the case full of alloy is more solid. About the pound, think if you have a 6 pound hammer and with the velocity it gets from you little swing, it may hit with the force of say 10-12 pounds. In reality that's not more then what the rifle would recoil in pounds from a factory jacketed round. I feel a whole bunch of little pounds are better, it's easier on the rod for one thing.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

Plus, filling the fired case with alloy means the pounding action expands the case neck as well, giving you a good permanent fix on your chamber neck diameter (something you may not get otherwise).

And do you think a wooden dowel is going to readily withstand the sort of forces that make solid cold lead slug squish like playdough? Crushed wood pulp is a likely result of a proper pounding job done over a wooden dowel.

Oldfeller

[scrapcan]

I am using a case filled with WW. the slug I am using is about 1 inch long on top of the filled case. have been using a steel rod that was upset to just fit in bore. used 3.5 lb sledge to deform slug. slug is pure lead. letting hammer do the work as not to cause problems (learned that from shoeing horses, let the hammer do the work that is a staement that is like the wax on wax off of the Karate Kid movies).

I can tell the difference in the blows after deformation. I get that ringing feel instead of the dull thump. When I knock the slug out I cannot see the leade or the grooves/lands. I do see the space between the case neck and the chamber neck, and form that it looks like I can let my case length be longer (I am making brass from LC 06 brass because I have a bazillion of those).

Should I get a nice form of the critical area of the bore? coul dit be that the barrel is that washed out? Just curious as to why I am not having much luck. I wanted to try it on the old beast instead of a good smooth barrel to get the hang of things.

Oldfeller,

I had not thought of using the hardwood block for a mould, that will be my next step to make slugs. I have a 22-250 and a 7mm-06 that i would like to do this with also.

I have noticed that the neck is expanded quite alot on surp ammo. Should I open up the dies to keep from having to work the brass so much? I was concerned that if I open the sizer die and then left the CB's large enough to keep neck tension (323366, drop sat .327) then I would be too large for the bore and could cause problems (leading and higher pressures). Do I have anything to be concerned about?

Thanks for your help.

[wills]

A self described "Cranky machinist" told me to use a brass rod and just lift it a few inches and let it drop. We were discussing BPCRS bullets and the softer alloy may make a difference.

[StarMetal]

Still sounds like your slug isn't long enough. When I slug my rifles that way I get an impression of the chamber in the case mouth area, the throat, the leade in, and the first part of the rifling. Don't forget some of these military rifle have very long throats.

That brass rod dropping method is very much what I was talking about with a bunch of light hammer blows.

You know the feel now, when that thud goes to a ring you know you have that slug compressed.

You fellows ever make a ring out of a quarter with a wee little hammer and milllions of little blows? I'm done alot of them, but that shows you how a lot of little blows can take it's toll on metal.

Joe

[versifier]

Not that I'm an expert at this, but wouldn't you get a better impression of bore/throat/lead/neck using cerosafe to make a casting? It comes out very easily and you can make exact measurements an hour later. It seems to me it would be a lot easier than all that slugging and pounding, wouldn't it?

[StarMetal]

No....this pounding method takes longer to explain then do. It's really a pretty simple easy procedure, especially if you've done it before. You know how it is on this board, you get explanation after explanation for how to do something.

Joe

[SharpsShooter]

Not that I'm an expert at this, but wouldn't you get a better impression of bore/throat/lead/neck using cerosafe to make a casting? It comes out very easily and you can make exact measurements an hour later. It seems to me it would be a lot easier than all that slugging and pounding, wouldn't it?


You can slug a bore in less than five minutes. I've not tried a throat yet, but I don't think it would take an hour

[scrapcan]

Thanks Starmetal. I will try a longer slug using Oldfeller's method of casting it to bore size.

I am with you guys on the pound slug versus the use of cerrosafe. I have done several cerrosafe casts and find that shrink can be a problem. That is why I finally decided to do the pound slug. Another nice Item is that you don't need to use the hot water bath to melt the cerrosafe. All I had to do was cut the lead wire, bump it up a bit, slide the filled case in the chamber, slide the rod in the barrel, use the hammer, open the bolt and knock out slug.

From start to finish including bumping the slug and the rod to bore diameter, took about 15 minutes total. That time can be knocked down with Statmetals suggestion and filling a case each time you have your pot hot (since case filller can be ww). Took longer to get a bore slug. Now if I can just get a good slug of the leade.

This is why I like this site. You get all kinds of methods to do what you need. You never know ehen you might need to try something new to solve a problem.

You have helped me solve two. Making the slugs close to bore diameter and making sure I use a long enough slug to get a good slug.

thanks

[slughammer]

have been using a steel rod that was upset to just fit in bore.


I use a 1/4 drill rod in .30 bore. Wrap the drill rod with electric tape every couple of inches to keep the steel from touching the bore.

While the pound slug is great for getting the chamber length and throat length in relation to the OAL for the cartridge, you need to be carefull of the diameter readings. If you open the bolt and have to use the rod to help extract the case, that may mean that the lead is now a press fit into the throat and the diameter may be larger than the throat. If you open the bolt and it extracts easily, maybe it wasn't pounded enough?

I think for a bolt action 30 cal, the best way to get accurate measurements of the throat and chamber neck DIAMETERS is to drive a pure lead .38 cal slug up into the throat. Very quick and easy to do and you can do it several times to make sure you are doing it correctly.

[Bret4207]

I know cerrosafe has some shrinkage issues, don't we all. I recall reading somewhere that canning or candle wax has very little to no shrinkage and could be used like cerrosafe but required warming the metal with a heat lamp or gun to about 130 degrees. Anyone else know or recall this? Might have been on one of the maching boards.

[scrapcan]

Just thought I would see what good ideas people have for making a drive plug for checking the barrel critical diameters. I have been using oval shapped slip sinkers made of soft lead. Have had some trouble making sure that the slug compresses and fills the void in the middle. I have also used pure lead round balls with good success. Any other ideas.

Tpr. Bret - that goes along with the episode of Seinfeld where george just got out of the pool and gets caught with his shorts down " i just got out of the pool". I guess we should all learn to better live with our difficiencies.

On cerrosafe- I have read many times that you want to be careful to not get it too hot. How do you know if it is too hot? Does it change chemically? Does it change in the amount of expansion, ect..?

Thanks for all the help. It is appreciated.