H&R: What the heck happened?

[am44mag]

It's been what, 3 years now since H&R shut down, and I still haven't heard of a good reason why. Their business model seemed pretty solid. Sell single shot rifles in a large variety of calibers that would otherwise be inaccessible in a $300 price range. They seemed like they were everywhere, sold them by the truck load, and they were perfect for experimenting with prototype wildcats due to their cheap price and versatility.

What the heck happened to them? Was it just a warning sign to what's happening to Remington and Marlin now?

I'm hoping the new Henry rifles fill that gap and come down in price a bit.

[sparky45]

From Wikipedia:
In the 1960s H&R was acquired by the Kidde corporation and run by the Rowe family. Warranty cards were sent to 'Industrial Rowe', Gardner, Massachusetts.[3] The original H&R company went out of business in 1986, and the building was demolished.[4]

A new company, H&R 1871, Inc., was formed in 1991 and started production of revolvers, single-shot rifles and shotguns using original H&R designs. H&R 1871, Inc. assets were subsequently sold to H&R 1871, LLC., a Connecticut LLC owned by Marlin Firearms Company in November 2000. H&R 1871, LLC. did not extend their product warranty to H&R guns made prior to the LLC's takeover.

Marlin, including all its H&R assets, was later acquired by Remington Arms Company in December, 2007. H&R 1871, LLC production was moved to Ilion, N.Y. (the site of Remington's original manufacturing plant) in late 2008, while their corporate offices are co-located with Remington Arms in Madison, N.C. (HR1871.com and Remington.com).[citation needed] Remington, along with its Marlin and H&R subsidiaries, are now part of the Remington Outdoor Company. H&R 1871 production ceased 27 February 2015.

So, with Remington in charge, I'd say they'll not be made again.

[am44mag]

From Wikipedia:
In the 1960s H&R was acquired by the Kidde corporation and run by the Rowe family. Warranty cards were sent to 'Industrial Rowe', Gardner, Massachusetts.[3] The original H&R company went out of business in 1986, and the building was demolished.[4]

A new company, H&R 1871, Inc., was formed in 1991 and started production of revolvers, single-shot rifles and shotguns using original H&R designs. H&R 1871, Inc. assets were subsequently sold to H&R 1871, LLC., a Connecticut LLC owned by Marlin Firearms Company in November 2000. H&R 1871, LLC. did not extend their product warranty to H&R guns made prior to the LLC's takeover.

Marlin, including all its H&R assets, was later acquired by Remington Arms Company in December, 2007. H&R 1871, LLC production was moved to Ilion, N.Y. (the site of Remington's original manufacturing plant) in late 2008, while their corporate offices are co-located with Remington Arms in Madison, N.C. (HR1871.com and Remington.com).[citation needed] Remington, along with its Marlin and H&R subsidiaries, are now part of the Remington Outdoor Company. H&R 1871 production ceased 27 February 2015.

So, with Remington in charge, I'd say they'll not be made again.

It's pretty sad to say that America's oldest gun maker has gone from making extremely good guns to ruining the firearms industry. I won't even risk buying anything they or Marlin make because it seems like they don't even bother to do quality control anymore.

[cwlongshot]

It's pretty sad to say that America's oldest gun maker has gone from making extremely good guns to ruining the firearms industry. I won't even risk buying anything they or Marlin make because it seems like they don't even bother to do quality control anymore. I agree 100%.

ONLY Remingtons or Marlins I'll buy will be used and OLDER!

Its a Cryin' shame about H&R/NEF... Flipin penny pinchers...

CW

[jaguarxk120]

Remember they (Remington) is in there to make money.
And making firearms is how they do it.
If a line is loosing money or it is a wash, that line is soon gone.
Bottom line is money, if they could make more selling fake gold bricks then the gun lines would be gone.

[KenH]

........ Bottom line is money, if they could make more selling fake gold bricks then the gun lines would be gone.

Sums it up nicely

[cwlongshot]

Sums it up nicely

Then why buy a loosing company in the first place...


CW

[oldred]

loosing???

[indian joe]

Then why buy a loosing company in the first place...


CW

1) Get rid of the competition! 2) once you own the opposition why sell a $300H&R unit if you think you can place a $700 Marlin in the same slot - ?

Subaru did this in Australia - the little Brumby utes sold like hotcakes (call em Brats your side) but we had import quotas based on numbers of units so they ditched the Brumby at $12K retail and filled the quota with top end Outbacks retail $50+ .....blamed it on our pollution regs at the time but that was total BS cuz they kept putting em into California for years after ----could have been some kind of deal between them and Toyota in it too .......bottom line is ........bean counters are first, last, and only, interested in bottom line.
Another interesting story would be WHY is Australia one of only two countries on the planet absolutely denied access to sell firearms into the US? - I have a LC Smith, and a couple winchesters would make good money over there and would pay for a trip for me - cant do it - I am allowed to take em over to "compete" and once there, would be no trouble finding a cash buyer - but jail here if I dont come home with exactly what I took over. To cap it off we dont have a viable gun industry - cartainly no threat to Remlin .

[WebMonkey]

loosing???

as opposed to tighting

[oldred]

1).......bottom line is ........bean counters are first, last, and only, interested in bottom line.

Yep you nailed it, buy out and eliminate the competition has been a business strategy for ages! Sure they could have continued to build and sell H&Rs but the lower priced models are rarely if ever as profitable as upper-end higher priced models of just about anything including firearms. The "Bean counters" have obviously determined (right or wrong) that sales of the cheaper H&Rs will actually cause them to lose money overall due to fewer and more profitable Remington sales rather than the H&Rs being an additional source of income. So the bottom line was that H&R sales were cutting into Remington sales and thus profits also so since they couldn't compete with H&R they simply decided to buy them out and shut down the competition.

[oldred]

as opposed to tighting

Or as opposed to losing.:wink:

[TenTea]

Or as opposed to losing.:wink:

winning! :-0

[725]

Seems like the wiz-kids - bean counters never allow for the unintended consequences. They bought out a viable H&R Co., destroyed it with the intention of replacing it with Rem-lins, which sounds like an aggressive business plan, but sours gun guys to the point they will never buy another recently produced Rem-lin. Way to go bone head.

[oldred]

Seems like the wiz-kids - bean counters never allow for the unintended consequences. They bought out a viable H&R Co., destroyed it with the intention of replacing it with Rem-lins, which sounds like an aggressive business plan, but sours gun guys to the point they will never buy another recently produced Rem-lin. Way to go bone head.


Although it didn't involve buying another company to eliminate competition it's similar to what Ford did by eliminating the extremely popular Ranger pickup truck (DUMB move!), the thinking was (by their own admission) that since people couldn't get a new Ranger they would just opt for the much more expensive and more profitable per unit F150. The "Bean Counters" had determined that profits lost from Ranger sales would be more than made up by increased F150 sales so in the end they would make more money, of course folks just bought Toyotas and Nissians instead and now Ford is being forced to bring back the Ranger to recover lost profits!

Remington only sold H&Rs for a short time before shutting them down and maybe it was an advantage to their bottom line but it sure seems like a dumb move to shut down such a hot selling line of firearms and I seriously doubt many, if any, potential H&R customers chose Remingtons instead because of the product differences, but then who knows?

[sukivel]

I thought Remington bought a package deal that involved several companies, including Marlin and H & R...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldred]

They did but for whatever their reasoning they evidently thought it more profitable to drop H&R and concentrate on Remington/Marlin. They had their reasons and they may have it right, who knows?

[uscra112]

Remington is still owned by Cerberus. Big-money holding companies like that impose a "tax" on every company they own to pay the salaries of their executives. It's a factor that killed the American machine tool industry in the '70s and '80s, (I was there, to quote Elmer). They also do a game called "asset-stripping" which means to sell off plants and tools for cash, which they keep. This is what Daimler-Benz did to Chrysler Corp., (I was there, too) which was then sold on to.......Cerberus, who stripped it some more, and that's why the fine old name of Chrysler is now owned by Fiat, and is soon to be reduced to selling Jeeps and Ram trucks, according to what I read.

[Bent Ramrod]

Companies at least used to bring their Management up through the ranks. Whether as good as the company founder or not, they at least knew something about the business they were running when they were promoted to the top.

Reading business magazines in the 80’s was when I noticed the rise of the generic, roving, whatever-you-got,-I’ll-manage-it Manager. He would go from company to company, always available for the right salary, stock options and Golden Parachute. Never looking beyond his computer spreadsheet and the Bottom Line, he would proceed to dump the parts of the business that didn’t bring in a 16% a year rate of return and can all the old employees, replacing them with new young MBAs that would (theoretically) do more work for less money. Since the businesses themselves were being bought up by holding companies that just looked on them as cash cows, these itinerant gunslingers seemed the perfect solution.

Most of the instances that reached the general news media were the huge success stories about how so-and-so had “turned the faltering company around.” The business mags reported on everything, though, and not infrequently, this cleanup job resulted in the loss of the corporate culture and the production of ever more shoddy versions of whatever products were left, since the new hires, degrees not withstanding, didn’t know what they were doing in these specific instances.

I think it was Union Carbide that got one of these hired guns in. By the time he was done spinning things off and cleaning things up, there was no more Union Carbide left. And I remember a quote from an old-line manager who had come up through the ranks and was asked if he didn’t think his company could use some help from some savvy MBAs. He said all that one of those hotshots would do would be to sit in his office, thumb through his Rolodex and use his phones to network for a higher paying job somewhere else. Then he’d be gone. No morals or loyalty anymore.

In our area, the Lyman Corp. was bought out by something called the Leisure Group. They noticed the tool room in the mould dept was full of cherries that were rarely used. The amortization calculations didn’t pan out, so they tossed them out, just a couple years before the rise of interest in old calibers. Somebody could have noted the increasing popularity of Ken Waters’ column “Loading the Old Ones,” but of course these were busy men, with no time for frivolous hobbies. Those boneheads get full credit for the rise of the custom mould makers whose services we now enjoy.

People have remarked that Ruger did so well in the gun field for so many years because Bill Ruger was a gun enthusiast himself. He didn’t need “market research” to tell him what would sell. Unfortunately, the Bean Counters inevitably take over, and not many of them are interested in guns as guns, only as units of sale.

I think this changeover is happening in the Computer field as well. These Macs used to be nice and intuitive to use. Now every App and Upgrade that gets pushed onto my Devices makes them harder to use.

[uscra112]

Great post, B.R. ! Sooo true. I was reading the Harvard Business Review cover to cover about the same time, and learned the same thing.

Long ago my father-in-law, who had been president of a large Boston bank in his day, remarked to me that he would never hire Harvard MBAs. They were impossible to retrain.

[Bent Ramrod]

A lot of space in the Biz Mags of the time was taken up by tales of the success of IBM’s “mentoring program” and Massey-Ferguson’s “mentoring program,” and so on.

The bitter Manager notwithstanding, a lot of these degreed kids were in full possession of the American work ethic, and their academic knowledge represented a huge potential benefit. But they did need someone who’d been around the works for years to show them where their abilities would do well, or not. Just plunking them down in a seat and telling them to save the Company generally resulted in the purchase of a giant mainframe computer and the necessity of getting everybody trained on it for “efficiency,” when a close look at product line processes and a few tweaks would have been much more beneficial in the short run.

It can actually be the stuff of workplace sitcoms sometimes. A friend started in the QA Department of a large auto manufacturer and is now a grey eminence in Engineering. How, one might ask, does a guy with a BA in Chemistry become an automobile engineer? A kid will come in with a fantastic new design for a Water Pump. “I’m gonna bolt this right here on the engine casting!” the kid would say, excitedly, pointing to a space on a blueprint.

The friend says to the kid, “That’s a great design, all right, but you might go to Cubicle 27, Row 16 and talk to Joe Doakes. He has a fabulous design for a Fuel Pump, and he plans to bolt it right there where you want to bolt your Water Pump. On the other hand, there’s plenty of space on the opposite side of the engine casting; why don’t you consult with your colleague and see if one of these Pumps can be moved over there?” Three hours later, both kids are back in the friend’s office, with a revised blueprint with one Pump on one side and the other one the other. “Wow, John; you’re a genius!”

And I guess, given the circumstances, he is. At least the car didn’t come off the production line with two Pumps in the same place. All it takes is years of experience. People tend not to value that nowadays.

[richhodg66]

"In our area, the Lyman Corp. was bought out by something called the Leisure Group. They noticed the tool room in the mould dept was full of cherries that were rarely used. The amortization calculations didn’t pan out, so they tossed them out, just a couple years before the rise of interest in old calibers. Somebody could have noted the increasing popularity of Ken Waters’ column “Loading the Old Ones,” but of course these were busy men, with no time for frivolous hobbies. Those boneheads get full credit for the rise of the custom mould makers whose services we now enjoy."

I did not know this, but it seems to be a blessing in disguise for we bullet casters. Honestly, NOE and others offer anything you could possibly want, in an easier to cast with mold for about the same cost.

As for the demise of the H&R singles, is there a correlation between their demise and the introduction of the super cheap and good bolt actions like the Savage Axis and Ruger American line? If I were the casual shooter looking to just deer hunt a few days a year and I could get a repeating bolt action with scope for the same money or less than a break open single shot, it would be a no brainer. Not all of the customer base are hard core gun nuts like most of us on here are. I believe Rossi dropped theirs pretty shortly after the H&Rs went away too.

[dragon813gt]

Is there any proof that H&R sold a lot of rifles? I don’t know anyone that has one. When asked most of the people I know have never even heard of them. They seemed to have been a niche firearm. Not that they all aren’t to some extent. Single shots fell out of favor a long time ago. I realize my experiences are solely mine and may be different in other areas of the country. It’s just that I’ve never seen them as being a popular item that sells a lot.

[merlin101]

Is there any proof that H&R sold a lot of rifles? I don’t know anyone that has one. When asked most of the people I know have never even heard of them. They seemed to have been a niche firearm. Not that they all aren’t to some extent. Single shots fell out of favor a long time ago. I realize my experiences are solely mine and may be different in other areas of the country. It’s just that I’ve never seen them as being a popular item that sells a lot.

A "niche" yeah , I'll go with that. Even with that in mind they still did well. I have a couple H&Rs and know a couple guys that have probably a couple dozen combined. My biggest complaint with them is the weight.

[Leadmelter]

Greed. Cerberus took over Chyrsler and immediately cut 2 or three models. We are so smart but they had nothing to replace them with. Bad. Plants closed, workers laid off, dark days in Motown.
Now they brought back the Pacfica to replace the Caravan.
If you want to read how corporate America works or don"t, read the saga of GE, Under Jack Welch, it was built into a powerhouse of industry. Jeff I, Welch's hand picked successor ran it into the ground in less than ten years.
Leadmelter
MI

[Tom W.]

I didn't have H&R, but did have two NEF, one 30/30 and one .270. I also had two Ruger #1B rifles, one 30-06 and a 7mm RemMag. Oh. and a Savage Model 12 S/S .308 that I shot 1K yard targets with. I prefer a single shot rifle.

[dbosman]

My hope for inexpensive single shots, is/was the Turkish shotguns (quality varies with actual manufacturer) that Walmart was selling.
I wonder if those could be sleeved? For straight wall pistol calibers, in particular.

[GhostHawk]

I think H&R/NEF was in part a regional thing.

Some places they were a popular lower cost option, other places, not so much.

I guess I got started with them because they offered a pretty good variety of pistol calibers.

.357 mag, .44mag, .45 colt, as of this writing I have 1 .357, a pair of .44mags and a .45colt.
Along with a .223, .300bo, 7.62x39, .444marlin just for starters.

Last fall I had a virtually new combo .30-30 and 20 ga walk in my door. Guy who owns the house next to me (he rents it) got offered 125$ at our local pawn shop. I gave him 300$ cash and we were both tickled.

Mostly I am not interested in the higher speed calibers that everyone has. .270, .308 .30-06.
.35 and up shoots great with cast lead and low end loads of Red Dot. Easy to load, easy on the pocket, easy on the shoulder, and on a good day, terrific accuracy.

Good enough for me.

Most of mine were in the 2-300$ range, although I have paid up to 400$ for just a barrel, .45 colt. Worth every penny IMO, and shoots like a million bucks.

Depends on what you like.

[Rick Hodges]

I bought a scoped .223 Rem H&R for my brother to use....he has a ground hog problem. (had?)
The only reason I purchased it....Gander mountain was going out of business and it was brand new $175/out the door with two boxes of ammo. It is a serviceable fairly accurate rifle and serves the purpose of ridding his place of vermin within 200 yds or so. The price was the key.....for 300 I would have purchased a Savage or Ruger American.

[marlinman93]

A lot of what's been said here is true, but it's nothing new either. Some seem to think this corporate mentality is a new thing, but it's existed since factories existed! Winchester bought numerous companies and then simply closed them down. Had it not been for Marcellus Hartley and the financial backing of UMC, Winchester would have shut down Remington when Winchester and Hartley/UMC purchased Remington out of bankruptcy. Other companies that Winchester purchased without a partner involved were quickly shut down.

[MFGordon]

My memory may fail me, but I remember that prior to acquiring Marlin (and also NEF) Remington was importing Russian made Baikal single shot rifles and shotguns and selling them under their name. Might this have had something to do with them end production of the Handi rifle since they wer importing a competitive product at a much lower cost?

[rfd]

the H&R buff classic was THE super cheap toe-in-the-door to bpcr/tr - sadly, a spot no longer filled.

[Jeff Michel]

My memory may fail me, but I remember that prior to acquiring Marlin (and also NEF) Remington was importing Russian made Baikal single shot rifles and shotguns and selling them under their name. Might this have had something to do with them end production of the Handi rifle since they wer importing a competitive product at a much lower cost?

The Baikal line of firearms (Spartan) were much higher cost than anything NEF/H&R offered. President Obama stopped the importation, that probably killed that line. No pistol calibers were offered, just conventional calibers and a smattering of metrics. Nostalgia aside, H&R probably didn't sell as many as everyone seems to think. Sure they have a following but if your choices are a Savage Axis/Ruger Ranch or a H&R single shot for the same money, most folks are going for the repeater with the better trigger. If a product isn't making money, why would a company produce it? Tastes change for everything, not just firearms and there will always be someone lamenting the passing of their favorite brand of whatever. My neighbor still complains that Oliver and Studebaker went out of business but in defiance of that fact, he has
both the tractor and the pickup truck and uses them both. If you like H&R, buy them and enjoy the to the hilt, there are a million on the used market, don't get hung up on the fact they aren't being produced.

[cwlongshot]

Well they surely ruined a good thing in the eyes of many consumers...

I had at one time 34 individual H&R & NEF's. Rimfires, shotguns and rifles. I enjoyed the hell outta them. I have since sold off most and down to just 6-8 of my favorites and customs that likely wont be going anywhere. I swore off Remington's, NEW Remington's many years ago and Dropped Marlin like a Hot potato when they sold and quality went in the crapper with all the damaged machines and parts. I had quite a few Marlins too at one time...

CW

[EDG]

I think the NEFs were mostly popular in the southeastern US.
If you hang out at Greybeards you would notice a high percentage of owners in Miss and Ala.
From my own experience they may decent utility shotguns but were not fit for heavy use with high pressure rifle rounds.
NEF engineering and manufacturing processes were shabby compared to any modern standard.

[John Boy]

the H&R buff classic was THE super cheap toe-in-the-door to bpcr/tr - sadly, a spot no longer filled.
Henry filled the void nicely - more expensive though. Why no 32-20's or 38-55's is beyond me though
https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/single-shot-rifle/

I bought the H&R 'El Cheapo' Classic & Target Model as my 1st BPCR's. Both with Green Mountain barrels and accurate as no get out. First range visit with the Classic - 600yds a 7.5" x4" five shot group in the 7 ring with 3 holes that could be covered by a silver dollar with 2 club member witnesses. The start of my love affair with single shots

[oldred]

I have not been all that impressed with Henry's, seems to me they are more of a high quality sales pitch than quality rifles but even I have to admit those single shot rifles are really good looking guns. I have not seen one "in person" yet but I am willing to bet they are at least as good as the H&R/NEF and a LOT better looking!

I got burned out with Henry's after seeing a family member's Henry 22 lever gun, underneath that FAKE brass cover is a very cheap looking potmetal reciever that is unimpressive to say the least. Then there are those absurd ads where they talk as if the company is a descendant of the original Henry which is simply NOT true, if there is a descendant at all of the original Henry it would be Winchester and even that's a bit of a stretch.

Still those single shot rifles look as if they just might find a spot if they don't price themselves out of the market.

[Tripplebeards]

Had three. My first shotgun, a 410. Then a 223 varmint laminated, and a 10 gauge. All sold. Fun cheap guns with triggers you couldn't adjust. Wish I had them all back.

[Hickory]

Remington is still owned by Cerberus. Big-money holding companies like that impose a "tax" on every company they own to pay the salaries of their executives. It's a factor that killed the American machine tool industry in the '70s and '80s, (I was there, to quote Elmer). They also do a game called "asset-stripping" which means to sell off plants and tools for cash, which they keep. This is what Daimler-Benz did to Chrysler Corp., (I was there, too) which was then sold on to.......Cerberus, who stripped it some more, and that's why the fine old name of Chrysler is now owned by Fiat, and is soon to be reduced to selling Jeeps and Ram trucks, according to what I read.

Big fish eat little fish.
A lot of times the big fish are bad fish.

[Walter Laich]

Remember they (Remington) is in there to make money.
And making firearms is how they do it.
If a line is loosing money or it is a wash, that line is soon gone.
Bottom line is money, if they could make more selling fake gold bricks then the gun lines would be gone.

what are they asking for those fake gold bricks these days??

[Good Cheer]

For a good low cost single shot I'm about ready to try clamp-on mounts and pistol scope on a Traditions Deerhunter. Half inch is better holes than I'd prefer but hey they'll be easier to see in the target.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm still waiting for somebody to fill the gap. Thompson Center is far too expensive. Henry missed the mark, and everything else is bottom of the barrel garbage. I miss when you could buy a H&R 2 barrel combo for under $200, send it in to have 2 more barrels fitted, and you then had every gun you would ever need for less than the new cheap bolt actions. I hate bolt actions anyway, but Henry priced theirs too high. Get rid of the fancy wood, nice finish and polishing. A single shot should be inexpensive (not cheap), especially if you are going to turn your nose up to a switch barrel which is half the joy of a break action anyway. When I saw Remington was filing bankruptcy, I immediately thought of H&R. One can only hope.

[WarEagleEd]

In our area, the Lyman Corp. was bought out by something called the Leisure Group. They noticed the tool room in the mould dept was full of cherries that were rarely used. The amortization calculations didn’t pan out, so they tossed them out, just a couple years before the rise of interest in old calibers. Somebody could have noted the increasing popularity of Ken Waters’ column “Loading the Old Ones,” but of course these were busy men, with no time for frivolous hobbies. Those boneheads get full credit for the rise of the custom mould makers whose services we now enjoy.

Hopefully, what Bent Ramrod said in the quote above will be the case for the H&R line of guns. Perhaps someone will see an opportunity with the demand for these guns and start producing a viable replacement.

I'm tired of large companies and their focus on profit margins and the pursuit of wealth without tempering it with morality or responsibility (or any positive/constructive human trait or emotion). It seems that the "unrestricted" pursuit of profit margins leaves a lot of destruction in its path that can come awful close to nihilism.

[Walks]

I agree with OLDRED about the henry rifles. They are just pot metal inside covered by shiny paint.
I have 3 NEF Single Shot Rifles, all with extra bbl's. When Jim Garrison restarted H&R in 1991 he offered extra bbl's for new made guns. If you sent back a rifle you could get an extra bbl of the same or lesser pressure range as the original rifle. I had a .223 Rifle fitted with a .45-70 bbl. A .30-30 fitted with a 20gauge bbl. And a .25-06 fitted with a .35 Whelen bbl.
In the early 1990's the H&R Buffalo Classic's were big seller's among Cowboy Action Shooters. The .38-55 too.
Regardless of what wikipedia said NEF never made handguns, outside of a few starter pistols made from existing parts.
It 's a shame REMINGTON killed the Brand. Those turkish single shots were even crappier then the rossi's. But then rossi quality bounces like a rubber ball.

The only reason henry sells rifles is there is no longer any competition.
The WIN 94 is more then 3 times the price it was when they shut the plant doors at the beginning of 2006.

Maybe with the influx of cash Remington will get from the new U.S. Gov't Contracts for M-4 Carbines for sale to the U.S. ARMY, that will be passed on to our smaller Allies some things will improve. We can only hope.

[pietro]

Is there any proof that H&R sold a lot of rifles? I don’t know anyone that has one.

Single shots fell out of favor a long time ago.




You must lead a sheltered life...…. ;)

H&R has been constantly making firearms since 1871, even through the company/product has changed hands 3 or 4 times before the latest owner, Remington, shut down the production of their products.

Think about that for a minute -

Why would large factories be built & used for 114 years, if the facilities weren't needed ?

Why would 3 or 4 different owners buy a losing company ? (except as a tax break/loss for the buying corporation)

H&R was so successful in their "niche" that several other companies jumped into making break-open single-shot's, selling their products at H&R's breakpoint, or a little less.


I would presume that H&R's sales fell enough due to the myriad competitor's to warrant closure by the owners of Remington. (yeah, many firearms companies, among others, are owned by some unheard of investment group - who are quick to drop anything viewed as a loser.)



.

[rfd]

the H&R buff classic was THE bottom feeder entry rifle into BPCR. large corporations are lead by their stockholders, who's bottom line is making as much money as quickly as possible. there are no underlying stockholder good intentions about products or services. many a good product has be cut down needlessly - add H&R handi rifles to that list. it is what it is.

while one could spend $250 to $400 for a CVA hunter or henry s/s, neither are BPCR entry guns. a tippmann roller is $1k, and still is not a BPCR gun. aside from searching for a used gun, getting into competitive BPCR will run $1200 for just the rifle (pedersoli) and then another $500 to $800 for accoutrements. this expense really shuts the door on those with at least a mild interest in such guns and cartridges, and why they find more dollar value in a cheap bolt action, cheap scope, cheap ammo.

[uscra112]

H&R was never a powerhouse company anyway. From WW2 and thru Vietnam they got by on D.o.D. contracting. Having been in such a company myself, I can attest that it's a lousy way to stay competitive in the free market. That kind of thing killed Hopkins and Allen, and also Packard.

According to Wiki, the original company actually went toes-up Chapter 7 in the mid-80s. In 1991 a new company was formed using the name and intellectual property to make guns according to the old drawings - cheap revolvers and shotguns. The beloved Handi was just a subset of the shotgun line, albeit with a stronger frame. THAT company's assets were sold to yet another new company, using the same name, wholly owned by Marlin, in 2000. This has the smell to me of a strategy for avoiding bankruptcy by using the Massachusetts "bulk sale act", something I know about having once been the beneficiary of such a transaction. Once Marlin had been sucked up by Remington in 2007, the Handi was destined to be an orphan, IMHO. Within a company like Remington, a product has to have a management "champion" to fight for capital investment, create marketing plans, etc., and the H&R Handi being a subset of a subset of a subset, my guess would be that no manager with an eye on promotion would have touched it. Would be nice if some entrepreneur were to buy the design and using modern CNC methods start making it again, but it won't be cheap, unless it's all done offshore.

[megasupermagnum]

I agree with OLDRED about the henry rifles. They are just pot metal inside covered by shiny paint.

What are you even talking about? Some rimfires are a cover, but they look fantastic. The centerfires as far as I'm aware are solid brass. There is no coating anywhere on a Henry. Pot metal? You mean a cast metal frame like 90% of the industry has used for 100 years?

No wonder H&R and so many others are struggling. Guy's want a hand polished and perfectly fitted gun for $300.

Unlike Walks and OLDRED, I want Henry to cut costs on their single shot. I want lower cost, but I don't expect the bells and whistles. Just a rugged single shot.

[oldred]

What are you even talking about? Some rimfires are a cover

What is he talking about? Apparently you have never had a Henry Golden boy cover off! When you remove those FAKE BRASS COATED/PAINTED covers you will find that the rifle is indeed what is often referred to as "potmetal". There really is no such thing as actual "potmetal" and that name just is just a catch-all that refers to almost any Zinc based die casting which those things most certainly are! In the case of the Henry we are discussing the material is actually called Zamak which is in fact a Zinc die casting -or as it commonly is called -Potmetal. The so-called "Brass" covers are for looks only and are also castings but coated with something Henry calls Brasslite, whatever "Brasslite" is it is NOT Brass and those coated cast covers will scratch through that coating and I have heard complaints of it being damaged by some cleaning solvents.

The Golden Boy did not impress me at all and I know several others that were a bit underwhelmed after seeing what is actually under those fake covers!

[trapper9260]

When I was small and brought up in MA and my parents would take up kids for a trip to center MA and we would drive by the plant of H&R in Gardner,MA and my dad said that is the H&R plant that makes guns and also made them for the military during the war.It was a good size place. I have 2 H&R one is a 22lr Sport 999 and a 1871 handi that was made to shoot 327mag..Too bad they are out now.

[megasupermagnum]

What is he talking about? Apparently you have never had a Henry Golden boy cover off! When you remove those FAKE BRASS COATED/PAINTED covers you will find that the rifle is indeed what is often referred to as "potmetal". There really is no such thing as actual "potmetal" and that name just is just a catch-all that refers to almost any Zinc based die casting which those things most certainly are! In the case of the Henry we are discussing the material is actually called Zamak which is in fact a Zinc die casting -or as it commonly is called -Potmetal. The so-called "Brass" covers are for looks only and are also castings but coated with something Henry calls Brasslite, whatever "Brasslite" is it is NOT Brass and those coated cast covers will scratch through that coating and I have heard complaints of it being damaged by some cleaning solvents.

The Golden Boy did not impress me at all and I know several others that were a bit underwhelmed after seeing what is actually under those fake covers!

If that were true, they wouldn't be for sale in Minnesota. We have a stupid law that prohibits the sale of fireams with a low melting point (somehow Glock doesn't apply). HiPoint's are made of zinc, and not for sale here. Not that it matters anyway, it's a rimfire. I don't know what brasslite is either, but I wouldn't try a copper solvent on it. Hoppes #9 doesn't hurt it at all. The one I got to shoot was $300. This one is 17 HMR, and is a tack driver. The action is smoother than $1200 guns I've handled too. What more do you want, free ammo and a backrub? Sheesh.

[Drm50]

I'm like oldred not impressed with Henry products. Will say they have good customer service. If
they didn't they would be out of business. I never saw the H&R and NEFs as more than minimum
you could by. The older H&Rs, IJ and Savage/Stevens single barrel guns weren't fancy but they
were made well of good stuff. H&R went down hill with the push button latch and the one spring
does it all design.Pump guns with plastic stocks are more profitable and cheaper to produce .

[oldred]

If that were true, they wouldn't be for sale in Minnesota. We have a stupid law that prohibits the sale of fireams with a low melting point (somehow Glock doesn't apply). HiPoint's are made of zinc, and not for sale here. Not that it matters anyway, it's a rimfire. I don't know what brasslite is either, but I wouldn't try a copper solvent on it. Hoppes #9 doesn't hurt it at all. The one I got to shoot was $300. This one is 17 HMR, and is a tack driver. The action is smoother than $1200 guns I've handled too. What more do you want, free ammo and a backrub? Sheesh.

If that were true? Lol, how you like to make a little wager on that?

It IS TRUE whether you want to believe it or not, just do a quick search on Google for Henry and Zamak, you will turn up all the "proof" you need!

Also Henry is guilty of insinuating, but just barely short of claiming, to be a descendant of the original Henry Rifle which is of course utter nonsense! In the first place while an original Henry might be the ultimate classic lever action repeater it was hardly an engineering marvel and was only around a very short time, if anyone can lay claim to producing descendants of the original Henry it would be Winchester and even that would be a stretch, those ridiculous ads were almost enough to turn me off but that Golden Boy really did it.

What more do I want? I want a steel receiver and not a stinking piece of cheap potmetal with fake brass covers hiding what it really is made of!

The Golden Boy is a fancied up version of a German import that was bought by the new Henry company founder and renamed the Golden boy, it has absolutely no connection to the original Henry and most certainly is nothing more than Zamak under those very fake covers.

[oldred]

I never saw the H&R and NEFs as more than minimum
you could by. The older H&Rs, IJ and Savage/Stevens single barrel guns weren't fancy but they
were made well of good stuff. H&R went down hill with the push button latch and the one spring
does it all design.Pump guns with plastic stocks are more profitable and cheaper to produce .


The older H&R shotguns along with the Stevens shotguns were hard to beat, the last one I bought was a H&R 10 ga. magnum with a 36" barrel that I bought for $89 new IIRC back in the early eighties. I would like to come across one of those now but it seems the big 36" barrels were not all that popular and the last 10 ga. shotguns were shorter so the long ones don't show up in the used market very often.

[Drm50]

Like oldred says Henry has nothing to do with original Henry Rifles. And they do try to twist that
into their advertisements. That 22 design was sold by Erma and Ithaca sold some under their name too. The same basic action was also sold in pump version. The looks of it are all phony
Exterior camouflage covering a action that has nothing in common with a Win lever action or a
Win 1890 pump that Henry mimics. It's all hype. A neighbor won a yellow boy up at a function
in Wheeling WVA. Gun has laser picture of old Wheeling with the Suspension Bridge on one side
and NRA stuff on the other. Kid was told it was $3500 gun. He didn't want to shoot it and had no
use for a 22 worth that much. He brought it over and wanted me to sell it and he would by a good
22 and keep the proceeds. When he found out what it's really worth he was down in the Jaws. They will put anything you want on those dust covers for a charge and give you a break on bulk
orders. Henry my butt. To each his own but these guns will not last down through the generations
like the old milled parts guns.

[Walks]

Two things.
Ist, H&R still exists. However the only thing listed in their product line is a line of cheap imported pump shotguns.
Kind of an insult to a Well Known Company name.

2nd when the "new" henry repeating arms co. came out with their 1st center fire pistol caliber lever gun, they came out with a magazine ad that "claimed" to be S.A.S.S. APPROVED. It was not true & the ad disappeared for about 3-4 months. Until they paid the S.A.S.S. wild bunch (governing body) enough to get their rifles endorsed for S.A.S.S. Competition. I saw a few of those guns. Poor Owners up on a stage fighting their way thru it with that piece of ****. Failure to chamber/feed & double feed.

[megasupermagnum]

The point is, Minnesota has a law that firearms cannot be constructed of an alloy that melts at a low temp. I think it is around 1100 degrees. Being as all Henry models are legal to sell here, the metal they are made of is clearly not that heavy in zinc, but again, who cares? It's a dang rimfire! what are you worried about?

I'm not here to say your opinion is wrong, but it makes a lot more sense now why H&R is gone. I have a number of H&R's, not nearly enough, but all are the push button type. They are the perfect single shot in my view. They were priced well, didn't bother with fancy junk, and just plain worked. I can't stand cheap bolt actions, and I have a thing for the break action. They were a good thing, I want the plastic triggers, as long as the trigger pull is decent (and Handi rifle triggers are decent to me), I want the cheap finish and cheap wood. Unfortunately people who want the same are willing to buy the imported garbage like Rossi, which has nothing on H&R.

[oldred]

the metal they are made of is clearly not that heavy in zinc, but again, who cares? It's a dang rimfire! what are you worried about?

Worried about? Longevity maybe? Lack of durability of a potmetal receiver maybe? Rapid wear? I for one care a great deal about the material my rifle is made of and like most folks I would be Leary of a rifle receiver made of cheap die cast potmetal!

Zamak 3 which is what the Golden Boy is made of is (after a quick search) according to Roto Metals 96% Zinc and 4% aluminum. It has a melting point of 384 deg.Celsius/723.2 Fahrenheit, a bit of further research on this particular metal reveals it is the most common and widely used alloy for Zinc die castings and thus accounts for most items that we normally think of as "potmetal", it is revealed that it's tensile strength is only approximately 48,000 PSI with the tensile strength of common 360 Brass for comparison being 58,000 PSI! The bottom line is the Golden Boy IS a Zinc die casting (Zamak) and it most certainly is a common Zinc alloy that we often refer to as "potmetal", which is just a slang term for any cheap Zinc based die casting. Like it or not, it is what it is.

If you have not done so and have access to a Golden Boy just take those phony brass covers off and then tell us what you see, I have done this and I can assure you what you will find is not very impressive!


BTW, better look into that law a bit more, it's for pistols/handguns that have a melting point of 1000 deg. F. or less. The idea being to eliminate cheap so-called "Saturday Night Specials".

[megasupermagnum]

I do not have access to a golden boy I can take apart, but just looked up a video. I can't believe your making such a big fuss over that. We make guns of plastic now for pete's sake. I just don't get where such an affordable gun can be looked down on when it performs so well. It won't wear out in a lifetime, that's a bet I'm willing to take. Sure, Henry could make them out of steel, but then they would be $700 like the big boy.

[Jedman]

I have to agree here with megasupermagnum. The Henry is a nice gun for the price, if you want a Marlin 39 A you will pay twice as much as the Henry and that's fine. No one is twisting your arm to buy either one.
I have one of the early Erma made 22 lever rifle single shots with the dropping block action made from Zamak and it is still a great shooter and works every time and was less than $ 20 new.
If you compared all of the pump and semi auto shotguns to the original Browning square back based on no stampings, milled steel parts ,finish you would say all the others are junk but it costs a lot to make guns like they did 100 years ago.
I don't see anything to argue out ? :coffee:

Jedman

[oldred]

We make guns of plastic now for pete's sake.

You can find Zamak parts (lightly to non stressed and low to no wear parts) in several high quality modern guns, just not the entire receiver like that Henry! It's a matter of what parts are made of the stuff and the fact it is all covered with fake brass to make it look like something it's not.

As far as modern "plastic" guns they are made of high quality polymers (not cheap plastics) that can cost more than metal castings, that stuff is much more durable than Zamak potmetal and is used to make the gun lighter not cheaper! Then they advertise the fact the guns are made of this material and indeed it one of the desirable selling points, the material is highlighted by the manufacturers as a very desirable feature by them unlike Henry who hides the potmetal under fake brass covers and then calls this material by their own silly names (brasslite????) for the stuff instead of telling what it actually is made of.

The point is not so much whether the rifle works well or not it's the deception behind it that stinks, Henry goes to great lengths to hide the fact that rifle is made of a Zinc based die casting by covering it with phony covers that they call by a phony made up name in an attempt to deceive the buyer of even that! The early rifles had the inside Zamk in the raw and it was not painted black to hide what it is, that along with some very cheap soft plastic parts on the outside (even the front sight!) didn't go over to well for them, they started using metal castings for the sights etc and also painted the receiver die casting black to make it look more like a durable rifle part. It's the company's deceptive practices from hiding Zinc die castings used for receivers to fake brass covers called by a catchy name (BRASS-lite) used to hide these parts in an attempt to dupe the buyer into thinking it actually is brass when clearly it's not, to their shady way of trying to make people believe they are a continuation of an old classic when clearly they have nothing to do with the classic except assuming the name. If a company will resort to that kind of deception what else might they do? It's about the deception more than anything else but then cheap die cast Zinc receivers don't do much for most of us either!

If a Zinc die casting covered by phony cast covers painted with a fake brass coating is your idea of a nice rifle for the price then that's your choice but some of us want better than that!

[EDG]

There are many rifles with die cast receivers. Most are .22 LR.
I think the Rem Nylon 66 has a cheap cover over the bolt assy.
The old Ithaca falling block lever gun .22 LR single shot appeared to be die cast. A Colt semiauto rifle in .22LR I had had a die cast receiver.

[oldred]

The Nylon 66s are Aluminum castings, not Zamak, as is the Colt unless I am mistaken and I might be as I have not examined one but have heard them referred to as aluminum, a Colt is not likely to be made of inferior metal. The Ruger 1022 is another very popular one with an aluminum construction receiver but there is a lot of difference between aluminum and Zinc die castings. The Ithaca is likely a Zinc alloy casting but then it was never hyped as being high quality either, unlike that Henry! The Ithaca is also a prime example of why I would NOT want a Zinc die cast receiver, I bought one in 22 mag when I was a kid (picked and sold wild blackberries to save the $28 it cost, walked into the Western Auto and bought it new, I was 14 years old and nobody blinked an eye, ah but those truly were the good old days!) :roll: Those Ithacas would rapidly degrade under even normal use, (as mine certainly did)! and it's fairly rare to even see one today never mind one in good shape, that Ithaca is the kind of thing that's a darn good example of where steel or quality aluminum alloys vs Zinc die cast makes a world of difference! Like those Zinc alloy Ithacas how will a well used Golden Boy hold up over time?

Again the point is more about deception than anything else, the Golden Boy is hyped to the hilt by Henry and others when it is actually little more than a cheaply made rifle covered with a lot of bling to make it pretty and then hyped up by fancy ads. If there ever was a case of a ten dollar horse wearing a hundred dollar saddle that one is it IMO but if someone likes these things and wants one that's fine, after all most folks who own them seem to like them. My point is that folks should be aware of what those things really are and the obvious deception effort to hide how they are really built as opposed to the flashy but fake coverings and slick ads hyping such unknown materials as "Brasslite" which is just a fancy name for a brass COLORED casting.

[uscra112]

As any oldtime Brit biker knows, zinc can corrode like crazy. Open up an Amal carb that has been standing for a while, and you're likely to be greeted by what we called "The White Death".

[ulav8r]

The Nylon 66s are Aluminum castings, not Zamak, as is the Colt unless I am mistaken and I might be as I have not examined one but have heard them referred to as aluminum, a Colt is not likely to be made of inferior metal.

I took my Nylon 66 partially apart once. I do not remember any cast aluminum parts, thought there may be 1 or 2. If so, they are not wear parts. The bolt is enclosed by the nylon stock and the stamped steel receiver cover. I would love to have another for using, as the one I have is a Bicentennial model the the gold filled "engraving".

[megasupermagnum]

As any oldtime Brit biker knows, zinc can corrode like crazy. Open up an Amal carb that has been standing for a while, and you're likely to be greeted by what we called "The White Death".

I've found that a few times, even in aluminum carbs. Letting ethanol fuel sit for years really causes problems. Oddly, I found Hoppes #9 to clean it pretty well, along with a wire brush, and a good soak in B-12.

I can certainly understand the deceptive advertising thing, although I never got that impression from Henry. I was not even all that aware of the company 15-20 years ago, so I have no idea what they were originally like.

[Texas by God]

The Nylon 66 is made of Zytel and steel and nothing else. Folks loved them or hated them. I love mine and if I had to grab one gun to live with that would be the one.
Henry makes up for the zinc and plastic by using real Walnut for their stocks. My dos centavos- nada mas.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[beemer]

Back in the 70's my BIL bought an Ithaca lever action 22, it was a nice looking rifle that shot well, he still has it. A couple years ago his son bought a Henry 22. We were looking at both and noticed how similar they were. We took the but stock off both and switched them, perfect fit.

I think both company's were from NY and wondered if Henry bought the rights and tooling that Ithaca had used.

[Walks]

OLDRED,
You said what I would've if I wasn't using a touch pen on a tablet. Don't have that much patience.
I guess because I was raised on BLUED Steel & Walnut. I remember the differences between the COLT .22 Peacmaker & a Mattel "50 Fanner".
I had a NYLON 66 & WINCHESTER 9422M. Lots of differences, but both good guns.

Nothing like a so called henry.

Still would buy an H&R Handi-Rifle or Topper if they ever start making them here in the U.S. of A. As long as they maintain the quality they once had.

[megasupermagnum]

\
Still would buy an H&R Handi-Rifle or Topper if they ever start making them here in the U.S. of A. As long as they maintain the quality they once had.

That's something we can all agree with. I have been going back and forth for weeks on a Henry single shot in 308 winchester. I like the single shot, but it's getting to the point with price and lack of availability, I might just go for the long ranger model instead. I'd take a handi-rifle over either, but it has been a long time since I've seen a 308 winchester, and it seems people think they are worth more than the Henry single shot now.

[jmort]

Probably not a big difference, but the Henry receivers are made of Zamak 5 not #3. Also, the guns will last a long time, some have 250k rounds through them. Not saying I want one, but they run good and are smooth shooters and last a long time. My .22s are Marlin 795s, pre Remington and a Henry stainless Mini-Bolt, a kid sized gun I use for pest control. Built with steel. I have 5 Handi Rifles and 10 barrels and a USG 12 guage. I like them.

[am44mag]

For $300, people are expecting too much. Show me a company making a solid brass (or even steel) receiver lever action with a really nice walnut stock for that price and I'll show you a company that won't be around in 5 years. If a $300 gun can last 250K rounds, I don't care what it's made of as long as it works. $300 doesn't go near as far as it did 40 years ago. Today, that's the starting point for most budget guns. You really don't get to be picky until you start paying $600 or more.

[EDG]

Zinc die castings when the alloy is poorly controlled are about the worst product on the planet. I will explain.

Zinc has to have a high level of purity or trace elements can cause intergranular corrosion. This is corrosion all through the item along the grain boundaries.
I remember an example really well from when I was in the first grade.
My mother had been to a variety store and brought home 2 little 4" long die cast cars one red and one blue. She handed one to me and my grasp crushed it like foil. Apparently the paint over the die casting was the strongest structural component. The second car broke into pieces when I rolled it into the wall on a 45 degree angle.

I can't say the Colt .22 rifle that I mentioned above was superior in anyway. The hammer pivot pin kept bending when fired causing malfunctions.

[Thin Man]

My first experience with corporate buy-out and shut-down of the competition came when Sears bought the Western Auto chain of family owned and operated stores. We had 2 Western Auto stores in our town and both had large numbers of repeat customers. They offered good products and on-site repairs and were interactive with their customers. Sears viewed them as a threat and bought out the entire group only to then close them down. I'm still angry at Sears for this move as they washed away a group of stores that provided more services than Sears could replace. Bah. Humbug.

[BAGTIC]

I have four Nylon 66. You are right. I have also had the Nylon 77 model with the detachable magazines but I sold it as I don't like protruding magazines. Also sold good shooting Remington 788 for same reason.

[Drm50]

The Ithaca is same rifle as Henry. Henry is just designed to be produced with modern methods &
materials. In other words a higher tech , over priced novelty gun. The only reason they get that
kind of money for a Henry 22 is that Marlin 39s are so expensive. There is no comparison between
the two.

I have owned & do own quite a few guns. The ones I have owned are in the hundreds. That was
my thing my whole life, I'm 68. Way back when I was a teen I could tell the difference from a
good gun and novelty stuff. Like the Colt series of 22 semi auto rifles, they were made in France
by Manu France who also sold same gun under chain store labels. They were common second rate
rifles with Colts name. About same quality as the post 64 Win line of 22s.

Get a Shotgun news from 60s and look at all the imports that were available just in 22s. You will
see models that ended up branded with US makes. Marlin & H&R & Colt all had pump shotguns
made by same outfit in France. The same gun was store branded too.

All these guns are second rate. If you like them that is your business. When I get a gun I don't
care what make it is, if it's **** I will say so and get rid of it. Most of these guns I would never
buy new and only end up with them from trading. I have gotten fooled a couple of times the last
a SIG Mosquito at $400 when they were first out. The SiG name and $400 tag lulled me into it
before I had seen one. Total piece of junk. I got took and I admitt it.

I keep telling the young guys who have gun dollars burning a hole in their pocket to look into
spending their money on a used gun of better quality. Very few listen, they have to have new.
They really don't know the difference and with Henry the hype is thick. It is not a consideration
to most but down the road all these type guns will have little resale value.

[dougader]

IMO, the CVA single shots are better guns. My Hunter in 35 Remington was only $169, looks much better than the H&R, weighs less, and shoots lights out.

[Texas by God]

The Henry lever action (and the Ithaca) are copies of the design brought out by the German firm Erma.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[cwlongshot]

Better is relative...

But at least as serviceable and a heap better than a South American junk.

CW

[Tom W.]

http://www.hr1871.com

Their website is still up.

[oldred]

http://www.hr1871.com

Their website is still up.

Yep it sure is and it offers their NEW 2014 catalog!:roll:

Forget it, they are gone, it's just the old site.

[Tom W.]

I know. It's strange that the website is dated for this year.....

[oldred]

It's not strange at all, if you are referring to that 2018 in the lower left that is just a part of the web page that updates automatically and will continue to do so until someone removes the page, unless someone gets around to taking that page down and it's still up next year that tiny page date will be 2019 and they will still be offering the same obsolete 2014 catalog and still have the same dead links, did you by any chance click on the site news link prominently displayed on the page?


They are gone and everybody knows it, if they come back it will be well known and their web page would clearly reflect they are back.

[Yooper003]

2nd the cva recommended,I have a 45/70 v2 scout 25" barrel in stainless. Love it.

[Tom W.]

No, oldred, I know that they are gone. I just didn't know why the site would update itself....Or why it's even there anymore.

[oldred]

What's your point? It's just an old website just like thousands of other "dead" websites on the net! Websites don't always just automatically get deleted (some do) and that one is no different than a multitude of others. You seem to be insinuating that "something strange might be going on" because that old website is still up and the site host server (not the website!) is updating, there is nothing "strange" about that! You seem to want to point out that tiny almost obscure automatic host server date function and ignore the far more obvious 4 year old outdated catalog and other things like the dead links, especially the one to their NONEXISTENT NEWS page (you get the standard internet "this page can't be displayed" generic page).

They are gone and there's no indication they are coming back, pointing to an old page that was up back in 2014, HAS BEEN THERE ALL ALONG and has NOT been updated in all that time and then saying "I just don't know why" is what don't make a lot of sense. That DEAD webpage has been there all along just as it is now ever since they closed shop and is absolutely no indication of anything except that no one has taken it down yet!

Why would the site host software date update itself? Because it's part of the site hosting service that stores the webpage on their server, it's NOT part of the website itself, good grief it's just part of the software that allows the site to be there in the first place! Why is it still up? For any number of a multitude of possible reasons, the same as any number of other dead websites that are nothing more than "Ghost sites" that have not yet been removed from website hosting service servers for any number of unimportant reasons.

[Tom W.]

You do like to argue, don't you?

I hope you feel better now.

[oldred]

You do like to argue, don't you?

I hope you feel better now.


I wasn't trying to argue, I pointed out the obvious it was you who brought up the dead site and kept saying it "seemed strange" when there was nothing at all strange about it.

[Mr_Sheesh]

It's possible they paid for 5 or 10 years for their web site, and got a better rate for it; I don't know but that'd make more sense than it staying around if it's not paid for!

[oldred]

Just like data stored on about any device it can often linger until space is needed for something else, it certainly could be just as you suggested or it could be the host may do "house cleaning" on a schedule, they may wait until data storage reaches a certain level or maybe they just haven't gotten around to doing it because they have plenty of empty storage and just don't need it right now. Could be any number of reasons but just like undeleted files or programs on our own hard drives and other storage devices lot's of those webpages linger in limbo like that for years.

[richhodg66]

With H&R gone now and I don't think Rossi is still making them, who makes good, signle barel shotguns now? Wal Mart is selling those Hatfields for about $100, are they decent? Someone posted a link to this Midland company that has these.

https://www.shootmidland.com/collections/all

I like break open single shot shotguns and have a few, I like the Savage/Stevens 220 and 94 better than the H&Rs. Seems a shame that no one has a good, entry level one for a kid to learn hunting on nowadays.

[megasupermagnum]

I looked at the Hatfield at walmart. I won't be owning one. I have no idea what choke it is, it was fixed, but no mention on the barrel. It looked like they just crimped down the end of the barrel and called it good. The frame is about like a barn hinge. Other than that, I'd bet it goes bang.

I just purchased a Henry single shot in 308 winchester, should be here tomorrow. They are in stock at gallery of guns if anyone is looking. I'm guessing the shotguns are about the same price, I paid $370. I'd rather have a handi rifle, but everybody thinks they are worth $300+. What a change from 2013, when stores were lined with H&R, to 2015 (when I actually had money), and you couldn't buy one for anything.

[richhodg66]

Just saw a good condition NEF in .22 Hornet with a cheap scope on it today for $269. Hornets seem to be even more popular than most. They're out there.

[megasupermagnum]

Just saw a good condition NEF in .22 Hornet with a cheap scope on it today for $269. Hornets seem to be even more popular than most. They're out there.

I don't doubt it, but they are very rare. The exceptions are the 12,20, and .410 shotguns, as well as 243 winchester rifles. I've seen some 17 hmr rifles decent too. Since 2015, I've got two 12 gauges, both $125. Since that time, I've also been on the hunt for a 30 cal, 30-30/308/30-06. I have yet to see one that isn't junk, and under $300 in over 3 years. I thought I had found it this spring at an auction, a 30-30, 12 gauge combo. I looked it over, and it rattled. That's not right. I put it up to the light, and there was a gap from the frame to barrel large enough to fit a credit card in. I tried to tell the auctioneers they were selling an unsafe gun, but they didn't care. I've tried fitting 3 barrels now, and it's not easy. The last was a 410, and there was such a gap from frame to barrel I tried to shove a .020" shim in the hinge pin, and it still isn't enough. I tried JB weld, but it's not strong enough, I'll probably have to try building it up with the tig welder. I would never buy just a barrel again. There is such a variation, the best case is the barrel is too tight, and you can file the hinge pivot point just enough. Go just .002" too far, and you've ruined it.

[WarEagleEd]

the H&R buff classic was THE bottom feeder entry rifle into BPCR. large corporations are lead by their stockholders, who's bottom line is making as much money as quickly as possible. there are no underlying stockholder good intentions about products or services. many a good product has be cut down needlessly - add H&R handi rifles to that list. it is what it is.

So, when privately held companies go public, then the only thing they are concerned with is profit to the exclusion of everything else? While that is the case more times than not (perhaps everytime), I don't think it has to necessarily be. Therefore, generally speaking, I don't accept the premise of "it is what it is." I don't like accepting sub-standard behavior as the new standard based on the "everybody else is doing it" reasoning (i.e. while I may have to accept that large corporate business will act this way I don't have to think those actions are acceptable). That being said, I'm prepared to be disappointed a lot! That is why I typically hate to see a private company go public or be bought out by a larger (usually public) entity, because it often brings with it disappointment.

Ed "The Idealist"

[rfd]

mr ed, large corporations exist for their stockholders, who are the true corporation owners. most stock holders have no interest in products or services, only the ROI and what it takes to increase shareholder values. that, sir, is unfortunately what it is, and what drives today's market - making money, not products or services. this is where the value added of smaller corporations, businesses, are the boon to the consumer. people who offer products and services with the public in mind, not the stockholder (if any). H&R was just a pawn in the game, no more or less. like it or not, it sure is what it is.

[WarEagleEd]

rfd, reread my post. I stated "Therefore, generally speaking, I don't accept the premise of 'it is what it is'." Wikipedia says that 'It Is What It Is' is an idiomatic phrase, indicating the immutable (unchanging over time or unable to be changed) nature of an object or circumstance. In general, I don't think it's "unable to be changed," though, specifically, for H&R it is "unable to be changed." However, I think that phrase lends itself to accepting the unacceptable, which I generally reject.

As I said before, hopefully, if the demand is there, someone will produce a product to fill the gap left behind by the demise of H&R.

Ed

[rfd]

i hear ya, ed. it's all good one way or t'other, 'cept in the case of H&R and too many others. the bottom line is that NO major manufacturer wants anything less than making a continuous good buck as easily as possible. ditto for the stockholders who hold the company's reins. too large corporations are so far removed from the product they make that it really ain't funny anymore. case in point, H&R. it was strictly about the money, no more or less. for us, the buff classic was the only sane introduction to bpcr. it wasn't at all great gun, but it was good enuf to get one's toes wet in the black waters. ain't nothing like it since. oh well.

[Bagdadjoe]

I notice CVA is putting out some single shot centerfire rifles and pistols..but they quit cataloging the 300BLK pistol before I caught on.
Still making it in 357 and 44 mags...aren't their barrels Bergara?

[uscra112]

No cause for despair. Single shot in .300BLK is a waste of time and trouble, since the single shot isn't restricted in cartridge size or length by a magazine made for a much smaller caliber. And it's rimless, which complicates the extractor.

There were thousands of T/C Contender barrels made in .30 Herrett, another cartridge with insufficient powder capacity, and they're going begging in the used market. I made that mistake years ago, and almost literally can't give mine away.