Is this a better powder?

[vrh]

Just saw this ad showing it is for black powder pistols and rifles.
Has anyone used any of this?
222898

[jj500]

Seems like you have to use a lot more for the same results as Black,these substitute powders never seem to catch on except for the zip gun shooters who are looking for the next better thing to come down the pike.If your shooting a traditional gun then stick with a traditional powder,Just my 2 cents worth.

[mooman76]

I bought some but have yet to try it. I have heard good things about it and got it at a great price. Not designed for flint though of coarse. I hear it is very clean and lights well.

[uscra112]

I've got half a dozen partial canisters of previous "black substitute" failures cluttering up the magazine. Haven't tried this one, and won't.

As far as I can see, the sole and only reason for substitutes is to let gun shops sell something for front-loaders that doesn't require an explosives license. Was this another iteration? Put a new name on another inadequate product, and make money shipping enough to fill the distribution pipeline? Inquiring minds, and all that.

/rant off

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Well, just what brand of TRUE Black is best? My stock of 1970's vintage GEOX is running low.

[midland man]

Well, just what brand of TRUE Black is best? My stock of 1970's vintage GEOX is running low.

yep goex only here in my house!

[uscra112]

Well, just what brand of TRUE Black is best? My stock of 1970's vintage GEOX is running low.

I go to great lengths to get Swiss BP. It's not cheap, but it burns cleaner and more consistently than anything else. GOEX is for re-enactors who need lots of smoke, IMHO. Some people are touting Old Eynsford, (from the same people), for cartridge shooting. A few folks swear by Elephant. But if you look at what serious target shooters are using, it's Swiss all the way, unless they are sponsored by somebody else. PITA is that very few BP retailers stock Swiss, so it's on-line order with a 25 lb. minimum, or drive three hours each way like I do. (I used to vacation in Maine, when I could make detour to Maine Powder House for a year's supply, which for me is never more than five pounds, but they have folded their tent. Now I meet a sutler at a re-enactment event in West By God Virginia. It's not so bad; I make a weekend outing of it.)

[charlie b]

Well, I for one have not fired real black for over 30 years. Almost all of my shooting has been done with Pyrodex. It works well for me, is very consistent and I can buy it off the shelf at just about any sporting goods store. No, I do not shoot flintlocks.

MZ Black is supposed to be OK but is designed to take a bit of compression for reliable results. I have some I have tried with my PP bullets but it did not work very well. I suspect because I cannot compress it enough (the PP bullets are a slip fit in the bore). I have kept it to try with patched balls.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

No its not a better powder. Better than home made powder maybe. Its a decent powder, especially when its on sale for $9.99 for a pound, but with the normal $32 - $35 price tag, Pyrodex is a better powder.

[indian joe]

I've got half a dozen partial canisters of previous "black substitute" failures cluttering up the magazine. Haven't tried this one, and won't.

As far as I can see, the sole and only reason for substitutes is to let gun shops sell something for front-loaders that doesn't require an explosives license. Was this another iteration? Put a new name on another inadequate product, and make money shipping enough to fill the distribution pipeline? Inquiring minds, and all that.

/rant off

I like the rant - agree 100% - there would be no substitute powders except for the legislation around blackpowder (shipping and storage)

[tranders]

I normally use Goex FFFg in my rifles and percussion revolvers,but have used Schuetzen and Swiss also. It helps that Friendship is only 3 hours from me,so it's easy to restock. I also use Pyrodex with no problems and it's easy to find. I have never understood the hatred of Pyrodex.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I've always used Pyrodex, and have no complaints.

[winelover]

Pyrodex "P" in all my muzzies. Don't want or even like black............. certainly don't want to store it at my house. I'm sure your insurance company would agree.

Winelover

[Edward]

I like OE in 1 1/2 to 3 f in all my BP guns/Ed

[sharps4590]

I've got half a dozen partial canisters of previous "black substitute" failures cluttering up the magazine. Haven't tried this one, and won't.

/rant off


Same here except they no longer clutter my shelves. Worked through a couple pounds of Pyrojunk when it first came out....and "worked" is an apt description. In cartridge rifles it was ok but I never could get it to shoot as good as black powder. In percussion firearms, even a couple double guns where the flame is about as direct as can be had, hang fires were all too frequent. Obviously, without leading with a priming charge of real BP, it won't work in flintlocks and I do shoot several flinters.

Several years ago, fearing I might not be able to get real BP at some time in the future, I bought all the subs available at that time and tried them in my Sharps, Ballard, German double rifle and British double rifle, all cartridge rifles. Triple 7 gave the optimum results of accuracy and velocity. The old GOEX Clear Shot was the most accurate but about as slow as Elephant. Pioneer Powder was as bad as Pyrojunk and I don't remember the last one I tried. None of them would regulate in either double rifle regardless of how the load was juggled. Sooo....I bite the bullet and order real BP in 25 lb. cases. Then the hazmat isn't so bad. Amounts to about a buck a pound and the price per pound is still significantly cheaper than can be had a LGS's....if they even handle it.

[waksupi]

I'm on my 4th case of Schutzen. I must like it. Graf's sells the same powder under their house name.

[dondiego]

I have a 2 inch cannon and it is a good way too get rid of any unwanted powders......except smokeless of course.

[toot]

i got hooked and had to try it. now it is on my lawn, stick with BLACK and you won't go wrong.

[Fly]

Make your own, as many here do. Best thread on the net above on how to do it. My home made is faster then swiss. $3 a lb to make.

Fly

[OverMax]

As read. {Non-corrosive.} That's a good thing!
No other substitute that I know claims the same. i.e. (non-corr)
If I weren't set in my ways. {traditionalist shooter.} I might have given this Alliant sub a try.

[webfoot10]

I go to great lengths to get Swiss BP. It's not cheap, but it burns cleaner and more consistently than anything else. GOEX is for re-enactors who need lots of smoke, IMHO. Some people are touting Old Eynsford, (from the same people), for cartridge shooting. A few folks swear by Elephant. But if you look at what serious target shooters are using, it's Swiss all the way, unless they are sponsored by somebody else. PITA is that very few BP retailers stock Swiss, so it's on-line order with a 25 lb. minimum, or drive three hours each way like I do. (I used to vacation in Maine, when I could make detour to Maine Powder House for a year's supply, which for me is never more than five pounds, but they have folded their tent. Now I meet a sutler at a re-enactment event in West By God Virginia. It's not so bad; I make a weekend outing of it.)

Hey uscra112 The Maine powder house is back in business. But seeing your in Ohio why don't you
go to The LogCabin Shop in LODI Ohio? They have delivered black powder to me at a shooting
event that they used to set up at. Nice people to deal with.
webfoot10

[59sharps]

[QUOTE=uscra112;4400483]I go to great lengths to get Swiss BP. It's not cheap, but it burns cleaner and more consistently than anything else. GOEX is for re-enactors who need lots of smoke, IMHO. Some people are touting Old Eynsford, (from the same people), for cartridge shooting. A few folks swear by Elephant. But if you look at what serious target shooters are using, it's Swiss all the way, unless they are sponsored by somebody else. PITA is that very few BP retailers stock Swiss, so it's on-line order with a 25 lb. minimum, or drive three hours each way like I do. (I used to vacation in Maine, when I could make detour to Maine Powder House for a year's supply, which for me is never more than five pounds, but they have folded their tent. Now I meet a sutler at a re-enactment event in West By God Virginia. It's not so bad; I make a weekend outing of it.)[/QUOTE

Think the NSSA and other muzzloaders will disagree we you. How can you even say goex is only for reinactors

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Goex is an excellent powder.

[arcticap]

I haven't tried that new Black powder product mentioned in the original post.
But I do use different sub powders in different guns and for different purposes.

I like to use 3F American Pioneer Powder in my cap & ball revolvers.
I do highly compress it by using a loading press while the cylinder is off the gun.
It produces a lot of smoke and bang, so I have no complaints.
I also use it in some older in line plunger type muzzle loaders.
However I only buy the 3F APP since the 2F is much too coarse.

777 Powder works fairly well in my smaller .36 caliber BP rifles because
the small powder charges don't create a crude ring like the large 777 charges do.
In most larger caliber reproduction cap rifles I mostly use Pyrodex P.

I would consider giving the new Black a try but only in cap & ball revolvers since
the company says that it needs a lot of compression.
That does suggest that it might not be very consistent in reproduction
percussion guns when using normal loading procedure and compression.

[Geezer in NH]

(I used to vacation in Maine, when I could make detour to Maine Powder House for a year's supply, which for me is never more than five pounds, but they have folded their tent.

Back in Business now in York Maine with new owners and has web site with online ordering.

[Geezer in NH]

Goex is an excellent powder.
Yes and much better than any substitute. IMHO

[mooman76]

BH 209 is suppose to be noncorrosive but comes at a hefty price and is harder to ignite.

[GoexBlackhorn]

Is this a better powder?
222898

Yes, it is! I use the sister Blue Mag pellets currently.
Black Mag in my opinion, is much-much cleaner than Pyrodex. A great partner for inline shooters. I even like it better than Blackhorn 209. However, any sidelock I shoot still uses Goex.

[koger]

I have used about everything on the market and shot my way to 31 NMLRA medals using Goex and Scheutsen powder. I have won the state championship twice in the Bluegrass State games here in KY, and numerous other local matches using the same 2 powders in some very stiff competition! So much for the comment that Goex is for re-enacting only!

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

blue mz pellets you mean. Exact same powder as IMR Whitehots, just a new name and color.

[indian joe]

I have used about everything on the market and shot my way to 31 NMLRA medals using Goex and Scheutsen powder. I have won the state championship twice in the Bluegrass State games here in KY, and numerous other local matches using the same 2 powders in some very stiff competition! So much for the comment that Goex is for re-enacting only!

I agree on Goex - am sitting on 4 kilos of 90's vintage Goex 5FA for when I get really really serious - always thought it beat Wano(scheutzen???) hands down - Goex burnt cleaner and gave 150 to 200FPS more velocity for the same load - that was before the Moosic factory blow up though - new factory - new management - maybe they didnt do it as good in later years ? .... never shot subs - had a can of pyrodex one time - read the analysis sheet on it - sold it unopened to a feller I didnt like.

[Flintlock1812]

For my inline, Black powder MZ works great; I use only blackpowder in my flintlocks and percussion rifle.

[midland man]

yep goex only for me as well!!

[stubshaft]

I've got Swiss, Elephant, GOEX, Pyrodex and T7. I prefer to shoot GOEX as it is cheaper than Swiss. Elephant was the dirtiest powder that I used. Pyrodex can't be lit in my rocklocks and HAS created rust spots in one of my barrels while I was shooting it. T7 is pretty good in my revolvers and caplocks, but **** expensive.

[Newtire]

I have actually used it and it is great stuff in percussion. Checked it over a chronograph and it is the same as 2F black Grafs house brand. Used it in everything from .32 round ball to .58 Minie. Also used it in 11, 12 and 13 gauge shotguns with 1 to 1-1/4 oz. loads. Hunted doves and killedthem just fine. Velocities approached 2F triple 7 with the .58 Minies. Doesn't rust things in my experience but don't recommend leaving anything uncleaned. Must use a black powder lube. Will sludge up a revolver in one cylinder worth of shooting if using smokeless lube like Felix-lube or Carnauba Red. Cleans up easy even in the sludged up revolvers. Never experienced any excessive fouling using beeswax/olive oil 40/60%. There was kind of a whitish fouling. Shot 15-20 shots out of my shotgun with no lube or wiping at all. The black MZ clumped up but a gentle shake put it back to powder form again. Didn't have any luck using it in flintlocks but everything percussion wise or .45 Colt cartridge (so far, all I've used it in cartridge-wise) ate it right up. So, my actual real live experience with it worked out great except in flintlock guns or when using the wrong lube. In dry Idaho climate, no degrading in more than 2-years now. Black is eazy to get from Grafs and if a couple buddies pitch in together, it comes out to less than $20 a pound including shipping and hazmat if you order their house brand. I heard it was the same as Wano but that's just heresay. Last trip into Sportsman's Warehouse, they were out of Black MZ and if they jack up the price to the price other local places charge, I think I would have to switch to real black and deal with the clean up but for now, it's a good deal. So, don't knock it before you try it I would suggest.

[indian joe]

Pyrodex "P" in all my muzzies. Don't want or even like black............. certainly don't want to store it at my house. I'm sure your insurance company would agree.

Winelover

Do you store gasoline in your garage?????? Got a propane stove inside or propane heating??????

[winelover]

Do you store gasoline in your garage?????? Got a propane stove inside or propane heating??????

Nope...............have geo-thermal heating and cooling. Gas only what fits in vehicles and mower. Extra gasoline stored outdoors.

Winelover

[shdwlkr]

As to whether black MZ is better than any other powder used in black powder firearms a lot depends on what you expect from the powder, how accessible is any kind of powder for your black powder firearms, how much you are willing to pay to shoot said firearms.
They say that black Mz is like ffg black powder but it works in .32 caliber muzzle loaders so one has to wonder if all the decades we have been told to use fffg in the small caliber black powder firearms is correct. Over the decades a lot of companies have and do make black powder or substitutes and your firearm may like one type of manufacture and another firearm by the same company and caliber may like another. Don't let your mind be blind sided that only ..... powder is best to use in black powder firearms, try as many different ones as you can and find out for yourself which you like and firearm likes. nuff said

[indian joe]

Nope...............have geo-thermal heating and cooling. Gas only what fits in vehicles and mower. Extra gasoline stored outdoors.

Winelover

oooooh you are careful! ......Still.... the two litres of gas in your lawnmower tank is at least as big a hazard as a closed can of blackpowder in the same place - open the can of powder and take the cap of the gas tank still no appreciable difference - I would back the powder as marginally safer at that point - drop a match in either and they gonna go whooosh and set fire to the joint - if the mower tank happens to be almost empty you gonna have pieces of aluminium and plastic embedded in the walls as a memento. If the blackpowder container is strong enough and has a small lid it will do the same.

[winelover]

oooooh you are careful! ......Still.... the two litres of gas in your lawnmower tank is at least as big a hazard as a closed can of blackpowder in the same place - open the can of powder and take the cap of the gas tank still no appreciable difference - I would back the powder as marginally safer at that point - drop a match in either and they gonna go whooosh and set fire to the joint - if the mower tank happens to be almost empty you gonna have pieces of aluminium and plastic embedded in the walls as a memento. If the blackpowder container is strong enough and has a small lid it will do the same.


Gun stores must store "black" in a approved safety container/fire proof cabinet.............not so with smokeless or subs. I'll stick with the later in my residence. The subs do what they need to do for me.

Winelover

[Dvedw]

I actually enjoy cleaning my rifle after a day in the field. :) 223468

[Newtire]

oooooh you are careful! ......Still.... the two litres of gas in your lawnmower tank is at least as big a hazard as a closed can of blackpowder in the same place - open the can of powder and take the cap of the gas tank still no appreciable difference - I would back the powder as marginally safer at that point - drop a match in either and they gonna go whooosh and set fire to the joint - if the mower tank happens to be almost empty you gonna have pieces of aluminium and plastic embedded in the walls as a memento. If the blackpowder container is strong enough and has a small lid it will do the same.

Dang! Now I'll have to stop using gasoline to clean my guns, worse yet is the Ed's Red with Acetone recipe. Sorry guys, just had to pull that big chain hanging down.:brokenima

[Newtire]

I actually enjoy cleaning my rifle after a day in the field. :) 223468

I don't mind that either, gets me out of the house and guarantees that wife won't be around for awhile to come up with new chores for me. Peace and quiet...ahhhh....

[indian joe]

Dang! Now I'll have to stop using gasoline to clean my guns, worse yet is the Ed's Red with Acetone recipe. Sorry guys, just had to pull that big chain hanging down.:brokenima


Ya get the point though - we spook at one thing and too casual with another - nobody thinks twice about filling up at the gas station - just think how easy that could go wrong and how bad the result would be - or someone leaves a propane stove on and unlit in a house till the gas finds the space heater pilot light in the loungeroom. That can of Goex is lookin purtier by the minute!

[Newtire]

Ya get the point though - we spook at one thing and too casual with another - nobody thinks twice about filling up at the gas station - just think how easy that could go wrong and how bad the result would be - or someone leaves a propane stove on and unlit in a house till the gas finds the space heater pilot light in the loungeroom. That can of Goex is lookin purtier by the minute!
Yep, some things that we take for granted can turn around and kill us!

[rfd]

firstly, that ain't real black powder, it's just yet another version of smokeless. if yer gun is a trad ml, and not some zip gun, i'd always recommend using real black powder over that substitute cr@p. any black powder will do just fine, from goex to swiss and all those other flavors in between. i like swiss for my trad ml's and bpcr guns. to each their own, it's all good.

[Newtire]

One thing I discovered that Black MZ doesn't do is leave a " crud ring". I became aware of this"crud ring" a couple of weeks ago while using some Triple 7. Never had any trouble before but shooting my TC Scout with 3f Triple 7, I got a form of trouble I never had before. Was using 70 gr. 777 3f and after only 1-shot, the next maxi stopped about 3" before becoming fully seated. I had to pound it down to get it finally seated. Don't recall that happening before but maybe was shooting a few not fully seated. Will make sure to mark all those rods from now on! Fortunately for me, I didn't blow anything up. Wondering if this was just something that happens with the 3f ? Will have to test it out. Some people are saying that they don't experience that crud ring unless they use hot primers etc. and so on. Just got to try these things out for one's self. So, watch out for this next time you use the triple 7.

[toot]

in my part of the country we call them a fouling ring. but only get them with substitutes and only ever part way down, never near the bottom. we say it is a calling to clean, and start shooting again. not a complete cleaning only a wet patch or two and go back having fun.

[bob208]

in 85 when I started shooting muzzleloaders I used goex I am still using goex this day. it works and works good . can see no reason to change I buy it by the keg [ 25 lb. box ] the only other powder I have used was when I got some olod cans of dupont.

[carbine]

in answer of the question whish is best. Black powder. After that, it is up to you to work up the best load. The top three are Goex, Swiss and Olde Eynesford (Goex)

[reivertom]

I use nothing but real old fashion black powder as long as I can get it. The fake stuff doesn't go BOOM in a flintlock very well.