38wcf or 44wcf

[bigted]

Building a 73 Winchester from parts and having had neither i have a strange attraction to the 38-40.

I guess maybe the sudden love affair of the 40 S&W over my previous number 1 pistol chamber ... the 45 ACP began my openness to new chambers.

Always thought the 44 WCF would be my choice but upon mulling it over i really think the 40 cal of the 38 WCF is calling my name.

So is the 38 the choice it seems or am i missing the boat somewhere?

Uses for my new build will be mostly target, plinking at targets of opportunity and small game hunting ... tree rats, rabbits, grouse and quail with the occasional western Oregon blacktail deer.

Thanks for the opinions.

[pworley1]

I have both. I still could not pick just one. Might as well just build one of each.

[Outpost75]

Short-stroke the gun and make a 10x25mm Rimmed, neck down Starline .44 Russian brass in shortened .38-40 die for 0.975" case, load 21 grains of Black, 4.5 grains of Trailboss or 5 grains of Bullseye.

Manson has the reamer .40/.44Spl. Short 1" Rev1 6-18.

[edp2k]

The 38-40 is nice, and you can re-use all your 40 s&w molds.
After you get your reloading setup/processes dialed into the sort-of thin 38-40 brass you will be in tall cotton.
FYI the brass isn't that thin, you just have to keep your eyes open, go by feel, and not be ham handed :)
I know people who can easily use non-crimp groove 40 s&w bullets when loading 38-40 and they
easily crimp the brass into the bare side of the bullet (i.e. no crimp groove) with no problems at all :)

I doubt the critters you named can tell the 0.027" difference between 38-40 and 44-40,
and you will get more "sectional density" [snicker] for the same bullet weight with the 38-40.
[reference the Handloader magazine article on the "Great Advantages of the .29 caliber"] :)

[missionary5155]

Good morning
There is nothing wrong with the 38-40. You may give up the slightly heavier slugs the 44 WCF will sling out but your caliber .40
groove will do just fine for all the items you are looking at enjoying.
Mike in ILLinois

[bob208]

my first 92 was in .38-40 it is a rifle with octagon barrel. I dropped a deer with it one shot. I still have it. bought a uberti ssa in .38-40 to go with it.

[bigted]

Nice. Thanks all for the insight

[smkummer]

Due the vast assortment of 40 cal. bullets, 38-40 appears easier to find a suitable bullet for any gun or action. I have a slight preference for 38-40 but have yet to work with a tube fed rifle and my favorite bullet, Lyman 401043. It works so well in my 40S&W handguns and my 38 WCF bisley.

[hockeynick39]

Shot my 1873 in .44 WCF last weekend with pretty close to the original loading velocities and bullet size. Today, I am going to be shooting my 1892 carbine in .38 WCF with a 220 gr., .401 sized bullet. The carbine was used by my grandfather for many years of hunting in Louisiana and the Adirondack Mtns of New York. It even has the notches in the forearm.

[Harry O]

I also have, and use, both the 44-40 and 38-40 in rifles and handguns. I started with 44-40 for CAS, but the varying dimensions meant that nothing I tried was accurate in all my guns. That was because of the mixing of 44-40 and .44 Magnum parts in the guns (the dimensions ARE different).

I went to the 38-40 and they worked great from the beginning. The dimensions were exactly what they should be. Still using them.

I do not think that .40 S&W bullets are a good choice for the 38-40, although I have not actually tried them myself. In both the 44-40 and 38-40 had a problem with bullets without crimping grooves (like the early Lyman bullets made for Black Powder) pushing down into the case occasionally. Different neck expanding dies, different crimp dies, etc. did not work. Only a bullet with a crimping groove worked.

[Outpost75]

Harry O., if you or anybody else shoots .38-40, I would be happy to provide bullets from Accurate 40-182H mold for testing. I would love to see how they do. I attempted to make the lube groove large enough to work with SPG lube and BP, I would sure like somebody to independently confirm that.

I had this mold cut by Tom for a .40 S&W Ruger Blackhawk and I also use it in my the 10x25mm wildcat which is based on necked down .44 Russian brass. This bullet does have a crimp groove. The 220-grain version is of the same profile with longer nose, which I think is too long for the .38-40, but works in the .40 S&W and 10mm Ruger convertibles. The 40-224H is an ogival wadcutter I am also fooling with.

222951222952222953

[rmcc]

Have 1916 Model 92 & 1891 model 1873 3rd model, both in 38/40. Went through same questions as you. Shot both 38/40 & 44/40, 38/40 is winner hands down. My friends that shoot SASS say that the 38/40 is more accurate than 44/40 (I don't know from personal experience). I do not load them hot due to consideration for age of rifles but I can tell you they ARE a blast to shoot!! Mild recoil, even with curved butt plate, not much noise.
Good luck with your build.

[indian joe]

Building a 73 Winchester from parts and having had neither i have a strange attraction to the 38-40.

I guess maybe the sudden love affair of the 40 S&W over my previous number 1 pistol chamber ... the 45 ACP began my openness to new chambers.

Always thought the 44 WCF would be my choice but upon mulling it over i really think the 40 cal of the 38 WCF is calling my name.

So is the 38 the choice it seems or am i missing the boat somewhere?

Uses for my new build will be mostly target, plinking at targets of opportunity and small game hunting ... tree rats, rabbits, grouse and quail with the occasional western Oregon blacktail deer.

Thanks for the opinions.

Building from parts ? do you have a barrel? or is a new barrel goin into it? I built a 38/40 (upscaled a 25/20 model 92 action) I started out with a shootable original barrel from a 73 until I got the action work done - I was testing it with Wano blackpowder and the RCBS cowboy boolit - at 25 yards tackholed em - at fifty yards the group opened and some went through sideways - at 100 yards = hopeless .....changed my load to duplex with 5grains 4227 under the black and it was good out to 100yards
The point ?????? original twist 1:38 (I think) is too slow to properly stabilise anything different than the original short, fat, 180 grain winchester style boolit - the new barrel I used is a 1:20 twist and I was initially bothered by that but it shoots fine. I would recommend that against the old style slow twist barrels for a much more versatile rifle - sometimes we want to plink at stuff at longer ranges and a boolit that stays stable out to three hundred yards can be fun with these oldies.
I would vote for the 38/40

[Speedo66]

I also have an original '73 in .38-40. I find the Missouri Bullet Company has an accurate 180g. round nose flat point bullet that works well in my rifle. Here's a link: http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=431&category=5&secondary=17 I use a Lee factory crimp die to keep them from setting back into the case while in the tubular magazine.

6g of Trail Boss is a nice light load for this gun.

[35 Whelen]

I bought my first 1873 Winchester in 38-40 for one reason only; the caliber is more plentiful and firearms chambered therein are usually less expensive. That was seven 38-40's ago and I love the caliber. Maybe someday I'll buy an old '73 Winchester in 44-40, but if I don't, no loss.

My favorite is an 1886 production. This rifle has been USED...I mean carried so much that the forearm where it meets the receiver, is visibly thinner. Some knucklehead cold blued it eons ago, but that's OK, just part of the character. The barrel was trashed to the point that it was a challenge to hit a 12" target at 25 yds., so I had it lined by John Taylor and now it shoots wonderfully.

I have the traditional Lyman 40143 mould, but much prefer to cast with the RCBS 40-180-FN (not CM).

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/38-40%20bullets-3_zpsgnpwihbt.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/38-40%20bullets-3_zpsgnpwihbt.jpg.html)

The RCBS mould drops them at a little over 190 grs. and easily runs 1300 fps loaded over Unique or Herco and right at 1400 fps with a heavily compressed load of Swiss 3Fg black powder. Any load through either of my Winchesters is quite accurate out to and including 200 yds.

1886 production:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Unique_zpsfcl2t8ml.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Unique_zpsfcl2t8ml.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Herco_zpsg5fcpll0.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Herco_zpsg5fcpll0.jpg.html)

Also have a 1888 production. Not nearly as worn and has a pretty good, original bore that shoots quite well.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds%20labeled_zpsz07tvqaw.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds%20labeled_zpsz07tvqaw.jpg.html)

The '86 production has been called on twice for food gathering and didn't let me down:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Gobbler_zpschqunhns.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/Gobbler_zpschqunhns.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/3%20point_zpswtji6qwy.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/3%20point_zpswtji6qwy.jpg.html)

Sooo...my vote is for the 38-40!

35W

[indian joe]

35 Whelen
Downunder blackpowder choices are limited to Wano for most of us - or might find Swiss - but its a hellish price - I duplexed the wano load in that old original barrel but it was on a 92 action - boolit then was quite stable - just needed that bit extra velocity that the wano would not give - also the RCBS CB mold is not quite as nice shape as those you show (the Lyman is Right hand side of the pic??) . Interesting that you can find a decent 38/40 for cheaper than 44 over there ......the 38 is rare as hens teeth here .
Heres mine - the tang sight is gone and am shooting it with the barrel sights. 26 inch barrel.

222980

[Harry O]

Outpost75: I have a number of 38-40 moulds (with and without crimping grooves), and most of them don't work with my rifle. I am not sure from your drawings, but it appears that they will not work either. I am using mine in a 1873 Winchester 38-40 rifle clone and two Colt 38-40 clones. The rifle is VERY critical on overall cartridge length. As long as I am in that very narrow length, it is perfectly reliable. The handguns will use anything. Any length, any nose shape, with or without crimping groove. Not so with the rifle. I do not personally know if there is a problem with 1892 Winchester clones or if it is as much of a problem.

The length from the front of the crimping groove to the front of the bullet must be about (as near as I can measure) 0.285" to 0.290". Anything even the smallest amount longer or very much shorter will not feed in the rifle. It will jam. I have several moulds that are just over that length (which includes a new NEI mould and a new Magma mould that don't work) and they will not work in an 1873 Winchester clone. I have used Missouri Bullet Co. bullets for some time since they work. I recently bought a mould from RCBS (one that Mike Venturino has mentioned a few times), cast some, and it appears that it will work, too. After the Missouri bullets are gone, I will start using that full time.

[ajjohns]

38 WCF. My 73 Winchester is one of the most accurate guns I have period to 100 yds. All the above 38 comments apply, it is a very nice round to work with.

[lazs]

this is an interesting topic to me. I have been handloading for many decades but so far have shunned the necked down cases. My first venture into the realm was a 30 carbine blackhawk that just would jam up with .30 carbine brass... I bought 32-20 brass and loaded accordingly with a very pleasant shooting and fun round that worked well in the BH.. I just got in a trade... a Navy Arms (Uberti) 1873 long range sportsman model in 44-40... Ok.. another caliber with the PITA weak neck rounds.. The rifle is gorgeous tho and even nicer than newer reproductions. Pistol grip.. Oct barrel and checkering.. gorgeous color case. I order brass.. order dies... even order 200 grain FN cast bullets and boil the lube out and powder coat em...

Ok.. here it gets interesting... brass is starline. bullets are commercial cast .428 soooo.. I decide to slug the barrel... .429! this means my 44 spl/mag molds will work... but... lever guns need short over all length bullets right? yeah.. this one does.. So I size the PC bullets at .430 since PC adds a couple thou.

Now.. I have never loaded 44-40 before.... no idea where to start other than bullet dia which I now know. Buddy comes over with a present.. two canisters of "trail Boss' a powder I do not have and have never considered buying. But.... the stars align so I look it up and a max load is 6.5 grains and fills the case 2/3 full.. cool...

I go max at 6.5 and load up a bunch of .430 at 200 grain flat nose stuff.

Windy day but I want to shoot it... what a hooot! shooting 12oz soda cans (dollar store) at 75 yards.. easy peasy.. the recoil is nothing and the blast? you could almost not use hearing protection. Cleanup was one pass with a bore snake and some toothbrush action..

No idea if this is as good or worse or better than a 38-40 but mine is very cool... and it uses 44 mag/spl bullets if you keep the over all length short enough.

lazs

[indian joe]

Lazs
38/40 is all that fun plus just a couple clicks better cuz ya dont have the hassles with boolit size (44/40 vs 44mag barrels on 44/40 frames)

[Texas by God]

I am quite fond of Winchester's original- the 44 WCF.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[bigted]

Well she is gonna be a 38. Maybe the next one will turn into a 44. Got a very used and abused sewer pipe that has been bubba'd and then bubba'd some more. Began life as a round rifle barrel and now it is carbine length and fixin to be even shorter as a result of the bubba.

Keep em coming. Great info gleaned

[ajjohns]

So get it lined and you'll be good as new.

[bigted]

That's prolly gonna happen, however think i will build her with it as is for now just to see how it shoots. Thinkin i will build the whole rifle , shoot it, then decide how to proceed under what deficits it exhibit's ... like how i want to finish it and whether or not to line the barrel. Such fun.

[Bigslug]

Having had moderate exposure to '73's in both chamberings, I think it's sort of like debating 55 or 62 grain bullets in a 5.56 - there just ain't enough difference between 'em to make the buying decision on performance alone. I honestly don't know why they bothered with two different rounds. You probably need to form your own matrix based on molds you have, molds you need, revolvers you want to acquire, etc...

You can load .40 S&W bullets in the .38-40. Did it with NOE 180 RNFP's as an initial load and it worked fine, though it's something I'd ultimately look for a crimp groove on - especially if a matching handgun is in the offing.

223118
I would pour 20-1 and gleefully smack any deer ever made to 100 yards with either. Underrated rounds - both of them - somewhat overlooked after the magnum mania of the 20th Century. These are those same NOE's. As I recall, these were pulled out of the fourth milk jug in the stack (maybe fifth), so a little better than typical police duty loads for penetration. Might get a little better with the 200-ish grain options.

[indian joe]

Having had moderate exposure to '73's in both chamberings, I think it's sort of like debating 55 or 62 grain bullets in a 5.56 - there just ain't enough difference between 'em to make the buying decision on performance alone. I honestly don't know why they bothered with two different rounds. You probably need to form your own matrix based on molds you have, molds you need, revolvers you want to acquire, etc...

You can load .40 S&W bullets in the .38-40. Did it with NOE 180 RNFP's as an initial load and it worked fine, though it's something I'd ultimately look for a crimp groove on - especially if a matching handgun is in the offing.

223118
I would pour 20-1 and gleefully smack any deer ever made to 100 yards with either. Underrated rounds - both of them - somewhat overlooked after the magnum mania of the 20th Century. These are those same NOE's. As I recall, these were pulled out of the fourth milk jug in the stack (maybe fifth), so a little better than typical police duty loads for penetration. Might get a little better with the 200-ish grain options.

Just a cautionary on that last sentence - if ya gonna try heavier boolits in an original 73 - get a handful and test for stability at your longer range before investing in a mold - these old girls had a slower twist than later models - 200 grain might be on the edge of stability at 100yards I think (at Blackpowder velocities)

[Harry O]

There have been discussions about 38-40 vs 44-40 from time to time here. Usually someone mentions (like me) that the 38-40 seems to be more accurate than the 44-40.

I just got the latest Handloader magazine. In it there is a Mike Venturino article on Colt SAA's. In it, he states the following: "For the purposes of this article, I sat down with plug gauges and measured every chamber mouth on two dozen Colt SAAs of all generations. Here are some bare bone facts: Of nine .45s, chamber mouths varied from .453 to .456 inch. Of six 44-40s, the measurements ran from .428 to .431 inch. Five .44 Specials varied from .430 to .433 inch. Now get this: All five of my .38-40, ranging in age from 1904 to 2004, had uniform .400 inch chamber mouths."

That explains a lot. BTW, my Ruger 44-40 Vaquero could not chamber bullets larger than 0.427". The mouth (throat) of the cylinder measured 0.424" and the groove diameter of the barrel measured 0.430". No wonder it could not shoot. A gun like that is pretty well useless unless you have it completely rebuilt for more additional cost than it cost new. Unfortunately, a lot of 44-40's are screwed up dimension wise.

[bigted]

Got some starline brass and could not help myself, just had to see how much 2Fg the case would hold.

Short story , 40 grains of 2Fg KIK powder.

Now i had to see if my 175 grain Lee boolits would crunch the powder enough to seat without bulging and desturbing the case anywhere. YEP seated like a charm.

Don't have any idea if they will shoot worth a darn but now this project can not get done fast enough.

ANYBODY KNOW WHAT THE ORIGINAL LOAD WAS FOR THE 38 WCF?

[jrmartin1964]

ANYBODY KNOW WHAT THE ORIGINAL LOAD WAS FOR THE 38 WCF?

Taken from Winchester Arms & Ammunition Catalogs:
August 1880: 160 grs. Lead, 37 grs. BP;
January 1881: 160 grs. Lead, 40 grs. BP;
June 1887: 180 grs. Lead, 40 grs. BP;
November 1890: 180 grs. Lead, 38 grs. BP.


The last (November 1890) load remained in Winchester catalogs until BP loadings were discontinued just prior to WWII. Smokeless loads for .38.W.C.F. were first cataloged in November 1894, and consisted of a 160 grs. JHP and 22 grs. of DuPont No.2, with a reported velocity (at 50 feet) of 1640 f.p.s. The following year the powder charge was reduced to 16 grs. of DuPont No.2, with a reported m.v. of 1300 f.p.s. The BP load (the same since November 1890) had a reported m.v. of 1268 f.p.s. at 50 ft.

Instruction sheets issued with Winchester reloading tools recommended 2Fg for loading the .38 W.C.F.

Jim

[bigted]

Cool, thanks Jim, that helps.

[Speedo66]

The name says it all: .38-40, in black powder days, the second # on cartridges was supposed to be the black powder load in grains.

Of course, with the .38-40 actually being a .40, that kind of throws things off.

For a light load I put 6g of TrailBoss under a 180g lead boolit.

[Kev18]

I have one in 44-40. First rifle in that caliber. I cast my boolits out of wheel weights for this one. I do light loads just for plinking I really like it so far. Its a decent chunk of lead, so you'll hear it when it hit, but has very little to no recoil.
https://i.imgur.com/DvofRUW.jpg

[bigted]

Nice rifle Kev. Good picture as well i might add

[lazs]

I guess it depends on if you have a .40 caliber gun which.. I do not. l don't load for 40 so the 44-40 at .429 barrel is basically a 44 spl/mag bullet. for some reason they all use 200 grain FP bullets so I got a two cavity Lee mold in .429.. once I powder coat it is like .430

So for me.. a 44 caliber bullet is much better.

lazs