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badgeredd
09-17-2008, 01:13 PM
To one and all,

I have been using 35 Remington for conversion to 6.5 Jap, mainly because the 35 Rem brass is cheaper than others and it comes closest to be exactly correct in the head dimension although it usually comes out about .040 short in the neck length.
I've seen mention of other cartridges that can be converted, but generally I see them as being more expensive and more labor intensive to convert.

I just read in the Handloader's Manual Of Cartridge Conversions by John J. Donnelly that one can use 270 Winchester brass. He says one has to swage the base to .447. My question is what is a good lube to use to accomplish this task?

Although this is a bit more labor intensive, since new 270 brass isn't much more than 35 Rem brass it would give a more perfect replacement. Besides I have arount 300 empty, once fire 270 hulls laying around without a use to me.

I'd appreciate some thoughts for THIS conversion, especially what lube might work best for this type of swaging.

Thanks,

Edd

jhrosier
09-17-2008, 01:49 PM
Edd,
It is going to take a good stout press to swage those heads down.
The .270 has the same head size as the 30-06, 0.473".

Jack

bruce drake
09-17-2008, 02:06 PM
I wonder if LEE's push through sizing dies could be used to swage the bases down in a succession of steps.

would 3 thousands at a time be too much?
.473 -. 470 - .467 -.464. - .461 - .458 - .455 - 452 - .449. - .447 (10 steps)

or would 4 thousands?
473 - 469- 465- 461- 457 - 453 - 449 - 447 (7 steps)

5 thousands?
473 - 468 - 463 - 458 - 453 - 448/7 (6 steps)

And what would the effect be on the primer holes?

I shoot 6.5 Jap as well and this has got me curious.

badgeredd
09-17-2008, 02:07 PM
Edd,
It is going to take a good stout press to swage those heads down.
The .270 has the same head size as the 30-06, 0.473".

Jack

My Big Max is up to it. I've done it already with one cartridges but I really need a good lube suggestion. I am making a couple dies to do it in 2 steps. I appreciate your concern though. Thanks,

Edd

oneokie
09-17-2008, 02:36 PM
I'd appreciate some thoughts for THIS conversion, especially what lube might work best for this type of swaging.

Thanks,

Edd

Imperial sizing wax and STP come to mind.

GrizzLeeBear
09-17-2008, 03:10 PM
Wouldn't the lube they use to swage bullets work since its a high pressure lube?

beagle
09-17-2008, 03:51 PM
The old George Nonte book, Cartridge Conversions covers head swaging pretty well.

It's a pretty complicated process and takes some really heavy duty press power.

One thing that makes it more difficult is that the head normally has to enter the die and that means tapping the formed case out with a punch or piece of steel rod. Pretty time consuming.

Seems as if I helped a feller swage some heads once for something. I beleive we stopped after 40 cases and didn't so any more. We learned a lesson there.

Then, in the heyday of the .22-250 when brass wasn't readily available, I helped a shooting partner make .22-250s of of .30/06 LC Match cases. That was also a learning experience in forming, trimming and reaming that I'd just as soon not do.

Head swaging is possible but I'd rather not if I can help it./beagle

dardascastbullets
09-17-2008, 03:54 PM
To one and all,

I have been using 35 Remington for conversion to 6.5 Jap, mainly because the 35 Rem brass is cheaper than others and it comes closest to be exactly correct in the head dimension although it usually comes out about .040 short in the neck length.
I've seen mention of other cartridges that can be converted, but generally I see them as being more expensive and more labor intensive to convert.

I just read in the Handloader's Manual Of Cartridge Conversions by John J. Donnelly that one can use 270 Winchester brass. He says one has to swage the base to .447. My question is what is a good lube to use to accomplish this task?

Although this is a bit more labor intensive, since new 270 brass isn't much more than 35 Rem brass it would give a more perfect replacement. Besides I have arount 300 empty, once fire 270 hulls laying around without a use to me.

I'd appreciate some thoughts for THIS conversion, especially what lube might work best for this type of swaging.

Thanks,

Edd

Hi Edd,

THE only lubricant that should be used for the application is Anhydrous Lanolin. I used to swage jacketed .30 caliber bullets and the only lubricant that my dies ever saw was pure anhydrous lanolin. It only takes a small amount rubbed into the palm of your hand - and keep your palm lubricated for subsequent cases. The swaging operation will go much smoother if you adhere to using it.

Matt
Dardas Cast Bullets

Rocky Mountain Bullets
09-17-2008, 04:06 PM
Hello Edd,
For all our swage opperations we us a mixture of 50% amhydrous lanolin & 50% mineral oil or you can use castor oil also. I perfer the mineral oil because it doesn't leave thing feeling so oily.

357maximum
09-17-2008, 04:53 PM
Pure anhydrous lanolin is what you need....there are NO substitutes.

badgeredd
09-17-2008, 05:50 PM
Thanks guys!!!!! Even though I have a pound of anhydrous lanolin sitting over there on the shelf, it never crossed my mind to use it for this. You guys are awesome with your help. Thanks and I'll let you know how it goes.

Beagle... I appreciate what you are saying and I may well change my mind after doing just a few cases. Like I said the reason I used 35 Rems in the first place was that they are NOT labor intensive. You can read that as "I'm too lazy to work at it too hard!"

Bruce Drake...I like your thinking, but remember they don't go clear through and gotta be knocked back out. Besides I don't have any on had but I think I will try a couple with a setup made using Lyman sizing dies. If it works I won't make the intermediates I had planned.

GrizzLeeBear...You know I just remembered I have some high pressure lube I can try, thanks.

Thanks all,

Edd

Baron von Trollwhack
09-17-2008, 06:00 PM
Just looking in for intresting aspects. Why does the case have to be pushed back out of the die ? Why not have a reduction die and just push it srtaight through as in the Lee ram & die sets I use for lots of bullets.? BvT

badgeredd
09-17-2008, 06:18 PM
Just looking in for intresting aspects. Why does the case have to be pushed back out of the die ? Why not have a reduction die and just push it srtaight through as in the Lee ram & die sets I use for lots of bullets.? BvT

The 6.5 Arisaka has a rim with a bigger diameter than the cartridge head.

badgeredd
09-17-2008, 07:29 PM
The old George Nonte book, Cartridge Conversions covers head swaging pretty well.

It's a pretty complicated process and takes some really heavy duty press power.

OKAY>>>>the anhydrous and the Big Max do work as a team...

One thing that makes it more difficult is that the head normally has to enter the die and that means tapping the formed case out with a punch or piece of steel rod. Pretty time consuming.

...you ain't said a bigger truth to me....

Seems as if I helped a feller swage some heads once for something. I beleive we stopped after 40 cases and didn't so any more. We learned a lesson there.

...I can now say, I FULLY understand what you mean...

Head swaging is possible but I'd rather not if I can help it./beagle

...and THAT is a sound piece of advice/wisdom!!!!

AND for anyone keeping score

Beagle 1
Edd 0

And thanks for the advice/help guys. I am sticking to the 35 Rem conversion...it may have a shorter neck BUT it is W_W_A_A_Y_Y easier!!!!

Edd

badgeredd
09-17-2008, 07:36 PM
I wonder if LEE's push through sizing dies could be used to swage the bases down in a succession of steps.

would 3 thousands at a time be too much?
.473 -. 470 - .467 -.464. - .461 - .458 - .455 - 452 - .449. - .447 (10 steps)

or would 4 thousands?
473 - 469- 465- 461- 457 - 453 - 449 - 447 (7 steps)

5 thousands?
473 - 468 - 463 - 458 - 453 - 448/7 (6 steps)

And what would the effect be on the primer holes?

I shoot 6.5 Jap as well and this has got me curious.

bruce,
I do believe that your idea would work well...especially if one did it in the 10 steps...but I honestly can't justify the time to get there from here when the 35 Rem conversion works well with the exception of the .040 shorter neck...hell, what's a silly little millimeter anyway?

ALSO read above post from me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for the primer pocket...I doubt the swaging would really effect it but knocking the case out of the dies 10 times can't be good in my thinking. Just my opinion, mind you!

runfiveswife
09-17-2008, 08:48 PM
why dont you just turn the rims down?

BruceB
09-17-2008, 09:25 PM
I made a bunch of .35 Remingtons from .308 Winchester brass. It was easy, and I'd recommend the .308 because it needs no neck reaming like .270 and .30-06 cases.

First, I sized well-lubed cases (Midway spray case-lube) in a carbide RCBS .44 Magnum sizing die. Push 'em in as far as they'll go. Sizing effort was not extreme. This sizing will throw up a very thin brass "belt" just ahead of the extractor groove. The "belt" will be easily removed in the filing step below.

Second, I flared the case mouths enough to accept the .35 sizing ball and expanded the necks while full-length sizing the brass to .35 Remington dimensions in the .35 Rem sizer die.

Attaching a 3/8 electric drill to my Forster trimmer made short work of the excess neck length.

At this point, all that was needed was a minor reduction in rim diameter and removal of that thin "belt". I did this by chucking each case in my Unimat and hand-filing the rim and the area just ahead of the rim on the case body while the case was spinning. This could easily be done in a drill -press, as well as by just clamping an electric drill in a vise and using its chuck.

Keep the rifle handy and check each case in its chamber as you go. Stop when the case enters the chamber and allows smooth lock-up of the action. You will quickly develop a 'feel' for how much to remove, how long to file, etc etc. Keep the file CLEAN, and a fine-cut new file should be selected.

These cases work great in my 336, and the process costs me nothing since all the tools etc were on hand.

454PB
09-17-2008, 09:41 PM
When I form .44 special specials from .45 ACP brass, they are pushed into the die until the rim touches the bottom. I then remove the die, turn it upside down, and replace it in the press. The die lock ring is removed for this process. I then use a 3/8" rod to push the formed round back out of the die. It's a slow way of doing things, but it works well. I use boot dressing as a lube, the same stuff I use for all my sizing and swaging jacketed bullets.

Bent Ramrod
09-18-2008, 02:09 AM
I once turned the belts off a bunch of .240 Weatherby Magnum shells and pushed them through a series of shop-made dies in an effort to get the head sizes down for my .236 Lee Navy. (.220 Swift cases can be used, but they are too short.) These dies were push-through and if I recall there were four of them, each taking the head down a few thousandths from the previous die. The punch I used had a little extension on the end that exactly fitted the primer pocket, which would have deformed or collapsed otherwise. I used a big hydraulic press in the Auto Shop Class at the community college. I used Corbin Swage Lube.

It was plenty tiring hauling on that lever, and it took a lot of hauling. But sometimes you just got to have the right length shells, if only to satisfy your curiosity.

However, Norma makes 6.5 Japanese brass; if you value your time and your aching muscles, it's a bargain.

bruce drake
09-19-2008, 05:31 AM
BruceB and Bent RamRod,

Sounds like this is a doable plan using the 44Magnum carbide die and a file to get to 35 Rem dimensions. From there it is a simple two-stage reform that I am already doing to convert 35 Rem to 6.5 JAP.

I can easily spin up a punch with the primer pocket extension on the end to fit in my press when I get home. I think the multiple push through sizing dies could work since the 308 is rimless, but as you all stated, it'll take some grunting on the levers.

The main reason I'm looking to swage down the 308 or 243 cases is to better fit my loose chamber dimensions to allow me a longer case life.

uscra112
09-24-2008, 10:41 PM
I've made quite a lot of .25-20 single shot brass, (the parent for .22-3000 Lovell) by swaging down .223 brass. It takes a heck of a reduction to the head size, and I don't swage the rim - I stop short of that, because .25-20SS is a rimmed case.

My technique uses a .30-30 die I had, which has the right diameter NECK. I made a punch, which needed a pilot in the primer hole to keep it from shrinking, and then went to work on my small hydraulic bench press. The body of the punch is about .30-30 shape, so it keeps itself pretty well aligned as it goes home. A shoulder on the punch sets the depth. The business end of the punch is slightly concave. This keeps the rim from trying to fold back into a dish shape. (My first punch failed to do this.) The pin in the primer pocket is actually an inserted piece, pressed into a bore in the face of the punch. This made cutting the concave face a whole lot easier.

For my project, the cases have to be driven out of the die. I did that using another punch in an adjacent arbor press.

Slow work, but I've made about 500 cases so far. The die leaves a fillet right by the rim, which has to be machined off in the lathe, but after sectioning a few of these, I'm very happy with the amount of brass still there.

So, if you can find an ordinary sizing die with the right size neck, and you can make the requisite punch, and have an adequate press, you have your tooling.

Pick a die for a cartridge with a nice shallow taper between the shoulder and the neck - a steep one will require much more pressure.

If you want to reduce the rim, then your punch can be long enough to drive the case right through, and the driving-out step is eliminated.

Remember that a sizing die's neck will be smaller than the nominal neck size for the case, when choosing your die.

I have also messed with using commercial drill bushings for this task. It used to be that you could buy these easily at any mill supply house, but with the advent of CNC machinery, nobody uses them much anymore. They are now special order, but they can still be had.

TAWILDCATT
10-31-2008, 04:37 PM
why not buy GRAFs 6.5 jap cases at $39 per 100.Privi Partizian brass.I do,I do have 35 rem made in jap and it is good fit.

Safeshot
10-31-2008, 08:40 PM
Graf & Sons (www.grafs.com/) has 6.5 mm Japanese Rifle Brass for $39.99 per hundred (primed or un-primed). They pay the shipping - You pay $4.50 for handling and insurance. Hope this helps, Safeshot

bruce drake
10-31-2008, 10:10 PM
You guys remember the other thread that was started about being frugal....

I figure if I can reform several hundred 308 Winchester cases over my lifetime, I will have saved enough to pay for the Swage Dies I bought off another collector on another forum.

I have the collector machinist's contact information if anyone wants to talk to him for their own set of dies. He's a full-time farmer and does machine work on the side (like Buckshot) so it took him a while to make them. I get home from Iraq next week and I intend to try them out before December rolls around. I'll provide a report on the 308Win to 6.5 JAP swage dies when I've completed the test.

Doug Bowser
11-02-2008, 08:20 AM
I guess I am lazy. I would buy 6.5 Jap brass from www.grafs.com and save the time for shooting.

bruce drake
11-02-2008, 12:45 PM
Doug,

Garage time is just as much fun as shooting to me.

Bruce

rockrat
11-03-2008, 09:22 AM
I don't remember if it is Midway, or Brownells, that I bought some case forming lube from. It is a dark burgendy in color and works well. Worked better than imperial wax.

Morgan Astorbilt
11-03-2008, 09:56 AM
Sorry for the double post. I was editing, and it came up as a seperate post.
Morgan

Morgan Astorbilt
11-03-2008, 10:04 AM
I've posted here a couple of times about case head swaging using lathe turned dies and a heavy bench vise. I've always used the same lube I use for my rifle cases, 50/50 anhydrous lanolin and Vaseline. This formula was given to me by P.O.Ackley, as a case lube and gun grease. The lanolin lifts any existing moisture from the gun preventing rust. This was 50yrs ago, when the only alternative was Cosmoline.

An excellent extreme high pressure grease is Bel-Ray Mollylube 126 EP Grease 2 #232404379. I use it all the time in my shop when I can't use ball bearing centers in my lathe, but it's too messy to get all over your hands.

BTW, using turned dies and a vise, you should be able to do the job in four steps. Even with the lube, you'll need to knock out the cases with a rod and hammer.
Morgan

45 2.1
11-03-2008, 10:08 AM
I reform 308 military brass to 6.5 Jap a lot. I turn the base and part of the case wall off with a lathe (the wall thickness is greater than in commercial brass after the military brass is sized and turned BTW). It would be a lot easier on me if I turned a recess for the normal base and a taper into my extra size die, then the lathe turning would be quite easy.