50 yds-100 yds then 200 yds

[randyrat]

I was able to master my rifle,load, and bullet at 50-and 100 yds (nice tite groups-nope i'm not going to brage) but 200 yds was a challange the best i could do was 5" group. Now for the details- I shooting a marlin 336 with ballard rifling tirdy-tirdy using a 170-309 F Gas checked tumble lubing with ALlox. Using slightly harder alloy than WWs Tin added to the WWs ( i go by weight not hardness) No leading with over 100 rounds. Yes it was scoped with a Nikon BDC. The 50 &100 yd i was right on the cross hairs. 200 yds i was using the 2nd circle down which covered at least 125% of the intended group. My eyes are not what they used to be so i use a scope. What/where can i go from here or am i out shooting the gun? I've tried factory jacketed bullets and they don't come close to my cast bullets ( no i haven't tried all factory rounds but a bunch) i still think i can get a couple more inches out of this bullet. Where can i go from here. I've never been this close to victory with a lever gun before and cast bullets so i'm pumped up. If my eyes hold up on a good day i think i can shoot 3"groups @200 yds with a lever gun. Is it possible? Where do i go from here? I don't want to hear stories of 1" groups at 200 yds with a lever gun:twisted: i'll snap.

[Buckshot]

...............Some of this may apply, may apply with modification (for the platform) and you may already be doing some of this.

First up, no mention of leading so that's good. Your accuracy is already darn good IMHO for a levergun. Sounds like everything you're doing so far is jake. All my recomendations are merely refinements of what you normally do in reloading cast.

1) Use neck sized cases, or partial F/L sizing.
2) After trimming all your cases (same headstamp), scale them into 1/2 grain (max) batches. Smaller if your brass is more consistant.
3) Scale your boolits before lubing or sizing. Strive for .1 or .2 tenths batches.
4) Scale each powder charge.
5) Try a roll crimp if taper crimping, and vise versa.
6) Try a heavier or lighter crimp.
7) Try a different primer. Ist & biggest change is to go to a pistol primer if using a rifle primer, and vise versa.
8) Depending upon firings, anneal the brass.

Remember to change only one thing at a time.

...............Buckshot

[Larry Gibson]

randyrat

What is the load and velocity?

You can do the things that Buckshot mentions and they would probably help some. Still, as Buckshot also mentions, 5" with a lever gun at 200 yards (even with a scope) ain't too shabby! There are other things that happen to cast bullets as the range increases. Any defects will be accentuated by group size and most often it's not linear (a 1.5" group at 100 = a 3" group at 200) . In a recent test with 311291 at 1912 fps out of a .308W I shot a 10 shot group at 50 yards of .7". At 100 yards the group was 1.55" and at 200 yards the group was 4.25" with 9 in 2.5" but one flyer made it larger. At 50 and 100 yards it was pretty near linear but at 200 yards the defect showed. I imagine if i weighed the bullets as suggested the flyer might disappear. Keep trying with that marlin, never know when you'll meet success.

Larry Gibson

[jjamna]

I know you want more and that is GREAT but I would be happy with 3 inch groups at 200 with any gun.

[randyrat]

Yes thats what i'm looking for, there are a few things i could improve on. Sometimes we forget the basics and need a reveiw/reminder. Us auto pistol loaders just grab a bunch of brass and start loading sometimes we need a humbleing experience to give us respect for you rifle guys. One thing shooting pistol, i never gave my heart rate a second thought, now i do with a rifle. I forgot to mention the load- 170-.309 f gc (179-181 grs) seated at 2.56 under 26 1/2 grs of IMR 30-31 I worked this load up and hit 26.5 grs and stopped it was accurate at 100 yds so i never went more. Thank you guys

[Larry Gibson]

randyrat

That is a pretty decent load so I'd focus on the items Buckshot mentions, particularly these;

Weight the bullets (Buckshot says "scale", means the same) and seperate into batches. Some strive for the .1 to .2 gr as mentioned but I've found that +/-.5 is good with a bullet of that weight. Up to you though on what you want to do. Trim off any excess sprue with a sharp knife before weighing.

Necksize the cases, trim to consistant length and sort by make and weight.

Use .30 M die for .309- sized bullets and a .31 M die for larger sized bullets.

How are you seating the GCs? The base of the bullet must be bottomed out in the GC and they must be square. There are numerous methods for this, I use the GC seater on the Lyman 450.

To crimp the GCs I then run through a Lee sizer of as cast diameter or as close to it as I have.

I then lube in a Lyman 450 with a sizer equal or .001" larger than the bullet. I assume since you are tumble lubing you don't have a .450? That's ok for the velocity you are getting. However, Lee is very proud of the fact that his LLA stays on the bullet, and it does. Make sure the LLA is evenly appied during tubling. If there is a large glob or a thicker layer on one side then you have unbalanced the bullet.

A switch to a slower burning powder may also help but frankly I doubt it. Your load is right in the pressure/velocity/RPM area for optimum accuracy. I use a very similar load of 4895 which is only slightly slower burning than 3031. Before switching to a slower powder I would suggest using a Dacron filler over the powder. I suggest you try 1/2 and 3/4 gr.

A switch to a different primer may also help, LPs as Buckshot suggested. However Iv'e found that using a primer with less brisance not only alters the time pressure curve of the burning propellant but also invariably lowers velocity. This also reduces RPM which lessons its adverse affect on any imbalances of the bullet. If the alloy is not hard enough it also lessens the obturation of the bullet during accelleration.

The hardness of your WW with tin added alloy is right on the ragged edge of withstanding the accelleration at the velocity/pressure of your load. I'd suggest water quenching the bullets to harden them a little. Or scrounge up some lino type and try an alloy of 60/40 WWs/linotype.

I think the key to your success is going to be matching the componants to the task and keeping things very consistent in loading and shooting. You don't mention velocity so I also assume you don't have a chronograph(?). You might consider getting one. The chronograph will provide valuable information on the consistency of the load as measured by the extreme spread (ES) of the velocities. This may or may not be important for 50 and 100 yard group shooting but it begins to be critical at 200 yards and beyond.

Finally, I do admire your quest for consistent 3" cast bullet groups at 200 yards with your Marlin lever rifle. Most would be happy to do that at 100 yards. I've not really worked at it as I've not had this M94 Black shadow (w/4X Weaver scope) that long but I did shoot a five shot 5.9" 200 yard group with it using my standard 30-30 cast hunting load of a very soft 311041HP over 30 gr 4895 at 2122 fps. As with my M94 carbine the first 3 shots with this load out of a clean barrel will go into 1 1/2-2" at 100 yards. The last 2 shots always open the group to 2-3" because of fouling. With the 200 yard group the first 3 shots went into right at 4". That is close enough for deer as 200 yards is the max range I'll shoot with a cast bullet. Most deer I have killed have been under 100 yards anyways. My accuracy load for the M94 carbine (1.5X Burris scout scope) is a 311291 over 26 gr 4895 with a 1/2 gr dacron filler. Velocity is 1860 fps and I've shot many a 10 shot 2" 100 yard group with it.

This is all probably an information overload but keep at it and keep us informed of your progress and success.

Larry Gibson

[randyrat]

Thank You! Thank You! Very good info. I do intend on a chronograph. I keep spending my (wee little) gun money for guns. A new found challange may drive me in that direction soon.

[oso]

Randy, if I could get 3" at 200 yds I'd go to 300 yds!

[runfiverun]

of all the suggestions larry and toby's friend made, i would try the filler first.
the case trimming ,cutting,etc should be part of your regimine already if you are seeking
accuracy.
the second thing i would do is partial neck sizing.
adding each thing to the list as you go and check your progress with each step.
each one may add a little but 5 littles make an inch.
have fun

[SCIBUL]

Hello gentlemen.
I'm a french shooter and gun writer and I like to read your posts since several month now. I have bought a MARLIN 30-30 (336 A) on august 2005 and this one had shoot nothing but cast. It wears a WEAVER V9 scope and I have been amazed of the results. This lever gun regulary shoots 1 MOA (1 1/4") at 100 meters (110 yards). The mould is a LYMAN 311041 and bullets are made of straight WW. I lube them with LYMAN Moly, put a HORNADY gas check and size them at .310. Brass are R-P primed with CCI 200. The power charge is 22 grs of Vihtavuori N130 with dacron filler. In my rifle this round gives 1666fps. I tried this at 200m but I wasn't able to print a better group than 4 or 5" bit I hav'nt weight the bullets too [smilie=1:
Oh I forgot to say that the rifling is micro grooves (like other MARLINS I own [smilie=1:)
Hope this help.

[Freightman]

Welcome SCIBUL !

[jameslovesjammie]

SCIBUL,

Welcome and nice results!

[Buckshot]

..............SCIBUL, welcome to the board. It's the next day and I see you still only have that one post. Come on now :-)! You're a gun writer for goodness sakes. Since my French is no where near as good as your English (or American :veryconfu) give us a translation of one of your articles.

BTW, great shooting with your levergun. It doesn't happen to have Micro-Gruv rifling does it? Nice boolit selection for it too!

....................Buckshot

[SCIBUL]

Hello to all ant thanks for your reception.
For Buckshot, I'll scan you an (or several) article if you want but the translation should take a little more time [smilie=1: My english is a little laborious. The MARLIN 336 shown here is for sure a micro grooved and I have shoosen the boolet after some hours of reading this forum :coffee:... Like the Lyman Gould I use in my 1895.

[randyrat]

Hello gentlemen.
I'm a french shooter and gun writer and I like to read your posts since several month now. I have bought a MARLIN 30-30 (336 A) on august 2005 and this one had shoot nothing but cast. It wears a WEAVER V9 scope and I have been amazed of the results. This lever gun regulary shoots 1 MOA (1 1/4") at 100 meters (110 yards). The mould is a LYMAN 311041 and bullets are made of straight WW. I lube them with LYMAN Moly, put a HORNADY gas check and size them at .310. Brass are R-P primed with CCI 200. The power charge is 22 grs of Vihtavuori N130 with dacron filler. In my rifle this round gives 1666fps. I tried this at 200m but I wasn't able to print a better group than 4 or 5" bit I hav'nt weight the bullets too [smilie=1:
Oh I forgot to say that the rifling is micro grooves (like other MARLINS I own [smilie=1:)
Hope this help. Welcome SCIBUL Sounds like i have a challange! from across the ocean. That is some fine shooting. I do need some time to cast some more bullets and let them age, find a neck sizer die, and practice more just to catch up to your fine shooting. I'll give it a heck of a try. I had a chance yesterday to load up some and work on this but, a hay ride with the kids was more important and the weather was fantastic!

[SCIBUL]

Hello Randyrat.
No challenge at all :takinWiz:
Only shooting pleasure here. I don't doubt that your rifle is able to do as well if you find the right loading technique. Mine is simple : Full sising and LYMAN M die for belling the brass.

[BABore]

When you do get that load chronographed, pay close attention to the extreme spread. I typically use CCI 200 primers for my 30-30. When I see the ES in the 30-50 fps range, I'll switch to Federal 210M's. In alot of cases they will lower the ES to single digits. I had a similar case with my 450 Marlin. It shot real close to an inch at 100 yards. At 200 yards it was close to four inches. The ES was 47 fps. Switched to 210M's and the ES went to 7 fps. The 200 yard group was nearly cut in half.

Bottom line is that you got a pretty good load going for you. Now is the time for the little tweaks. Do them one at a time and document their affect. Incidently, I was using 26.5 grs of 3031 until I lapped my bore. Had to up it to 27 grs afterwards.

I didn't see where you said what you were sizing tour boolits at. I did see that you were using a levergun. Would this be a Marlin with Microgroove rifling by chance? If so, shoot the biggest boolit that will slip fit into the fired case. MG bbls like big boolits. Anywhere from 0.311 to 0.312.

[felix]

The difference in trajectory is amazing between boolits/bullets having different diameters. Measuring the ES would take a lot of time off finding the best pressure curve. My latest adventure is making a 270 and 243 shoot with Core-Lokts. The 270 bullets are 0.0005 over nominal; the 243 bullets are 0.0005 under nominal. No wonder the published loads cannot be relied upon, assuming the respective barrels are standard nominal or in the opposite direction of the bullet variance from that norm. ... felix

[runfiverun]

scibul
welcome, that is an excellent picture.
good lighting and nice detail.

[Jeffery8mm]

Question for Buckshot..... Is it safe to sub primers as you suggested?? Not being smart, or dumb, I just would like to know.
Thanks
Jeff

[randyrat]

BABore, I haven't tweeked anything yet. this is just basic generic loading without weighing/calling bullets or brass, full length sizing whatever brass i grab, one kind of primer so far. It is a 1949 336 with ballard rifling. it's been carried thru the woods way more than it's been shot. It also has a hole in the chamber"""not by me""""" that i patched (thanks to the advice from many members here).... SCIBUL, all in fun....

[Buckshot]

Question for Buckshot..... Is it safe to sub primers as you suggested?? Not being smart, or dumb, I just would like to know.
Thanks
Jeff

...............Hey Jeff, it is safe because randyrat wasn't pushing the envelope. Pleanty of room for changing primers, altering crimps, and stuff like boolit seating depth.

................Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

Another "Welcome Aboard", SCIBUL! Your English as presented herein as better than a lot of what gets spoken and written by Americans. No worries.

Right fine shooting with that 30-30!