Tumble lube molds other than Lee?

[kamikaze1a]

Does anyone other than Lee have tumble lube molds for the 45 acp? I've been using the 200gr swc and like tumble lubing (with no sizing) but started having extracting problems lately which everyone in my club insists is because I am suing a swc in an auto. They all say stop being subborn and use a round nose but the Lee 230gr round nose has the same shoulder at the base of the ogive that is giving me problems now so don't think it will be any better. I do see the truncated cone so will probably try that if I can't find anything else...

Also, wonderig how many of you are using the Lee 200gr swc tl in an auto? Any failure to extracts that peel back a small bit of your case mouth? From what I am seeing, the empty case is running into the next rounds case mouth and gouging the boolit and peeling back the case mouth.

[jonk]

I use the same mold but not tumble lube- the standard design, but same profile. I did have some failure to feed but solved that.

Bullet style shouldn't affect extraction- this issue would happen with RN bullets, but the bullet profile would let the case slip out easer. Stilll, you don't want a brass case dragging over your bullets on extraction, that just isn't quite right. What it could be is that your mag is a bit high raising the next round too high so you are getting this semi-obstruction. RN bullets might help this if you are seating the SWC slightly below the brass height but again, I'd still think something isn't quite right.

What type of gun?

[Bill*]

Kamikaze1A; Had the same peeling back of the case mouth problem. See the post about it: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=35511 ..............Bill

[randyrat]

Seat your bullets out a little further and your problems will go away. Or buy a bunch of molds to the same dismay.

[kamikaze1a]

Jonk, Sig P220. And I don't think bullet style is directly affecting my extraction, rather the bullet style is of the next round is interfering with the extraction of the spent casing. I think part of the problem is the shoulder at the transition from the ogive to the shank and the other part is due to the round "following" the loading round. When I strip a round by lowering or dropping the slide, the next round follows or rather is dragged forward a bit and is sitting higher than it should be. Because it is sitting higher or actually too high, it gets in the way of the empty casing being extracted. From what I have read, the 2nd round following is not unusual for Sigs. As a matter of fact, Sig now has a ridge on the inside of their mags in hopes that it will limit the forward movement of the next round. Take a look at this (http://www.sigforum.com/) this image and you can see the ridge that runs parallel to the travel of the rounds. Unfortunately, my mags don't have the ridge. It's actually very unfortunate because I like these Lee 200gr swc's but I guess I have to surrender and get a mold that does not have the shoulder. I found a lot of great info this afternoon and following Bill's link above gave me a confirmation that it would probably be easiest to get the Lee 230gr TC TL. Thanks for all the info, Jonk and Bill

[kamikaze1a]

randyrat, I'm using the Lee microgroove TL 200gr swc and seating to cover the last groove. To seat any less deep, I would be leaving the groove exposed. Would leaving the groove exposed be ok? I've never seated it like that and might be worth a try... That particular Lee boolit's nose is extra short so seating it to the depth I do gives me an extra short OAL.

[kamikaze1a]

Got side tracked...still wondering if anyone else other than Lee that makes a tumble lube mold?

[Cloudpeak]

I bought a Lyman 200 SWC 4 cavity mold to replace both of my Lee 45 molds. The Lyman bullet mold isn't a "tumble lube" design but I tumble them with LLA and get along fine.

I never had the type of case damage on my 45's (both Springfield Armory 1911's) like you have but did run into this problem on occasion with the 105 gr SWC 9mm bullet in my CZ Compact. I played with seating depth and I think those problems might be behind me now.

Cloudpeak

[TAWILDCATT]

I shot compitition since 1969 and never had that problem.the machines are set to roll crimp on first band leaving 1/3 out of case.I used H&G and saeco[original].now use Lee tumble and regular.my guns are all 1911.colt and AMT.and I use target load 3.6 gr 700X or bullseye with 200 gr swc.:coffee:[smilie=1:

[Treeman]

I have had very happy results tumble lubing all sorts of boolits. I haven't lost much sleep over having lube on the exposed bullet nose so I see no reason to fret about leaving a microband/groove exposed.

[randyrat]

Seems to me i loaded longer (without looking at my notes) and i had absolutly no feeding/extracting problems after i did so. My theory is the bullet prevents the shoulder of the brass from catching-less of an angle. You'll never see ball ammo catching like that. Theories are proven wrong all the time.

[kamikaze1a]

Very interesting.... Will experiment with seating depth and see if it makes a diff. It could very well be the trick I need. If the rim contacts the shank instead of the ogive, it may just slip past the shell mouth instead of peeling back the case mouth.

Treeman, you are sizing those conventional grooved boolits? For me, that's part of the charm of the Lee tumble lube, no sizing.

[Treeman]

Mostly tumbling and shooting as cast but some have been sized and retumblelubed.

[mooman76]

Tumble Lube is kind of Lees idea and to my knowledge no one else has made one. It doesn't have to be a TL bullet to use the Lube on them and if they cast the right size you can shoot them as is.

[kamikaze1a]

Hornady used to sell a swaged LSWC that had "knurling" instead of microgrooves and it was tumble lubed. Did not look like it was sized either. The way I see it, the micro grooves or knurling in Hornady's case, would conform to the bore easier than a solid surface like the shank of conventional cast boolits. Just concerned about not sizing with non-tumble lube boolits. I have the sizer-luber, just no dies or punches. I had great results with those Horandys with no leading. Switched to commercially produced hard cast with single lube groove and got some leading. Since I started casting my own with Lee tumble lube, zero leading....but darn jamming during extraction problem.

Question for you that size/lube, is that procedure more for the lubing function or sizing? Or both? Opinions please...

[Treeman]

Kamikaze, Guys use lubrisizers for either or both functions-sizing and lubing. IF I size (mostly I don't but I have a couple of moulds that drop boolits too big) I use the Lee system which works super well and requires no nose punches. I TL the boolits first so they won't gall in the sizer die.

[kamikaze1a]

Treeman, thanks for your post! I almost forgot that I have that Lee sizer die... My friend just dropped me off a bunch of molds to use. Mostly 2 bangers though. Going to try playing with seating depth of my TL's before I cast anything new... Thanks for the input!

[kamikaze1a]

Well, it looks like the seating depth idea hit a bump in the road. I had been seating to the middle of the last "band" with is considerably less than the max OAL. I backed out the seater plug and seated to 1.25 and the completed round just fit the mag. Problem is, checked the headspace and found that with the short nose of Lee's 200gr TL SWC, the shoulder touching before the case and was keeping the slide from going into battery. I guess the boolit was engaging the forcing cone... In any case, it's a bit longer but way under max OAL and may not be enough to cure the extraction inteference. I guess the Lee 230gr TL TC may be in my future.

[Ricochet]

You'll still need to seat that 230 grain TC boolit till the last "band" is inside the case or nearly so. Won't seat out to the length of the round nose and function.

[Cloudpeak]

kamikaze1a,

I'd invest in a Lyman 452630 4 cavity mold. This is a 200 SWC bullet that is a very close copy of the H&G 68 which the Lee designs are not. Switching molds solved my 1911 45 ACP problem of occasional FTF that I had with the Lee. As you found out, you can't seat the Lee bullet long or you will jam into the rifling. No such problem with the Lyman bullet in my two Springfield 1911's.

The Lyman will last forever and will hold it's value and condition whereas the Lee, being made of aluminum, won't. I like the Lee 6 cavity molds and still have two in 9mm. I've cast thousands of 45 cal and 9mm and the Lee's produced good bullets but I'm really glad I made the switch to Lyman for the 45 SWC's.

Cloudpeak

[45nut]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=398951#post398951

like that one Cloudpeak?

[Cloudpeak]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=398951#post398951

like that one Cloudpeak?

Yep, that's the one. I've shot several thousand rounds of that bullet through my Springfield's without a hiccup. All the bullets drop at the same diameter and easily fall out. As much as I like to save money (Lee molds), I'd never go back to the Lee 45 SWC 45 molds after casting and shooting these bullets out of that great, Lyman mold.

Cloudpeak

[kamikaze1a]

I'm not sure what to try at this point. Prior to using the Lee TL, I loaded a commercial 200gr swc that had a longer nose and I had the same FTExtract and peeled brass. It also had the shoulder above the shank and tried seating depth but never could figure out how to correct the problem. That swc looked like this;

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii105/kamikaze1a/200SWCSmall.jpg

Before that, I loaded a Hornady lswc that does not seem to be available any longer and did not have the sharp shoulder like the Lee or the swc in my picture. The Lyman you suggested does seem to have a smaller shoulder to trip up the extracting case rim and may work. The reason I like the TC is that it has no sharp shoulder or ledge to catch the rim, not to say that the Lyman you suggested will not work though. I am not sure if it is my Sig or my magazines but if I don't figure out a cure, I may have to stop shooting ths P220 at matches and swich to my G35...

[Cloudpeak]

Sounds like the TC might be a good choice. I guess you don't know until you try.

Did you ask about this problem on the Sig forums? It would be interesting to see what they say.

I had a similar, intermittent problem with my CZ Compact. It happened with the Lee 105 gr. SWC. I had no problem with the Lee 124 gr RN which does have a slight "shoulder". I think I know what the problem was. The 105 gr. bullet is a short round- 1.015" COAL as opposed to the 124 gr. loaded to a COAL of 1.125". When the slide went forward to pick up the top round in the mag, as soon as it was stripped from the mag, the next round popped up and the center rail on the slide drug on the top round and moved it forward. This made the nose higher so that, when the fired round was ejected, the top round was in the way. With the 124 grain bullet, the COAL was long enough that, even though the center rail was rubbing the top round, it didn't move forward enough in the mag to cause a problem with the ejecting case because the nose of the round was stopped from going too far forward by the front of the mag. Did I say that so it makes sense?

Have you fired a few rounds, dropped the mag and observed the position of the top round in the mag?

Hope this helps.

Cloudpeak

[kamikaze1a]

Yup, the next round followed, moved forward and was sticking up to much. The Sig mags have nubs that contact the rim of the 2nd round as is supposed to keep that next round from moving forward but does not seem to work all the time. I asked on the Sig forum and no one seemed to be having the same problem, none that replied anyway. This is driving me crazy and like I said, didn't happen with the Hornady swc... The other club members keep saying "round nose" and I'm just being stubborn. Looks like I may have to "bite the bullet" and buy another mold.

[Cloudpeak]

Yup, the next round followed, moved forward and was sticking up to much. The other club members keep saying "round nose" and I'm just being stubborn. Looks like I may have to "bite the bullet" and buy another mold.

So, a properly designed 200 SWC might work. You'd be able to seat it long enough so the mag keeps the top round from moving forward and yet, unlike the "short nose" Lee, it would feed reliably without jamming into the rifling.


The other club members keep saying "round nose" and I'm just being stubborn.


Well, good for you. Some club members are probably like some of the folks around here. Couldn't pour water out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel.


Looks like I may have to "bite the bullet" and buy another mold

Well, if you buy one that drops a bullet that functions and shoots well, that's a pretty good "bang for the buck" deal to me:-D

Cloudpeak

Just for the heck of it, Penns 200 SWC (virtually identical to the Lyman bullet) on the left and the non-tumble lube Lee on the right.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/WyoBob/Guns/DSCN1441.jpg

[kamikaze1a]

I'll check if I stashed one of those Harnady swc's and take a pic. I hope I didn't blast 'em all... Thanks for the input! Good shooting!