Any tips for tightening up my cast boolit groups with my ruger 77/44?

[Tripplebeards]

Don't think the rifle will ever shoot MOA or better at a 100 yards but I'd like to see it to be able to shoot at least 1.25". I have tried Lee 310's and worked h110 up and down in .2 gr increments from start to finish and never shot under 2.5". I now have been testing the Lyman devastators in it. I out of the clear blue loaded 23.8 gr of w296 and tested it last week and shot 2.3". I loaded them at 1.640" and used a Lee collet die to crimp them. I loaded up some more with w296 and tested this morning. Here are my 100 yard groups. As you can see my 23.8 gr load of w296 was my tightest group at 2".

21.5gr/4.05"
22gr/3.6"
22.5gr/3.8"
23.gr/2.4"
23.2gr/3.1"
23.5gr/4.4"
23.8gr/2.0"
24gr/3.6"

http://i.imgur.com/0udV8nu.jpg

I partially blame the trigger and think it might tighten groups if I Lighten it a little. My boolits are PC GC and are sorted to 1 gr of each other. I'm using Winchester brass. All are trimmed to the same length after sizing.

I can say in my short time of this last year testing cast boolits in two different rifles when you find a load that shoots bumping up or down .2 gr can open it from a 1.1" group( my 450bs ruger American) to 3.6" plus. Cast boolits aren't as forging as j words as far as close counts when working loads up and down with powder charges. J word testing in other rifles I own go from clover leaves to 1 3/4" groups from a good load to a powder charge the rifle doesn't like. With cast boolits I've tested all have groups as tight as 1.1" at a 100 yards and working the powder up and down I'll get as large as a 6.6" group. I'm shooting off a bench with a lead sled and am capable of shooting cloverleaves with j words in 9 of my rifles and I know everyone has a bad day at the range from now and then with flinching but I know I'm capable as long as my rifle is able to shoot. My avatar is a 100 yard group I shot with j words and a 14.5" bbl p415.

Any suggestions on how to tighten my groups?

[MT Gianni]

How does it do with Jacketed? Is the bullet diameter greater than the bore? You are spanking a heavy bullet hard, have you tried pushing a medium weight with a mid range powder?
To requote the late Bruce Bannister "When did a group get to be less than 10 shots?" See what happens when you shoot 10. Do they fall in place in the circle? Widen it to 6"? We really don't have enough information there to act on.
If mid range weights shoot well at 1200 fps, then see if the 310 gr does. If it does play with lube, alloy and fit at faster speeds. If it shoots well at 1200 fps see when groups open up.

[Time Killer]

If you are using flat pointed bullets are they dropping below the sound barrier before hitting the target during flight. This can cause slight destabilization and account for larger groups. Should not be affecting a bullet the size of a 44 very much though. Just something to look at when looking at the variables. You may need to change bullet weight to make it stay above the sound barrier (Lighter) or below the sound barrier (heavier). But like MT Gianni stated we do not have enough information to go on. (Type bullet, Velocity, SD, ES). I know my 357 rifle is picky about the weight and type of bullet it likes also.

[turtlezx]

3 shot groups are for bragging rights shoot 10 shots and know for sure whats the best
you can take a gun that shoots 2" groups at 100 yds and shoot 3 shot groups all day and may see some 1/2" groups

[Tripplebeards]

My devastators after PC and GC weigh 270 grains. I haven't ran these loads accross my chrony but ran a devastator with 21 gr loading last year at 1675fps. My boolits are sized .001 over bore diameter. I would assume the 23.8 gr load is around 1800 fps. BH is 13.5. Id have to load trail boss to drop to 1200 fps and if I'm shooting that low of a velocity it defeats the purpose IMO to shoot 44 mags out of a 16" bbl. Never have shot a 10 shot group in my life...guess I'll have to try. I'm a hunter and never have hadn't to rake over three shots at an animal nor would if I missed after three attempts...id pack it up and go home. I have not ran jacketed bullets through this rifle. Bought it new last year. I've ran a good 2-300 cast boolits through it since. From what I've researched its pretty hard to get a ruger 77/44 to group better than 2 MOA even with jacketed bullets at a 100 yards. Was hoping we had a couple members here that beat the odds with this rifle and can give me some advise.

I tried one loading of a Lee 245gr hp GC and PC today loaded at 1.575" with 23 gr of w296 just for giggles. Sized .001 over. I wanted to see how they function in my rifle. They feed fine but shot about a 6" plus group at a hundred yards.

[Tripplebeards]

I just removed the sear, polished it and repolished my trigger group along with removing a coil from the spring. I lightened it up to maybe 2- 2.5 lbs. I forgot that I did not float the barrel as it wasn't touching all the way down the bolt side but was touching up and down the receiver side. That factory Tupperware stock is so flimsy that when I grip it I can see it flex and come into contact with more barrel surface. I floated it all the way back from an inch to inch and a half in front of the tang so it has enough room to flex and still not touch the barrel. Taking a brake now and then drilling some small holes in the front tang area to lock the acraglass job I'm going to be giving it. Hopefully this will eliminate some of my flyers and tighten my groups up. I did this to my savage 220 20 gauge slugger. It took it from a couple inch groups to all touching...a 3/4" group at a 100 yards...and no not a 10 shot group.lol

[Tripplebeards]

Cancel the acraglass. I just looked at how the ruger receiver is made and didn't realize that the glass can ooze above the front receiver screw and lock it in place. I'm use to glassing 700's. I'll have to retest my load In the next couple days and see how the free floating affects the group. The action literally wedges in the stock so I don't see how glassing is going to have any benefit. I have been googling that the Tupperware stocks on these are prone to flyers because they are so flimsy and floating them takes care of the issue. I guess I'll see next trip to the range.

[winelover]

Try neck sizing your brass, rather than full length sizing. Preferably, with RCBS Cowboy dies. What type/brand of expander are you using? With cast, it should be at least a Lyman "M" expander.

Winelover

[Tripplebeards]

RCBS three die set in grey box. Believe they're carbide.

[Tripplebeards]

Woke up this morning and couldn't help myself. I removed about another quarter of a coil spring and trigger is beautiful, light and crisp now. I've been googling all over the last couple days and no luck with any pics of someone bedding a 77/44 or 77/357. I winged it and went to town. I drilled a bunch of little holes in different directions and scratched the surface with a utility knife to lock in the acraglass in place in my synthetic stock. I've done it like this in the past with great success. I would have liked to go and inch and a half in front of the tang but the way the stock is designed I would need a ton of acraglass to fill in the cavity that sits in front of the tang. I put a couple coats of Johnsons paste wax on everything, dammed up the cavities with Plato, and applied a little painters tape for extra protection. I didn't want to overkill it with acraglass and just put in a modest amount in the front and rear mounting hole areas. I also stuck Plato in above the front tang so acraglass won't creep in and lock it into my rifle. It's drying as I post this.

http://i.imgur.com/kyRngbJ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/uR71Nnq.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/oFFSRvo.jpg

[Grmps]

start @ 23.8gr/2.0" and go up and down in .05 grain increments
play a little with diameter, alloy, and powder (your gun may like a different powder better)
It takes time and experimentation to find the sweet spot/combination

Get closer to the target :)

[Jeffrey]

I had good luck tightening groups by deburring primer flash holes https://www.midwayusa.com/product/729748/lyman-flash-hole-uniformer-tool and uniforming the primer pocket. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6249483001/k-and-m-primer-pocket-correction-tool . The first tool removes burrs from the inside of the primer flash hole so the primer's flash ignites the powder consistently every time. The second tool squares the bottom of the primer pocket so the firing pin hits a fully bottomed out primer every time. The nice thing about these tools is that a piece of brass only needs treatment once.

[Leadmad]

I had good luck tightening groups by deburring primer flash holes https://www.midwayusa.com/product/729748/lyman-flash-hole-uniformer-tool and uniforming the primer pocket. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6249483001/k-and-m-primer-pocket-correction-tool . The first tool removes burrs from the inside of the primer flash hole so the primer's flash ignites the powder consistently every time. The second tool squares the bottom of the primer pocket so the firing pin hits a fully bottomed out primer every time. The nice thing about these tools is that a piece of brass only needs treatment once.

I second that, ask any BPCR shooter what's the first thing he does with new brass before he fills up the cases

[Tripplebeards]

start @ 23.8gr/2.0" and go up and down in .05 grain increments
play a little with diameter, alloy, and powder (your gun may like a different powder better)
It takes time and experimentation to find the sweet spot/combination

Get closer to the target :)

Did that, 23.8gr grouped the best going from 24 gr to 21.5gr...I even tried in .2 gr increments. Anyone have any lil gun load info?

[Tripplebeards]

I forgot that I never messed with floating the barrel or bedding the stock being my original plan when bought it was to send it in to get a silent destroyer made out it. Then they were discontinued so I left it alone to keep it original. Of course ruger 6 months later as a sales gimmic decided they were not discontinuing them.

I haven't used my acraglass kit for a while and only mixed for a minute or so instead of four so I'm going to let it sit till tomorrow afternoon before disassembling. The kit has to be 20 years old and I forgot to microwave the hardener for a few seconds to soften it up per brownells recommendation last time. Needless to say after an hour and a half the remainder of the mix could still be stirred. I read in the directions that using a heat lamp will speed up the drying process. I turned on my oven and sat it on top with the excess I didn't use. The heat from the oven comming out from the top of the range dried up and hardened my excess in about 10-15 minutes so I'm leaving the oven on at 170 degrees and have my rifle resting up side down next to the vent and flipping it from side to side every hour or less.

[sigep1764]

2 thousandths over bore is what I normally size to. If ya can, try the same loads with the bigger boolits. My 9mm ammo shrank by a good margin doing this, so I sized the 270 15 thousandths over and am in the process of getting the sizing die to do 2 thousandths to test.

[Tripplebeards]

2 thousandths over bore is what I normally size to. If ya can, try the same loads with the bigger boolits. My 9mm ammo shrank by a good margin doing this, so I sized the 270 15 thousandths over and am in the process of getting the sizing die to do 2 thousandths to test.

Great idea. I'm going to first retry my 23.8 gr load along with the 22.5 gr load that put two holes together and then threw the 3rd perfectly 3.5" horizontal to the left. If I want to resize I'll have to contact Lee to make me a .431 or .432 ...or sand and polish out a .430.

The more I read, the more I've been finding out the 77/44 is basically a 2moa rifle at best. I've read on some forums that every now and then someone will claim that the gun Shoots sub to MOA with words and normally after free floating the barrel and lightening up the trigger. I'm Hoping with my bedding job along with floating the barrel and lightening the trigger I'll beat the odds.

I pretty confident in my bedding and accurizing ability from past jobs I've done but don't want to jinx myself. I'm going to guess my trigger and bedding job will close my groups down to the point I won't have to go any further in my journey with this rifle. Fingers crossed.

[winelover]

RCBS three die set in grey box. Believe they're carbide.


They are either carbide or not. If not, you should be lubing your cases.

My original RCBS carbide sizer die is .002 inches smaller than the sizer in the Cowboy set. Same thing with the expander.

Do you see where I going with this?

The regular sizer is unnecessarily over working the brass, reducing case life. By squeezing the case down another .002"......... case neck tension is more conducive for undersize J-words, than over size cast bullets. This could also lead to inadvertent re-sizing your bullets, smaller, during the loading process. An undersized expander, exasperates this issue, also.

Lastly, neck sizing, will render cases that are a custom fit for your firearm. It doesn't get better than that, in terms of accuracy.


Winelover

[725]

For reasons that I'll never understand, SAAMI spec rifle barrels in .44 mag larger than revolver. I'd slug your rifle barrel and see what it's real size is. Then cast / size one or two thou over the barrel. I once had a Winchester trapper so large, I rebarreled it.

[Tripplebeards]

Just took my rifle apart. Using johnsons paste wax is the answer for a release agent. The screws came out loose and the action literally fell out of the stock. I would assume because I didnt put a ton of acraglass in it but just enough to make a dam around the front tang. The action actually slide in and out of the stock smooth now where before it wedged in and out. I would assume the johnsons paste wax is acting as a lube. i cleaned off all the wax, oiled, and reassembled. Im used to banging it out with my hand or a rubber mallot in rare instances. My old acraglass is still not hard and rubbery. Ill have to let it sit for a couple more days to a week and see if it hardens. Might throw it in my empty greenhouse tomorrow since it kicks alot of heat out. I set the stocked action in a sleeve on my trucks dash since its gotta be a 150 plus degrees in there to speed up the curing process. I call brownells tomorrow and get some advise on the slow curing process.

[Tripplebeards]

Brownels told me to give the acraglass a week to get to 90-95 % to dry and keep it in warm place. After that it will take a month to a month and a half for total hardness. The tech told me if his is over 10 years old it gets thrown out. Mine has to be around 15-18 years old. I was told it will still work but takes longer to cure being the chemical properties have broken down over the years.

I'll check it towards the end of the week and see if it's getting harder.

[GooseGestapo]

Bedding and trigger work will only go so far.
My experience with Rugers suggests that you’ll need to remove the barrel, face it down two threads, and recut the throat to get the accuracy you seek.

My 77/357 shot near MOA 5-shots with jacketed 158gr spts, but only 3.5-5” with cast. It had a short abrupt throat. Prices spiked on the 77/357’s so it found a new home.

[Tripplebeards]

I headed to the range to try out my bedding job. My first three shot group that I shot 2" at 100 yards using 23.8gr with w296 last week once again shot a 2" group so no changes after my bedding job and free floating the barrel. I then tried the 22.5 GR load with the same powder that I placed two shots together last week and the third shot 3.5" to the left. The first three shot group measured 2 1/4" and the second group with the same load shot just under 2.5". So my bedding and free floating helped this load. I'm going to try this rifle with a different optic. I have an old leupold vx11 3x9 that was given to me that is currently on this rifle. The ocular bell was loose and when I got it. I've tried to adjust it to get a clear focus picture at a 100 yards but it still stays a little fuzzy no matter how much to try. I'm going to throw on one of my Nikon 3.5x14 and retest. My guess is it's not going to get much,if any better but worth a try. I bought the rifle new and have about a 150-200 cast GC boolits through it but no j words. I'm going to buy a factory loaded box of jacketed ammo and try it. I wanted to see if it's capable of MOA with j words or if this is the best it gets.

[Tripplebeards]

I switched optics on it yesterday and I also lightened the trigger up even more. Had a 15 mph hour cross wind this morning but figured it would blow around a 270gr boolit. I tried four different loads and did get under MOA using 21gr of h110 and a boolit that is 7.5BH. Of course my brass is always trimmed to the same length but I didn't inform the primer pockets. Ill save that for another day and a target rifle.

21gr h110, 100 yards with a 7.5 bh boolit, the rest of the groups below were shot with 13.5 bh ...

https://i.imgur.com/VxP3fgB.jpg

23.8gr of W296, 100 yards...

https://i.imgur.com/FrVlEJF.jpg

22.5gr of h110, 100 yards...

https://i.imgur.com/QkvF7Ok.jpg

23.8gr of h110, 100 yards...

https://i.imgur.com/1QkBRJD.jpg

[Tripplebeards]

I forgot this target, was in the back seat. another 100 yd group with either 23.8gr of w296 or 22.5gr using h110. sorry don't remember. After i shot the .8' group i was too excited to pay attention to some of the larger groups.

https://i.imgur.com/NsoeTKz.jpg

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Looks good to me. You will run out of trajectory before you run out of accuracy, if that makes any sense!

[sniper]

Aim little, miss little!;-)