Paper patch bullets and silhouettes.

[flatsguide]

This past weekend I attended but did not compete at a sillohette match at the Roanoke Gun club. The event was run by Capt. Joe Davis, a most gracious host who patiently answered my numerous questions. I was able to use my spotting scope on the line and so much enjoyed the shoot that I plan on competing in the near future.
I think everyone there was using gg bullets but I want to use pp bullets. I already have a BACo 535 gn Elliptical, Jim 443530e pp mold that I’ll use to cast 1:16. And I’ll start working up a load that Brent recommended for .45-70 in my Browning BPCR 1885 knockoff.
My question is, what wiping technique do you pp shooters use under the time constraints of silhouette shooting? What I have gleaned so far is a Texas bore pig-pushed through the bore with a damp patch on the end of a Teflon rod followed by a dry patch. Would really appreciate hearing from the “been there done that” group.
Thanks, Richard

[Don McDowell]

I like the bore wipe system from Buffalo Arms, the felts are wet with napa oil and water mixed 1-7 and pushed thru the bore with a 2 1/2 dry flannel patch on the tip of a delrin wiping rod.

[flatsguide]

Thanks Don. I just ordered a bunch of stuff from Buffalo Arms yesterday....Maybe I can catch them when they open and get them included in the order. Thanks Richard

[Don McDowell]

Richard they are spendy to set up , but well worth it IMHO. Get two sets and a 250 ct. box of felts.
If you have your stuff organized in front of you so there's minimal hand movement (ie time used) it's faster than blow tubing, and certainly quicker than running multiple patches.
Brent has came up with a similar homemade system using the felts, nylon bore brushes and O rings bought at the local hardware store that works well also.

[BrentD]

Richard,
Push whatever bore critter you use with a DRY patch.

The key is to have everything laid out right so that you don't fumble around for a patch or a bore critter or whatever. Here is a video of me shooting in Raton. You can see that I'm not rushing and most of my time is debating the weather with my spotter. But the bore gets cleaned easily and quickly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH7RHS2QB5I
My preferred bore critters are homemade and I use a Paul Huard built Patch Popper to dispense my dry patches. I have modified it to hold cartridges and my clock - the clock part doesn't work so well, but the rest does. For silhouette however, only a single barrel is needed. The double barrel is meant to hold both wet and dry patches for long range. It sucks if the wind blows away your loose patches.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Woodworking/Patch%20Popper%202-barrel%20modified.JPG
Brent

[rfd]

+1 on using a good bore wiper AND a patch popper. one swipe of the delrin rod does it all and saves time best used for aiming.

222421

[BRUCE MOULDS]

brent's video says it all.
here in oz we sometimes need to blowtube at least 5 times.
given that you need to breathe in well, then exhale slowly, 5 times can take some time, and you can be left a little light headed at the end.
not a good position to be in to make a good shot.
then you have to shoot as soon as blowing is finished, or the moisture will disappear causing differing barrel conditions and vert.
a well set up wiper can maintain consistency of barrel much quicker than that, and then wait if necessary.
my own experience is with both texas bore pigs and baco wiping felts.
in 40 cal the wipers are harder to push than the pigs.
push them with a dry patch and it is 1 pass.
(not too fast a push dissolves stuff)
with greasers, a little fluid in the barrel might be advantageous to lubricate biore riding noses.
the thing i would add to brents process is to pull the dry patch back and push it out again, expelling the device at the same time.
where i shoot i do not want expelled patches blowing around the range in the wind, and have to grab the patches as they exit the muzzle.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Road_Clam]

Wow , I just love watching the master competition guys show their shooting skills (and neat tricks). That flimsy delrin rod is a great idea when prone. Thanks for posting the vids !

[flatsguide]

Hey guys thanks for the informative replies. Don, those guys at BACO are on the ball..my first order was already shipped out. I ordered what you suggested, two sets and extra felts.
Hi Brent, thanks for the video. It appears that wiping is as fast or faster than the blow tube once you get the routine down. Do you put the bore pigs in something like a Tupperware container that has the oil-water solution? When st the line? I already have the patch popper and a thousand patches that have a waffle pattern...I understand those patches were discontinued. Can the felts be rinsed and reused or are they a one shot deal? Brent, it appears from reading your comment that you use a different wiping strategy between silhouette and long range matches. Could you please elaborate on that please.
RFD nice looking storage setup for the wipers...like Don said...not a cheap date. Lol
Bruce, thanks...I think I would go cross-eyed if I had to huff and puff on a blow tube in a timed match.
Once again gents, thanks very much.
Regards, Richard

[BrentD]

Yes, wiping is at least as fast as blowing.

I put them in a Tupperware box with dihydrogen oxide, also known as hydrogen hydroxide, aka WATER. Plain old Water. From the tap. NO OIL.

Your patches will work fine. When they are gone buy ProShot 2" flannel patches and carry on.

Between relays, I put the gophers back in the box with the water and shake them a little, then they are ready to go again. At the end of the match, I rinse them several times and when I get home from a long trip of several days shooting, I put some Oxyclean in with my rinsing water and that cleans them well enough, so a couple more rinses with straight HOH is all that is needed. I have been using the same felts on my homemade gophers for a couple of years now.

In a silhouette match, bore critters and a dry patch are a must. In a "target" match, there is much more time, and I use 2 wet and 1 dry - normally. I used the gophers and patches two weeks back and things did not go well - AT ALL, but I don't really believe it was the wiping. I just don't know what happened.

If you are going to buy Texas bore pigs, I STRONGLY suggest getting them with nylon, not bronze, bristles. Also, it is best to make your own versions using bronze core nylon brushes that will not corrode like steel core brushes will.

[flatsguide]

Great Brent, thanks a lot.
Regards,, Richard

[BrentD]

Richard, what sort of flats do you guide on? Antelope flats? Bonefish flats? Just curious about your handle.

[flatsguide]

Hi Brent, I was a fly fishing flats guide in the Florida Keys for about the last twenty five years. The main quarry was Bonefish, Permit and Tarpon. Sharks too. Great sport!
Regards, Richard

[BrentD]

That's what I was guessing. Someday, Tarpon on a fly.... Someday....

[Don McDowell]

Richard I use one of the plastic air tight storage containers that have the rubber seal and snap tight lids to keep the wipers ready to go and another for the extra felts.
Collect the bore wipers and the used patches in a rubber horse feed pan placed at the end of the muzzle.
After each relay I take the used felts off , put them in another container, and replace with fresh felts. End of the day take the last set of wipers with the used felts rinse them in water and oxyclean. put the felts in their container and the wipers in theirs, and you're already for the next day.

[flatsguide]

Thanks Don...appreciate the tips very much.
Yeah, Tarpon on a fly, does not get much better. We generally use a 12 to 15 wt fly rod. When you hook a Tarpon it’s like hooking onto the back end of a Volkswagen going by at 30 mph. You can’t stop them. Initially, you need to keep up with them in the skiff then after their initial runs you can fight them from a dead boat for the most part. Brent, if you ever decide to try flats fishing let me know and I can get you set up with some top guides and the best time for Tarpon. Bucket list stuff for sure.
Tight lines, Richard

[Randy Bohannon]

Permit would be my quarry, 12-15 wt. fly rod ! wow ! big stuff for sure.

[indian joe]

brent's video says it all.
here in oz we sometimes need to blowtube at least 5 times.
given that you need to breathe in well, then exhale slowly, 5 times can take some time, and you can be left a little light headed at the end.
not a good position to be in to make a good shot.
then you have to shoot as soon as blowing is finished, or the moisture will disappear causing differing barrel conditions and vert.
a well set up wiper can maintain consistency of barrel much quicker than that, and then wait if necessary.
my own experience is with both texas bore pigs and baco wiping felts.
in 40 cal the wipers are harder to push than the pigs.
push them with a dry patch and it is 1 pass.
(not too fast a push dissolves stuff)
with greasers, a little fluid in the barrel might be advantageous to lubricate biore riding noses.
the thing i would add to brents process is to pull the dry patch back and push it out again, expelling the device at the same time.
where i shoot i do not want expelled patches blowing around the range in the wind, and have to grab the patches as they exit the muzzle.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce
interested in your blow tube comments ---I shot this afternoon, just load testing for my sharps, not happy with my shooting for most of it, afternoon sun a bit glary and not seeing the sights as well as usual (usual is not all that crash hot these days anyhow :D) getting more vertical than horizontal today ? most times is other way. I finished with five of the CBE 460-535PB - just fit em on an A4 sheet at 500 yards, so 10.5 vertical x 7.5 horizontal - two nice pairs in it though one 2" and another 3" ..........one long slow with the blowtube between each shot and I reckon I over did it by heaps - one part the chamber was wet from the blowing - came back to the house and my barometer says a touch over 80% humidity - I got caught doing the same at Hill End two years ago - dead calm, humid, with the LEE boolit and my string walked down the target till I stopped the blow at about number nine (of my 12 shots). Have not shot the sharps since this last Easter and nothing missed the board so I spose not so bad.
When you saying you needed 5 with the blow tube ? was that a grease boolit or paper patch ? I have only ever done one blow each shot with the grease boolits in dry hot weather and the 1876 only takes one each break (I normally shoot five then a break/ blow then shoot another five) - thats those LEE boolits with a lot of lube on em though.
Just wonderin if I misinterpreted something here - jeez I would be puffed too doin five big breaths between shots - same effect as running back from pinning up yr target.

[Don McDowell]

You can't just blow thru a blow tube,, that's using it for a pacifier. For blow tubing to work properly, the shooter has to be well hydrated, and the breath has to come from deep in the lungs to put as much moisture as possible in the bore.
Much quicker and better for accuracy to use the patch popper set up and push one or two damp patch behind a greaser.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Don McDowell;4394479]You can't just blow thru a blow tube,, that's using it for a pacifier. For blow tubing to work properly, the shooter has to be well hydrated, and the breath has to come from deep in the lungs to put as much moisture as possible in the bore.

Don ....What you say was why I was kinda querying Bruce on that five breaths - I reckon if I did that there would be rain comin out the end of my barrel - but I dont know exactly where he lives and /or where he shoots most
Ya talkin to an alternative health nut here - hydration and deep breathing I do know a bit about

[country gent]

A lot have a water bottle beside them and take drink every few shots to help keep moisture up. Another thing this may help with is one of the first things affected by dehydration is eye sight a swig every few shots may keep vision sharper also

[flatsguide]

“...keep vision sharper also“. Good breathing technique too.
Richard

[flatsguide]

Randy, Permit are the most elusive, a good 10 wgt works well. I’d better get back on track.
Richard

[Road_Clam]

So for idiots like me what exactly is a "bore critter" ? Thanks !

[BrentD]

Road_Clam,
They are some form of an integrated bore wiping tool. Trade names like Texas Bore Pigs, Bore Weasels, Bore Gophers, Bore Wipes (not very original there, BACO), and others have been created by people that get this job done. All of them are variations on the Fisher Brush system from the late 1800s.

Most of the incorporate some sort of scrubbing ability that carries wiping fluid (water or an black elixir) and something that acts as a squeegee on the back end to remove most/all of the fluid and fouling.

This is one of recent reinventions, the Texas Bore Pig
http://shootingbums.org/TexasBorePigs/images/BorePig.jpg

And here is a Bore Gopher - my own design
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Bore%20Gophers%202.0.jpg

The phylogenetics of these critters is a little confused, but we don't worry too much about that.

[Don McDowell]

Brent what do you use for those washers

[BrentD]

They are 1/2" OD x 3/16" ID x 1/16" neoprene from Ace Hardware. I add the source because I have bought the same washers from a machine supply shop for MUCH less money but they lasted less than one season. Though they were cheaper, the Ace Hardware versions have outlasted them by a couple of years.

A friend sent me some smaller ones for a .40 cal. They were from WalMart of all places but the rubber looks real good, and they have nice sharp edges that should make good squeegees. Also there are website suppliers (names I do not know) that specialize in various forms of rubber washers for different purposes and materials. Some of them might be much better than what I have, but what I have works pretty well, so I haven't really explored.

[Don McDowell]

Thanks for the info, might try to work some up, I like that brush in the middle. Tried t make some a while back but the stuff I used for washers didn’t work wort a hoot

[flatsguide]

I bought some VFG bore critters from BACo (man, do they get stuff to you quick) below is a quote regarding flexible cleaning rods that was on the BACO site regarding the VFG crittersI see a lot of guys using these flexible rods. In Brent’s video of using critters in the prone position, I don’t think he was using a bore guide of any sort, such as a opened cartridge case...

“3.Allows the use of a rigid cleaning rod in some rifle so you can quit prematurely wearing out your barrel when using a flexible cleaning rod.”
Regards, Richard

[BrentD]

If you are going to make up some bore critters with brushes, I recommend these
https://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/brushes-amp-bore-snakes/bore-brushes/dozen-pack-nylon-rifle-brushes-prod40083.aspx

They have bronze cores and won't rust out like steel cores do.

Richard, no, I don't use a bore guide. I don't know anyone who does on the firing line. I don't think a drilled firing case would suffice anyway, if using a delrin rod.

[Keith]

Mine are like Brents but I leave out the rubber washer wiper. The front felt and brush are wet in the ammo box of water, and I leave the back felt dry. Push through with a dry patch concentrating on the chamber. Bit more work but still experimenting.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/866/40303809335_e4a89d4966_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24pvymp). (https://flic.kr/p/24pvymp) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/

[flatsguide]

That looks like it will work Keith, and a lot less $$$$$ than I paid.
Regards, Richard
Edit...are you trimming the hair off the brush and pushing the felt of the twisted part?

[Keith]

That looks like it will work Keith, and a lot less $$$$$ than I paid.
Regards, Richard
Edit...are you trimming the hair off the brush and pushing the felt of the twisted part?

Yes, I just rotate the end against the bench grinder to remove a few bristles.
These are a bit more work than Brents as he just gives his a rinse and a shake and can reuse. Mine, I have to undo the nut and replace the felt with a dry one each time but I bought heaps of them so its OK. I wash and dry them later.
I couldnt find decent washers to use that wiped well and had the right size hole. If I could I would give Brents a go again for simplicity.

[flatsguide]

Thanks for that info Keith.
Regards, Richard

[Lead pot]

I haven't used any of these bore critters yet but I might try them. Being a Plumber by trade that has used a lot of bib washers and O-rings of all kind I think a leather bib washer might be more effective then a neoprene for the trailing dry wiper they would work more like a squeegee
and they can be made from old leather belts by just punching them out with a press mounted wad cutter.

[Edward]

Mine are like Brents but I leave out the rubber washer wiper. The front felt and brush are wet in the ammo box of water, and I leave the back felt dry. Push through with a dry patch concentrating on the chamber. Bit more work but still experimenting.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/866/40303809335_e4a89d4966_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24pvymp). (https://flic.kr/p/24pvymp) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/ What your showing I"ve been using for 3-4 months ,made 50 for $70.00 and they work great ,followed by a dry patch they speed up wiping and leaving a consistent a bore condition !/Ed

[ian45662]

I personally LOVE brents Gophers. I have the baco wipers also. I have been trying to get them to work as well as brents design but for whatever reason brents wipers seem to do a little better for me. Maybe its the brushing action. When I first started using them the local ace hardware didnt have enough washers for me to build 15 or so wipers so I went to the lowes that was 20 min from the house and tried those. BIG mistake. My experience mirrors Brents in that the washers from ace are the only ones suitable for the task at hand.

[AzTBH]

They are 1/2" OD x 3/16" ID x 1/16" neoprene from Ace Hardware. I add the source because I have bought the same washers from a machine supply shop for MUCH less money but they lasted less than one season. Though they were cheaper, the Ace Hardware versions have outlasted them by a couple of years.

A friend sent me some smaller ones for a .40 cal. They were from WalMart of all places but the rubber looks real good, and they have nice sharp edges that should make good squeegees. Also there are website suppliers (names I do not know) that specialize in various forms of rubber washers for different purposes and materials. Some of them might be much better than what I have, but what I have works pretty well, so I haven't really explored.

Brent, What diameter are the .40 caliber washers? Thanks Ross

[Don McDowell]

The squeegy from the BACO system will thread easily on an 8x32 threaded bore brush.

[AzTBH]

Thanks for the suggestion Don. I was in the process of ordering Arsenal Patches from Buffalo Arms, so I added a few of the "Bore Wiper Cleaning System Squeegees.” to the list. The length, however, of the squeegee looks like it will prevent the use of the felt wad on the back end of brush. I like making stuff and the “Fuller Brush" concept works for several shooters, so I still plan on assembling a bunch of Brent’s Bore Gophers. Although the squeegees will surely work, using washers is less expensive than purchasing squeegees @ 1.75 ea. If I cannot find any suitible washers at the local hardware store, I’ll try cutting some out of suitable material with a .40 caliber Cornell Wad Punch.

[rfd]

i have, and use, 50 of the BACO bore wipers for nearly 2 years, i like 'em, they're darned good. observing a friend using brent's gophers this past friday, i'd hafta say the gophers would be better yet - for me.

[Don McDowell]

Az, I’m not sure that a second felt on a 40 cal brush would be necessary when using the squeegee, so long as you used a flannel patch.
Most of the time using the baco system one felt has been plenty.

[flatsguide]

Hi Guys,
As you may recall, I participated in my first silhouette match using less than stellar ammunition and shot accordingly.
The problem was gas cutting from failed .060 veggie wad. Going to a .065 LDPE wad solved that problem and I am getting consistent 1 3/8 groups with a few 11/4 groups thrown in. .45-70, 80gns 11/2 Swiss no compression, BACo elliptical 525 gn.PP 16:1 ccibr2. Used that load to place 3rd in Sunday’s match. Needless to say I was pretty surprised and happy, and made for a nice 80th birthday present.
The rifle I’m using is a Browning BPCR with a DZ Arms 8x scope. I would like to further increase the accuracy and try to get the groups down in the 1MOA territory. Is that a realistic goal? I really don’t know where to start.
Maybe going up to 81 to 82 gns and the same seating depth of .125” or trying a over primer wad. I want to stay with the Swiss powder and CCI primers as I have 20 lbs of the same lot and a case of the CCI primers. What, in your opinion gives the biggest change in group size in descending order.
Thanks guys Richard

[Don McDowell]

Finding the sweet spot load, and a good fouling control routine you should be able to shrink groups to a sub 2 moa.
After that it's a matter of breaking every shot clean, and a good spotter who's head is in the game.

[country gent]

To gain that last bit you want may not be one change but several things done. As the groups get smaller improvement gains do too. If your not already doing it some brass uniforming may help a little. cut primer pockets flat and uniform deburr flash holes inside of case. Trim to a uniform length and square. Seat primers to load the pellet uniformly. Maybe try thin primer wad between primer and case head this helps keep powder fines out of the primer, improving ignition.

Even with Iron sights test at the longest distance possible. This may help refine a load and show issues better than up closer.

As to primers I have been getting good results with the last case of Remington 9 1/2s in the BP rounds.

[Bent Ramrod]

Imprimis: An absolutely clean, absolutely dry bore. No matter your cleaning routine, it should look unfired before you load the rifle again. You may get away with a little remaining grunge in the bore after wiping, but then again, you may not. If there’s time, wipe and dry again.

Item: Lead BHN 8-11. Less gives me flyers around a core group, more gives nothing but flyers. This may change in importance, depending on the design of your boolit; mine are Creedmoor, Original Postells, etc.; conventional designs, and no Money boolits or other exotica tried yet.

Item: I patch dry and store the patched boolits in those plastic box liners that pistol ammunition comes in. The paper takes a set, so when they are loaded, at most a little tightening of the wrap is necessary. I leave the center of the base bare. For me, wet patching ensured the patches sticking to the boolit; likewise twisting the bottom of the patch beneath the base.

Item: The right charge of the right brand and granulation of powder. This simply has to be found, for the given rifle, and like gold, it’s where you find it. I’ve found loads with grease groove boolits that work fine in multiple rifles, but for paper patch, each rifle seems to be a law unto itself. I’ve had dismal results with powders for which other shooters scour the country for remaining stocks, and fantastic shooting from combinations nobody else seems to bother with.

One thing that usually seems to improve the shooting is adding more powder vs. making up volume with a wad stack, but sometimes I can get a good load with more wads than usual, so this isn’t an absolute rule. I measure my powder with an Ideal #5, drop it onto a scale pan, and if the charge is what I want + or- 0.5 gr, it gets trickled into the case through the drop tube.

Item: Watch case lengths and trim whenever necessary. I notice that my successful load combinations will start throwing the occasional low one in a match. Prior to loading this batch of shells, I had measured a random sample of the shells and found nothing amiss, and then happily loaded them. After the match and its none-too-edifying score, I measured all of the cases after tumbling and found that there were a few with slight lengthening or uneven case mouths, found at about the same frequency as the dirt diggers I’d fired in the match.

Some people never experience this problem. But the evidence for me is that the slugged up patched boolit grabs the end of the case pretty tightly before it starts to move forward, and if there is any moisture from the bore wiping left between chamber and case wall, it will act as a drawing lubricant on the case, allowing it to be dragged forward into the leade in extreme cases and slightly lengthening the mouths and making them uneven in the more routine cases. Paper patch guys don’t follow the Lyman handbook trim-to-lengths, where you chop them well back so as to never have to bother again; paper patch shell lengths are typically right up to the chamber ends, so naturally, any overage is going to be detrimental.

A grease cookie seems to alleviate this problem, doubtless by lowering the friction between paper and cartridge case. My shooting partner has a .40-70SS, fires nothing but paper patch, and wipes one wet patch, one dry, and a bore mop on a short handle to swab the chamber and leade. Accuracy left something to be desired, but his Buffalo Arms modified Krag shells endured many loadings with only the kind of neck splits and other attrition that such drastically reshaped brass is prone to. He switched to Jamison brass and got even better service out of these. Then he decided to drop the grease cookie, using the same wiping routine. His score went up significantly, beating me handily, but the cases were occasionally stretched so far that the rifling was visible at the front and a tear and near separation occurred in the body. I told him he ought to get some bore pigs, but he may go back to grease cookies, as the Jamison cases are now unavailable. I seem to recall that Kenny Wasserberger was going to try rubbing graphite on the paper after patching the boolits like Frank Mayer said he did, but I can’t find a report of how this worked. I’m going to try my patented mixture of one can Imperial graphite to one can Midway Mica that I use for case neck lube next time I load. But however you do it, keep those case lengths from growing.

Item: These may be voodoo, but I use primer wads and anneal the cases before every loading. I always seem to get slightly better accuracy when I do so, so I do it. I’d love to be able to avoid these nuances, but I always seem to do worse when I do.

Item: Diameter of boolits, within reason, doesn’t seem to matter as much as the above considerations. I’ve had good results with .45 caliber moulds that cast from 0.440” to 0.443” with weights from 525 to 545 gr, patched with paper of thickness 0.0015” to 0.002”, as long as it’s the crackly kind, like graph, erasible bond, or tracing paper. I don’t look for rag content. Some of these boolits go into the chamber with no resistance at all; when I have to use my lever seater, the groups open up. Even my “loose” fits won’t go into a fired, uncleaned barrel though, so even my “undersize” boolits are pretty close. I’ve never tried a two-diameter or tapered boolit, and probably won’t.

Item: Within limits, seating depth also doesn’t seem to be all that critical. I’ve had equally good results with seating depths from 1/8” to 1/4” with the same boolits over the same charges of Swiss powder. I’m using 1/8” as a standard now because my latest batch of Swiss 1Fg is less dense than the previous lot, I need the room in the case, and Swiss doesn’t necessarily need compression. I’m using fractions deliberately here; I once measured the depth of the wads on 50 cases I’d seated to 0.130” and allowed to sit over lunch, and found that though a few had stayed at this depth, many had more or less pushed back to levels somewhat less. I could have run them through the compression die again, but I capped them with boolits and they all seemed to shoot well. So a thousandth, or even a 64th, difference in actual compression, doesn’t seem to affect things after the compression die is set.

Item: Primer brand and type doesn’t seem to matter much in my rifles. I use Federal GMM Large Pistol because “Match” sounds good and I can punch the primer wad as I seat the primer to the proper depth, rather than using a longer rifle primer and fiddling around with newspaper circles trying to get them to the bottom of the case without turning vertical and sticking to the case wall. Likewise, full-length sizing vs neck sizing vs no sizing; they all work but the latter allows the boolits to drop out,and I don’t see “zero neck tension” as worth this hassle. I made a shell mouth reducer die so that most of the cartridges can be picked out of the box and loaded. This doesn’t seem to affect my shooting adversely.

Item: I weigh all my boolits before patching into groups of 1.0 grain, and shoot these together, if possible. If I run out of a given weight, adding the next increment (or even the next) up or down doesn’t seem to change the shooting significantly. 950 yards is as far as I’ve shot in competition; mostly I’m a “mid-range” shooter, so this may mean something if I ever try a long range target. In the meantime, as long as I remove the odd light or unaccountably heavy castings from the batch, the rest of them seem to shoot OK.

And, finally, Item, brand and weight of cases makes no difference whatsoever. Neither does lead to tin (and other) ratio, as long as the mixture is between BHN 8 and 11. Nor does BHN 8 shoot better than BHN 11, or BHN 8.6 better than BHN 8.7. Nor does the direction of patch wrapping. Nor does having every patch made to a template, one at a time. I cut strips, clip them together in a stack of five, and cut the stacks on a bias. If some are a trifle longer than others, the extra length is just folded further around the base, leaving a slightly smaller open space.

So far, my paper patch experience is one rifle with complete satisfaction, two with promising results and one that doesn’t seem to like them at all, so far at least. There’s a few more in the queue that I have t gotten to yet.

[rfd]

BR, thank you for your post. what kind of chambers are in yer rifles?

[ian45662]

Try federal large pistol match primers. My rifle loves them. Your might also


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[Distant Thunder]

I use Remington 2 1/2 LP primes in both my .45-70 and my .40-65. They seem to work well for me in both, but other rifles may prefer different primers apparently so do what I did, try all the primers you can get your hands on and go with whatever your rifle likes best. I still need to try some BR2 primers, but there's no hurry.

DT

[Bent Ramrod]

Ive used a lot of different primers, including FA70 corrosives. No quantum leap in acccuracy one from the other that I’ve found. No Magnum primers or drilled out flash holes, although I think I may have deburred and uniformed the primer pockets on some of the shells long ago. I use Federal GMM Large Pistol primers now, but occasionally use BR2s. Pistol primers allow for the thickness of the primer wad in the bottom of the primer pocket, and the primers seat flush. I use strips of ASSRA target paper for the primer wads.

The #3 Shiloh had the chamber deepened slightly when it was rebarreled with a barrel off another Shiloh. No idea who did it or what it looks like; it handles grease groove loads fine. The .44-77 Montana Rough Rider has the regular Shiloh chamber, as does my #1 Shiloh .45-70, that I still use for grease groove boolits.

The .44-77 seems to be coming along with paper patch boolits. It will stay on the Rams, off the bench. The limiting factor is the lightness of the barrel; it’s a little harder to manage than the standard heavy and heavy half barrel jobs. I haven’t done any development on the #1 beyond firing a few #3 loads in it, with unspectacular results.

When I mentioned the length of the patch, I guess I meant the width. The ends, of course, have to abut each other, or come slightly short. Extra width means a slight difference in the size of the bare lead circle on the boolit base. I make sure they go the same distance up the boolit’s shank.

[flatsguide]

Thanks guys and thank you Bent Ramrod for your time and well written explanation.
My apologies for not going into more detail on my loading technique so hear goes...
Cases:
.45-70 Starline brass all from the same batch. All cases annealed, stretched and trimmed to .005” shorter than the stock Browning/Badger chamber. Primer pockets uniformed to depth and inside flash hole debured. Flash holes were not drilled. Case mouths chamfered. Cases were fireformed, 2nd annealing and sorted by weight.
Bullet:
Bullets are BACO JIM443530E, cast 16:1 for a weight of 525 gns. Patch paper was a hard paper that brought the overall bullet diameter to .450, a snug finger pressure fit in the bore. Wrapped to about .005 past the straight section of the bullet. Dry wrapped.
Powder:
80 gns Swiss. All charges weighed. For the life of me I could not get consistent powder column night in the case even using a 30 inch tube and trickling in the powder. I finally used a method that is time consuming but the results are not too bad. A case with a CCI br2 primer is placed on a etching pencil vibrator and the eighty grans of Powder poured into a case funnel that fits over the case after the powder is poured a small square of index file paper is dropped on top of the powder column and a vernier digital caliper is used along with the vibrator get the proper powder column height, yeah ,I know apita. Next a .065 LDPE wad and a freezer paper wad, shiny side to bullet base is placed in the case and a Meachum neck sizing die size the neck down .125 inches which is the bullet seating depth. It gives me .0016 bullet tension. The patched bullet is hand seated in the case and then seated to depth with a Redding precision seating die.
Shooting:
I wipe with BACO VFG bore pig with water and a dry patch. I push everything at once with a Delrin rod. Bore is clean and dry for every shot.
Like I said I would shure like to get consistent 1MOA . Right now get 11/4 to 13/8 at 100 yds.
Thanks guys
Regards, Richard

[dave roelle]

Bent provided the most straight forward set of observations i have seen yet !!!!

It paralells my experience ,which is not quite as broad as others here, however i have shop PP 45-70 to the mid twenties on silhouettes

The only thing i add is a wax and final size after dry wrapping, this sets the fold over,and irons the patch slick and protects against the tropical humidity here on the gulf coast

Have FUN flats guide

Dave

[Don McDowell]

Richard if you're achieving that tight of groups on your home range already, I would suggest a little less time chasing the measuring string and a bit more on shooting in wind and mirage on silhouette targets. And it's helpful to replicate match conditions as best you can, ie set the timer shoot your practice target just the way you would have to in a match.

[Distant Thunder]

Having just finished my 2018 season of silhouette matches and my first year of silhouette with paper patched bullets (Aug. 2017 to Aug.2018) the following is my loading procedure.

My silhouette rifle is a C. Sharps 1875 rebarreled to .40-65 some years back. The chamber has a loooong freebore, .400"+. So I use a custom designed and made mold to cast my 2-diameter bullets. The groove diameter section is .525" long and it weighs 382 grains. I cast these from various alloys to 11 BHN. OAL is 1.250".

I first inspect my fired and cleaned brass. I do check the length on occasion, but I have little if any case stretching, case length is 2.140-2.145". I do not size my brass. I have never annealed my brass, ever.

I primed all cases with Remington 2 1/2 large pistol primers, no over the primer wads are used.

I weight the 72.0 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss as I dump them using my very old Pacific powder measurer. I keep the loads pretty much at zero to + 1/2 grain.

The powder is trickled into the cases thru my 14" drop tube, takes about 2-3 seconds. I then seat the .060" LDPE wad with my thumb to start it in the case mouth. I place the case in my compression die and compress to .075" deep. My bullets are seated very shallow. There is not much compression.

All my cases are loaded this way and set aside and then I wrap and seat my bullets as follows.

Each bullet is dry wrapped with 9 lb. 100% cotton onion skin just before it is seated in the case.

I run each bullet thru my .409" (freebore diameter) size die which just smooths out the groove diameter and presses the fold over flat against the base. The case with the finger seated bullet is run up into a tapered neck sizing die to just hold the bullet in the case for handling and chambering. The bullets are snug in the cases before I run them into the taper die but doing so just adds a little insurance for handling.

Each round is put into my ammo box and I go to the next one.


I ended last year shooting this load for the first time as a AA shooter. In the five 40-shot matches I have with it shot my scores were, 26, 32, 31, 30, 28. So I have moved to AAA with my first of two master class score early this year. A couple weeks ago I attempted to get my 3rd master class score but was not able to hit enough chickens. Did I ever mention how much I hate chickens!

I pretty sure I have some time remaining in which I must shoot my 3rd score to make master class, but it will have to wait until 2019.


For what it's worth I load my long range ammo for my .45-70 Hepburn using the same proceed with the only real difference being the caliber. That load in my rifle has won many long range matches for me and a few NRA Regionals. I am pretty happy with the accuracy this loading procedure is producing in both my rifles/calibers. The mold I use for my .45-70 is also custom designed for my rifle and it's application. I believe strongly in fitting the bullet to the specific chamber and keeping the loading procedure simple. My .45-70 has a paper patched chamber and the bullets are patched to bore diameter. I'll be shooting my last long range match of the year in a week and a half and I know the load will perform well. It's been a good year.

DT

[dave roelle]

Nice shooting DT. Im a AAA shooter, using GG reciently in 40-65

Carefull about that "Master" thing its almost irrevocable ��

Time to start wrapping again and claim AAA with PP ��

Don's dead on. Spotter. Spotter. Spotter and honed shooting form will take you across the finish line

Stay safe

Dave

[ian45662]

I got lucky and shot a master score on my first outing with my scope. The very next week though I struggled. Missed 5 of the lay downs on both days in Alma.


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[flatsguide]

Don, you are right about practicing, but I guess for the most part we are guilty about trying to milk that last bit of accuracy from our rifles. I’m going to take your advice though.
DT, My wife is a physical therapist and she is putting a program together for me to practice offhand shooting. I have a really bad back so she is trying to improve my core strength. In my first match I shot a score of 2, on my second match a score of 27. The only difference was going from a veggie wad to a LDPE wad. The ringing from a hit is nice music. My rifle is muzzle heavy and is difficult to hold in the offhand position. It seems with the little bit of experience that I have , chickens are the bane of good scores. I wonder if a rifle built more for offhand shooting, a shorter barrel and a smaller caliber would be the better way to go. I shoot with a DZ Arms scope so I would not need the benefit of a longer sight radius that iron sight shooters benefit from. Maybe in the 9 pound range.
Nice shooting DT
Regards, Richard

[flatsguide]

Ian, that can be frustrating but congrats on the Master shooting.
Regards, Richard

[Don McDowell]

Richard, your browning is just fine for offhand shooting. I don't know if you wrestled in school or not but a lot of the excerises we did to build arm and neck muscles for wrestling are also good for building upper body strength for offhand. Another thing you can do at home is work on your stance in the house. Take the rifle out once a day and work on your stance, find a comfortable stance and hold on the rifle, then hold it up aiming at something on the wall down the hall etc. Doing that just a few minutes a day will tone your muscle's and let you experiment with rifle position. Pretty quick 2+ chickens will come along in a match.

[Distant Thunder]

Richard, there's no flies on a 27! Good shooting.

For years I had been shooting silhouette with my C. Sharps 1874 in .45-70 with iron sights because I believe the .45 gave me an advantage. With that rifle and shooting grease bullets I did ok, but I never came close to a 30, much less a mater class score. I was struggling to see the targets and shooting a rifle that made my not so good offhand shooting worse. Hoping to improve my scores I put a score on my .45-70, but I just didn't like it. I went back to irons and scores in the mid 20s.

Then I got away from silhouette for about 4 years and a friend asked me to come back to the game. I didn't feel I was going to improve my scores with the .45 so I resurrected my old .40-65 and began a search for the right boolit. I gave paper patched a try because this rifle has always shown a liking for paper and I came up with my ppb that shoots very well. For load development I put my scope on my .40-65 and fell in love. The scope may come off on occasion but it will be rare.

Then in May this year I shot those two just barely master scores and I am absolutely sold on this rifle for silhouette. Paper pathed bullets helps but another thing is I shoot this rifle better offhand than any other bpcr I own. The weight and balance are just better for me offhand. I now think there is an advantage to a smaller caliber (.40) and a lighter rifle both of which result in a more shootable rifle. YMMV

As for using ppb for silhouette I don't see any disadvantage and I prefer ppb so why not. I did have the help of Brent Danielson to get a workable system. That and I have been shooting ppb in long range for the past nine years, but silhouette is a bit different. In silhouette you have to be organized because of the time limits, that's where I have a hard time. With a little practice even I can appear organized enough to do fairly well.

I got lucky in May and shot those two master scores and I may not make master class with a 3rd, but I have to try even if I never or rarely shoot master scores again. I enjoy shooting silhouette a lot and I always try to shoot the best I can on any given day, it's just that some days my best isn't all that good, but those days when everything clicks make it all worth the effort.

DT

[ian45662]

It was good to meet you Jim. You have got that 40 singing with those paper patch bullets. By rights you shoulda shot a master score on Saturday. To further drive your point home Jim I have never shot a master score with grease groove ammo. My rifle even with its standard Sami spec chamber seems to prefer the bore diameter PP loads. My best scores have consistently come from my paper patch loads. Flatsguide Jim is right. 27 is a good score. You are doing very good.


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[Distant Thunder]

I was glad to meet you too, Ian. It's always nice to be able to put a face with the name and more so to get to talk some with you about my favorite subject, paper patched bullets.

Your doing well with load paper patching and it will only get better because you'll continue to work at it. Things have to be working pretty darn well to shoot master class scores and more than a couple times to make it into master class. Well done.

I just need to work on my offhand, definitely my weakness. I just plain and simple need to hit more chickens and I know that. On Saturday I missed a pig! and that cost me my 3rd score. I have no idea what happened. My count is up on the turkeys and the rams with ppb over what I ever had with gg.

I don't think good, as in match winning, paper patch loads just happen, but I do believe there are some very basic rules to follow to improve the chances for success. At least that's the way it's been for me. I got lucky with my .45-90 Shiloh in that when I made the switch from greasers that rifle took to ppb like a duck to water and as I learned it only got better.


I have done some pretty good shooting with grease groove bullets in the past, but nothing nearly as good as what paper patched has done for me. I believe they are superior to grease groove once mastered and that is especially true at long range. More important than that is the cool factor and nothing beats paper patched bullets in that area, everyone notices when you win a match with paper patched!

DT