Do modern Gunsmiths really 'smith, or, do they just 'assemble AR's'

[kens]

You tell me,
I don't want to be a negative person.
I asked a 'gunsmith' how much to drill/tap for a Unertl scope blocks.
He got that 'deer in headlights' look.
He asked what kind of gun (does it matter) for drill/tap?
He asked to see the project (it is a octagon barrel)
He asked if it was a lever action or something (it a STRAIGHT octagon, the simplest of all)
OMG!!!! it is a muzzle loader with a STRAIGHT octagon barrel, and all I want is drill/tap for scope blocks.
OMG !! a straight octagon barrel that is FLAT on all sides, and NO taper,,,,,and this guy is asking me questions......
Do these modern 'gunsmiths' really 'smith' any thing or do they merely 'assemble AR's' ????

[pietro]

.

IME, there are real gunsmiths, and parts-changers that call themselves gunsmiths - and I hope to never meet the latter again.

.

[lefty o]

like any other trade, they run the gambit. honestly, id rather have the guy asking questions about the project, instead of just saying yes whether or not he can handle the job.

[mcdaniel.mac]

like any other trade, they run the gambit. honestly, id rather have the guy asking questions about the project, instead of just saying yes whether or not he can handle the job.Agreed. I had a "gunsmith" say he could fit a HiPower barrel. Big mistake. I got back a pile of parts, a missing slide release, and a note that said sorry. The next time I needed a smith I looked for someone who manufactured actions, fitted parts for custom guns, and could show me an example of what I wanted.

[OS OK]

You tell me,
I don't want to be a negative person.
I asked a 'gunsmith' how much to drill/tap for a Unertl scope blocks.
He got that 'deer in headlights' look.
He asked what kind of gun (does it matter) for drill/tap?
He asked to see the project (it is a octagon barrel)
He asked if it was a lever action or something (it a STRAIGHT octagon, the simplest of all)
OMG!!!! it is a muzzle loader with a STRAIGHT octagon barrel, and all I want is drill/tap for scope blocks.
OMG !! a straight octagon barrel that is FLAT on all sides, and NO taper,,,,,and this guy is asking me questions......
Do these modern 'gunsmiths' really 'smith' any thing or do they merely 'assemble AR's' ????

Do you have any idea of how many 'Bubba's' come in asking how to do something...you then ask a short question and don't give the particulars, heck it coulda been a tank barrel for all the smith knew. So then, now your upset because he couldn't read your mind? C-mon...think about it...

As far as he was concerned you were 'Bubba on a mission'...the guy took interest enough to try to help you out....hmmmmm...what's the world coming to?

[Shawlerbrook]

Agree with all the above. I know some true artists and some shade tree mechanics.

[Nobade]

I specialize in bolt action rifles, and can do just about anything to one you might like. And I don't allow AR types or others like that in the shop. I just don't want to deal with the typical type of person who owns them. So no, not all 'smiths are parts changers. But a whole lot are.

[nagantguy]

From bubba to armorer to ‘Smith to artist.

[leebuilder]

I am no gunsmith, got no paper that says certified. I am a machinist and marine engineer and enjoy what I do. I have learned alot about peaple since I opened my doors to peaple. I find I can make the "unobtainable" part and fix milsurps something alot of gunsmith won't touch. I assemble mall ninja sks type rifles, I don't realy like it but to most ninja types it's a first rifle and a smile they have when it's done is worth it. There are alot of uneducated folk that assume miracles happen alot, they don't and when they do happen it won't be free. The price is the price, non negotiatable. Or its free and you have to leave in under a minute and you and your friends can't come back ever.
The trick is never take on a job you can't do.
Keep your mouth shut.
If a customer refers to the interweb they are asked to leave.
If they bring their wife and she is calling the shots, both are banished.
Assembling parts into a rifle be it an AR or target 22 takes skill and time all are worth something.

Be safe

[roverboy]

The title cracked me up because, a lot just assemble AR's. I think some don't even realize there's other rifles besides AR's.

[sparky45]

Can't add much to the conversation, but I found (4) Gunsmith's in my area that have done work for me and the work has been better than satisfactory. One completely prepped a M12 Winchester for re-bluing (exceptional work); one fit a H&R Handi barrel (great job); one fixed a ejector on a Stevens 410 (very good job) and recently I shipped another Handi rifle out of state to a gentleman in Arkansas (member here) that re-bored the barrel for a different caliber (exceptional work). Gunsmith's are out there and I'm glad I've been able to locate some of them.

[dragon813gt]

Like all professions people specialize. Wether people want to admit or not there’s a huge market for AR rifles. It makes sense for someone to specialize in them. The ones by me advertise what work they perform. There are very few actual gunsmiths. The vast majority work on ARs and Glocks. It is what it is. There are lots of good smiths around if you don’t mind shipping your guns to them. This is the route I choose anymore. I’d rather send it someone that I know will do the job correctly rather than take a chance on a local guy.

[OS OK]

Say what you like about 'AR smith assemblers' but this smith had to have a Dr's degree in tactical engineering to do this! :bigsmyl2:

https://i.imgur.com/ATctVkF.jpg

[pietro]

Say what you like about 'AR smith assemblers' but this smith had to have a Dr's degree in tactical engineering to do this! :bigsmyl2:

https://i.imgur.com/ATctVkF.jpg


Nah - he just hadda be nuts...………………

.

[Tatume]

… He got that 'deer in headlights' look. He asked what kind of gun (does it matter) for drill/tap?

Sometimes it does matter. If the steel is hardened, like some receiver rings, then it must be spot annealed before drilling. That costs extra, and I'd only want someone who knows the job and has done it before.

[sharps4590]

As with every occupation that exists, there is poor, mediocre, good and excellent. My local gunsmith is a wizard with metal and machine tools. Stock repairs he will undertake but only IF he's confident he can do them satisfactorily. He's turned me down on a few stock problems but never with anything to do with the action, barrel or trigger of anything. He has a passion for metalwork but not woodwork. Best thing is he's dead honest about his likes and dislikes, strengths and weaknesses and, what he's good at and what he isn't so good at. How can a customer ask for more than that?

[country gent]

I would bet there are now gunsmiths out there that have never drilled and tapped for a external adjustment scope. Theres a lot more involved is this job than just drilling tapping 4 holes on location. barrel wall thickness / contour. some of the newer light weight barrels 7-8" from the action may be to thin walled for threads. some contours may create the need for special blocks to get a zero. while most barrels arnt hard, there have been some made from very tough materials that are harder to work with.
You then run into the equipment machines he has issue. The better have accurate machines that can be used with enough travel to do the job in one set up. Some have very small light weight equipment that may require moving the barrel to change tools or reposition from one block to the next. Some use a drill press and fixture to locate here barrels need to fit into tooling and hole spacing needs to match the drill jigs he has.
A "straight" octagon or round contour barrel may be or may not. I have a straight octagon contour barrel that has slightly varying angles of the flats and high and low spot ( not a lot but its there) probably not from the machining but from the hand polishing of the flats thru draw filing and sanding. Again for accurate work this needs to be taken into consideration. Another area this comes from is table rock when machining the contour. traveling 20"-34" a machines table will be low on one end ast it sets and as it travels over center the weight of the table puts the play in the gibs in the other direction creating a slightly rounded convex surface.
I respect the craftsman who asks questions and finds out before hand whats going on and whats expected, Hes the best chance of a satisfactory finished project. He finds out what is expected before he sets up.
Last is the basic and most important the skill level of the person you have selected. Some are willing to research and do the homework to do a good job, some think they know and give an iffy job and last is the one that's scared of anything he hasn't done before. Finding a gunsmith today that's experienced in the unertal set up is going to be an older gentleman who may have other better paying jobs in the shop.

[GARD72977]

It's on 7.2 inches center to center. What mill cans travel 8 inches?

I agree with the OP. I can see the gun smith asking curiously but if he has a deer in the headlights look I would move on to some one else.

I'm no smith but I have a tapered Octogon I'm going to drill soon. Just bought a unertl. I ask a Gunsmith at work a few questions and he had good answers. My favorite was " I've walked many a mile around a barrel in the vise before I drilled it!"

He can tell you about going to the grocery store and it sounds like an epic adventure.

[megasupermagnum]

There are certainly real gunsmiths around, and I am luck enough to be near a handful. I do know of a number of the type you describe. I know a guy that was honest, yeah they really only put together AR's. The ones that baffle me are the ones that say all they can do is mount scopes (he couldn't drill or tap), sight in, change stocks etc. I mean really? There are guys that are either too lazy or incompetent to mount their own dang scope and sight in? How do those people expect to be able to load their own magazine?

[uscra112]

I specialize in bolt action rifles, and can do just about anything to one you might like. And I don't allow AR types or others like that in the shop. I just don't want to deal with the typical type of person who owns them. So no, not all 'smiths are parts changers. But a whole lot are.

An awful lot of AR armorers think they are smiths. We need to get that cleared up. If you can't make, fit, temper and finish a part from raw stock, you ain't a gunsmith.

Personally, I do pre-WW1 single shots for myself only, so I don't have any Parkenfarkers coming to a shop counter demanding my time. But I have been known to pack up and leave the range when a bunch of AR rambos shows up. Arrogance and ignorance in equal measure, like as not.

[am44mag]

I specialize in bolt action rifles, and can do just about anything to one you might like. And I don't allow AR types or others like that in the shop. I just don't want to deal with the typical type of person who owns them. So no, not all 'smiths are parts changers. But a whole lot are.

Geeze, thanks a lot. People from all walks of life own and enjoy those guns, but I guess they don't deserve good gunsmithing services, just part changers who don't know their muzzle from their butt. Most of my guns are older then the vast majority of this forum, but I sure as heck enjoy ARs too. I'm far from alone in that.

[Nobade]

Geeze, thanks a lot. People from all walks of life own and enjoy those guns, but I guess they don't deserve good gunsmithing services, just part changers who don't know their muzzle from their butt. Most of my guns are older then the vast majority of this forum, but I sure as heck enjoy ARs too. I'm far from alone in that.Obviously not everyone who owns a semi auto military type rifle is a bad guy. But averages do apply, and after 35 years of experience obvious trends do emerge. Some types of firearms attract types of people who I would rather not have as customers, for various reasons. Of course there are exceptions, as there are everywhere.

[am44mag]

Obviously not everyone who owns a semi auto military type rifle is a bad guy. But averages do apply, and after 35 years of experience obvious trends do emerge. Some types of firearms attract types of people who I would rather not have as customers, for various reasons. Of course there are exceptions, as there are everywhere.

I see where you're coming from, but it's hard to tack someone down based on what gun they own. Really, the AR-15 is kind of like the modern bolt action .22 or pump action shotgun. Everyone's got one whether they use it or not. I can fully agree with tossing out the tactical ninja crowd if they're just there to waste your time. What about the guy like me who might walk in wanting an AR-10 rechambered for 358 Winchester?

[Nobade]

Hmm, interesting question. I'd have to ask you what your goals are for the rifle, what your timeline is, and what your budget is. Most likely by the time we had talked for an hour I would have recommended several barrel makers who produce those already, and you would go home to order one. You would possibly wonder why I wasn't excited to make you a new barrel, and I would be thinking about all the projects I need to do and the last hour I could have spent on the lathe getting work done. I will occasionally build AR barrels, but it's only worth it for guys using them for some sort of accuracy competition since you can buy very good high quality barrels for far less money than I can build you one for. Essentially it's not worth your time or mine.
I see where you're coming from, but it's hard to tack someone down based on what gun they own. Really, the AR-15 is kind of like the modern bolt action .22 or pump action shotgun. Everyone's got one whether they use it or not. I can fully agree with tossing out the tactical ninja crowd if they're just there to waste your time. What about the guy like me who might walk in wanting an AR-10 rechambered for 358 Winchester?

[roverboy]

Nah - he just hadda be nuts...………………

.

You nailed it

[country gent]

Back years ago when some enterprising high power shooters started working with 80 grn bullets and the long vlds in 223 they were tested in bolt rifles. When they proved out as being the equal t 30 cal at 600yds the service rifle shooters started converting to it. there were very few match grade 22 cal 1-7 twist barrels service rifle contour available so you had to buy a blank and find a smith to contour and time it correctly for an ar-15. One of the custom makers could do this ( kriegers was offering cut rifled heavy service rifle with bolt and extension) If they offered the 1-7 twist then it was a option most didn't till it really caught on.

A gunsmith that can make the barrel from a blank correctly cutting the contour timing and locating the gas port and fit it is a true gunsmith. The guy who can only order pre fit barrels ( Barrels with all work done extension installed and bolt in ARs ) and install them is a parts changer. Contouring and timing takes time and extra work. Setting up so the gas port is in the groove then timing everything off it is a tedious job. Bolt actions are much faster and a full build custom bolt rifle probably pays better too.

The gunsmith I used was very good and would do ARs for high power shooters and some others but the tactical and preppers drove him nuts, tying up time and then complaining about costs.

[RogerDat]

Funny this came up.
This weekend I drove to a gunsmith to see about some work on an Enfield Mark V trials rifle. He was excited to be doing it. I then asked could he drill and tap a No. 3 sporter? Little over $50 bucks. Had one to show me how he would do it. Mossberg 500? Yep $50 with the current filler screws so threads stay clean if the rail is removed. I can drill and tap, have the tools and decent amount of experience but I'm sure I'll get a better job from a professional and at his price it is money well spent. I do have to drive an hour to get there but skill and an earned reputation in his craft make it worth the time.

AR builders? Might well be a talented specialist serving a popular niche or an inexperienced parts changer. But if the fellow is still there doing AR assembly in 20 some years then he can be considered as successful as the fellow I dealt with last weekend. Good muffler and brake mechanic isn't a master mechanic but is still worth his pay. Guess there can be poor examples for both levels.

[Geezer in NH]

In my shop I used lathes, and Mills making fire arms.

Making an AR never required either they are bolt together IMHO.

Making them as an actual gunsmith project no matter who does the fitting NO.

Way it is to me.

Buy the best parts you can get and put it together. Fitting the top and lower together requires some knowledge but for run of the mill guns being put together No.

[scattershot]

IMO, there are a few good gunsmiths around, good luck finding one. Most are parts changers anymore.

[John Taylor]

The fun part about being a gunsmith is dealing with customers. Today I got a call from someone asking how much powder he should use to proof his muzzle loader. Had to ask a few questions to find out what and why. He had a new factory barrel made from 12L14 in 50 cal. Then he proceeded to tell me what Dixie gunworks said about proof testing a barrel. I told him to work up a load that shot well starting with 60 grains and not to worry about proof testing unless he had an old forge welded barrel.
There was a shop in Idaho that installed a sight on an old rifle for a customer. Good thing he tried to clean the bore before going to the range, there were screws sticking down in the bore. The customer took it back to the smith and was told that he forgot to cut the screws off. Customer told the smith he wanted a new barrel.
There are a lot of people out there that can drill and tap a hole but getting the hole in the right spot and not doing damage takes a little more skill.
I charge $30 a hole.

[waksupi]

The fun part about being a gunsmith is dealing with customers. Today I got a call from someone asking how much powder he should use to proof his muzzle loader. Had to ask a few questions to find out what and why. He had a new factory barrel made from 12L14 in 50 cal. Then he proceeded to tell me what Dixie gunworks said about proof testing a barrel. I told him to work up a load that shot well starting with 60 grains and not to worry about proof testing unless he had an old forge welded barrel.
There was a shop in Idaho that installed a sight on an old rifle for a customer. Good thing he tried to clean the bore before going to the range, there were screws sticking down in the bore. The customer took it back to the smith and was told that he forgot to cut the screws off. Customer told the smith he wanted a new barrel.
There are a lot of people out there that can drill and tap a hole but getting the hole in the right spot and not doing damage takes a little more skill.
I charge $30 a hole.

I recall a so-called gunsmith who drilled through the barrel of a Sharps to mount sights. First shot, the sight took a trip.

[KCSO]

Had a factory Mowery shotgun that had the forend pin through the barrel. Called them and they said that was the other guys that use to own the shop and we don't stand by there work...sorry.

[merlin101]

There was a shop in Idaho that installed a sight on an old rifle for a customer. Good thing he tried to clean the bore before going to the range, there were screws sticking down in the bore. The customer took it back to the smith and was told that he forgot to cut the screws off. Customer told the smith he wanted a new barrel.
There are a lot of people out there that can drill and tap a hole but getting the hole in the right spot and not doing damage takes a little more skill.
I charge $30 a hole.

I would imagine that most DIYer would concentrate on getting all the holes lined up and many would not think that much about the depth. I've seen the end result of that at gun shows and flea markets.
$30 a hole can add up but is still WAY less than the cost of a new barrel!

[RogerDat]

I will put in something of a good word for "parts changers" in that changing a part and/or making adjustments has some value. It can also be a step on the way to becoming a gunsmith just as skut work in a tool room can be a stepping stone to a machine operator and eventually a machinist. Or parts changer and tune up person moving toward being an auto mechanic. Folks have to start someplace. Thing is to avoid presenting yourself as competent to work on brakes when you really only have the skills to do tune ups.

The shop or trades person that says to me "we don't do that, you might want to check with...." they may not get that job but I may well come back for what they do provide if needed and won't speak ill of them for being honest about their limitations. Had an auto shop send me to a transmission shop who using experience was able to provide a minor (cost wise) fix. Auto shop said they could install a rebuilt but just didn't have the knowledge of the trans shop.

Same thing happened with installing a 7 pin trailer plug and brake controller. Take it to this hitch shop, we would have to send it out to them if vehicle doesn't have a factory kit that plugs in. For what they wanted to charge at the hitch shop I took the Advil and went ahead and did it myself. But I do appreciate the auto shop telling me their limitations.

I can drill and tap but I'll pay someone to do it if it increases the possibility of a better job and not consider the money wasted as long as the cost is reasonable. For highly skilled work well the workman is worthy of his wages as they say.

[DCM]

IMO there are very few real gunsmiths left and certainly very near none in my neck of the woods.
The only one left around here is mostly retired and Very selective about what he gets involved with any more, the other got snached up by the Army when they found out how good he is.
I do a lot of my own work but I am sure nowhere near being a true smith.
There are a bunch of guys around here that claim to be smiths that assemble ARs but won't touch anything else.
Then we also have the "Glocksmiths". I am not impressed with them either.

[megasupermagnum]

IMO there are very few real gunsmiths left and certainly very near none in my neck of the woods.
The only one left around here is mostly retired and Very selective about what he gets involved with any more, the other got snached up by the Army when they found out how good he is.
I do a lot of my own work but I am sure nowhere near being a true smith.
There are a bunch of guys around here that claim to be smiths that assemble ARs but won't touch anything else.
Then we also have the "Glocksmiths". I am not impressed with them either.

Where in the upper midwest do you live? I know of 3 within an hour drive of me that are first class. One is Pat Laib who specializes shotguns, I'd bet every trap shooter in the country is familiar with him. Even E. Arthur Brown has a good gunsmith department.

[DCM]

S.E. WI
We have some Great barrel makers and Riflesmiths but the Only real gunsmiths I know of in these parts are retired and Very selective.
Ther is/was one in central WI but I am not sure he is still with us. I have heard there is an excellent Shotgunsmith in central WI but I have not dealt with him or needed his services. I believe we have a Few gunsmiths on Castboolits but they are not in my neck of the woods.

[fatelk]

I have a friend who is a plumber, owns his business. He said once that a large percentage of his calls could be handled by a novice. Unclogging a P-trap, changing a wax seal on a toilet, stuff like that. Gunsmithing can be a bit like that.

I've had friends over the years who have suggested that I should become a professional gunsmith, and I say absolutely not. I'm pretty good at troubleshooting and fixing things that don't require specialized tools and tooling (have been helping friends with their stuff for decades), but when it comes to real gunsmithing I just don't have the training, experience, and tools to ever call myself a gunsmith. I also tell them I couldn't afford the pay cut. :)

What my friends don't understand is that when I help them clean up and refinish a trashed stock, tear down and replace a broken spring in a lever action rifle, replace a broken firing pin in an ancient .22 rifle, or any number of things like that; they buy the parts and I donate my time. While it usually turns out real nice, I'm not real fast. If I ever charged for my time (which I don't), it would be expensive. If they took it to a smith, it would be expensive. In this day of cheap factory guns everyone expects cheap, cheap. I suspect the only way a gunsmith can make a decent living nowaday is to be good enough to have a reputation for excellent work, to attract customers willing to pay a fair price for quality work.

[JSnover]

Does it make you wonder if there are so few 'smiths nowadays because there are so many more shooters who just want some parts changed out?
I mean, if you look at all the aftermarket gadgets you can't help but notice a lot of them are junk but they sell. The Mall Ninjas and Chairborne Rangers can't buy enough of that stuff and just want someone to bolt it on quick so they can head for the range to spend an afternoon mag-dumping. Not all of them, of course, but the market is there and a lot of guys don't know what they really need.
It gets scary when you think of how may shooters wouldn't know shoddy work until a part fell off or a barrel was ruined. I passed on an old single shot 12 gage years ago because someone had epoxied something to the barrel. When they changed their mind, they hacked off the offending part with a hand-held grinder. I didn't take any pictures, you'll just have to imagine how it looked.
Sometimes I wonder if the reason there are so few real gunsmiths left is because there are so few customers who understand the value of a good 'smith.

[EDG]

My boss brought his brother's muzzle loader barrel to work and asked me to get it drilled and tapped for a scope by one of the tool makers.
After that was done on the opposite side from the bases I super glued 4 #6 hex nuts with 4 #6 set screws so it looked like the base mounting screws were attached with nuts. His brother nearly fainted but we never got anymore home projects like that.

[uscra112]

My boss brought his brother's muzzle loader barrel to work and asked me to get it drilled and tapped for a scope by one of the tool makers.
After that was done on the opposite side from the bases I super glued 4 #6 hex nuts with 4 #6 set screws so it looked like the base mounting screws were attached with nuts. His brother nearly fainted but we never got anymore home projects like that.

ROFLMAO! I wish I'd thought of that!

[DCM]

JSnover I believe you are correct, add to that most folks are not willing to pay for Quality workmanship also.

EDG LOL!!! love it, I may borrow that some day when the time is right.

[fjruple]

I found these folks runs the whole range from the weekend "assembler" to the classical trained gunsmith. The real danger are the individuals who go beyond their capabilities. I don't know how many times I have asked the AR "assemblers", did you check the headspacing on the rifle after you finished assembling the AR or AK platform and you get the deer in the head lights look? Or they say, "What that?" Another question, I ask is, "Do you have insurance? in event something should happen based on his work?" You will be surprise how many folks do not have insurance if a gun blows up in someone's face. (Seen that happen to another gunsmith with a 10 gauge double when the chamber let loose from too much heat being applied to re-attach the top rib to the shotgun and the customer lost an eye. The gunsmith lost just about everything from the following law suits.) I also seen gunsmith who cannot say no and they sit on their customers rifles for years awaiting for the time they will acquire the knowledge to do the work which never happens. Generalized gunsmithing does not make money. You really have to fine someone who specializes in the gun or service that you need. If you want a new barrel it's best to sent the action to the barrel specialist and have them put the barrel on and headspace the chamber. If it a new stock sent the rifle to the stock specialist. If it's just replacing a broke part and the shooter is mechanically inclined. I will tell them to just order the part themselves and put it in themselves. On the other hand I have seen where a "customer" will bring in a completely disassembled Model 1896 Mauser Broomhandle in a shoe box wanting me to assembly his pistol. But of course there is always one or two parts that are misplaced! And they upset when I tell that it will cost them $75.00 an hour to put it together plus any parts that are missing, then I tell not to play gunsmith and that's why I charge that much for work and experience. If they do not like it they can find someone to assembly their pistol!! In a lot of case if I am to busy with other work I just tell that I cannot do it right now and that they should find someone else to help them.

[country gent]

One of the Bosses at work went to a local gun show and picked up a demilled M14 receiver. Brought it into the tool room wanting me to weld it together and assemble a rifle with the selector welded up in the way state Association guns were. I refused telling him that project was good for 10 years. Then had to explain to him that if caught with it assembled into working rifle it was still a full auto rifle even though selector was welded in semi only. His reasoning was garands had been demilled and welded back together and were legal. He just couldn't understand the Garand wasn't selective fire weapon ever.

[JeepHammer]

Well, I have to say I do a LOT less 'Smithing' these days...
The current craze of AR clones doesn't lend itself to any craftsmanship.

I worked for a retired gunsmith before the Marines, did 16 years in the Marines, 20 something after, and I can't believe what passes for an AR (clone) these days.
It takes a day just to explain the difference between a milspec AR version and what passes for an AR.
The $299 farm/discount store specials scare me to look at them, I darn sure am NOT going to shoot one!

There is just something about German silver, premium wood, machining so tight you can barely find the separation lines between pieces, bone case or rich blue finish I can't shake, loved it as a young kid, still gives me a thrill to this day.

I mostly do jobber work, tool & die, but I'll make the time for a really good rifle job.

The biggest problem I have with the current crop of $299 specials is their owners, I hate working for idiots that think a 16" barrel .223 chambered rifle is going to shoot 1,000 yards with white box discount ammo from a gun show, and they want me to mount a $60 bubble pack optic from wally-world so they can shoot that 1,000 yards...
You KNOW when the $299 rifle with $60 optic doesn't shoot a decent group, it's going to be YOUR 'Fault' to everyone they meet from then on!

Then there is the "Can you make it full auto on the down low?" (Usually followed by 'Dawg')
The answer is always a loud "NO!" (Just in case the conversation is being recorded),
I'm not doing 10 or 20 years because you want a 'Toy' and/or can't pass the BATFE/Homeland background check to get a legal full auto from a licenced class 3 dealer!

Besides, semi auto fire scares the **** out of me in these pieces of junk, there is no way I'd try full auto!

The next class of customer has already been discussed, the 'Tacti-Cool' owner.
I have no interest in hanging the third laser, cappuccino maker, selfie stick, aircraft landing lights, rear view mirror, tampon dispenser, the fifth handle/hand grip, harmonica, or what ever goofy accessory they found on eBay on any rifle...

If you *THINK* you've seen it all, then this comes along...
Steel yourself before you click on the link!
https://media.karousell.com/media/photos/products/2018/01/28/tac_sac_foregrip_wbb_nerf_1517126401_4539c4ab.jpg

[lefty o]

Well, I have to say I do a LOT less 'Smithing' these days...
The current craze of AR clones doesn't lend itself to any craftsmanship.

I worked for a retired gunsmith before the Marines, did 16 years in the Marines, 20 something after, and I can't believe what passes for an AR (clone) these days.
It takes a day just to explain the difference between a milspec AR version and what passes for an AR.
The $299 farm/discount store specials scare me to look at them, I darn sure am NOT going to shoot one!

There is just something about German silver, premium wood, machining so tight you can barely find the separation lines between pieces, bone case or rich blue finish I can't shake, loved it as a young kid, still gives me a thrill to this day.

I mostly do jobber work, tool & die, but I'll make the time for a really good rifle job.

The biggest problem I have with the current crop of $299 specials is their owners, I hate working for idiots that think a 16" barrel .223 chambered rifle is going to shoot 1,000 yards with white box discount ammo from a gun show, and they want me to mount a $60 bubble pack optic from wally-world so they can shoot that 1,000 yards...
You KNOW when the $299 rifle with $60 optic doesn't shoot a decent group, it's going to be YOUR 'Fault' to everyone they meet from then on!

Then there is the "Can you make it full auto on the down low?" (Usually followed by 'Dawg')
The answer is always a loud "NO!" (Just in case the conversation is being recorded),
I'm not doing 10 or 20 years because you want a 'Toy' and/or can't pass the BATFE/Homeland background check to get a legal full auto from a licenced class 3 dealer!

Besides, semi auto fire scares the **** out of me in these pieces of junk, there is no way I'd try full auto!

The next class of customer has already been discussed, the 'Tacti-Cool' owner.
I have no interest in hanging the third laser, cappuccino maker, selfie stick, aircraft landing lights, rear view mirror, tampon dispenser, the fifth handle/hand grip, harmonica, or what ever goofy accessory they found on eBay on any rifle...

If you *THINK* you've seen it all, then this comes along...
Steel yourself before you click on the link!
https://media.karousell.com/media/photos/products/2018/01/28/tac_sac_foregrip_wbb_nerf_1517126401_4539c4ab.jpg
that is obviously for those who dont have their own set!

[country gent]

Oh now the capachino maker is traditional since one model rifle issued in the civil war had a coffee grinder mounted on the buttstock of every so many rifles. LOL

[john.k]

Unfortunately,with rent,taxes,all kinds of local authority fees,charges, and special levies,you have to do what the customer wants if you plan on staying financial.....and the guy coming thru the door is a customer,you just have to sell him something..........After all,how many auto mechanics make the parts they fit.

[MaLar]

my boss brought his brother's muzzle loader barrel to work and asked me to get it drilled and tapped for a scope by one of the tool makers.
After that was done on the opposite side from the bases i super glued 4 #6 hex nuts with 4 #6 set screws so it looked like the base mounting screws were attached with nuts. His brother nearly fainted but we never got anymore home projects like that.

lol snort snort!

[mazo kid]

A while back I wanted a 40 cal octagon barrel fitted to a Trapdoor action. There is an experienced gunsmith 16 miles away, but his turn around is over 18 months. I found this local guy who used to work with an actual 'smith and was working on his own now. I asked him about the job and he said it would cost $250.00. When I brought in the parts he hemmed and hawed, said it would be over $350.00, depending. I checked on the job a couple of months later and he said he wouldn't (read....couldn't) do it. I then contacted a guy who was recommended to me on ASSRA. He said the guy I took the parts to first wasn't much of a real 'smith if he couldn't thread a barrel. I sent him the parts, he fitted the barrel to the receiver and rechambered it for $125.00. Very nice work, and I had it returned in less than 2 months. So, just do your homework; there are honest, competent people out there. Be aware though, if they ARE good, there may be a bit of a wait.

[JeepHammer]

Respectfully,
I find it's not building from scratch, heat treating, ect.
It's about getting what ever is shady right as it can be.

I watched Remington 700 actions being made about 15 years ago during a tour of the plant.
I watched tubing being cut off on a hack saw. No parting on a lathe, no CNC saw, just a plain old power hack saw.
Then the sections were bundled together and held against a grinding stone against a perpendicular stop.
This is a bundle, about 10 at a time.
They shifted and moved as they were being faced off.
The next step was forcing the tubing onto a reamer to size the inside of the tube.
This was a tapered reamer, no attempt to center the cut with the outside profile of the tubing.
Then the section was dropped into a 'V' clamp and forced onto a tap.
No attempt to center the threads, and other than the 'V' block no attempt to align the barrel threads with the bore. Not even a pilot on the tap...

I have a standard I run rifles through (I don't do many pistols),
I pull the barrel and true/square the receiver, usually the front receiver face isn't square with the bore.

Then it's checking the threads, since most 'Off The Shelf' receivers aren't threaded on a lathe, the threads aren't true with the receiver bore.
Once the receiver is true/square, it's making sure the barrel threads are deep enough and square.
You wouldn't believe how many recoil lugs are tapered one direction or another, and that misaligns the barrel with receiver.

Once everything is lined up, it's time to lap the bolt face & lugs square with the bore.
You can lap tight spots in the receiver/bolt interface, but if the bolt is sloppy there is very little you can do.
There are a couple of 'tricks', but you are limited...

Once everything in action/barrel is square, then I hang the barreled action between centers and check the alignment for sights/optics mounts.
Nothing quite like having sights/optics line up with the bore, no shifting sights/optics way off center line to get a zero.

Now, keep in mind, if the sights/optics are misaligned on the RECEIVER, you can get a zero at one fixed range, but it will shoot on one side of zero at shorter distances, shift to the other side at longer distances...
The closer/farther you shoot, the more it shifts...

Since in the Marines, we shot a standard weight/velocity/BC round, things like 'Spin Drift' (stupid term) was predetermined, and when optics are angled, that standard calculation is way off of the tables...
I mean WAY off the tables, like off a 8 foot target backboard at 800 yards!

There are little things, like using set screws to get the cocking piece locked up level on the receiver.
This gets the trigger/sear square so the trigger work means something...

When everything else is done, then I cut/polish the chamber for headspace.
Sometimes headspace is WAY too long, so it's new threads on the barrel to set the chamber back, the trimming the chamber end, cutting for extractor if required, and proper headspace.

With AR clones, much of the same rules apply.
Facing off the front of the receiver square with the BCG bore gets the barrel aligned with the upper receiver.
Very few AR uppers are faced off, and between the forging, threading & anodizing processes, it's common for the upper to cock the barrel 0.030"-0.040", and up to 0.100" cocked out of square.

Keep in mind, without the barrel/chamber nut being true with upper receiver bore, the bolt locking lugs CAN NOT lock up solidly, one or two lugs will make partial contact, but most won't even touch!
I call putting all the firing stress on one or two lugs DANGEROUS!

I lap the upper for size.
Between 'Questionable' machining & irregular anodizing, it's not uncommon to have a really rough surface, and not evenly sized.
Lapping gets the bore straight walled and even, and smooth it down so it's not so abrasive to the bolt carrier.

Once the upper is sized, squared & true, again, I hang it between centers in the bore & check optic/sight alignment with the bore.
Since I don't want to cut the upper (if it's out of alignment), with Picatinny mounts/rings, I mark the mount/rings for front/rear and right/left and machine the mount/rings to match the misalignment of the mount with bore.
Rings being cheaper than upper, I pretty much think this is the better end of the compromise.

I can't seem to get owners to understand the importance of marking rings front/rear, right/left and then LAPPING the optics saddles/caps round & true with the bore.
It takes about 15 minutes to imprint witness marks into caps/saddles so the get back on in the correct positions, and turned the right way for the bores to line up round & true...
This means no bent, ovaled or crushed tubes, and with the cost of even a mediocre optic, it's worth 15 minutes of shop time.

I guess if you are going with the $49.99 bubble pack optic & ring package from Wally-World, it doesn't matter much, but I see them screw Leupold and similar priced optics into $15 eBay rings, then blame the rifle when it won't shoot on the tables...

Then there are issues with the gas tube fitting the BCG interface.
While gas tubes are pretty consistent (suprisingly), the gas blocks and barrel gas port drillings are often screwed up.
When the gas tube is 'Short', you can take a little bit of the bends out to make it seal with the gas key on the BCG. When it's 'Long', you put a little more bend in the gas tube.
Some won't fit no matter what you do, time for a new gas block...

Tuning the gas system is a nightmare with the HUGE difference in loads.
Since you can't explain to the owner the gas pulse is both pressure & duration (time), they ALWAYS break out the hand drill & expand the gas port in the barrel & block before they come see you!

Then there are the 'Idiot' walk-ins...
The guy that did his own ring mount, ran the wrong screw into the bolt and then twisted it off, can't get the bolt open, but YOU are supposed to 'Fix It' for $5 IMMEDATELY...

The guy that didn't own a drill stop and drilled all the way through the barrel trying to expand the gas port size...

The guy that shows up with the firearm in a box, took it apart, let it lay around for two years, lost parts, and thinks YOU are going to have everything in stock and will slap it together in 30 seconds for $5.

The guy that watched a YouTube video and ground his trigger into junk trying to do a trigger job, and YOU are going to fix it with super glue in 3 minutes while he waits...

The one I liked the best was the guy that missed half a dozen rabbits with his new pump gun, grabbed it by the barrel and beat a phone pole with it... 3 bends in the barrel, barrel/receiver so sprung/bent they wouldn't hold together, broke the stock off, and thought I could 'Fix' it overnight so he could hunt again tomorrow!
The best part... It had a loaded round in the chamber! (Talk about an ultra safe trigger!)

Even the lazy orange shop cat looked at him like an idiot...

[leebuilder]

I almost peed jeep hammer. Your customers must have left your place and came up here. I don't do right away, "if it's that important drop by tomorrow"
Had one guy insist that I take the parts he needed off one of my rifles, that idea flew like a lead kite.
Apparently 15.00 is to much for a custom lathe cut screw, at a moments notice.
Be well

[JeepHammer]

I get some winners...

An older Remington 870 came in, complaint was 'Sticky' trigger...
Found a maple leaf seed and about a pound of dirt/carbon/crud lodged firmly in the receiver & trigger group, and what looked like hardened chocolate syrup in the trigger group.
After 3 DAYS in the ultrasonic cleaner the trigger group loosened up enough to operate.
I asked the guy what he had been using for gun oil... Used cooking oil!

A really nice 1917 revolver came in with the complaint of 'Backfiring'...
The guy was carrying a ratty box of military steel jacketed ammo FROM 1931!
Said they found pistol/ammo in 'Grandpas' belongings and tried to shoot it,
Not one, not Two, but THREE bullets lodged in the barrel!
Barrel looked like a snake that swallowed an egg! "Can't you just drill it out?, we really want to shoot it."

The guy that had 'Blow Back' complaints in a .223 Ruger M77, asked me to check headspace.
I couldn't find a thing wrong with it. Fired it several times and it did great.
I asked him to come by and shoot it, he showed up with a box of .222 ammo, 3 rounds spent, necks blown out.
--- Think I found the problem!

An old double with ears showed up, 130+ years old if it was a day, worked to death, simply worn out, the guy wants me to chamber it for 3-1/2" 'Turkey Magnums'...

Mr. Tacti-Cool comes in, has everything you can add onto a shotgun clamped on this mossburg knockoff (Mavrick I think).
The SINGLE rod from fore grip to action is bent almost double, and the receiver is sprung/gapped.
Wants me to show him how to 'Un-Jam' it, "In Combat, Like the NAVY Seals do!".

The all time best was a guy that starts the conversation with, "You do a lot of cops guns don't you?"
And proceeds to tell me he wants me to be an "Expert Witness" where he's suing a firearms maker because he shot himself in the butt cheek trying to holster his handgun.
I ask to see the firearm, he says, "The cops took it".
I ask why, he finally admits he's a FELON and wasn't supposed to have a firearm in the first place!
Too bad the holster wasn't in front so he didn't reproduce!

Sometimes it doesn't pay to get out of bed...

[Nobade]

And people wonder why we don't do general gunsmithing...

[bob208]

I don't call my self a gunsmith. but i have made my own barrels on my rifling machine i made my self. made new pims for old single shots. relined barrels. made adjustable scope mounts and installed them. made long slide 1911 from cut up slides bought from demilled guns. shortened a 95 mauser action and bolt to use 7.62x39.

[Texas by God]

I don't call my self a gunsmith. but i have made my own barrels on my rifling machine i made my self. made new pims for old single shots. relined barrels. made adjustable scope mounts and installed them. made long slide 1911 from cut up slides bought from demilled guns. shortened a 95 mauser action and bolt to use 7.62x39.I'll call you one.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[ANick57]

My boss brought his brother's muzzle loader barrel to work and asked me to get it drilled and tapped for a scope by one of the tool makers.
After that was done on the opposite side from the bases I super glued 4 #6 hex nuts with 4 #6 set screws so it looked like the base mounting screws were attached with nuts. His brother nearly fainted but we never got anymore home projects like that.

BRILLIANT!!!! :) That one would only have been better had I thought of it back when... as it is, I had a face and a name to go with that tale. :)