Paper Patched Bullets Don't Work

[Guy La Pourqe]

Whether it actually happened, or it's just urban myth - the version of the story I have goes like this: the tall foreheads at NASA got together with the egg heads at the Jet Propulsion Labs and over beers or coffee - and they turned their formidable knowledge of flight dynamics on the common honey bee. They studied the critter, hemmed and hawed, took measurements - and then the slip sticks came out for some recreational out house math. The results were unexpected, and they frowned in consternation The programmable calculators came out. The results of that induced panic - and the whole shebang ended up in an ivory tower somewhere with a Cray supercomputer. The results were devastating. The super computer pronounced that it was physically impossible for the bee to fly. The honey bee had broken math and the laws of physics - because the little critter flew when science said it should not. Minds snapped and careers ended with gibbering, crazed ex-scientists trying to assimilate the impossible. Some snapped, and became irredeemable intellectual wrecks and liberals. Banished from the hallowed halls of academia, others ended up as gibbering, gobbling zealots of fringe cults like The Flat Earth Society.


I fear we may be headed down the same path, gentlemen. Those of you with fragile minds and egos had better turn away from what follows. Those of you that wish to follow this path to it's conclusion - you have been warned!:D


Consider the paper patched bullet. Some of the gun club duffers and stubfarts at my rod n' gun club say that the paper patch serves to contain the exploding pressure behind the bullet - and the pressure in turn drives the bullet forward. I've heard them say the same about the patched round balls favoured by our front-stuffing brethren in the muzzle loading forum. I know this to be false: with ultra slow motion photography, we see clouds of burning gases exit from the muzzle of a flintlock first - followed by the patched paper ball. And of course, as the ball follows its trajectory, the patch falls away. It is my conviction that Dr. Sam Fadala was right - the patch serves only to impart the spin from the rifling.


Moving forward from the muzzle loader to our BPCR guns … shouldn't the same apply? I've never used paper patched bullets myself but have seen others do it. When the gun fires, what comes out of the muzzle is the gases, the bullet, and confetti. To me, the paper patch has to be fully or partially immolated and incinerated during the firing process. How can mere burning paper in that state even serve to impart the spin of the rifling to the bullet? Is this possible?


Methinks not.


Unless somebody can convince me of the error of my logic, I will be forced to address our fellows of the BPCR persuasion with admonishment and reprimand. Pending logical evidence to the contrary I will have to insist that they cease and desist with their erroneous ways and repent - or be forever cast out and exiled from The Brotherhood Of The Boolit.

[rfd]

PPB cartridges work extremely well. they win matches against greasers. i only load my bpcr guns with PPB cartridges. there are distinct advantages with a PPB cartridge. i stopped using greasers years ago. how the PPB cartridge is built is of importance. the slick bullet and paper selection matter a bunch, but are not at all difficult to determine.

building PPB's - a primer (http://www.bpgang.com/ppb/ppbcartridges.pdf)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XT9Cekqb_M

[Edward]

PPB cartridges work extremely well. they win matches against greasers. i only load my bpcr guns with PPB cartridges. there are distinct advantages with a PPB cartridge. i stopped using greasers years ago. how the PPB cartridge is built is of importance. the slick bullet and paper selection matter a bunch, but are not at all difficult to determine.

building PPB's - a primer (http://www.bpgang.com/ppb/ppbcartridges.pdf)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XT9Cekqb_M Picture worth a thousand words ,(kinda says it all) /Ed

[Nueces]

The air in the barrel in front of the bullet comes out first no matter how well the combustion gasses are sealed behind it. If there is crud and fouling in the bore, that first gust can be dirty and appear as if the bullet is leaking gas.

[oldred]

The air in the barrel in front of the bullet comes out first no matter how well the combustion gasses are sealed behind it. If there is crud and fouling in the bore, that first gust can be dirty and appear as if the bullet is leaking gas.

My thoughts also but then too why MUST it be one way or the other and not both? That is (pure speculation here folks) that a small, almost insignificant but still detectable, amount of gas does get by the patch while the vast majority of it is still contained behind the bullet. Even if a PPB were loaded without the paper and most of the gas blew right past as it rattled down the bore some gas would still be trapped behind the poorly sealed bullet otherwise it would not even leave the barrel, or am I simply missing the OP's point in all this?

[country gent]

On a bore riding bullet the soft heavy bullet expands to seal the bore under pressure the paper rips the rifling and imparts spin to the bullet. The paper is intact in the barrel. The base wads also expand to seal the barrel. Recovered patches come out with the outer wrap in confetti or strips as its press the hardest. the inner wrap is intact and shows the rifling press into it thru the outer wrap with the fold over intact with it. Recovered patches may show a slight discoloration from fouled bore but no burns or scorching is apparent even the fold over is clean and white.
Examining recovered patches can tell you a lot about you load and barrel. I paper patch for 38-55, 45-70, 40-65 and 45-90. One advantage to the PP bore riding bullet is one its up in the bore and wrapped correctly well centered. Most load these with 1/8"-3/16" of the bullet in the case making more room for powder. On some cartridges this can be a big plus. Accuracy can be very good when everything is right. Another plus can be a slightly better BC do to less drag from engravings on the bullet. Another is as long as the patch stays intact no leading In the bore. I have seen pics here of recovered fired bullet that show the rifling on the sides thru the PP bullet but now depth to it.

[Tom W.]

I thought the NASA study was about a bumble bee....

As for patched RB in a muzzleloader, if you look at the base of a Maxi-ball after it is fired and the backside of a rb, you'll see little burn marks in the MB, and may find weave marks in a rb where it gripped the rifling.

[rfd]

all interesting comments and dialogue. that's good and that's about all. with a black powder PPB cartridge the bottom line to me is that once a slick and patch mate well, and are harmonious with the bore, all is good 'n' happy and load testing for cartridge variations can begin. PPBs offer no leading issues, bore riders have no concern over OAL, and very little brass is worked 'cause the PPB just gets pushed into fire formed brass. them old timers knew good stuff. i shudda listened up decades ago.

[Nobade]

I wish this thing had a like button.

[GhostHawk]

ROFLMAO @ educated idiots @ NASA and JPL.

Any farm boy can tell you even bumblebee's fly.

If the study shows the bee should not fly it seems to me some part of the science is wrong.

Danger, Danger Will Robinson!

[kens]

All that about gas leakage and gas blowby has to do with bullet (ball) to bore fit and patch (paper or cloth).
Soft lead obturates (expands in diameter) with the detonation of the powder.
Doesnt matter if you use cloth patch with round ball, or paper patch with (soft)bullet, or grease groove bullet, they all (are capable of) obturate and seal the bore.
Heck, you can even use a naked bullet, no lube, no patch, and it is possible to obturate and seal the bore, and spin the bullet,......you just may not be able to repeat that operation a great many times before leading.

[indian joe]

Whether it actually happened, or it's just urban myth - the version of the story I have goes like this: the tall foreheads at NASA got together with the egg heads at the Jet Propulsion Labs and over beers or coffee - and they turned their formidable knowledge of flight dynamics on the common honey bee. They studied the critter, hemmed and hawed, took measurements - and then the slip sticks came out for some recreational out house math. The results were unexpected, and they frowned in consternation The programmable calculators came out. The results of that induced panic - and the whole shebang ended up in an ivory tower somewhere with a Cray supercomputer. The results were devastating. The super computer pronounced that it was physically impossible for the bee to fly. The honey bee had broken math and the laws of physics - because the little critter flew when science said it should not. Minds snapped and careers ended with gibbering, crazed ex-scientists trying to assimilate the impossible. Some snapped, and became irredeemable intellectual wrecks and liberals. Banished from the hallowed halls of academia, others ended up as gibbering, gobbling zealots of fringe cults like The Flat Earth Society.


I fear we may be headed down the same path, gentlemen. Those of you with fragile minds and egos had better turn away from what follows. Those of you that wish to follow this path to it's conclusion - you have been warned!:D


Consider the paper patched bullet. Some of the gun club duffers and stubfarts at my rod n' gun club say that the paper patch serves to contain the exploding pressure behind the bullet - and the pressure in turn drives the bullet forward. I've heard them say the same about the patched round balls favoured by our front-stuffing brethren in the muzzle loading forum. I know this to be false: with ultra slow motion photography, we see clouds of burning gases exit from the muzzle of a flintlock first - followed by the patched paper ball. And of course, as the ball follows its trajectory, the patch falls away. It is my conviction that Dr. Sam Fadala was right - the patch serves only to impart the spin from the rifling.


Moving forward from the muzzle loader to our BPCR guns … shouldn't the same apply? I've never used paper patched bullets myself but have seen others do it. When the gun fires, what comes out of the muzzle is the gases, the bullet, and confetti. To me, the paper patch has to be fully or partially immolated and incinerated during the firing process. How can mere burning paper in that state even serve to impart the spin of the rifling to the bullet? Is this possible?


Methinks not.


Unless somebody can convince me of the error of my logic, I will be forced to address our fellows of the BPCR persuasion with admonishment and reprimand. Pending logical evidence to the contrary I will have to insist that they cease and desist with their erroneous ways and repent - or be forever cast out and exiled from The Brotherhood Of The Boolit.

ahh yeah .......but nothing is so black and white as that ---first that joke study used to be about the bumble bee - maybe somebody changed the rules of late?
second --- the paper patch guys show us pictures all the time of shredded patches that are still white - almost as clean as when they went in the barrel - cant happen if there is gas blow by
three - I say same with ball guns (despite my respect for Sam Fadala) if you pickup shot roundball patches and they got a neat black soot mark bore size in the middle and the rest of the patch is still clean I say werent no gas leakage there - or very little anyways - have picked up lotsa patches like that - but would be real easy to load a flinter for the camera too - just big powder charge, slack ball and skinny patch = heaps of blow by + shredded patch + plus really cool demo picture - if ya burnin patches up (paper or cloth) ya didnt do it right an yr boolit/ball not gonna go where its sposed ta.

[1Hawkeye]

Ah yes the bumble bee theory as dis-proven by Mcdonald Douglas with the F4 Phantom jet. " Put a big enough engine in it and you can get anything to fly" and as for the paper patch bullets don't work I think there is a couple million dead buffalo's that will disagree to that theory as well.:lol:

[TaylorS]

I remember seeing something that you could paper patch a boolit to be accurate and leave no grove marks on the boolit leaving a untraceable round in your target. Never tried it but seems to be a reason overlooked


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[john.k]

The PP bullet still has groove marks,but none of the scrapes and cuts that bullets are identified by......but nowdays the cops can lift DNA from fired bullets,and identify powder and primer residue in microgrammes.......and the rifling specs may well identify the gun if its not common....When I was firing 45 cal PP bullets, An onlooker caught a flying patch in one piece,flattened it and read handwriting on the old schoolbook paper I used.....That one was easily identified.

[john.k]

Here s a little known fact.....just about all nitro explosives/propellants have microdots in them that can be identified from the residue,pinning down manufacturer and batch details.

[Texas by God]

There's lots of things that science can't explain.
And I'm fine with that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[country gent]

That was a part of the story in the movie shooter also. A bullet fired from his rifle was recovered PP and used to ssasinate a religious figure next to the president.

[Hossfly]

The U.S. Air Force has proved that if you put enough horse power behind a brick bat it will fly.

[ndnchf]

I'm not a competitive shooter, just a plinker. There are many folks far more knowledgable about paper patching than me. But with a little work, I found them to be very accurate in my Shiloh Sharps .40-2-1/4" rifle. I know there are many others that can shoot better than this. But iron sights and aging eyes limit my abilities.

[indian joe]

I'm not a competitive shooter, just a plinker. There are many folks far more knowledgable about paper patching than me. But with a little work, I found them to be very accurate in my Shiloh Sharps .40-2-1/4" rifle. I know there are many others that can shoot better than this. But iron sights and aging eyes limit my abilities.

hmmm just a plinker eh? some of the hotshots gonna get a surprise when ya decide ta get serious! :D I make that one 'bout inch and eighth x seven eighth OR SMALLER . There might be a few fellers shoot better than that - but there wont be big mobs of em.

[Don Purcell]

William Ellis Metford proved with his extensive testing that the heavy paper patched BORE size bullet expanded instantly upon firing to fill the grooves of the barrel. It was in a 2004 Double Gun Journal that Ross Seyfried wrote about using a Metford/Farquarsan single shot in .461 Gibbs No.2 cartridge and wrote about Metfords barrels and loading the paper patched .461. There is lot of old information that has had to be relearned from the old masters.

[ndnchf]

hmmm just a plinker eh? some of the hotshots gonna get a surprise when ya decide ta get serious! :D I make that one 'bout inch and eighth x seven eighth OR SMALLER . There might be a few fellers shoot better than that - but there wont be big mobs of em.

That's about the right group size Joe. I don't know if I could repeat it, my eyes are not what they used to be. The rifle is nothing special, just a standard #3 I bought new in 1990. It's a good rifle/cartridge combination that is plesant to shoot. But it shows that properly constructed paper patch bullets can shoot fairly well.

[yeahbub]

All boolits leak. Not much usually, and the most leakage is right when they are fired when pressures are at their peak. It's a matter of degree, and this accounts for the powder gasses that visibly exit the bore before the boolit does in high speed films. The seal is generally not perfect, but it holds up long enough for the short duration of the trip through the bore. Numerous times I have picked up strips of paper from the outer layer of the patch and large intact pieces from the inner layer and there was no evidence of scorching, clean, white, with the watermark still visible. If the PP boolit isn't large enough or doesn't obturate sufficiently to seal, there will be considerable blow-by which will act as a torch on paper or lead. In fact, there was a fellow at the range some years ago who had a jacketed bullet stuck in the barrel throat that did not seal and the resulting blow-by eroded the copper jacket and to a lesser extent, the barrel steel, leaving a hideous divot when viewed through the boroscope, so your surmise about damage can be correct when there's enough leakage to subject the exposed area to sufficient heat. A lot of fire went out through that spot. The specific heat of gasses is actually very low compared to other materials like metals, hence, to transfer enough heat for damage to occur, there has to be a lot of gas rushing past the spot in question. This is why the base of a boolit shows no evidence of melting, but the sides of an undersized boolit will show what looks like torch cutting on the portions which should have been sealed against the bottom of the rifling grooves.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That story began not with the honeybee, whose airworthiness has never been in doubt, but with either the European bumblebee (which looks fatter than those in these pictures, although it is mostly hair), or possibly the American academic bumblebee. To find misconception which attracts more sympathy online, we would normally have to talk politics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumblebee#Misconception_about_flight

Scientists find fact contradicting their calculations all the time. Standard procedure is to track down the incorrect data, the incorrect formula or the incorrect application of the formula. In this case the inconsistency seems to arise in the fact which aeromodellers know, that air has greater viscosity for a small object than a large, and that a stalling aerofoil produces the momentary vortex which makes a stalling aircraft turn upwards. The difference that the bumblebee can repeat that stall hundreds of times a minute, but the aeroplane only gets to stall once.

I do agree, however, that there is no just argument against paper patched bullets working exactly as planned. It forms the needed heat barrier, it produces the spin, if correctly done it allows the centre of mass to be centred on the bore axis, and if correctly done it detaches as planned. There is more?

[indian joe]

That's about the right group size Joe. I don't know if I could repeat it, my eyes are not what they used to be. The rifle is nothing special, just a standard #3 I bought new in 1990. It's a good rifle/cartridge combination that is plesant to shoot. But it shows that properly constructed paper patch bullets can shoot fairly well.

One plinker to another - 1876 Uberti 45-75 - 100yards - heavier Grease Groove boolits single loaded (this rifle keeps teasing me like this!!!)
The wide shot in both pics is first up cold after a clean, (4 shots each not five) LEE 500-3R with a little flat turned on the nose, and CBE 470 (their version of the Lyman 535 Postell with the base band and bottom lube groove turned off) - 70 grains FFg + juice box wad (top target is LEE bottom is CBE - had to come back to 100yards cuz I cuz I altered the staff on my tang sight and needed new settings worked out)
222666

222667

Am picking up my wads about 8 to 10 paces out front but they waaaaaay to tight from the looks - cutting with a 12mm wad punch - when loaded they cup towards the open mouth - picked up they are distinctly cupped the other way - towards the powder charge - make a new correct size punch this evening and will try some newsprint wads -- still convinced if I can wring the best out of this barrel it will be pretty darn impressive (for a lever gun) - the question then is, how do I convert that back to a load that will function through the magazine??? I enjoy shooting it so not gonna be a problem.

[ndnchf]

That's some mighty fine shooting Joe. The .45-75 is THE M1876 cartridge, and a fine one it is. I also have an Uberti M1876, but I'm fond of 50s, so mine is a .50-95. It's not as accurate as a .45-75, but its just as much fun to shoot. I haven't tried a PP bullet in it, but just for fun I might.

[indian joe]

That's some mighty fine shooting Joe. The .45-75 is THE M1876 cartridge, and a fine one it is. I also have an Uberti M1876, but I'm fond of 50s, so mine is a .50-95. It's not as accurate as a .45-75, but its just as much fun to shoot. I haven't tried a PP bullet in it, but just for fun I might.

Yeah that bottom target is kinda tantalising hey! I look at that and .....wonder can I do that again ?
Hangin out on this forum has been good for me - Its challenged some ideas that were turning into excuses for me.
Mid 1970's I bought a Model 70 winchester in 22/250, ten power redfield scope once I got it tuned up (free float barrel and decent handloads) I would expect to be able to put three at 100yards and on a good day cover it with our ten cent piece - about a three quarter inch centre group - If I went outside an inch centres I wanted to know why - about all I was capable of with a good scoped hunting rifle in those times though. Forty years later we sittin here lookin at targets (yours and mine) not as good - but not so far away either - our eysight stuffed, hair gone grey, knees ache, shootin a blackpowder gun with iron sights -- whats that thing they say about old age and sneaky ????? .....maybe does make up for a lot.
I wear 1.5x glasses to read the numbers on speed signs now, 3x for reading, two pair for fine work at the lathe - if we could get our good eyes back - we'd be downright dangerous!!!
All the best

[Ballistics in Scotland]

All boolits leak. Not much usually, and the most leakage is right when they are fired when pressures are at their peak. It's a matter of degree, and this accounts for the powder gasses that visibly exit the bore before the boolit does in high speed films. The seal is generally not perfect, but it holds up long enough for the short duration of the trip through the bore.

Yes, the seal is important. Metford achieved good obturation in a target discipline that didn't allow of cleaning between shots, although their number wasn't great, although his alloy was fairly hard. His patents didn't include the rounded rifling which was given his name, as it already existed, but most of his developments were aimed at improving the seal. They included shallower grooves with sloping edges, and it might be argued that gain twist rifling contributed to it. He said that Whitworth's hexagonal bore, although it worked, gave enough twisting force to spin a field-gun shell, and he achieved bullet stability with rifling half a thousandth of an inch deep, and with "rifling" made with coarse emery on a lead lap. Neither of these would last well under bore erosion, though, which with his heavy charges and heavy bullets was high by black powder standards.




If the PP boolit isn't large enough or doesn't obturate sufficiently to seal, there will be considerable blow-by which will act as a torch on paper or lead. In fact, there was a fellow at the range some years ago who had a jacketed bullet stuck in the barrel throat that did not seal and the resulting blow-by eroded the copper jacket and to a lesser extent, the barrel steel, leaving a hideous divot when viewed through the boroscope, so your surmise about damage can be correct when there's enough leakage to subject the exposed area to sufficient heat. A lot of fire went out through that spot. The specific heat of gasses is actually very low compared to other materials like metals, hence, to transfer enough heat for damage to occur, there has to be a lot of gas rushing past the spot in question. This is why the base of a boolit shows no evidence of melting, but the sides of an undersized boolit will show what looks like torch cutting on the portions which should have been sealed against the bottom of the rifling grooves.


Could that hideous divot be the beginnings of an obstruction bulge? You may well be right, though. That flame may act like a torch on lead, but there would be a subtle difference on paper, in that those grooves would be an oxygen-starved environment, in which the gases would cut rather than burn. Unless, like muzzle flash, it happens once out in atmospheric oxygen, which is too late to matter.

An interesting experiment is to get into a bath as hot as you can bear to sink slowly into. Make any fast movement and it will hurt, because that dispels the boundary layer of water adjacent to your sensitive spots, where it has been cooled by contact with your 98.4 degrees Fahrenheit. Gases up against the bullet base may have no movement at all, relative to that metal. But in loosely fitting grooves they do move, possibly much faster than the bullet. For a gas is a spring, and like the little spring which flies across the room from when you liberate it from inside your ballpoint pen, it is so light that it can accelerate very fast indeed.

That stream of gas in a part-filled groove may be due to melting, like gas-cutting by torch. But it can also be due to what is sometimes termed wire-drawing, the squashing of that ridge of bullet metal to approximately land diameter. I used to have some .308 solid-based boat-tails (excellent when used as intended, but very bad at upsetting) which were fired in a P14 Enfield, mostly much deformed because they tumbled. A few performed perfectly, but some had the metal in the grooves reduced and stripped, while others were pressed tightly against one side of the bore, with the odd effect that one side stripped the rifling and the other was deeply engraved.

When I dissected those bullets and measured the jacket thickness, it remained about the same all round their circumference. The parts engaging with the grooves weren't gas-cut, but pressed down by pressure.

[ndnchf]

You got that right Joe. I get great satisfaction from bringing old rifles (and new rifles of old design) back to life. I've been fortunate to wring pretty good accuracy out of some old oddballs. A model 1871 Springfield Spencer 2 band rifle, an 1877 Evans repeating rifle, a #1 Remington rolling block in .58 Roberts, and other smaller rolling blocks by making reloadable .32 rimfire cases. Its all great therapy for the soul.